NYC more affordable than elsewhere in the US?

Started by Krolik
about 1 month ago
Posts: 1213
Member since: Oct 2020
Discussion about
We make so much money, but it really doesn't feel like that here. Have been looking at some suburbs, and the way I do the math, living there is not actually cheaper. Am I wrong?
We left the City for the suburbs last year. We save quite a bit on no longer paying for parking and not paying NYC income tax. We can drive and park for free in our area so we aren’t captive to City prices for shopping, though we still do plenty on line. Basic services like hair cuts, gym memberships, dog groomers, etc etc are cheaper. That being said, cost of groceries and housing is still quite high because of proximity to the City.
Some properties in Summit NJ that I looked at have a tax bill of 3-4k a month. That's almost like maintenance on a 3 br coop in Manhattan, but you still have to remove snow yourself and do yardwork.
https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/nj/summit/603-springfield-ave-104/pid_62477103/
I guess if one looks for smaller, townhouse with one car garage type properties, some more affordable ones could be found. Here is one that is decent and prop taxes are not a fortune (but still with HOA 20k per year). This one is a monthly payment of almost 10k a month plus one needs a car and car insurance on top of that. Long commute to Manhattan but there is an extra room for a live-in grandparent/nanny/au pair. If two people commuting 5x per week, that's 20 hours per week extra for the couple.
But one could rent / buy a 3br /2bath with the 10k a month budget in the city and have a shorter commute. No room for live-in nanny or au pair, so need a more expensive live out nanny, but also no need for a car.
Do NJ residents working in the city get some crazy tax savings? Does everyone in the suburbs work from home at least part of the week and/or has a stay at home spouse (so fewer person/hours are spent commuting)?
Every suburb with "good schools" near Manhattan seems to be really expensive on top of the inconvenience of an hour+ long commute.
Also, I looked at North Carolina, and decent size properties in good towns are 1.9mm+
I am not comparing per sq ft price to manhattan because I think a house needs to be bigger to account for no shared facilities (for example my apartment does not have a washer/dryer, those are elsewhere in the building, but a house needs extra sq ft to have room for a washer/dryer. Plus my apartment is next to 5 coffee shops within one block, but in a suburb, I want room for a coffee machine, etc.) In my mind a 2k square foot house is equivalent to 1.3k square foot apartment.
>>>We save quite a bit on no longer paying for parking and not paying NYC income tax.
We don't have a car and don't pay for parking now so this would not be a saving.
I need to look into the income tax aspect.
The car would actually be a new expense.
Krolik,
2000 sq ft house in burbs will live way larger than 1300 sq ft NYC apartment as in NYC burbs you typically get basement for service area like laundey and storage not included in the square footage. Then you get a yard. Sure there is an extra 300 sq ft space you need for stuff like mud room and two flights of stairs including stairs to the basement in a two floor house vs a single floor apartment. So 1300 sq ft in the city is probably 1600 sq ft suburban ignoring basement but good houses generally come much bigger than that in NYC burbs making this calculation useless.
People typically make the decision based on schools and more space including a yard for the same money. 3.8% city tax more than mitigates cars and commute cost for many people depending on the income.
Coffee shop: $7 for latte. $14 for 2 with tips. Good espresso machine at home. $3 for 2 using high-end coffee but you don't get to see the people in the coffee shop.
>>>People typically make the decision based on schools and more space including a yard for the same money.
Everything I am looking at is more space for way more money. Like double what our current housing budget is.
Like, most houses I'd consider giving up NYC for are $4mm with an exorbitant property tax, plus we'd need a car or two.
I looked at Summit, Fort Lee, Scarsdale, Chappaqua, Ardsley, New Canaan (this one would be too far for us, I think a better choice of a single earner household with a stay at home parent). I can probably expand the list, just don't know suburbs that well. Suggestions welcome.
And then I ask the question, why not Queens or Brooklyn for that much, where property taxes are very low and there are more public transit options/can get away with no car. Is NYC just more affordable overall?
Krolik,
Emotions asisde, this is what is generally comparable to a 3 bedroom 2 bath sub $1.5mm in the city but with much more space. That much space in the city will be $2mm.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2-Brook-Ln-Chappaqua-NY-10514/33066918_zpid/
Obviously, you like NYC too much (including easier commute) as to you a $3-4mm house is comparable to middle of the road Manhattan 3bed/2bath below $1.5mm. Essentially you are looking for huge housing upgrade to leave Manhattan. Most people would think $3-4mm house is way superior to anything you can get in Manhattan for below $1.5mm. That is why there is real estate market in both Manhattan as well as burbs.
Once thing I have observed is that compared to 5 years back, Manhattan on a relative basis is 25% cheaper vs burbs as most burbs are up 25-30% plus and Manhattan is unchanged. So moving to suburbs is not as cheap on relative basis as it was pre-covid.
Two people commuting to the city with busy long hours (most than 9 hours per day), high-income jobs is hard indeeed. Hence, NYC premium and people compromisng with much smaller space vs burbs.
>>>Obviously, you like NYC too much (including easier commute) as to you a $3-4mm house is comparable to middle of the road Manhattan 3bed/2bath below $1.5mm.
That is our problem. We like it here. Congestion pricing and all. The reason I think I need a gigantic house in the burbs relative to a smaller apartment in the city is because I would need to replace a lot of city amenities. Space for yoga and peloton, playroom, coffee maker, etc. I just took my kid yesterday to a playroom operated by a nonprofit for $20 for the session, and walking distance from my house. Imagine in the suburbs I'd have to build my own and buy all the toys.
Also in the city house cleaners and nannies can commute to your house by subway, whereas in suburbs I probably would need space for a live-in nanny and a car for her to take the kid to activities. But I am very tired of complex nanny logistics and a live-in nanny would be an improvement to our current situation. It is basically the single most important factor due to which we are even looking at suburbs.
