Powerhouse Condo Not Selling Well!! Financial Difficulties Arise

i bet all the BSD bond traders are buying at the powerhouse.

breath... breath.... take an aspirin if that knot in your chest doesn't subside in 60 secs..... breathe.... may you have unobstructed views and no projects in your dreams.... sweet dreamz.... sweeet dreamz.....

Oh and I'm pulling for you... I need the NASDAQ up over x-mas... just purely selfish.... I'll make a few bills but someone very very very very dear to me is gonna pull in some real coin... so for X-mas santa can we have a continuance of this BS market rally...

hey aboutready.... incredible... how can Ericho69 get better as a bond "salezman" if he's spending 24/7 pumping up the PH... the funny thing is, I don't think hez a broker there... but just likes hanging out with them and hearing "war" stories and fetching coffee and donuts when they ask.....

What about the crack whores on Purves street?

YO MCHALE! howz tricks? Love me the kick the can economy we got going.. but I'm not in charge :)

No no..i'm using 850 psf..i'm above water!!! YEHAAAAAA..but of cause i'm not selling..i don't day trade my home.

Hey, a few weeks ago i gave you a tip...side way trading to s&p 880 and then to 1,000. Did you take my advice? Of cause not..you and your cronies thought this country and economy was going down the toilet. You've been bearish for so long and to say you make money on the long side is laughable.

w67th, he bought somewhere in LIC. he may be talking up every development just to put in a good word for the 'hood, i'm not reading his drivel generally so i don't know, but there is many a time when his ignored comments appear in twosomes and threesomes, a bit excessive really for a bond "trader" with no vested interests. just took a peak at a recent comment to join in the fun.

how is the boat search going? perhaps the powerhouse has mooring.

AR,
You're out of the fat lost rehab already? I figure you'll be there for at least 2+ years with your condition.

"What about the crack whores on Purves street?"

Is that Long Island City or Chelsea? Steve's not going to like you rapping on his neighborhood.

ericho.. .a sure thing is a sure thing... you imbecile.... there are times to be bears and times to be bulls... i bgt NYC RE in 1991 to 2004 (including my commercial assets)... then things got outta hand... no foundation or basis on a rental income or CF basis and been sidelined till now.... therez you got it... NET NET NET... this turmoil in mkts and NYC RE in particular has been GREAT for me personally.
Your $1000 psf PH purchase, not so great...

$850psf.... okay.. .letz see where PH ends up in the next 3 qtrs... and continue to pump and dump as much as you like.....

AR,
You're absolutely right....
I got plenty of time on my hand because i'm a 'wannabe' commercial broker like you.

And W67thstreet..you really don't need a boat to check out Newton Creek...try a bike my friend.

AR, literally I have not seen this much panic in the boat market and if this is any indication (which it is, as 2nd home mkts and boats/toys mkts always nose dive first), NYC RE gotz a long way to go.... literally $500K boats can be had for $100K.... just breathtaking.....

Ericko... some curves are nice no, or do you get a rize when a girl looks "flat" like a boy..... ????

So what time is it now Mr. Bear?
Market's going up...prices in LIC are going UP...time to put on that bull suit my friend and make sure your bull suit don't have a set of blue balls.

sniff sniff.....

bearish still w/ hints of jasmine....

I love curves....but when she can't see her toes, we got problems.

WTF? did u say lic up? i just peeed on myself.... need hand towel quick!

lol...you're a great guy. Rude as hell..but funny.

"WTF? did u say lic up?"

Yes! 515 psf...540 psf...580 psf....

goodnite all

Sweet dreams...don't let AR rollover though.

w67th, i haven't seen this much panic in the LIC market. as emerging markets always nose dive first, prime NYC RE has a long way to go.

jerkico is just a pig. i've got me some curves, but i'm hardly overweight. and i snuck another peak, jericko, i had a very good opportunity that i gave up at ESG to move oversees. i don't regret it, nor my current economic situation. put it this way, i've bought twice in manhattan, and if i buy again it will be in manhattan.

by the way, to all others, i have nothing against LIC per se, i was last out there in 1999 when it was the nearest Home Depot. to me it is just an emerging market that looks vulnerable. but to me all of NYC looks vulnerable, just not quite so.

I'll have to see if I can find a picture of the charming Jerkico. That might be fun.

ericho75
about 1 hour ago
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"What about the crack whores on Purves street?"

Is that Long Island City or Chelsea? Steve's not going to like you rapping on his neighborhood.

Nope it's in LIC, we used to get humm jobs for about $7 package deal for 5 guys back in the day...1970's....believe some of the old crack whores are now giving gum jobs over there.

