Toren (post-EW discussion)

ap - thanks for the post. btw, why do we have a 6 month reprieve from EW?

nevermind, i saw his post...

ap307 "Now that we have a 6 month reprieve from Eddie Wilson"

What happened to him?

ap307, are you worried about loosing your view at the Toren? 01 line gets obscured by that awful Avalon and Cat's, only view left is Williamsburg.

No, as I said, my view is over the projects. When the tower is built, it will reduce my view of Williamsburg, but I'll still be able to see the river, bridge and Manhattan.

EddieWilsondcostevejhx is so clever

dco
about 9 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse ap307 "Now that we have a 6 month reprieve from Eddie Wilson"

What happened to him?

If a view is of major importance to you, this is not the place to buy - you're better off in Oro in that case. You're going to be blocked in every direction but south down Flatbush into Brooklyn (although less directly blocked to the West than to the North and East).

As long as you have open exposures, you should be fine - this building has many other things going for it that make views less critical.

for view north there is going to be avalon rental building and on the east side 400ft ht condo is coming too!

BrooklynLove, couldn't agree more. But when we went up to our apartment, we could definitely see the Williamsburg bridge and Manhattan, looking over the newly built community center and the projects. It was unexpected, and to see the view you must be standing a few feet from the windows, but it is a nice bonus in any case. At least I won't have to go far to watch the fireworks on the 4th of July...

Sure- there'll be some nice peaks here and there, I'm just trying to say that view shouldn't be the primary catch for someone buying into this building or else that person is setting himself/herself for disappointment - assuming he/she plans on staying put for more than 3 years that is.

In other news, development is poppin off in a big way a few blocks over west of flatbush - bridge cleaners just moved, and the adjacent card store is either out or about to be out, which means the entire development site that will house the H&M is ready to get on with the demo. yep yep.

How far do you have to be up in the 01 line to consider yourself of having a good view?

I don't expect much view will be left after all developments around it is completed. I think Toran is over priced for what it has to offer in term of views.

i agree with mandy! and for the view 01 across street there is going to avalon 400ft and toward north oro2 38th story in on the way!
no view

ok, so overpriced compared to what? please show me an example of a properly priced comp. or is everything overpriced?

Since when did Brooklyn have views? Unless you're facing river or a park you're renting a view at best. Hanson Place's views will be obstructed at some point. Welcome to New York. Pleased to meet you.

Same goes for Manhattan and every other borough. Why do you think Central Park views are worth so much? What happened to the views of the people on West End in the 60' when Trump built his condos between them and the West Side Highway? And, by the way, the subway here runs 24 hours a day! Enjoy our fair city and all it has to offer.

The only thing between Toren and the waterfront, along the axis which there are views from my apartment, is the BQE and projects. The view won't be going away anytime soon...

Toren tops off. What nice views.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/08/closing_bell_to.php#comments

That view (I'm almost sure) isn't from the top floor but the 31st floor. The view from the 33rd shows more of the East River and the 37th floor will even be better. The 31st floor is the highest floor that has been cemented and safe to walk.

What kind of views will the Flatbush side of the building have?

BKindaHouse,
All the office buildings of downtown brooklyn across the street.

decent amount of towers are going to sprout up over the next few years between adams, flatbush, tillary and willoughby. this will erode the view to lower manhattan over flatbush somewhat.

Are the current listed prices seriously not negotiable. there are listings in the same line on HIGHER floors that are in contract for lower prices than currently listed. This is not a great neighborhood and based on the inability of the dev to tell us when the apts will really be available and based on the declining market, how can they not negotiate at all. Who wants to pay $800+ per square foot when someone in the same apt higher up paid less than $750/sq foot. it just seems like a bad investment in that case.

Hi Cheetah,

Those of us who bought early are now being rewarded for having the foresight and imagination to see what this area will be in a relatively short period of time. I am one of those buyers who is observing, with great glee, that prices for apartments with exactly the same layout in the same line are selling for more money even though they are on lower floors. There is no question that my apartment has appreciated while I sit around waiting for it to become available.

This is not by accident. Anyone who did a minimum of research about BFC Partners and the fine architectural touch of Roger Duffy from Skidmore, Owen and Merrill felt confident that they made an excellent investment. The principals in the project were strong and the renderings, finishes and amenities were all top shelf. Now that the development is beginning to take shape (curtain wall going up) the realization of all are expectations are coming to fruition.

Your comment about this not being a great neighborhood is very very shortsighted. For a very cursory idea of what is to come in a very short period of time just go to http://www.dbpartnership.org/. Just looking at the renderings of what some of our next door neighbors will look like , Avalon Bay Luxury Rentals http://www.mossgilday.com/projects/goldstreet.html and City Point, which will be the tallest building in all of Brooklyn, http://www.citypointnyc.com/ it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that the future is very bright. Add to this the Willoughby Square Park next to City Point and the Sheraton, Indigo Bay, Loft hotels, plus major condo developments on Bridge Street and another on Lawrence, plus 80 Dekalb, plus Lazerian's development off Tillary, plus BAM's development, plus Barclays Stadium in 2011 housing the Nets, plus Catman's development behind the Toren and much more and you can see why we are excited.