But so far, suburbs math is not adding up for me.
From informal survey, most people that moved to the suburbs are either a single earner household (most of my suburban colleagues are in this situation, or the second parent works part time from home), or people that love their cars and were pissed about paying for parking in Manhattan. Since we are neither, looks like we are staying put. Public school conundrums are still a couple of years away and NYC has a public universal PreK and even 3K which might not be a thing in other states.
If I had $3-4mm to spend on this, there are suuuuper nice apartments I could buy in Manhattan.
@Krolik - you enjoy the city, so enjoy it. You don't need to create fictional comparisons to justify your preferences. Obviously a 20 minute walking commute to work 5 days per week for 2 working spouses compares favorably to any suburban commute.
If you cherry pick one of the most expensive suburbs (Summit, NJ) and compare to a hood/unit type (UES Coops) we've been discussing have been in a bear market for 10+ years, then yeah the city looks cheap. A $3-4M Manhattan place would be nice, but take a look at the monthlies that come with.
You're generally gonna get 2x the space for similar dollars outside the city. I think you can fit a measly peloton and yoga matt in the extra 1000-1500 sq ft of space. Do you really not own a coffee maker currently? I own like 3 in my small condo.
If you've never lived in the burbs, you don't understand just how much we get ripped off in NYC for literally everything. Dining, grocer, haircuts, veterinary visits, massage/spa services, gym memberships, and especially any repair/renovation contractors you need periodically.
My daily burn rate in the city is 2x what it is when I'm outside the city. YMMV.
A lot of things that are rare or even unattainable luxuries are extremely middle class amenities in the burbs - in-home gigantic washer/dryer, gigantic fridge/freezer, garbage disposal, actual full size stove/oven, multiple levels which is nice for sound isolation, multi-zone AC & heat.
Re: snow & yard work, I dunno maybe $5k per year, it's not a fortune. My landscaping costs at my not-city 1acre plot house are lower than what my BK condo pays to some ripoff hipster landscaper to maintain 4 sidewalk planters, some potted plants in lobby&roof deck, and keep up a .. 1500 sq ft courtyard.
I don't see why a nanny wouldn't be able to have a car, they aren't a luxury outside NYC. Lease/insurance costs are like $400/mo, or they own some 20 year old beater and the minimum legal insurance so it's like $150/mo.
To me a lot of this reads as "I love the subway so much, if I had a car I'd need a Rolls Royce and private driver, which is very expensive." You do you, but this is not an unbiased comparison.
Steve,
I think for Krolik and many other both working long hours city dwellers, this is huge unquantifiable $ value. Then there is cultural stuff, bakeries, restaurants where individual milage varies a lot. It is completely understandable. And coffee maker takes 3-4 sq ft of space with a fancy machine. Nespresso is just 1 sq ft.
Everything in burbs is indeed cheaper and there are good amenities in decent size burbs. Pools, tennis courts access etc are sheer luxury in NYC. In burbs not so much.
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Obviously a 20 minute walking commute to work 5 days per week for 2 working spouses compares favorably to any suburban commute.
To add, some of us feel that suburbs is a very lonely existence unless you have multiple kids running around. We are very lucky to have these choices. For most people, living in good parts of city or in a nice suburb is just not an option. They make do with what they can afford and deal with long commute, a lack of amenities, poor public schools etc.
>>>Dining, grocer, haircuts, veterinary visits, massage/spa services, gym memberships, and especially any repair/renovation contractors you need periodically.
I actually think dining and massages in the city are relatively affordable and much higher quality relative to the rest of the country. But then I am mostly comparing to other cities like Miami, Chicago or Seattle or expensive places like Palo Alto so maybe this is all much cheaper in Summit.
I shop online for groceries, so while NYC supermarkets are a rip off, I am managing this situation okay. Where I think suburbs are much better is price of daycare. Also contractors are getting away with murder in NYC. Also a live-in nanny would be super helpful in case of overnight work travel.
Problem is I know where to optimize my city expenses, but not suburbs. So I am comparing a highly cost optimized carless city existence to something where I don't know where to begin to optimize.
>>>Re: snow & yard work, I dunno maybe $5k per year, it's not a fortune.
Helpful to know, thanks.
>>>My daily burn rate in the city is 2x what it is when I'm outside the city. YMMV.
Is that because there is nowhere to go/nothing to do in nowhere? Or are you actually getting half price coffee and massages?
>>>Do you really not own a coffee maker currently? I own like 3 in my small condo.
I just bought a small Keurig machine with pods because I was going to save on coffee expenses. My nanny uses it. I still walk to the coffee shop to spend $7 because I like getting out of the apartment and seeing people.
Maybe if I had a mansion I would enjoy staying home, using a gigantic coffee machine, and spending more time on social media or something. Or maybe I would miss the coffee shop experience.
I also looked at North Carolina as well as Palm Beach, Austin, Miami and a few more spots where I don't even know if I could get a similarly high paying job, but I've heard some hype that there might be something for us to do. I find all the real estate in good school neighborhoods is over $1mm. In FL might be a bit less than that in suburbia, but then there are insurance costs.
For example, in Cary NC, apparently the price point for nice houses close to center of town are 1.9mm+. The average price there is 700k but most those cheaper houses are very basic on the inside, in areas with zero walkability. Are there even jobs there that would pay enough to afford the nicer places?
@300 - of course its all preferences, and I do appreciate you at least posting some reasonable cost compares for Krolik
I think expensive NYC living is something of a golden cage where some people substitute highly consumptive urban living for having hobbies. A lot of what people describe to me about being better about NYC living is all consumption - dining, attending shows, going to concerts, buying $7 coffees, etc.