Too many on here are treating this like a debate with two sides and multiple POV. But there are some truisms in urban RE development that hold true across time and have been proven over and over again throughout the economic cycles of our city.

One such truism, is that in a downturn, the fringes pull back first. LIC is a fringe. It is pulling back. There is no point debating this. It can't and won't be refuted in this great recession. People who ignored this simple truth, despite it being a well known phenomenon and easily studied, are going to pay a price. It is yet another example of the shocking recklessness that otherwise sane people engaged in during the RE run-up of the last decade. How on earth could you invest in LIC (or Williamsburg or DUMBO or Harlem) and not accept that prices were lower in part to reflect the proportionately higher risk that came with such an investment. As a long-term proposition, investing in RE in established areas that have proven themselves over decades carries relatively low risk. You may not make a killing, but in the long run you aren't likely to lose your shirt unless you disregarded a handful of other basic truths in RE. But short or long-term, investments in the fringe carry much greater risk. Because even when the economy picks up, there will be so much play in the more established and desirable areas that the fringe often gets left behind or forgotten. If one is lucky, it too picks up, but at the tail end of the economic upturn.

LIC was a great risk, and remains such. No amount of typing and blather can change that.

And IMO, FWIW, if you lose views of Manhattan in LIC, why on earth would anyone live there over many other neighborhoods that are even less money? There's nothing to warrant the premium without a drop dead view of the city skyline. I don't care how good the lounge or gym is.

I should have added to "fringes pull back first," by also saying "and hardest".

While I agree with you, and would STRONGLY advise anyone to follow the principles, there are counter examples. Think of what happened with Tribeca in the last cycle: if we look at the upside of the cycle as being between 1982 and 1987, Tribeca was VERY fringe at the beginning and less so towards the end, but fringe Tribeca was VERY fringe even towards the end of that time period (looking at buildings like 176 Broadway, 145 Nassau, etc.). Still, improvement in the area in general over-rode the usual LIFO situation you described and Tribeca - even fringe Tribeca - fared as well as most of the "established"/"good" areas during the downturn (as contrasted sharply with the East Village and other newly gentrified areas, or even long established areas where you just couldn't sell Coops period like Forrest Hills/Rego Park). So, given the above, it would have been possible to adhere to the premise, bought a Coop in Forrest hills over Tribeca, and fared substantially worse.

But as I said at the beginning, I fully agree with you in principle, and people who think they have the ability to foresee a "Forrest Hills vs Tribeca" scenario up front are most likely headed for a bruising.

30 yrs, we agree again. There are exceptions. And as you point out, unless one has the financial wherewithal to bet wrong, trying to find the exception and then dumping all one's eggs into that basket is the kind of recklessness we're talking about. Personally, the amount of risk a prudent person of ordinary financial means is willing to take with the funds tied up in his/her primary residence should not be comparable to the risks one takes at the craps tables in Vegas.

those who couldnt afford manhattan bot in lic---now manhattan is much more affordable--no more bid for lic
simple
3-400 psf within 9 months
hey ericho--how's your scuba gear holding up?

Most of you really need to spend a nice Sunday or Saturday afternoon in the neighborhood (hunter's point/waterfront).
LIC is very very nice and it's becoming a real hot spot for new yorkers in the weekend. I know nothing i say is going to change any of your minds, but until you really go there with an open mind you'll see the potential that lies in this area.

Aboutready, you have no right to comment LIC since the last time you visited the neighborhood was 1 decade ago. I'm sure the same can be said for many here that criticize the powerhouse and LIC.

my comments specifically refer to Jerkico, and i admit it. however, as kylewest more eloquently put it, my determination that it is almost certainly a poor place to put your money right now really has nothing to do with how it looks. it has to do with its place in a very competitive marketplace.

just for my own edification, i did a search of recorded closings for LIC. i know the data lags, but there have only been 190 closed sales in the last six months. there are 29 listed new developments and/or conversions, with not many of them being close to selling out and many with little to no closings. that's all i need to know if i'm thinking about buying, i don't care how gorgeous the neighborhood. potential may be there, but i'm very much afraid it won't be met during this real estate cycle.

"30 something units out of 177 closed in 11 months? stellar work."