As far as the developer being able to provide a definite date for certification, it is way early. Anyway buying should have the intelligence to hope for end of April but plan for June and not be depressed if later. You purchase in a new development with all contingencies in place otherwise you are foolish. No new development can guarantee a closing date due to a multitude of things that can happen.

Your reference to a declining market is true for most but not for all. There are always exceptions for an iconoclastic building like the Toren. Have you ever seen a building like the Toren? I haven't and walk NYC all the time. The closest I came to one was 101 Warren in Tribeca and it is selling for $1600 psf. (also built by SOM)

How can they not negotiate? Why would they? Demand is strong for the Troen. 50% sold in 5 months in the worse real estate market in recent history and you think they should negotiate down? All these sales were done prior to the "curtain wall" being built. I'm absolutely positive that prices will continue rising. Once the real estate market rebounds, those of us who have happily watched our apartments appreciate at a steady pace in bad times, will be ecstatic at our prescient abilities.

Cheetah, you make it sound like upward price momentum is a bad thing? It's not. I predict that over the next 5 years you will be kicking yourself over not buying at the current prevailing price. I must admit, I didn't expect the price increases this early but was positive that the future was a can't miss.

Finally, let me add that I am a koolaid drinking Torenian and have no regrets for my over the top enthusiasm. I studied this building and area over many hours and feel great that my decision is apparently being rewarded. Everyone likes their hard work validated.

May I add that the Toren just won some awards. (thanks aj307) Price increases are justified and frankly, I still think prices are extremely reasonable if you look at what the competition is asking for similar square footage.

http://www.nydailynews.com/real_estate/2008/09/04/2008-09-04_the_closer_toren_and_scarpetta.html

Here is a video that explains further the criteria for judging the winners. Congrats BFC Partners and Skidmore, Owens and Merrill (SOM) for a job well done.

http://www.propertyawards.net/am/awardsmovie.html

I just like the area around the Edge condos better and as of right now the area around the Toren isn't great. Also, with Citypoint and others going up (Avalon) it seems that the views are being destroyed, esp on lower floors. I agree that it is possible for prices to go up in certain developments even in a generally declining market but I don't think that it is justified, for eg, to charge $70,000 more for the SAME APT two floors down in the same line, esp given that the more expensive line was listed just two weeks after the other. No wonder it still hasn't sold and the other one has. There just seems no logical reason why, in two weeks (ie back in early april) the $/square foot value would increase that much to justify and 70k higher price in the same line two floors down. If buyers are doing diligence and see that, I think eventually Toren will have to lower the asking a bit more in line with apts on higher floors.

This is not as developed an area as Cobble Hill, Park Slope and others. For that matter it is not as developed as most neighborhoods in Manhattan (I live in the East Village and am looking there and on the UES).

I think if you bought at below $800/square foot that is likely a good investment.I just don't know if I think this place, even on higher floors, is worth the same as lower floors in Manhattan or equiv apts in other area of Brooklyn, ie Cobble Hill, Boerum Hill, Park Slope, Prospect Heights and even Williamsburgh near the Bedford L stop.

I think you should be excited about your investment! Thats great. I think yoiu likely paid a more reasonable price.

Cheers

Cheetah

i think the point is that the apts i am talking about weren't really listed later but just on at higher price on lower floors anmd those units have not sold. The only listing that went up in price is that huge apt listed above the magic $1 m mark...magic for this area and for a brooklyn condo mind you. Obviously in Manhattan that is so very average (alas hence me looking in Brooklyn).

Cheetah,

Are you saying that there are apartments on lower floors that have been on the market for a period of time and aren't selling? I don't see it. I know for a fact that just about every studio and one bedroom line has gone up in "asking price" since the opening of sales in April, and all have sold at higher prices. Looking at the active listing, there are no stale items on the list. The oldest apartment I saw was 7/30/2008.

With respect to some of the 2 bedroom units, yes they are moving at a slower pace probably due to jumbo loan status and a smaller pool of potential purchasers at this time in our economy. I also know that the Toren strategy was to market the lower portion of the building first and start releasing higher floors at a later date. Why they decided to do this is beyond my pay grade but I trust they have a logical explanation.