There's a wide gap between keurig/nespresso & daily $7 coffees. Have a look at pour over at home or a Moccamaster, neither take up a lot of space or cost much money.
My burn rate in the city is higher bc I spend more time consuming and less time producing. It's not that there's nothing to consumer in the burbs - it's that I have space for hobbies that are not an hourly cash burn. Things like gardening, photography, dabbling in electronic music, and photography. I outfitted a spare bedroom with $10k of gym equipment instead of spending $800/mo for wife&I to go to equinox. You can get an in-home massage in the burbs for half of what an equinox massage costs.
Some of that is doable in the city in diminished form, some of it I don't have space for here. One synthesizer takes up as much space as a coffee shop multi-head espresso setup no one would have at home. A decent printer is the same. My home office at my house is 800 sq ft.
City consumption is much higher. I walk out the door and it reminds me of the old analog taxi meter except it's incrementing in $100s instead of $1s.
It is exceptionally easy to spend $100-150/head dining out here now, for utterly forgettable meals, even without a drink. I had an outstanding brunch recently, no drinks, but also no white table cloth/suit&tie that was somehow $100/head. I'm going out for sushi nearby that recently got its Michelin star, hope it's good cuz it's $200/head before tax/tip/drinks.
Wife & I had some nice ramen delivered last night in the cold, $100.
I don't go into the office anymore, but my wife does and tells me its not hard to somehow spend $20-30 for grab&go at places like Pret or Le Pain Quotidien now.
I use FreshDirect for primary grocery whether here or at my house. My local food market has lots of interesting things but I also walk out with a backpack worth of non-necessary groceries for $200 (oh and their POS asks for tips).
On the weekends in the city I'm constantly taking $50 Ubers because the subway has gone to crap.
Also again re: relative spend on dining out
We cook way more outside the city because we can, again due to space.
Compared to NYC, our fridge/freezer is 2x the size, my dry goods storage is probably 3x, pots/pans space 3x, counter space probably 3x, dining table 2x, etc. We have every gizmo, in full size, you could possibly need and many you don't.
So it's easy to have the raw materials and equipment on hand, plus the counter space to do all the prep work without getting in each others way. I can do the dishes/fill/empty the dishwasher without interrupting my wife using the stove.
In my BK place, and most everywhere I've lived or seen in the city under 2000 sq ft, you generally have fridge/dishwasher/stove door clashes or using them blocks the flow in the galley kitchen enough to be disruptive. And generally those appliances are slightly or dramatically reduced size. Then the reduced counter space leads to buying mini versions of small appliances like toast ovens, etc.
>>>Compared to NYC, our fridge/freezer is 2x the size, my dry goods storage is probably 3x, pots/pans space 3x, counter space probably 3x, dining table 2x, etc. We have every gizmo, in full size, you could possibly need and many you don't.
That sounds like quite a bit of consumption to me! in a different form
Another funny only-in-NY story.
We were meeting family for Thanksgiving on the weekend and so were on our own day-of. Given space /cooking for 2 reasons, we figured we'd go out to eat.
Went to the Tin Building, Jean Georges place for his thanksgiving special dinner, something like $200/head prix-fix.
First, way understaffed so 30 minute gaps between courses. Second, they ran out of half the menu before the last seating. Third, by dessert they only had 1 option left which I can't eat due to dietary restrictions but they refused to let my wife take hers in a to-go box (which they had) so we could get out of there instead of me watching her eat another 30 minutes.
All this for a meal equivalent to a months lease payment on a pretty nice BMW or Mercedes sedan.
In Miami I can make a same day reservation at Carbone or Cote, and won't have my watch stolen on the sidewalk in front of it ;-)
So its always two sides of the same coin with NYC.
You're right I don't have access to Jean Georges restaurant in nowhere.
However, in nowhere the Jean Georges of the world don't have access to my wallet.
@Krolik - Cary NC prices seem pretty out of whack but I do know it was a nearshore spot for a lot of NY banks 10 years ago. Could be local market was too small for the number of not-NY-pay-but-still-a-lot jobs moved there.
Miami - $1M is still less than your $1.5M unit and don't forget you save the 12% or so NYS+NYC income taxes you are paying. Last I looked since I can work there or NYC, I could trade my BK condo for one with 1 extra bed/bath, +300 sq ft, a water view terrace, and free parking with pool for same cost... walking distance to work.
I lived in Miami for two years and I did like it although we ended up moving back to NY/CA. It was not a cost issue, definitely living in Miami was much less expensive than nyc and San Francisco, in Miami we had a 2 bed, 3 bath (I had never lived in ANY house with 3 bathrooms!!) condo, 2 floors below penthouse, wraparound terrace with stunning city views, at a cost $200k LESS than our tiny 1 bed, 1 bath nyc condo. Same price as our one bed, one bath condo in San Francisco. Condo fees were reasonable given the high level of amenities. I found Miami locals pretty friendly, although a working knowledge of Spanish very helpful. Although almost everything is cheaper in Florida, keep in mind both your home insurance and car insurance will be WAY more in Miami. We left for a couple reasons, for me, as a competitive long distance runner, I just could not deal with the constant heat and humidity. Dec-February is fantastic in Miami but the rest of the year, running in the sweltering conditions just wore me down. My partner, who loves museums, fine dining, culture in general, found Miami severely lacking compared to nyc. She just got bored of the city. She says she cannot imagine ever getting bored in NYC. Although we did very well selling our condo after only two years of ownership, we were fortunate with the timing and going back, if you aren’t very familiar with Miami and Florida in general, I would definitely recommend renting first. But I do miss Miami sometimes, the palm trees, and the tropical “smell” and “feel” of it. It’s just not a good place to train for a marathon!!
@911 - what time period were you in Miami? The COVID boom has really changed it. Mostly the dining has drastically improved. Also a palpable sense of improvement everywhere you look they are building infrastructure, housing, offices, etc at a much higher rate than NYC.