I see about 47 on the acris site:

50-09 2 STREET, 211 11101 758 $549,855 1/21/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 212 11101 759 $534,581 1/21/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 213 11101 1,268 $789,337 1/29/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 214 11101 1,001 $524,398 3/26/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 215 11101 965 $524,398 5/28/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 217 11101 1,009 $733,140 1/26/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 305 11101 757 $534,581 3/13/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 308 11101 890 $672,045 2/11/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 313 11101 1,268 $840,056 2/24/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 314 11101 1,001 $650,000 1/15/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 315 11101 965 $626,223 2/5/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 318 11101 613 $425,880 1/14/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 321 11101 859 $605,858 4/7/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 403 11101 947 $743,322 1/26/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 405 11101 757 $549,855 3/5/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 406 11101 1,118 $845,147 4/22/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 408 11101 890 $682,227 1/27/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 412 11101 759 $580,402 1/29/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 413 11101 1,268 $845,147 3/13/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 414 11101 1,001 $665,426 2/13/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 416 11101 1,357 $735,890 4/21/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 417 11101 1,009 $682,227 1/23/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 418 11101 613 $436,020 1/29/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 419 11101 880 $570,220 1/27/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 421 11101 859 $605,858 2/25/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 423 11101 884 $661,862 2/19/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 502 11101 945 $712,775 2/27/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 504 11101 1,281 $926,607 1/16/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 506 11101 1,118 $860,421 1/30/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 511 11101 758 $590,585 1/9/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 512 11101 759 $580,402 3/19/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 515 11101 965 $677,136 1/29/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 605 11101 1,009 $834,965 2/27/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 619 11101 880 $608,302 3/5/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 620 11101 851 $580,402 2/2/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 717 11101 1,009 $728,048 3/2/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 718 11101 613 $466,440 2/4/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 802 11101 791 $720,000 2/12/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 805 11101 1,441 $1,425,550 1/27/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 806 11101 1,131 $1,120,075 1/14/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 902 11101 791 $722,957 1/9/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 908 11101 608 $501,930 1/7/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 1003 11101 1,201 $1,069,162 12/29/2008
50-09 2 STREET, 1008 11101 608 $379,000 8/28/2008
50-09 2 STREET, 1103 11101 1,201 $1,109,892 2/6/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 1109 11101 1,473 $981,000 5/14/2009
50-09 2 STREET, 1113 11101 1,187 $865,512 1/12/2009

I speak solely from the standpoint of risk one assumes when investing in fringe areas. The risk can be mitigated somewhat with a long time horizon, but the risk is high no matter what. That said, I am puzzled by the tone of Ubottom's and others' posts--no idea why anyone would take any pleasure (let alone express it) in strangers' potentially difficult financial situations or investments that aren't working out. Why would you even comment on it in such a personal way? Giving oneself the illusion of rising up by putting others down is pathetic.

And InFamous, I don't disagree with you. But some neighborhoods, as much as they try, by virtue of location have uphill battles in a down economy. I hope LIC is an exception and proves itself in the long run--NYC would be better for it. The more terrific neighborhoods, the better. My point is just that LIC has some serious headwinds to content with if it is to soar. But that doesn't exactly take a genious to see.

InFamous, I don't do ACRIS, and my complaint is not with LIC itself, but I'd have to repeat, 47 out of 177 in 11 months, in this credit environment, not so stellar.

kylewest, I agree. in no way is the city improved by having blighted neighborhoods that once held so much potential. whether it be hell's kitchen or williamsburg or LIC.

Have to agree with Kylewest, without the views why would anyone pay a premium for LIC over a neighborhood like Sunnyside?

I'm not disagreeing that prices can go lower, i'm just saying that people are painting LIC as some cooked up drug neighborhood are wrong. The area that ericho75 & LICComment refers to (Hunter's Point) is very very nice. It has the potential to be the best of the 3(WB, Dumbo & LIC).

No one knows where prices will end up and very little saw this little upturn we're seeing in this economy and if the economy does come out of this funk later on this year, how do you expect prices to continue to collapse? Weak..yes...but a another 40-50% cut in 9 months (comment from UBottom) seem a bit extreme with no data to support it. If any, recent economic and housing data has been positive.

kylewest, lots of great points (though I think you've been here long enough not to be surprised that some people here take strange pleasure out of others' financial difficulties). These areas certainly have an uphill battle if they plan on contending with prime Manhattan neighborhoods - the risk is such that it's quite difficult to go for a pure investment there, but I will say that there are those who actually want to live there (which doesn't make it a purely financial investment in the same sense of the word). What has always amazed me is people expecting valuations to actually match prime Manhattan - I just don't see that happening. The gap may narrow in the areas that do well, especially long-term, but to have aspirations beyond that is a bit foolish.

"InFamous, I don't do ACRIS, and my complaint is not with LIC itself, but I'd have to repeat, 47 out of 177 in 11 months, in this credit environment, not so stellar."