Lastly, I can easily understand you wanting to live in North end of Williamsburg. (The Edge) Great area. Fact is, you got it right by selecting Brooklyn over Manhattan. The impetus may have been price points but I would bet my apartment on the fact that you will love the neighborhood feel of Brownstone Brooklyn which has been lost in Manhattan. I grew up on the upper West Side and that neighborhood has been sterilzed from what it was in the old days. Waxing poetic here. Take care Cheetah and have fun searching. You couldn't ask for a better condo buying environment. Have you seen the Star Tower in LIC? I love the idea of a rooftop pool. Plus if you get a chance, check out Richard Meier On Prospect Park after a relaxing trip to Brooklyn Botanical. A little pretentious but a very nice building.

Take care
Karl

> I think if you bought at below $800/square foot [in brooklyn] that is likely a good investment.

I guess there is one of those quotes to write down. Lets see if that is funny or not in 2-3 years...

Brooklyn is just getting seriously interesting. There are too many new developments in Brooklyn, and real tall buildings that have more than 100+ units. Here's what's on the downtown area alone:

Toren
Oro
Forte
BellTel

And meet the new competition be@schermerhorn -> http://www.beatschermerhorn.com/

What are the chances Toren's prices will come down at some point? Especially with those units in the higher floors that are not even being released yet.

I would not recommend buying with the hopes of selling and making real money in 2-3 years. I think Junkman has indicated that he is in to hold for at least 5 years and likely will live there for a while. I am not saying that I think 800/sq foot is great but since he got (possibly) substantially below that in a building like the Toren it is likely a good deal as compared with what they are trying to charge now ($850+ per square). That said I am seriously considering paying around that in the Williamsburg area (the area Junkman alluded to) because I like the proximity to the East Village and I like the neighborhood feel.

The neighborhood feel in Williamsburg? Around the warehouses and decrepit buildings? With one subway line? With overly crowded and noisy streets? I'm sorry, but I think Williamsburg is overhyped. It's a cool place to visit and hangout but I don't think it's a cool place to live. Just my opinion though.

Williamsburg is also not a very safe place to be.

http://ny.metro.us/metro/local/article/A_spike_in_crime_has_Williamsburg_wary/13499.html

Cleanslate,

You ain't seen nothing yet. Remember to add Avalon Bay Luxury rentals next door (44 Floors) , City Point mixed use with rentals (67 floors), plus condo's that are actively being built with foundation in and building upward, for example,

80 Dekalb (34 floors 360+ units),
http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/05/development_wat_232.php

235 Gold which is being built at a quick pace (133-unit, 13-story building), http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/03/development_wat_197.php

111 Lawrence Street being built (potentially 51 floors)

384-394 Bridge (49 floors)
http://www.brooklyneagle.com/categories/category.php?category_id=5&id=20643

Plus Oro 2 (Hilton's), Catman's Ashland project being built with possibly 3 more to follow, plus Flatiron on Tillary, plus Hampton Inn across the street and more.

What do they say, build them and they will come. Cleanslate, you are convinced that this will hurt the Toren's prices. In the short term you may be correct due to a glut (though I disagree) but long term, having these tall skyscrapers will attract tons of buyers over the years due to an improved neighborhood and tremendous concentration of wealth. A Battery Park effect is how I look at it. We live in exciting times and I'm betting on the Toren to really excel long term. (10 Years)

Wouldn't it be more like the Roosevelt City or Long Island City effect?

"The neighborhood feel in Williamsburg? Around the warehouses and decrepit buildings? With one subway line? With overly crowded and noisy streets? I'm sorry, but I think Williamsburg is overhyped. It's a cool place to visit and hangout but I don't think it's a cool place to live. Just my opinion though."

This isn't really the case anymore. Most of what's west of Driggs and between, say Metropolitan and North 12th is much, much nicer than it was even 3 years ago. Some spots I would even call charming (if you liked the converted warehouse-like feel of old Tribeca/Soho anyway), and only Bedford is really noisy. But I'll fully agree it's not for everyone.

"Williamsburg is also not a very safe place to be."

This is just wrong - one gang incident on the Southside (never great to begin with, and quite different from the Northside) does not an unsafe neighborhood make. I used to live on 78th and Madison and feel just as safe in the area I described above.

Williamsburg is overcrowded...and that's not good with pretty much having one viable subway line. I dunno, we've driven there a few times around Northside Piers, etc and some areas still look abandoned, like Greenpoint which has a lot of decrepit building. I kinda don't get it, it's definitely not Park Slope or Brooklyn Heights. And the real neigborhood is actually in Bedford, which is quite noisy and overcrowded.

Overtime, Junkman, I'd think you'll profit. I'm just talking about short-term like next year when Toren will be pressured to get the building sold out and there's going to be a lot of competition. The problem is if the other buildings like Oro and Forte start to bring down their prices and I think it's bound to happen, and I don't see why Toren will not level with the market price. BTW, I think be@schermerhorn has the same developers as the One Prospect Park? Not too sure though, but that building seems to be in a better area.

the apts at beschermerhorn are about $50-100 more per square foot because they are in a slightly m,otre established area. my fiancee really likes the nicer areas of boerum hill and we both really like cobble hill. i really like Williamsburg but she is not as into it.