A lot of access to nature/whatever/air but agree it is a much smaller city. One hour flights to most of the Caribbean is nice, but flights to Asia/Europe are about 2~3 hours longer.
100% agreed I couldn't do Miami full-time, but then again I am finding winters in NYC harder and harder every year. I understand why people become snowbirds. I suppose San Fran helps you there.
Steve, East Village good restaurant would have fed you for $75 per head plus drinks and tips. More or less the same price as a NYC good burb.
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Went to the Tin Building, Jean Georges place for his thanksgiving special dinner, something like $200/head prix-fix.
Steve, BTW, what are your top retirement town recommendations in CT (min 15,000 population which is not declining) for less than $1mm for 2500 sq ft nicely renovated house with <$15k taxes/HOA together.
@300 - If I had to/wanted to get into city regularly I'd try to make Westport/Fairfield/Southport/nice parts of Norwalk work. If that was less of a concern, I'd go out towards the burbs of New Haven. You'd have the college town culture around Yale for dining/culture, and significantly cheaper than the former area I mentioned.
I had a friend who lived walking distance to the beach in Madison - Clinton area, which seemed mildly affluent. He was dragging us to random tag sales where people had Aeron chairs and real midcentury modern furniture, but it's far from the city so it wasn't getting immediately picked over to flip online. The further east in CT you go, the more New England vibe you get..
This ain't bad, and looking thru the photos theres a nice little walkable downtown there.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/6-Cambridge-Dr-6-Madison-CT-06443/443080510_zpid/
Be careful with those HOA fees they can get you ($25/mo)
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/9-Bassett-Ln-Madison-CT-06443/58907877_zpid/
Or you could live on the water, with an income-producing duplex on the lot
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/176-Shore-Rd-Clinton-CT-06413/57843935_zpid/
Kind of a neat old New England 1800s restored mansion/farmhouse vibe on this one
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/407-Grove-Beach-Rd-N-Westbrook-CT-06498/200403035_zpid/
On the Westport side of things, this is kind of wild
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3-Concord-Ln-Westport-CT-06880/177218033_zpid/
>>>The COVID boom has really changed [Miami]. Mostly the dining has drastically improved. Also a palpable sense of improvement everywhere you look they are building infrastructure, housing, offices, etc at a much higher rate than NYC.
Also made is a lot more expensive. I hear public schools aren't great vs NYC, and now there is more competition to get into a private school.
Regarding Cary, I think there are a lot of tech jobs there. It's an economically booming area with good schools, but with limited exiting public transit infrastructure. I was looking at town center that's walkable, near some train that goes to other towns, etc and that location was pricier than outskirts of town. Median price in Cary is closer to $680k but that's still a lot more than the US average.
US Census stats show HH incomes are comparable in Manhattan and Cary, though households in Cary are larger in size and Manhattan has more inequality. Specifically:
Wake county (where Cary is): Median HH income, $102k ($53k per person, 7% in poverty)
New York county (Manhattan): HH income, $105k ($95k per person, 17% in poverty)
Steve, Thank you. So Eastern CT seems to be where the deals are as you can't commute into the city or in Western CT.
I like Westbrook listing. Very nice indeed. Also, Westport one. Personally for me, I probably like your suggestion of New Haven burbs due to college town energy if commuting into the city is not required.
@steve123
We were in Miami from about 2020-2022. Covid definitely helped us making a nice profit on selling our condo. You’re right…we basically traded Miami for San Francisco for an escape from nyc winters. Even though I’m a Canadian, I can’t deal with winter in the Big Apple
That was a lot of CT towns that I have not looked at, but probably too far for commuters.
Any suggestions of suburbs that are cheaper than Summit, have good schools and a reasonable commute to Manhattan and to an airport?
Montclair and Glen Ridge are both pretty nice, good schools, reasonable commute to Manhatten. Not sure if they are that much less expensive than Summit. I’m guessing based on the criteria of good schools, Jersey City is out but you can’t get much closer to Manhatten and it’s definitely cheaper than those other 3 NJ towns. Maybe there are some good private schools in Jersey City
Bergen county certainly has some cheaper towns than Summit
Also, for those who enjoy subway commuting -
https://gothamist.com/news/a-state-of-collapse-how-the-mta-put-riders-on-the-fast-track-to-ruin
“Internal MTA records obtained by Gothamist and the agency’s public data reveal that service breakdowns are on pace to become more frequent in 2025 than during New York’s infamous “summer of hell” in 2017, when the subway’s reliability fell to its lowest level in decades. “
@krolik - I share your preference for NYC. I'd rather live in a studio in NYC (or SF) than a mansion elsewhere. With that said, I am shocked at how our Short North existence in Columbus, OH is giving me the city flavor that I love about NYC at a fraction of the cost. Come check it out - very good things happening here. The energy is awesome.
What is the point of working so damn hard and much to basically just exist? Curious if this was your plan while in grad school? And I don't mean this to be a snippety comment, I'm genuinely curious what you think the payoff here is? Is that what life has come to, access to "good" restaurants and a reasonable commute to work? All my years in New York City I always wondered how many people were truly taking advantage of the cultural richness of the city. How many were just slaving away trying to get home before 8 pm to have dinner?
I sort of feel bad for the aspirational wealthy set in this city, especially in this particular time when everything's gotten so damn expensive. You're making incredible money relative to most of the population. Only to struggle to afford the purchase of a pretty vanilla apartment, in a vanilla neighborhood while trying to afford a nanny etc.
I look at my my suburban neighbors, living in a comfortable house, in a beautiful neighborhood with access to all sorts of sports, amenities, clubs, restaurants and good schools. Life is generally pretty good, and they're probably making half of what you make. My 12-year-old rides to school on her bicycle with four other friends.