As of today, i believe the number is closer to 58-60 closed with a number of units in contract. The numbers will start popping out over the next few months.

@ericho75

summarize it all!?!
no view
cheap build, kitchen
no viking ( i have contract does not say viking it says viking or similar, contract from 3 diff buyers maybe they changed it after reading this, thats fine with me dont really care)
no real parking its temporary
thin walls, noisy etc...
no spa done
no intercom

too expensive for what it is. not saying to not buy. i say buy at the right price. did not say 450 per sf yet so maybe you are smoking not me. i said 500 to 550 per sf thats what today the value should be to my opinion. yes i have friends living there and i do go often. i do not trash them, i see how upset they are. they were promised a lot and got little.

those are facts real facts no blabla.. like you do and a buyer should do his or her homework before buying so i encourage them to note the points i am giving them and go check themselves if they are important to them.

Talked to the super 3 weeks ago, over 100 units occupied, over 60 units are by owners.

Hwy,
That is correct..they are hiring another team of construction people to hammer out the punch lists for a number of closings over the next 2-6 weeks. Obviously there are one or two individuals on here that is posting the same misleading information and desperately trying to drive away potential buyers. As an owner of the building, i feel obligated to protect myself and my neighbors. This is one of the best buildings in all of LIC and if i need to be the gatekeeper, then be it.

Mike77, what a LOSER you are to come on these boards and bash your friend's investment for your own personal gain. You my friend need to grow up....

Interesting that you admit that you are merely protecting your investment. Makes clear where you are coming from.

Incidentally, you really need to relax. It's only money and your mortgage company has more sunk in to this disapponting building than you do. And your hyperventaling alone will not prop up your desperate hopes for the "greater fool" theory of investments.

60 units owner occupied. 40 units rented by sponsor. The building as 177 units! It means 77 units or 43% of the building is still empty. Where is the good news in that?

At some point after the initial offering, I suspect buyers will have to pay a premium rate on their mortgage if the owner occupancy (non-rented, non-vacant) does not get above 80%. That could take years.

The building started closing early this year. Not sure if you know BUT there's a financial crisis out there.
The fact that sales continue to happen says a lot about the building and the current sales team.

Renting out 40+ units in 3 months time is also a very positive indication of this building. Let's see where we are in another 3 months.

"Renting out 40+ units in 3 months time"

-- Man, the desperation on this board is palpable. I hate to break this to you, but this aint exactly every developer's dream. That's exactly like saying that the fact that a few life-rafts were launched and floating was "a very positive indication" for the Titanic. Really, you folks have to relax. Just because you are financially upside-down doesn't mean your grasp of reality needs to be assbackwards too.

Looks like your attempt to bash this building over the past 12 months netted you nothing.

This thread continues to be read and anyone remotely interested will head over to the Powerhouse just to see what the fuss is all about. For example, InFamous was a perfect example of this. He's been a supporter of LIC and the powerhouse after visiting the neighborhood.

LIC isn't the problem. The building is. I live there, so I know. Fortunately I saw some problematic signs and rented first to watch developments. Sales staff was squirly about the housing project issue - "it may never be built" - among other things. In retrospect I should have been even more careful about checking for signs that a project that set out to be first rate simply ran out of steam and was barely staggering to the finish line, cutting corners all the way. Was I optimistic that things would work out -- yes, too much so or I wouldn't have rented at all. My firsthand experience has confirmed my worst suspicions. The undeniable sound insulation problem is symnptomatic. Thin walls and literally hollow doors. I mean, how much more extra could standard doors cost? Every resident I have met grumbles about this issue first and foremost and there are other evident problems. (Some of those problems have been mentioned here, but some have not. For example, what's the consierge-of-the-minute story? There must have been well over a dozen in the last couple of months - these people know nothing and wouldn't know a resident from a non-resident if their life depended on it. I've never witnessed such an attrition of staff in any other building - it's not a revolving door, it's practically gyrating and it's a sign of something.) I wonder also about what other corner-cutting was done that is not so in-your-face obvious but that will create problems in the long run.

The housing project issue is not just the totally spoiled view, although the construction that will block the view is being started first. It's also years of construction surrounding you and, at the end, the high-cost Powerhouse is surrounded by high-density projects. That is not ideal inder any circumstances and it only adds insult to injury that the thousands of people in public assisted housing will have better views and probably better constructed buildings. It's like paying $300 bucks for Mets tickets and getting nosebleed seats while someone paying $30 bucks sits on the third base line.

