Toren (post-EW discussion)

BrooklynLove, your optimism is encouraging. I've been very dour of late and, if your optimism turns out to be infectious, my girlfriend will thank you.

Overall, I think downtown Brooklyn is in a much better position than, say, Williamsburg or LIC. Beyond how great I think Toren is, I chose downtown Brooklyn for the proximity to the city coupled with the fact that almost every train is within a 10 minute walk (not to mention the great surrounding 'hoods that I can enjoy after my short commute home from the city). No offense to the L or the 7 trains, but I've experienced both intimately and I could not imagine being limited to one of those two lines. Even if development slows (and, Junkman, I do think Obama's "shovel-ready" mantra will help), I would still choose downtown Brooklyn, and, specifically, Toren.

Junkman - re Citi - that's not a merger - they're selling a majority stake to MS who will then manage the business - it's just going to be an invetment on Citi's B/S when all is said and done. Only justification I can see is that govt is putting the screws to them to start paying back unc sam.

Re continued invesment in downtown bk, do your own research, don't let the news and blogs do it for you. there are many primary sources of info now. reluctance to lend and spend is not the same thing as inability to lend and spend. downtown brooklyn development was, and is, not driven simply by easy credit. relevant to the speed of development no doubt, but it is the underlying fundamentals of the area (location, infrastructure, demographics, etc) that were the seed driving development to date, and will continue to be going forward. you need to stay focused on the long term view.

BrooklynLove, I agree that it looks like a straight out sale. I get the vast majority of my business info from CNBC and they referred to the the deal as follows:

"Morgan Stanley and Citigroup are deep in talks to merge their brokerage operations in a deal that could ultimately lead to Morgan Stanley taking over Citi's Smith Barney unit, according to people familiar with the situation.

The deal would be structured as a joint venture, but would involve a payment from Morgan Stanley of an undisclosed sum that would give Morgan the larger stake in the venture."

The reason I become somewhat pessimistic, at times, is I had a vision of Downtown Brooklyn that is shrinking by the minute. B-Love, remember the Flatiron on Tillary, Hampton Inn on Tillary, Oro II, Catman's major project on Myrtle, Ratner's tallest building in MetroTech, CitiPoint time schedule undecided, Willoughby Square, uncertainty of what will happen with Bridge Street, area behind Toren held by the fireman, Atlantic Yards fiasco, BAM construction not happening anytime soon, boutique hotel down the block from the Sheraton, the disaster called B@Schermerhorn, Oro looking sick, Morton's empty night after night, Sheraton about to be empty once it goes operational, discontinuation of project across from the prison, the prison staying put and possibly expanding etc., etc, etc.

Will these projects get built? Probably, but not on the timetable that I once envisioned. I'm 56 and can't wait 15 years. lol

One last point, the Toren has done everything it set out to do. It is a beautiful building and its marketing is second to none thanks to Joe's hard work. I'd move into their sales office if they would let me. It looks that good and the sales staff is second to none. The Meier building on Prospect Park and the Toren are two of the most beautiful structures in Brooklyn. If Toren was built 6 months earlier, it would have been sold out. Timing is everything.

Still love the Toren but just wish everyone else could have followed through. Unfortunately, the economic situation got in the way.

Junkman is correct... MS gets 51% of SB, and can buy the rest later. Controlling interest is a VERY big deal.

> ok but then your comment was irrelevant so maybe i was reading between the lines a bit.

that one makes no sense at all, BLove...I was just pointing out that your statement about hedges was incorrect. If its irrelevant, that would only be because your post was...

111 Lawrence is moving along nicely. Obviously, everyone hasn't thrown in the towel. Could B-Love be correct? Is there life for Downtown Brooklyn after this recession? Stay tuned.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/01/111_lawrence_ge.php

Sheraton and Aloft right around the corner. Let's go DB.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/07/development_wat_253.php

Then there is Atlantic yards:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123145644648766063.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

> Timing is everything.

Absolutely. Especially when, well, bubbles are concerned...

good timing is always nice but downtown bk is being driven by a bubble though.

and the discussion re hedges was driven by citi's stock price, which was far from zero at the time - that's the irrelevance of your comment.

if that was irrelevant, so was your comment (on top of being wrong)

"never too late for a hedge "

Because never means no other time. So you weren't just talking about NOW. Because then you would have simply said "its a good time to hedge". You are the one who brought up other times... and you just happened to be wrong.

So, if my comment was irrelevant, it is only because yours was.

But only yours was a mistake as well.

> good timing is always nice but downtown bk is being driven by a bubble though

Its not a "but".

Good timing is important, the more important timing is not buying at the peak of a bubble...

if it's not a bubble then that wasn't a peak. contrast nasdaq alltime high with dow 10k.

Why is this building still asking for $750 psf? Make price reductions at $100 psf less per month and just get rid of the inventory. It's better than a single $300psf price reduction 3 months later.

"if it's not a bubble then that wasn't a peak. contrast nasdaq alltime high with dow 10k."

still think that wasn't a bubble?

how many times has nasdaq reached its alltime high? how many times has dj reached 10K?

Does anyone know if the developer is offering any discounts (ex. help with closing, transfer tax, etc.)?

for more information on this topic, please go to the google group (http://groups.google.com/group/toren) which is an open discussion group. or the yahoo group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toren_condos/) which is a closed group for contract holders.

> how many times has nasdaq reached its alltime high?

Once. At the top of the bubble. And we're maybe a third of that level now.