I think I'm remembering this correctly, 30 might be able to chime in to confirm whether my theory was correct? Back in the '80s and '90s. I remember people more or less so that wild oats in Manhattan when they got out of college and got their first job for 4 to 7 years. Once they got married, we're on that path They made plans to get out of the city, became commuters got the house and the kids etc.
I very very very rarely remember couples. that were planning to have families calling me about two or three bedroom apartments??
Just some random thoughts after reading all these comments.
Keith,
What changed is more women working in high paid busy jobs making living in the burbs commuting for two instead of commuting for one and crime clean up of the late 80s and early 90s.
And people are getting married much later in high powered jobs. Then there is significant increase in non-US born high earning people who have a preference for the cities.
I’ve always felt cities like nyc and San Francisco were best for two types of people: the ultra wealthy who have so much money, they can live anywhere they want, and the very poor/homeless. At least in San Francisco, the homeless are “relatively “ taken care of courtesy of the taxpayers and poorer people can at least apply for subsidies and benefits. The middle class is in the middle, basically screwed by increasing costs and taxes and declining services like public transportation. They make too much money to get any public assistance but not enough to afford a truly nice home, private schools or security/staff to escort them around and do their daily errands. I don’t think it’s just better schools that drive the middle class out of cities. I think they look around and really question is this all worth it to live here? Well that’s just my theory based on my observation and experience and maybe I’m completely wrong!
@Keith
> All my years in New York City I always wondered how many people were truly taking advantage of the cultural richness of the city. How many were just slaving away trying to get home before 8 pm to have dinner?
Most people I know take minimal advantage of the any cultural richness that is unique to NYC and not available elsewhere. A lot of it is over the top expensive dining, which is a Veblen good.
By 30s and especially 40s, even the people who stayed in the city are in far flung hoods so we end up meeting, often, after work in midtown.
Not terribly different than the commuter set other than we can meet up slightly more often. But that is more of a function of whether they have young kids or not.
I think for people who have maybe 0-5 year olds, squeezing into an apartment in NYC a little longer can make a lot of sense as I saw my dad friends do this and were home before the kids were in bed every night. A 90 minute commute takes that away.
@911 - some truth there, for varying definitions of upper/middle class.
Being in NYC at the high end pays well, but then competition for resources chews up a lot of the compensation premium. And on top of high local/state taxes, your federal taxes are significantly higher because being paid 2x to afford to live here puts you in a worse income tax bracket. If we moved to South Florida we'd be able to upgrade housing and my wife could stop working. If I had to commute full-time to an office again I think I'd make that move rather than moving back to Manhattan, on a cost-benefit analysis.
I feel like there is some consensus that NYC without children and NYC with children are two very different existences. My parents were doing well in the 60's, but not well enough to raise their kids in the city. Both of them missed Manhattan sorely and are very open about the fact that it was simply financially prohibitive for them to raise us in the city. Consistent with that, my friends that grew up in NYC (whom I met through school) grew up with next level money.
You are probably not "living well" because you are socking away money at a decent rate.
While this is the way to go, it's not even an option available to the middle class. You feel like you're not "living better" now, but ten years down the road, when you have a nice featherbed of retirement savings and money in the college fund(s), you will have a lot less everyday worry than most people.
In terms of city vs. suburbs, city "wins" with one kid while with two it's a wash, and basically a lifestyle choice. Suburbs "win" with three or more kids (IMHO.)
I did it both ways, raised two kids in NYC in the '80s and '90s, who are now adults. Hit the reset button many years later, have a 12-year-old who is growing up in South Florida, which is supplemented with quite a bit of travel, including spending most of the summer in Europe. The kids that grew up in the city, they wouldn't have had it any other way. The kiddo here in South Florida thinks New York is extremely stinky and dirty, prefers to stay in Hoboken when we visit : )
And going back to the olden times when I was making my bones in NYC, we had a variety of friends. Many of them with rent stabilized apartments, raising kids in small railroad homes and sending them to public schools in the village. I guess you could say I knew a lot of people that lived a bit outside of the box, and made do with what they had because they wanted to live in NYC.
I live in nowhere and there's much less to spend your money on here.
Reading these comments it sounds like a lot of people put a very high value on dining out and that and taxes are where their money is going. Private schools if they have kids.
>>> I'd rather live in a studio in NYC (or SF) than a mansion elsewhere.
@MCR I thought I could buy a mansion in suburbs with NYC 2br money. But turns out, mansions in good school districts are exorbitantly expensive and actually cost a lot more than a 2br in the city.
>>>Most people I know take minimal advantage of the any cultural richness that is unique to NYC and not available elsewhere. A lot of it is over the top expensive dining, which is a Veblen good.
@Steve so we don't go to Broadway shows or the Met too often. However, my partner takes a weekly instrument lesson from a conservatory professor who also teaches at Julliard/NYU/MSM for under $100 per lesson. I don't think this is available in the suburbs. Or maybe there are Julliard professors in the suburbs. Or maybe there are? This is one of the questions we are trying to answer.
I don't dine out at expensive places often, but the taco place and the Chinese place on our block are both pretty decent quality, and one of our out of town guests commented they have not seen cheaper tacos anywhere but in Mexico.
The massages at Equinox are super expensive, but the massages in Chinatown are very cheap. Both in NYC.
And in suburbs you'd have to own more stuff.
>>>In terms of city vs. suburbs, city "wins" with one kid while with two it's a wash, and basically a lifestyle choice. Suburbs "win" with three or more kids (IMHO.)
@FP I think this is going to be my conclusion. Also suburbs probably "win" with single commuter households.
>>>I did it both ways, raised two kids in NYC in the '80s and '90s, who are now adults.
I think NYC real estate has appreciated a lot since then, so as a result what you did in the nineties required a way, way different budget.