I'm not saying that the developers are bad people. The bottom fell out of the market midstream and I can appreciate that they had to bring the project to completion somehow. But that doesn't need to be my permanent problem. You can't re-finish a building and get it right a few years in the future when the market recovers. What is done is done and a promising project is ruined. Fortunately, there are plenty of buildings that were fully completed under normal or even flush market conditions that are not fraught with the permanent scars of corner-cutting distress. I trust some of those buildings are in LIC because I may very well be looking to stay here. It is not a place for every one, certainy not for those who want to feel like they are in the thick of the city, but I like it and have no concerns with prices in LIC generally. I just picked the wrong pony to ride. Fortunately I can bail out in a way not available to those who purchased, who would have to take a big financial hit. But I can't walk away THAT easily. I'd like to walk away from my lease now and take advantage of the market conditions but can't. You would think that, if all the BS here about "only X number of 1-bedrooms left" etc. were true, the develper would be more than happy to offer my unit to the throngs lining up overnight to buy.

As a LIC resident for the last 4 years renting in Avalon I can share my thoughts on the hood, this area went through a major change in landscape, a 180 degree to the better and changing on a daily basis,

There is no other neighborhood outside of Manhattan that has access to so many means of transportation like LIC, we have the 7 line 2 blocks east that will get me 9 out of 10 times to grand central in less then 10 minutes, we also have the midtown tunnel 2 blocks away, the LIRR 1.5 blocks away the 59th 12 blocks to the north, LIE 3 blocks to the east and the water taxi 1 block on the west coast,

Working in midtown this place makes it most convenient for me, since I don’t particularly enjoy the very busy Manhattan after hours, however anytime I want to be in Time Square in the evenings ill beat my friends coming from Williamsburg or downtown Manhattan, we also enjoy a very safe and fairly clean neighborhood, with beautifully state and NYC parks growing and expanding by the day, we now have some great retailers in the area.

The same time this neighborhood does not have as much of development as Williamsburg or Dumbo so there is much less available units on the market.
I have recently visited most new developments in the area and was surprised to see that most new buildings are at least 50% occupied sold or rented, the weekend open houses are quite busy and there is a fair amount of interest for the neighborhood.

As for the PH, as much as I opposed the demolition of the chimneys 3 years ago, I must admit that I failed to have the vision for the adoptive reuse of the building, its by far the best project in the area with the nicest amenities and finishes.

I have personally visited some of the model units, all of wich have solid wood doors and above standerd hardeware, I was personaly not to crazy about the kitchens but,over all it's a quality building with above averege finishes compare to the other LIC new developments.

i saw the finishes at the View at East Coast and they completely blew away the crap i saw at the powerhouse. unfortunately the view is in a much worse position than the powerhouse, mainly driven by timing, but the finishes in the powerhouse were nothing special

jerkico "gatekeeper" = one with a corroding investment who tries to stir up continued demand with misleading info in the hope that he can some day be rightside up

Miss-leading info?
Please direct me to that?

Yes, keep wishing for that 50% decline.

The view is priced about 30%-35% higher than PH on a psf basis.
You are talking about finishes that can probably be completely redone for about 15-20K.

Nick26..your attempt to talk down PH has failed miserably. If you are one of the owners that are in contract dispute, bashing the building here will do you no good. It's actually created quite a stir in sale attendance over the past 2 months. I appreciate your effort.

Again..all news is good news!

Ivar,

"I'd like to walk away from my lease now and take advantage of the market conditions but can't."

You mean your contract...this is getting old.

ericho75,

Is this what all this hate for Powerhouse is about? A few owners that are in dispute to get out of their contracts? I wonder how using a public forum can resolve their problem. This really is strange. Again, the time i did my tour of the Powerhouse, the number of people in the sales office was overwhelming. Now with reports of units getting sold and about 100 units are closed or rented out says a lot about the quality of the building. I know for a fact the walls ARE NOT THIN, the DOORS are NOT HOLLOW and the overall finishes all looked great. I wish you the best in your new home.

Thank You infamous.

This is getting old. If you look back on my posts, I was on the fence about PH initially. After being on this thread for 6 weeks, I'm convinced even low 500s pricing isnt going to materially move sales.. And by material, I mean faster than the 5 units in the last 4 months pace.

mjay61,
"I'm convinced even low 500s pricing isnt going to materially move sales."

You're seriously out of touch with reality. Acris is a good 10-15 units behind in reporting. Try buying a 1 bedroom in the mid 500s these days.

This thread is like Lazarus. It just won't die.

Some say sound is an issue. Some say it's not. Hard to tell who is right.

RUfeakin' kidding me? Are we still talking about sound at this place? Is there anything left to say? I challenge anyone to say something on this thread that hasn't been said to death already. Why does any care enough about this project to have such strong opinions EITHER way? I mean honestly. Why?