I went to the sales office of the Toren yesterday and will report more info later but we decided not to make an offer because we think the price is too high now (at the higher per/sq price) based on the area.

We think that they are overshooting although we LOVE the materials used in the bathroom and kitchen and we actually went into the building with hard hats and boots. Flatbush is loud and active. the area is not built up at all (now) and one would have to walk ten minutes to reach many conveniences. We just did not think it was worth the prce. Under $800/sq foot yes. above--no.

Just our opinion but we think it is a fantastic building.

cheetah,

One of the reasons I am buying in the Toren is that it is a pre established area. Discounts are made by purchasing in pre-established areas in pre-constructed buildings.

The advantage of purchasing at the Toren location is that although pre-established, we all know what the area will look like in a few short years. It is not guesswork. As you obviously are well aware, people are gravitating to Downtown Brooklyn and the Brownstone area. This area is far from maturity and Downtown Brooklyn will have a particular niche, that being a mini Manhattan with its tall high condos and business buildings. Surrounding all these skyscrapers will be brownstone Brooklyn. Best of both worlds plus easy access from subway and Manhattan Bridge. Luxury comforts of a new luxury condo but in the middle of old style brownstone architecture. City Point and the Washington Square Park will be completed by 2011. Also, I just read that Ratner got the financing for Barclays Center down the road on Flatbush.

"Goldman Sachs is close to launching an $800 million bond issue for the Barclays Center, says Project Finance magazine. Quoting ”sources close to the financing”, the magazine reports Goldman is in the process of having the bonds rated, and expects financing to be in place by the end of November 2008. The new arena will be part of Atlantic Yards. The Nets say they intend to break ground on the arena in November."

All the buildings being built in the immediate area will come with abundant quality retail. City Point alone has 500,000 square feet of retail space.

http://www.washsquare.com/flyers/myrtle/myrtle.pdf

Toren will have excellent retail space below (see attached)

http://www.washsquare.com/flyers/myrtle/myrtle.pdf

Add to this Avalon Bay retail space. We all know that Avalon Bay's Chrystie Place complex in Manhattan has a Whole Foods on its bottom floor.

Cheetah, as I mentioned earlier, it doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to see what this area will look like in a short period of time. The great investors of our time have great vision. If looking for an investment that ain't such a bad place to live while waiting, I still say the Toren is your best bet. By the way, I see some very nice 2 bedrooms at $750 psf plus a one bedroom's for $695psf and $750 psf.

Why are you saying they are all over $800?

Messed up the City Point 500,000 square feet retail link, here it is:

The plan is for 900,000 square feet of rental apartments, 500,000 square feet of retail and 125,000 square feet of Class A office space.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/01/more_details_on_1.php

Thank you for the info. We were looking at higher floors. We are still considering the Toren but looking at several other buildings/neighborhoods.

"The plan is for 900,000 square feet of rental apartments, 500,000 square feet of retail and 125,000 square feet of Class A office space."

What are the odds it actually gets built?

nyc10022,

I get a kick out of your pessimism on both here and Brownstoner on Broklkyn development. Time will tell. There are some projects that I am dubious of them coming to fruition anytime soon, for example, Oro II, Flatiron on Tillary, Hampton Inn on Tillary, Catman's buildings, Indigo Hotel at VIM location to name a few, but City Point is a definite. There are multiple premier developers working on this project and they all are extremely comfortable with the 2010 completion date at this time from what I have read.

If you go to the actual site (old Albee Square Mall) you will see active demolition. Their progress is very good to date. Bank on it, City Point is happening.

Take care,
Karl

> If you go to the actual site (old Albee Square Mall) you will see active demolition.

Wasn't there "active demolition" at Atlantic Yards as well?

nyc10022,

Have you read about any lawsuits against the City Point Development? I don't think so. Ratner was building a mini-city which displaced many individuals with use of eminent domain. City Point is a block (a large block at that) that is almost totally cleared of debris. Methinks you are comparing apples and oranges. Also, while Ratner had problems getting an anchor tenant for the then Miss Brooklyn, City Point has already signed Target among others.

"Target has already signed a deal to open a store at City Point, sources who are familiar with the project said. The soaring tower, slated to be built where Albee Square Mall stands, will include residential, retail and office space.
"The deal was inked a couple of weeks ago," said a source familiar with the City Point project. "It's going to happen."
The newest Target, which is not expected to open until 2011 after construction is completed at the 132,000-square-foot City Point building, will stand less than a mile from the wildly successful Target at Atlantic Terminal Mall.

Albee Square will be replaced by City Point, a five-story open-air mall with 500,000 square feet of retail space.

P/a Associates has lined up tenants for about one-third of City Point's retail space and is in negotiations to lease another third. construction is expected to start later this year.

The AY delays aren't because of lawsuits, they're because of funding/credit markets.