>>>Many of them with rent stabilized apartments
I'd love me one of those, but they are not really available to new arrivals
>>>Curious if this was your plan while in grad school?
When I applied to grad school I did not know this job exists or how much it pays... but overall it has worked out.
Also, I had a lot of student loans, so a lower paying job would mean trouble paying them off. And higher paid jobs are mostly in HCOL areas. A high paying NYC job before kids while living in a studio/1br is a solid plan for student loan debt.
K, I don't know you well, but if I had to pick a suburb for you it would be Scarsdale. There are a lot of competitive parents, but they're nice people, there's a nice town pool, it's easy to get into the City, you are paying high property taxes but you're getting good schools...
>but in a suburb, I want room for a coffee machine, etc.
Amen.
Thanks, FP. When/if I have more kids, I will definitely seriously consider a move to suburbia and will look at Scarsdale! I do occasionally look, and there are always no more than 1-2 homes on the market there at any one time.
So I looked at Census stats from about 2 years ago, and Scarsdale has a median HH income of $250k+, and a median house value over $2.5mm
In Summit NJ a median income is just under $200k and median house under $2mm
But there seems to be a technical issue in Summit: there is no supply at all (like only 2-5 homes on the market) resulting in super steep appreciation recently.
So maybe I am just looking at the wrong places. I'll have to check other towns suggested here to see if there is a better deal in another suburb.
I mean not to sound critical and judgy, but you really think you have the finances for Scarsdale or summit? I guess to each his own, but I've always taken the good advice of my grandfather to live significantly below my means. What this has done is giving me the ability to save quite a bit of money, nice perks like flying business class, very nice stress-free, vacations, etc. or else maybe I'm just a little cheap? Technically yes I can afford a $2 million house, you'd have to put a gun to my head to get me to commit to such an expense!
What about towns like nutley, New Jersey? Regular Montclair, Maplewood, New Jersey, hasbrook heights, New Jersey, Rutherford, New Jersey? I don't understand the need to go from very vanilla mediocre, Manhattan neighborhood and apartment building to some idea of a McMansion in suburbia? There are also a lot of other nice towns in Connecticut and New Jersey where you can get a very nice house for $1.5 milish. And it will be significantly more room than what you currently have, , with a nice yard in a nice community with good schools and an easy commute. And then you'll have money for all these other things that you want like Nanny's etc..
>>>I've always taken the good advice of my grandfather to live significantly below my means. What this has done is giving me the ability to save quite a bit of money, nice perks like flying business class, very nice stress-free, vacations, etc.
Flying business class is a lot of spending, you are just shifted it from one period in life to another. I think my time to spend is now, when I have a child under 5yo.
Our income is much, much higher than the median in Summit, but I suspect most of current residents bought houses before they became this expensive.
>>> I don't understand the need to go from very vanilla mediocre, Manhattan neighborhood and apartment building to some idea of a McMansion in suburbia?
The idea was a little extra room for us and a room for a live in nanny. Right now if both of us travel for business, it is a scramble to find someone to stay with the baby overnight.
I looked at Scarsdale and Summit because these are well known areas and I have colleagues that live there. I will investigate other towns. But I also really like my mediocre apartment in Manhattan and short commute, so maybe I need to think of another nanny solution.
The median income of scarsdale and summit is relatively meaningless when you put it against current home prices. I think if you have a seven-figure income Scarsdale makes sense or a town like summit etc. If you don't, then I just think it's just trying to flex, but if that's your thing then that's your thing.
Sure, in Scarsdale and summit pretty much all of your neighbors will be pretty one-dimensional, attorney, banker, cardiologist.... When you broaden your search and don't get so hung up on labels, so to speak you find very nice diverse communities. Let's take a town like nutley, where I grew up. You have people that work in manufacturing jobs, teachers living there among many other moderately paid professionals. But you also have the other side as a spectrum, surgeons, lawyers, bankers etc that work locally or commute into Manhattan. Just something to consider, and you'll save 50% on not only taxes but also the purchase price of a home if not more.
Nobody's living comfortably in Upper Montclair, or Short hills or summit or Scarsdale on a $400,000 income... Or anything close to those median incomes?.
So that's was my point when I started this thread: suburbs aren't actually cheaper than NYC. Many people are comfortable in Manhattan on 400k income but not in Scarsdale or Summit apparently.
I think at this point we are talking past each other, but simply put - If you cherry pick 2 suburbs that are the most expensive, yes.
Now compare the most expensive suburbs vs new dev Manhattan condos / SoHo lofts / etc.
Or compare UES non-5th ave/park coops to similarly middle-brow suburbs in NY/NJ/CT.
Jersey City/Hoboken, or Edgewater/Cliffside/Leonia area, or Pelham/Larchmont/Mamaroneck/New Rochelle, or Stamford/Noroton/Rowayton/etc.
To echo some of the comments, there are definitely less expensive and, at least in my eyes, very pleasant towns in New Jersey that are not Summit and Alpine. I frequently run road races in New Jersey so I get a chance to visit many of them. Nutley was mentioned which I like, Jersey city/Hoboken, Weehawken, West New York, Roselle, Edison, etc…many of these towns are definitely more working class but for me that would be a plus, I don’t want to live surrounded by bankers, surgeons, lawyers, etc. For me, if its NYC or Summit and nothing else, I would stay in NYC until I make a lot more money. The median house price is a useless statistic, you’ll never find that “median” house available in Summit since there is so much competition from other buyers. New Jersey really is a wonderful little state once you get to know it, I guess it has a bad reputation because for most people, all they know of New Jersey is Newark airport, and that area is definitely pretty ugly!
There certainly are quite a number of options. Steve, I guess that's what my point is. I was wondering why krolic is so hung up on two of the most expensive zip codes in New York and New Jersey? However, I'm also showing my natural propensity to live significantly below my means, I even did that to the best of my ability when I was relatively poor by New York City standards. To each his own said the farmer who kissed the cow....