I for one do think it's interesting. This was billed as a top building in LIC. Interesting to see if it lives up to top billing. H

If you aren't interested, then don't read.

kylewest, desperation. if confidence were real, this wouldn't be necessary.

Amazing how someone who rents in Peter Cooper Village is trying to criticize LIC condos.

No LIC, actually this is directed at Jerkico. i'm a non-discriminatory critic of new development. if you want to see one that would make the PH people feel good about their decision, check out the Laurel on the UES. the PH's sales history puts this one to shame. and for the last f'ng time, i have nothing against any of the emerging neighborhoods, i considered buying in central harlem, but they are risky investments. you risk less here, obviously, than you do at the Laurel, because even though that is in a more developed neighborhood, the prices are astronomical.

renting in PCV makes a lot of sense financially. and i like living here, now. and i'm paying quite a bit less here than i would in LIC, not to mention the fact that my renovated apartment may revert to RS. and my daughter goes to school on the UES. so i'll take PCV over LIC any day. ciao, and have a great day.

its actually kind of fun to hear the continual yearning for "greater fools" fram the bad longs at PH

yearning in the form of misrepresentation

an interesting thought: who the f wants to buy in a condo half-filled with renters that will be inudated for years with construction noise debris traffic dust? and the whole theme of lic was as an affordable alternative to manhattan that was nearby. manhattan's much more affordable now and will become moreso.
PH.....why?

"condo half-filled with renters"

Ubottom, by far you are the most misinformed poster in Streeteasy. Your projections and understanding of housing in NYC is comparable to a pre-K child trying to learn algebra. First off, you've been downright wrong about prices dropping another 40-50% since the spring. Prices are actually up a little since. No point in debating this as closing are happening now at a higher psf price. You will see this in acris over the next 2 months. Please, no need to respond to this as the truth will make you look like a complete moron.
New development in Manhattan is about $1,100-$1,500 psf. PH is at 600-640 right now. We're looking at close to a 40-60% cheaper than Manhattan. Please, don't compare PH with a Manhattan walk-up.
In regards to dust and construction. Manhattan is by FAR the dirtiest borough in NYC. There are more debris, car exhaust, noise, crazy/rude tourist and garbage flying around. So, okay..Manhattan offers you the easy access to restaurants and bodega...woppee...big deal. Beside your area, i can probably get to any restaurants and stores faster than you can.

..and 40 units out of 177 isn't 50%....

AR,
"kylewest, desperation. if confidence were real, this wouldn't be necessary."

Aren't you suppose to be in McDonalds?
You mentioned you own 2 places before in Manhattan. If people come on public message forum and spread false rumors and talk badly about them, you probably be annoyed. Knowing you, you would be down right hungry and UPSET...
We're humans, no one liked to be called something they are not...right?

I don't know why people whom have never been to LIC for over a decade or even seen PH can criticize it.
AboutReady, if you are so sure about the decline of this housing market to have more legs, then why are you debating with others about it? Is confidence an issue too? I can't see why it is wrong to debunk rumors and false information about an investment.

Any comments on common charge in PH?

the common charges are listed on streeteasy and douglas elliman websites.

InFamous, i am NOT criticizing LIC. for the last f'ng time i am saying that emerging neighborhoods fare the worst in a downturn, and you and i obviously fundamentally disagree on whether this downturn will round the corner any day now complete with emoticons and smooth sailing. i don't have to go to bushwick, or east harlem, or LIC to know that those are not CURRENTLY very good investment opportunities, in the event that the downturn continues, or equally likely, a second downturn occurs in a year or two.

if you are so certain that the PH will do well, why are you debating with others about it? i'm talking about real estate because it is something i enjoy following, and have followed for years. i have no real vested interest, if i buy in Manhattan it will be to gift to our daughter, but i can happily foresee renting for the duration of our time here. we will not retire in manhattan, so my real concern should be prices in Seattle or Santa Fe, San Francisco if California doesn't implode for good. i'm in no hurry to buy in any of those locations as well, but at some point i'll most likely make the determination that adding a property somewhere to our financial portfolio in anticipation of retirement makes sense. now, not so much.

Sorry, i just find it odd why you would think someone lacks confidence about their investment just because they are dispelling a false rumor or inaccurate statement. If you can do that in general about your stance about housing, why can't owners of Powerhouse do that?

jerkoffco--soon will end the years of playing tennis i have enjoyed in what will be the perpetual construction site in your front yard--i have likely watched the evolution of LIC for longer than you--you are long at the high getting waterboarded and you are desperate to create greater fools--

you are very knowledgeable: long at the top in a way underwater investment
this pre-k investor sold all his RE in 06-07-proceeds remain in tips and other treasuries-it's nice to be young no?

good luck surfin for suckers mr gatekeeper
gotta go--im looking for another place to play tennis!!