I've just lived in this town to know that just because they say they're building something doesn't mean they will. A lot of folks don't get that because they only know the past few years.

But, for those who knows history, down years - hell, "normal" years - generally mean announced projects are more likely to not happen than happen. Demolition don't mean much. Hell, there was an empty foundation at 60th & lex for YEARS (now bloomberg building). I think folks are going to be shocked when they see how things work outside of boom years.

For those interested, some recent pictures of ongoing construction:

http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?p=251787#post251787

nyc10022 - you don't know what you're talking about.

wow, great comeback.

BTW, you clearly missed where I was shown to be absolutely correct.... City Point construction was halted.

nyc10022 gave you a great example. how do yo argue with that? I'll give you another. the empty lot that was behind the Mayfair Hotel; now home to 15CPW was empty for over 35, read that again, 35 years. lawsuits, family estate matters, tax liens. Funny how they can slow things down in good market. In a slow market they're positively deadly.

> how do yo argue with that?

Because you really, really want it to be wrong.
;-)

I'm not saying that we're going back to the 70s or anything, but folks who have only been here 5-10-15 years really don't get what a recession looks like in NYC.

amen nyc10022

was replying to this wizard - "The AY delays aren't because of lawsuits, they're because of funding/credit markets." btw why are you so impressed with yourself?

that wasn't a reply, that was an attempt at a 3rd grade comeback.

"you don't know what you're talking about."

Anybody making those sorts of posts shouldn't be complaining about others...

NYC10022--do you have a reference or a cite for your comment that citypoint construction has been halted?

nyc10022 - what doesn't compute for you? your comment re AY is entirely ignorant. your statement makes that entirely clear. get over yourself.

> NYC10022--do you have a reference or a cite for your comment that citypoint construction has been
> halted?

Documented in another thread by one of its supporters, junkman, who lives across the street.

> your comment re AY is entirely ignorant. your statement makes that
> entirely clear. get over yourself.

BL, WOW, even better comebacks. If you don't have anything other than insults, no need to post. I'll just be hitting the ignore button.

Now, if you can actually pull out a fact or a data point, instead of acting like a child....

here is the work stoppage thread...

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/5498-city-point-on-flatbush-has-halted-work

Brownstoner has been slow to find out reason for work stoppage.

BrooklynLove, you have super cred with Brownstoner. Can you request info from Brownstoner tips link? They blew me off. This is a very important part of the Downtown Brooklyn Renaissance and I can't seem to get an answer to why they stopped working, going on more than 2 weeks now. Good news is that Avalon Bay is kicking butt and plan on completion in April May of 2009.

you can read about citypoint at the wirednewyork site.

Thanks.

Apparently, Brownstoner didn't entirely blow me off. They just took a little more time to get an answer.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/11/new_building_pl.php

Then Brooklyn Eagle responded to Brownstoner:

http://www.brooklyneagle.com/categories/category.php?category_id=5&id=24521

I feel much better now about City Point.. This news plus watching my Nets play super basketball makes me optimistic that Barclay Center will get built.

BrooklynLove,

Thanks for the wired tip.

I like this statement that I clipped from Wired.

An acadia realty trust earnings call recently had the following to say aobut the project -- mentions delay, not downsizing:

"As I mentioned earlier on the call, the debt markets for construction financing are highly illiquid, especially for loans over $50 million or so. In our pipeline, the one development that clearly falls into this category is City Point in Downtown Brooklyn and even in this case there maybe counterbalancing benefits with potential reductions in cost of construction, offsetting the cost of delay or increased capital costs. In fact, a 5% decline in construction costs should fully offset a one-year delay in the project assuming our current carrying costs.

Furthermore, it's very possible; in fact, it's likely that costs savings could be well in excess of 5%. But this might be offset by increased debt cost or potentially weakening fundamentals, nevertheless given the unique location, the fact that we have Target as our retail anchor and strong interest from other retailers, we wouldn't be surprised that our patience and persistence could be well rewarded in City Point."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1050...script?page=-1

How much are the one-bedroom and two-bedroom units in Toren now? Are they doing the same thing as One Brooklyn Bridge? One Brooklyn Bridge says they're not lowering prices in the papers but they leave a message personally that they are negotiable and they will pay for closing costs. Also, for the units that are facing BQE, you can definitely hear the traffic noise.

Hey Mr. Clean,

Still looking for your dream condo/coop I presume.

Got to admit, I wish I would have waited to purchase. It seems like ages ago that I was over exuberant about the Toren. Fact is, I love it more now that ever after seeing the curtain wall go higher and higher. Unfortunately, my portfolio has taken a major hit and I'm not sure I can afford it any longer. I may have to forfeit my 10%.