I should actually say my natural bias
Krolik needs a premium over current market pricing in burbs vs Manhattan to give up the liking / familiarity / conveniece of Manhattan for her family. Every one has their own calculations of this premium and for some people it may be negative. There are people with family in NJ, they don't like the city, one commute, want a big yard, not dealing with NYC school system, etc. So they may put a premium to live in NJ over Manhattan.
My guess going by the comments from Krolik is that her current premium number is $1mm-$2mm over market pricing of real estate. So it is unlikely she is going to move especially her current low rate mortgage and being happy in well-priced Mid-town east.
>>>I was wondering why Krolik is so hung up on two of the most expensive zip codes in New York and New Jersey?
Because I don't know suburbs and these specific towns were recommended by my colleagues who all seem to live in these two towns, as well as in Chappaqua, NY, Fort Lee, NJ, and New Canaan, CT.
I excluded New Canaan because we have two people commuting 5x per week. It appears that people in the further away suburbs have only one person commuting, and often fewer than 5 times per week. For example, I have two colleagues that sit next to me who are both in New Canaan. One of them has a stay at home wife. The second one has a work from home wife and has been lamenting today that there are no full day daycares in New Canaan for his 5yo kid. NONE! Apparently, all the daycares are just 9am to noon, catering to the housewives of New Canaan. I was just shocked that a 5yo was not in public school kindergarten.
Meanwhile in NYC we have universal Pre-K and even universal 3K now. There is one a block from my house, I think it is 8:30 to 3pm, and free, and you can pay a bit extra for an afterschool program. So counterintuitively, NYC might actually be a more affordable place...
>>> If you cherry pick 2 suburbs that are the most expensive, yes.
Now compare the most expensive suburbs vs new dev Manhattan condos / SoHo lofts / etc.
@Steve you are mixing location and finishes. I don't live in a new construction condo. I am happy in a recently renovated doorman 50s coop in midtown east. I am next to an A+ rated public elementary and few good private schools (like the UN one that MCR suggested to me).
I would trade this for a recently renovated older house in a well-located suburb with good schools.
But you are suggesting I should compare to a new build in a location with worse schools and/or even longer commute?
Edison NJ was a good suggestion, thanks @911turbo. Not all schools are great but there are a few good ones. The commute is longer than to Summit but not by a huge margin. House prices are less than half of those in Summit.
"Now compare the most expensive suburbs vs new dev Manhattan condos / SoHo lofts / etc."
@Krolik - what I am saying here is that if your universe of "acceptable suburb" is $4M homes, then you should have been cross shopping that with SoHo lofts and new dev condos.
That is - if you are shopping the caviar of suburbs then you should compare that to the caviar of Manhattan real estate.
A 50s coop in midtown east cross shops more with a Stamford / Teaneck / Fort Lee etc.
I mean even Chappaqua has giant, move-in ready, under-$2M homes, none of this mandatory $4M stuff you are talking.
house
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/19-Random-Farms-Cir-Chappaqua-NY-10514/33063307_zpid/
townhouse
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/22-Dewitt-Dr-Chappaqua-NY-10514/439710795_zpid/
Here's a neat smaller place in Mt Kisko for well under $1M
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/64-N-Moger-Ave-Mount-Kisco-NY-10549/33105541_zpid/
Plus side is you can walk to train and be in Grand Central in 75 minutes.
Down side is you live near the train tracks/station so I'm sure you'd hear it.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/19-Random-Farms-Cir-Chappaqua-NY-10514/33063307_zpid/ - this house checks all boxes except too far from the train station and walk score 6 out of 100.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/22-Dewitt-Dr-Chappaqua-NY-10514/439710795_zpid/
not sure which pictures are applicable but all gorgeous. Not a fit because we would need minimum 4 bedrooms. Although I am not sure how this house only has 3 brs with so many square feet.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/64-N-Moger-Ave-Mount-Kisco-NY-10549/33105541_zpid/
again, only 3 bedrooms. This house has 219 saves after 4 days on zillow which goes to show how competitive suburban housing market is. And not that many options on the market.
I already have three bedrooms in Manhattan: a large 2br apartment + a studio we bought in the same building that we use as guest room / office (about 1750 sq ft combined space). We need 4 bedrooms minimum otherwise we are not actually getting more space.
>>> if you are shopping the caviar of suburbs then you should compare that to the caviar of Manhattan real estate.
I have my own set of criteria which I am comparing against :-)
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/148-Division-Ave-Summit-NJ-07901/40068675_zpid/
This is certainly more than an upgrade to midtown east $1.2-1.3mm coop apartment.
Cute Summit house, though 45-minute walk to the train station is a no go (assuming its even safe to walk there).
https://www.redfin.com/NY/Scarsdale/25-Grand-Blvd-10583/home/20147864
I think this could work. 15 minutes to the train station. At least it is $2mm and not $4mm. What would the budget look like vs. Manhattan?
I think in most of these suburban towns in NJ, NY and CT you are considering, it will be safer to walk on the streets than Manhatten. I’m surprised any house in Summit is a 45 mins walk from the train station but it guess Summit is more “spread out” than I thought, and I guess the REALLY pricey homes are the ones within 15-20 mins walk of the train station. Not sure if you own a car, but if you did, you maybe able to expand your search by looking at towns that have a reasonable drive to a train station. Of course, you have to consider parking. My understanding is that many of the parking lots in these train stations have absolutely no parking available
Meant safer to walk THAN in the streets on Manhatten…
We've recently handled a few sales in the Westchester area, it's been pretty brutal, multiple bids on pretty much everything we have submitted offers on. And typically at least in my experience, most of these deals have been done in cash and in many cases significantly over asking prices.