I'm so glad they got rid of those tennis courts.
The last thing we need are fools like you hanging around our neighborhood.

And where did you get the notion that i bought my place at the peak? You're assuming that prices will drop below Spring prices...sorry, we're not there yet.

And what moron is sitting in tips and treasuries with yields at historic lows and market making the biggest 4 month move in history. Instead of patting yourself in the back, you're actually slapping yourself silly.

InFamous, owners at the PH can. it's not dispelling a false rumor, it's the creation of the positive rumors that i object to. read the entries. and at a certain point the entries just seem a bit desperate, but that may be due to my personal animosity, and i'll admit that.

AR,
Point to a post where posters post 'POSTIVE' rumors? If you're referring to the sales data that i've posted, then you are wrong because those sales data are accurate. They're not rumors. They are numbers i confirmed with people in the building.

Comparing LIC to Bushwick just shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Can someone show the data that "emerging" neighborhoods fare worse than others in all downturns? Did Tribeca or the Meatpacking District fare worse than established neighborhoods in the early and mid-90s?

lic11101,I know the common charges are listed on streeteasy and douglas elliman websites. How to know if they are reasonable?

> No point in debating this as closing are happening now at a higher psf price.

Elliman documented that contracts in July were being signed at medians lower than q2.

Q3 will be down even more than Q2.

Sorry to burst your.... bubble.

"New development in Manhattan is about $1,100-$1,500 psf. PH is at 600-640 right now. We're looking at close to a 40-60% cheaper than Manhattan"

20 pine already under $700 psf.

If its 40-60% cheaper you want, stay tuned for massive continued decreases.

LOL!
You got caught NYC10022...i just made a bet with my coworker who also reads these board that you will make a reference to 20 Pine..thanks for netting me a free dinner.

Yes, I so HATE being caught being right!

I am pretty amazed that you bet your coworker that you were going to get proven wrong again. Then again, I guess shills genuinely know they're shilling.

@ericho75 beside trying to change the conversation each time, the facts i mentioned are there and my friends that bought at the PH feels the same way.

And if you knew how to read better you would see that i do not trash the PH but warned the facts before making an offer for whoever wants to buy because a broker or the sales team would not tell them and thats not fair.

not i dont need to buy an apartment I have a very nice place already with guarantee views but thanks anyway. And if you really want to know so this can be clear to you, even at 550 or whatever with all facts on hand, I would not buy at the PH if i were looking for a new place.

You can't really be arguing that 20 Pine is indicative of the Manhattan real estate market???

> You can't really be arguing that 20 Pine is indicative of the Manhattan real estate market???

Certainly more so than building in LIC are. If you can get the same prices in FiDi as LIC, just pretty clearly shows that somebody has some more dropping to do.

> Certainly more so than building in LIC are. If you can get the same prices in FiDi as LIC, just pretty clearly shows that somebody has some more dropping to do.

Ok, this comment is brainless. 20 Pine isn't even indicative of FiDi, let alone all of Manhattan, but the discussion was about comparing prices in LIC to Manhattan. The discussion was not comparing LIC to LIC and then using that as an indicator of comparable Manhattan prices.
FiDi is more expensive than LIC. Even so, there are reasons some people would prefer LIC over FiDi even if prices were comparable.

No NYC10022, every time we talk about psf in Manhattan you always refer to 20 pine. It's the ONLY one development in all of Manhattan that you bears always refer to. Name me another one?

for manhattan coops, very general rule of thumb for maintenance is $1- $1.5 per square foot.

if you're trying to compare condos though, common charges seem to be around $.75 to $1 per square foot and more...manhattan being closer to the $1/sf and hunters point being closer to $0.75/sf. ph is right around $0.75/sf and, in some cases, less.

Mike77,

I'm glad you are happy with your purchase or rental. I'm also happy you won't want to buy in the Powerhouse, but we all know who you are and your intentions. There are Powerhouse condo owner groups in Yahoo and majority of the people love it there.
So please, stop with the cheap walls, hallow doors, crashing psf prices, financial trouble, no views anymore, etc. bashing.

"Certainly more so than building in LIC are. If you can get the same prices in FiDi as LIC, just pretty clearly shows that somebody has some more dropping to do."

You truly are a moron.
One development in all of Manhattan dictates prices for ALL new development. LOL!!!