Toren is holding steady on prices to date without closing cost concessions but I would think that if things don't improve in the next few months, they will use some gimmicks to bring in perspective purchasers. You know, rent with option to buy, paying lawyer fees, among tons of other concessions. I drop by the sales office daily and traffic is very slow. Fortunately they are 52% in contract but who knows how many of these contracts will translate into sales. Between individuals like myself you are going broke, those who will be denied a mortgage and even those that may lose their jobs, times are difficult.

Unlike Be@Schermerhorn, Oro, and One Hansen and others, Toren will only reduce prices after exhausting all other measures. If prices decrease then I'll know that the shi..... has really hit the fan.

Did you check out the sales office for 20 Henry? Not bad though their prices are totally out of whack. Over $1000 per square foot for an apartment facing Popular with the Brooklyn Bridge constant buzz from traffic on the metal span of bridge.

It is amazing how much the real estate environment has changed in six short months. Though I anticipated it, this is going to be worse than I originally thought.

By the way, did you notice that may original explanation for City Point suspension turned out to be correct, a redrawing of plans for DOB. Being delayed is a hell of a lot better than the alternative.

Mr. Clean, provided your income is secure, this must be fantastic watching prices come down daily with future prices looking to get even better. Something tells me you are going to get a good deal with patience and your increased real estate acumen.

Take care.
Karl

how is this post EW (Eddie Wilson) if EW is also nyc10022 who is also posting here?

>Toren is holding steady on prices to date without closing cost concessions

Junkman, are you certain about this? If not, do double check with them. I recently toured there and thought the rep said they were willing to cover closing costs and would convey any reasonable offers to the sponsor...but I also toured at Be@Schermerhorn on the same day, so I may be mixing them up--but I am pretty sure it was Toren. Maybe they aren't telling the people who are already in contract but are "secretly" telling the new prospective buyers? Or, maybe it depends on the price range?

And, yes, I do agree that the sales office at Toren is absolutely DEAD, especially compared to Schermerhorn.

Hey Junkman, sorry about your situation. That seems rough. I think if you get your unit at $500K, I think it's still good considering how much expensive they are selling the units. I don't think they have come down but maybe they are trying to negotiate on other things like closing costs.

We passed by 20 Henry Street this weekend but did not go to their open house. The building is a total mess right now but they're starting construction. Their prices are astronomical and unrealistic and I heard there are no concession with the prices either. Unfortunately, if you look at StreetEasy, you'll find that they bought the building for around $20 million and I don't know how many units they have. It cannot be more than 40. I don't know if it is really in the prime area of Brooklyn Heights, it's kind of in a fringe.

We kinda found a unit we like. I don't know how much concession we'll get but if it does not work out, then we're fine waiting a few more months and keep house hunting.

Do you know the Brooklyn Detention Center on Atlantic Ave? What are the chances that will open back up? We're kinda interested on what will happen to the prices for 75 Smith next year but we're a little concerned about that detention center opening back up.

I'm at the Toren sales office at least once a week. I'll sit there and chew the fat and I am positive that they are committed to current list prices.

Of course, if things don't pick up they will be making concessions, like any other reasonable real estate developer, but I'm positive that no price concessions or even closing concessions are in current operation.

Now Be@Schermerhorn is a whole different kettle of fish. Two weeks ago I went to both Be@S and One Hansen and price concessions and willingness to negotiate was made perfectly clear to me. Both are experiencing decreases in prices and this is shown clearly via StreetEasy. When you see a negative arrow for a price reduction in the Toren, please let me know if I somehow missed it.

Toren just hasn't reached that point at this present time, though if traffic doesn't pick up, all bets are off the table.

Yeah, be@schermerhorn not sure if anyone has signed there yet. I did not like that they do not have washer/dryer in the unit. I really find that very inconvenient. One Hanson, on the other hand, they can make all concessions and negotiations they want, I think they are left with few units to sell and they have already got rid enough of the units at very high prices.

Mr. Clean, are you making fun?

The Brooklyn House of Detention just reopened today. (see attached link)

http://www.ny1.com/content/news_beats/law_enforcement/89034/controversial-brooklyn-correctional-facility-reopens/Default.aspx

Got to admit this shocked me. The surrounding neighborhood has really upgraded itself and I never thought they would reopen considering the strong community opposition to it.

It is crazy having a rather wealthy surrounding community with a prison right in the middle. I'm sure the Nu Hotel is pleased.

http://www.nuhotelbrooklyn.com/

What? I had no idea! I have been researching it for a week now and it always said that people are protesting, etc. There was a mention that it might expand, but there was no mention that it's being re-opened now.

junkman - toren is nice but if you think that people aren't going to be signing contracts below ask going forward you're out of your mind.