What's your point exactly? That this WASN'T a RE bubble? Or that buying in a bubble is ok because you'll recover? Nasdaq surely does not help your case.

So did you guys move in already? Any updates? :)

no TCO yet.

How can Toren close on any apartments without a Temporary Certificate of Occupancy? That does not sound legit.

It was mentioned in Brownstoner last week that the Toren has rec. its TCO...!

I still can't believe that this building is allegedly 50% in contract when they haven't reduced prices. The location location location is so bad.

HH11231

Sooner or later the developers of the Toren will be forced to face up to reality pricing or else.....lose their prize to their lenders....Its just inevitable...!

There are TCOs issued for units up to the 29th floor and the condo declaration is on file. Seems like closings should start any day now - assuming that buyers can get mortgages. Maybe that's the hold up.

what bank in there right mind will give mortgages here after the Forte wreck next door?

you have no idea what you're talking about

look at all those listings that went to contract back in 2008. Manhattan prices for a brooklyn location (no offence Brooklyn). Now, who steps up to close the deal? Could you walk away from your 10% and come back and buy the same unit for a 30% reduction???

I would walk away if they didn't addjust at least 20% at closing.

I was at Metrotech today and passed by Toren and they still haven't finished the lobby, So people can close but they can't move in unless they want to walk through a construction site on their way to the elevator.

which is done in new construction condo buildings regularly

the bears certainly called this one...

HH1231

An unfinished lobby should be the last thing a buyer should be concerned about!

The "million dollar question" and great concern for contract holders at Toren is HOW MANY CONTRACT HOLDERS WILL ACTUALLY CLOSE.............................!

I think the #1 concern is if this building is the one in negotiations with the city to be turned into moderate income housing. I also think the lobby issue is a major concern due to the close proximity to the projects. I would rather walk into the building directly from Flatbush ave instead of walking down Myrtle and entering from the rear.

HH11231, sure, but the bldg. has always been a mixed-income development (w/ a significant chunk of units set aside for low-income families), so they didn't have too far to go from there to "moderate income housing."

I really liked the bldg. otherwise (or maybe I really WANTED to like it), but I ran as fast as I could upon hearing that it was a mixed-income bldg. So, let us hope that people that are in contract there have higher tolerance for such living arrangements than I do.

I don't believe any units are "low income", the 40 units were all middle income. And the prices were never so low - 390,000 for a one bedroom isn't anything to sneeze at.

"I don't believe any units are "low income", the 40 units were all middle income. And the prices were never so low - 390,000 for a one bedroom isn't anything to sneeze at."

As pointed out on an earlier thread, many of these "middle income people" are well-educated civil servants or teachers, or people who have alternative career paths in the arts etc. I personally am grateful for their contributions to the city, and am happy to live near them.

nyc212 that is one of the reasons why I thought the rest of the units would be sold as "moderate income" units with government subsidies since 20% of the units were marketed as such. The other reason is that they increased prices at the height of the Recession; I think they did this because they knew they would eventually turn the rest of the units into subsidized housing so why not try to get a few suckers to buy at pre-bubble prices. In that article a few weeks ago regarding the anonymous new development they mentioned the building was in Fort Greene which technically Toren is located within.

"nyc212 that is one of the reasons why I thought the rest of the units would be sold as "moderate income" units with government subsidies since 20% of the units were marketed as such. The other reason is that they increased prices at the height of the Recession; I think they did this because they knew they would eventually turn the rest of the units into subsidized housing so why not try to get a few suckers to buy at pre-bubble prices. In that article a few weeks ago regarding the anonymous new development they mentioned the building was in Fort Greene which technically Toren is located within."

South Myrtle at Flatbush Extension is Downtown Brooklyn - http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/about/pr051004b.shtml. Not to mention, the Toren developers are pretty hard core about not negotiating prices, so I doubt they would sell out to more subsidized housing than they had already allotted.

OK before 2004 it use to be Fort Greene: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Greene,_Brooklyn sorry I'm not a broker.

HH: That's an interesting possibility. It is unfortunate because I heard that a significant portion of the early buyers there were self-made first-generation Americans who wanted to "move up." This is a terrible blow.

neuro: Sure, some of the lower income individuals may have respectable jobs, and my aversion to this arrangement did not stem from occupational discrimination. How can I put this...well, in a nutshell, if I am coughing up $1 mil, I am not living in a bldg. where many of my neighbors paid SIGNIFICANTLY less due to their income. I am selfish that way.

The "affordable" apartments are price at the same level (more or less) as the the market rate apartments. They have similar prices/sqft. They are less expensive only by dint of being on lower floors, not having top of the line appliances, and being mostly on the smaller end. Otherwise, they are identical to the market rate apartments. So no, no one is paying significantly less than anyone else.

"In that article a few weeks ago regarding the anonymous new development they mentioned the building was in Fort Greene which technically Toren is located within"

more likely Forte. anyway, agreed that this building has some challenges facing it.

Yes, SO unlike the buildings down the block.

The delusion is funny.

any news on Toren? Drove by there recently and was shocked to see any west-facing views they once had when the building first started selling were completely gone.

today the mystery developement has been revealed!

in an article in the wall street journal: WSJ.com - Retail Vacancies on the Rise
Source: online.wsj.com

as well as in the real deal: http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/jamestown-properties-to-invest-in-troubled-brooklyn-development

and now the price chops...

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/04/15/with_sales_at_asking_prices_dobros_toren_pricechops.php#more