Sorry..i can't help myself..

> I am pretty amazed that you bet your coworker that you were going to get proven wrong again.

BTW, how do I get in on this action? I'd like to make some money betting you're wrong, too.

"You truly are a moron.
One development in all of Manhattan dictates prices for ALL new development. LOL!!!

Sorry..i can't help myself.."

Wait, let me get this straight... the folks who are advising to pay $640 psf in LIC are calling others dumb.

HAAAAAAAAAAA

You just need one example to show that this purchase is stupid. Yes, I know LICC loves the toxic waste, but you need a special kind of idiot to buy in LICC for the same prices you can get - in new development at a luxury building - in a significantly more desirable area.

Doesn't get much more moronic than the folks who claimed LIC was a great investment... except for perfitz, maybe.

"It's the ONLY one development in all of Manhattan that you bears always refer to. Name me another one?"

15 CPW.

Kindergarden class is over, now go back and play in the toxic waste.

How do prices at 15 CPW imply in any way that LIC prices are high compared to Manhattan? nyc10022, did you drink too much last night?

This thread is getting out of control. Let's just summarize:

1) Powerhouse initial went on sale in Late 2007 for an average price of approximately $850psf for the high floors and $750psf for the low floors. They managed to get 60 or so units in contract out of 177 before the credit crisis hit. Of that 60 or so, maybe about 40 or so units managed to close. 20 or so contract holders walked away (probably forfeiting their deposits). Some of the more bitter posters could be made by those that walked away from their deposits (There is no proof of this, just speculation).

In the last few months, the developer has cut prices aggressively. Current average price for high floors is approximately $600psf. This is down approximately 30% from pre-credit crisis days. This is proven by numerous ARCIS reporting sales in that range. This means the 40 or so earlier purchasers in the building are significantly underwater. These underwater owners have been agressively defending everything about this building. Anywhere between 10 or 20 units were sold after the price cuts. Several have posted to ARCIS, others will eventually hit ARCIS in the coming months.

2) The sponsor has rented out at least 40 units within the building. Initially owners here claimed the rentals were coming from an outside investor who bought units. Eventually it was confirmed by renters the rental supply was indeed coming from the sponsor. There are also several individual owners who also rented out their units making the current non-owner residents in the powerhouse to be more than 40 units.

3) Several renters and one owner have acknowledged thin wall and noise problems along the way in this long thread. Other owners here have claimed no noise issues. I know an owner friend in the building and she allowed me to read the owner group in Yahoo which definitely had owners complaining of noise issues. So this is not a fabricated issue. However, to be fair, this maybe a unit specific problem as some units may not have this issue.

4) The city is currently expected to build a large number of high rise housing units for family earning $55,000 and $158,000 for a family of four. This is not low income housing. This project has been progressing and there are no reasons to believe this won't be done. When this city project is finished, PH will lose its manhattan view and some sunlight.

5) The refrigerator are viking for all owners. The sponsor changed the refrigerators to frigidaire for renters. The frigidaire are two doors, side by side stainless (fairly high quality). The cooking range is viking for all owners who paid above seven figure price and for owners who went into contract in 2007. Those that don't meet those qualifications either have jenn air range or negociated viking in their contract. The jenn air range is approximately $2k in price and the viking approximately $5k in price. Jenn air is a cheaper replacement compared with Viking but the jenn air range is still better than your average GEs.

6) As of today, seven months after the initial closing, the highly advertised touch screen concierge direct system have still not been installed. This leaves a hole in every units' wall with where the touch screen is expected to be installed. Currently there is no ETA on when the system will be in place.

I think that summarizes all the facts...

One correction LG. The city is not going to build the nearby housing. They are building infrastructure and a high school, and the housing is going to be privately built and managed under arrangements with the city that 60% of the apartments will be for people in the income range you mentioned, and 40% will be market rate.

Some more comments to the facts...

1) out of the 40 units that went into contract, some of them got price adjustments. Some owners also traded up their contracted units for more space (more space for the same amount).

2) The owner have 40 units available for rent. Not all of them are rented out.

3) There's no real measurement for 'noise'. Everyone has different noise tolerance level. I believe there are NYC construction laws that require walls to be specific thickness. I was informed Powerhouse's wall are double the requirement.

4) The projects are NOT financed by the city. The city will build the infrastructure for these new development to go up. As of today, no one knows when these projects will break ground.

5) The only appliance that has been questioned is the range. My dishwasher, microwave and fridge are Vikings...so are every owner in the building. The 5th Amendment clearly states that. Why we have been fighting about this boggles my mind.

7) The details of the concierge system has still not been finalized.