BrooklynLove,

I agree that prices will come down which is why I mentioned to cleanslate that I wish I had waited before purchasing my unit at the Toren. I would love to have that cash in my pocket so I could take advantage of forthcoming price decreases across the board regardless of new condo development. Richard Meier's "On Prospect Park" is having problems selling and they, like everyone else, will come down in price. No one will escape this downtrend. I may not be the brightest bulb on the tree but even I am cognizant of the current economic environment. I think I have a grasp on what massive unemployment in NYC will create. Today's announcement of Citigroup and Morgan/Chase layoffs is devastating to the NYC economy.

I was just providing current status of Toren management not my personal opinion. Prices may come down if concessions with closing costs doesn't do the trick. My personal opinion is that they are very reluctant to lower prices at the present time. Can they afford to wait it out with 52% of its apartments in contract? Perhaps. I just don't know the answer to that question. They might feel that the building will not be ready for occupancy until September of 09' and will hope by that time the recession is nearing an end.

All the other developments we have mentioned are in current operation, including the Oro, and they obviously have a gun to their head. The Toren is months away from that status so maybe they can wait it out a bit. Again, I'm not party of their strategy sessions.

FWIW, they have sold a unit or two over the last few weeks so maybe they have a chance to stick it out with closing costs concessions in their arsenal if sales stop totally. Once curtain wall is complete and amenities are in place, traffic will probably increase. You may be surprised how a gorgeous pool, library, landscaped outdoor space etc. can affect selling power. Personally, I still think their prices are reasonable at this moment in time.

I know most think the rendering of Avalon Bay is horrendous but once completed, this may add value to the immediate surroundings. The outdoor landscaping of Avalon Bay looked pretty decent the last rendering I saw.

Lastly, many of the purchasers of the Toren have been Chinese and possibly they have more purchasing power than other target sale groups. Don't know the answer to that question.

> I agree that prices will come down which is why I mentioned to cleanslate that I wish I had waited
> before purchasing my unit at the Toren.

Wow, end of an era.

I feel for you, Junkman.

It really is an end of an era.

I was searching on Curbed for more news. Didn't find anything, but there does seem to be a thread on curbed where Junkman is outed as a broker.

Did I just get suckered? Is this part of the shill? (nothing surprises me once 110 livingston tried that scam).

http://curbed.com/archives/2008/10/27/construction_watch_toren_halfskinned_bulking_up.php?page=3

Holy cow,

An Eddie Wilson sighting. (nyc10022) Only EW could be this vindictive.

I believe your evidence of me being a broker shill was when I said " I wish I could afford to live there" referring to the Toren.

Let me repeat it again, I WISH I CAN AFFORD TO LIVE THERE.

Look at my post earlier in this thread where I say it again:

"Unfortunately, my portfolio has taken a major hit and I'm not sure I can afford it any longer. I may have to forfeit my 10%."

Fact is, if I was told to go to close today, I couldn't afford it.

Eddie, you are obnoxious and your amateur sleuthing is boring.

If it was just me you were insulting, it wouldn't bother me but suggesting that the Toren is part of a scam is sad. Get a life.

Hey Junkman,

You actually forfeited your deposit? Sorry about that.

Can the closing be re-scheduled, BTW? Would like to know if closing is flexible. If I have a vacation for two weeks at the time the closing may happen, can you ask that the closing be another date?

No didn't forfeit my deposit yet.

Fortunately, Toren won't be closing for some time yet. Hopefully in Sept. or October of next year as opposed to projected May-June completion date. I need some time for economy to improve and hopefully the stock market to react accordingly.

Technically I could swing it but I'm very conservative financially and want more than adequate reserves before taking the plunge. Prior to this downturn, I had more than enough but Citigroup's total decimation in stock price killed me. I use to work there many years ago and had a soft spot for it and paid for my sentimentality. Have sold it since but paid for it dearly.

The fact that I live in a rent stabilized apartment in the Heights makes walking away from my deposit of $65.4K not catastrophic. I'm very happy living down the block from 20 Henry. Fact is, I had the money for this deposit in a fund called Artio International BJBIX and it is down 47% ytd. So, to make myself feel better, I'm not forfeiting $65.4K but $34.8K (money that would have been left) at today's current price. To further soothe my psyche, I put more money in cash for projected mortgage down payment that normally would have been in the market and consequently saved a ton since the funds this money was in took major loses also. All told, I'm ahead by deciding to purchase even if I do forfeit my deposit.

Probably more than you wanted to know. Take care.

Sorry, my mistake I read it wrong. But, as for the insinuation, I didn't write anything in that thread, just pointed at it.

If its all true, I do feel for you Junkman. Honestly.

I just wasn't sure if I had been suckered in feeling that.

hedge with SKF if your employer is a bank.

double-short financials. Interesting... but maybe a little late?

Hindsight is 20/20

never too late for a hedge - mkt can't go both ways at the same time

> never too late for a hedge

Absolutely wrong.

When a security hits 0, its way too late to hedge.

silly comment. if C goes to zero, where do you think SKF goes? C hits 0 then close out the SKF position. just another clueless comment from you - now you moved on from real estate to stocks.

by the way, in the 2 days since my post - C down about 30%, SKF up about 25%

Anyone buying here?

"silly comment. if C goes to zero, where do you think SKF goes? C hits 0 then close out the SKF position. just another clueless comment from you - now you moved on from real estate to stocks."

Its always the folks calling others "clueless" that are the most clueless of all.

If something has already declined to 0, it is simply too late to hedge. You can't lose any more than your 100%....

You "example" shows you didn't read. C is already at 0...

ok but then your comment was irrelevant so maybe i was reading between the lines a bit.

Any sign that CityPoint has started up again?

Creature,

I went by CitiPoint yesterday and there was no activity. This was after my source told me that they planned construction in january.

Logically, why would any bank provide financing at this point in time. The entire economy is contracting drastically. I'm as big a cheerleader for this area as the next guy but the last thing this area needs is more condos and large retail space.

I hope I'm wrong and they start building next week but it would obviously be a stupid business decision if they did.

Thanks for the info, Junkman. I'm a Toren purchaser (and, like you, I signed my contract before September and the big crash). I've been reading all the boards and blogs (BrooklynLove, you're everywhere!) and I was looking to CitiPoint as a bellwether for the area. While I'm still OK financially to move forward, I do worry about a loss in value. So far it seems like prices are holding and that Toren started at a realistic price point, but it's going to be hard keeping them where they are.

Creature,

Didn't see you name as member of Toren Yahoo Group. If not here is the link to join.

http://groups.google.com/group/toren?hl=en

Maybe the city is actually going forward on Willoughby Square Park, to
my surprise. Obama is ready to add stimulus to "shovel ready"
projects and maybe this will qualify even if it isn't shovel ready but
demolition ready.
This park along with CitiPoint are crucial for this area's
development.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/01/two_big_buys_...

Also, remember that Avalon Bay is picking up parcels along Bridge Street.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/01/more_evidence...

Here are links again. Initial link didn't work.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/01/two_big_buys_do.php

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/01/more_evidence_t.php

Thanks for the links, Junkman. Willoughby Square Park is key and that's very good news.

And, I'm not a member of the Toren Yahoo Group. I'll check it out.

Citypoint will start with the retail component. Even with the down cycle the Fulton Mall retail scene is a cash cow. Don't let the trolls distract you from this downtown bk renaissance. There will be more booms and more buyers again, and more busts. Use your judgment and stay the course and you'll benefit. The sheep will continue to give their professional advice and chase flocks.

Junkman - what is up with this selling smith barney crap? i'm really scared to see citi's q4 numbers.

there are several construction sites in downtown that continue to build/rise, surprisingly. Toren, avalon, a couple bldgs aeound the belltel area, the sheraton hotel is making slow but steady progress.

Hey Junkman, I finally went to see 20 Henry Street's sales office a few weeks ago (after stopping by at an open house in 111 Hicks St) and the mood is GRIM. The lady just looked a bit defeated, she did not not even look like she's excited about the building. She had the gall to suggest though that we should consider buying one of their one-bedroom and then rent for a bit while we wait for them to finish the building. She might as well suggested we burn our money. :)

first of all 20 henry is way overpriced. and even if priced correctly it's just not an attractive buy - there are too many better new construction options in downtown bk. their general economy timing is bad and their specific area timing is bad. bad+bad=very bad.

Citibank needs cash. The merger with Morgan Stanley is possibly only the start of bigger things to come. My guess is that Citibank will be merging the entire bank with some willing partner in the near future. Of course, I obviously have no insight, otherwise, I wouldn't have had so many shares of a failed bank in my portfolio.

cleanslate, Halstead are the brokers for both 20 Henry and Toren. I feel for them all. How desperate for them to suggest purchasing a one bedroom. Didn't they know to whom they were speaking? lol A suggestion like that almost seems to be analogous to what mortgage brokers were doing with respect to subprime. No concern for the purchaser, only concern for commissions.

As I mentioned in the past, I live down the block from 20 Henry and nothing is being done on the building from what I can see. The Peaks building hasn't had work done on it for ages. Don't understand why they are attempting to sell a building that is not being worked on in the worst economic environment in our time. What a waste of resources.

Finally, B-Love, I am not as optimistic as you as far as seeing continued development in the downtown area in the next 5 years. The initial drawing plan was fantastic but I see limited resources for quite some time and consequently limited development, especially in fringe areas.

When Willoughby Park is completed I will concede that I am mistaken. You would think that the proposed development around the Flatbush Ext. was contingent on the City spending on important infrastructure like a underground garage and pedestrian park but not sure about this. Don't you think that the Sheraton and Loft got, at minimum, a wink that the Ciity would support the surrounding community with developmental projests. Avalon buying up parcels is a good sign, as well as, the City following through.

I'll be watching and expecting updates from B-Love and others.