It's also one thing looking at Zillow and another thing actually getting boots on the ground in some of these neighborhoods and walking through these homes. Although $2 million might seem like a bargain for home in summit or Scarsdale, You most likely will not be willing to fork over that kind of money just because you can afford something. You're definitely going to need to emotionally connect to it, and it's going to have to make sense on a lot of other levels as well. And this is just something you cannot get a feel for from your computer screen.
>>>safer to walk THAN in the streets on Manhattan…
The threat is cars and absence of sidewalks. Not homeless people or criminals. I look at distance and walkability scores.
>>>My understanding is that many of the parking lots in these train stations have absolutely no parking available
Also my understanding, which is why a potentially walkable distance to the train is a must have.
“The threat is cars and absence of sidewalks. Not homeless people or criminals. I look at distance and walkability scores”
Now I understand. Yes having lived in big cities all my life I find it odd to see houses on a street with no sidewalks. And especially walking at night with limited visibility, I can see it’s not desirable. When running on a road I always run against traffic so at least I can see the cars if they don’t see me but a 45 mins twice a day hike on a desolate street/road with no sidewalk is not great. A plus side is maybe you could save on not buying a gym membership with all the extra calories you’re burning!
>>>That is - if you are shopping the caviar of suburbs then you should compare that to the caviar of Manhattan real estate.
But I am not even comparing with the caviar in Scarsdale and Summit. Both of these towns do have plenty of really nice 7mm+ mansions on the market that I did not consider, just like I did not consider a massive new build condo in Manhattan. I was just trying to find a price point for a property that satisfies my minimal criteria.
https://www.sothebysrealty.com/eng/sales/detail/180-l-84637-h6334443
@steve123 If you've never lived in the burbs, you don't understand just how much we get ripped off in NYC for literally everything. Dining, grocer, haircuts, veterinary visits, massage/spa services, gym memberships, and especially any repair/renovation contractors you need periodically.
In most cases I don't think it's a rip-off (ie artificially inflated or price-gouging). They just have high overhead (ie rent). And the minimum wage in NYC is higher (due to residential rents). I believe that's where a large percentage of your $50 haircut is going - straight to landlords.
@Krolik Maplewood is a charming little community with a small, self-containted commercial district. I don't know if there are sidewalks but the place below is about a 25 min walk to the train station and then it's another half hour to Manhattan.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/27-Warren-Rd-Maplewood-NJ-07040/38673919_zpid/
A little more downmarket:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/153-Parker-Ave-Maplewood-NJ-07040/52636102_zpid/
I have a friend who lives there with her family - I forget when they bought - years ago. They love it.
@MTH - 100% rent & wagers are A factor, but thats not the totality. There is also a huge "because we can" / "you people are rich enough" markup.
Anecdote - Out in nowhere I live on the border of a fancy town & not fancy town. The vendors even agreeing to come out & the quotes they give vary depending on which town name I give.
Don't think rich NYC is any different. If you think a plumber gives the same quote to a Williamsburg new dev condo owner as they do to landlord in Crown Heights, you are deluding yourself.
Also, re:$50 haircuts.. few & far between in N BK these days, more like $75 + tax + tip and you might as well round it to $100 all-in.
Steve, Big reasons for cost difference are insurance, licensed plumber, difficult work rule requirement by the condos vs landlords being happy to use unlicensed plumbers without insurance. Then the homeowners can be pain in the ass to deal with (get quotes etc; pay via check) - so there is customer service premium included. Then there is travel time vs a plumber who may live nearby in Crown Heights.
--------------
Don't think rich NYC is any different. If you think a plumber gives the same quote to a Williamsburg new dev condo owner as they do to landlord in Crown Heights, you are deluding yourself.
MTH, Appx 30% of the rent in NYC goes to Real Estate taxes. In absolute $ per sq ft term, Manhattan is probably paying 2-5x the taxes of a suburban commercial space.
Steve, Unlicensed uninsured plumber will charge $300 cash for the day. Licensed plumber working for a plumbing company at least $100 per hour with billing, booking support etc.
https://qbhouseusa.com/
$35 haircut men and ladies. Many locations. I like these people.
I was going to say the same thing about haircuts. My partner gets $30 + tip cuts in a barbershop in Midtown Manhattan two blocks from our building. But any fancier salon in this neighborhood wants at least $90 for a women's cut.
I found "my" hair person few years ago, and she currently works in Brooklyn. She is way better than more expensive stylists I tried at neighborhood salons in Midtown. So I travel over 1h each way to get this service and pay like around $300 each time (with tip) to maintain my (totally natural, of course) hair color. Nowadays, add 5 hours of babysitter time on top. Luckily, I don't need to do this frequently.
>>> Appx 30% of the rent in NYC goes to Real Estate taxes.
Yes. I never realized this when I was renting. NYC's high level of services are paid largely by property taxes. None of the suburbs offer a free 3K and only some offer a free pre-K.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5RLuo8O2h5/?igsh=bjgyZ29nMGtucnpp
$7 haircuts
My in-laws get $0 haircuts, once you get over the cap-ex for a FlowBee, but to each their own.
$233 cap-ex for Flowbee? That’s for the rich and famous:
https://www.facebook.com/JimmyKimmelLive/videos/george-clooney-cuts-his-hair-with-a-flowbee/740263856846087/
A Wahl is sufficient.
Couldn't resist.
https://david-mallett.com/en/salons/new-york/
In 2005 when I was visiting friends in the city, they lamented my hair and got me in to see Paul Podlucky in time for the events scheduled for the weekend. The instructed me to give him free rein, which I did.
$700 later, I had a pixie that was universally panned (but truth be told, I loved it).
These days I literally cut my hair myself (which you can tell, but if the best stylists cannot make it look good, I am fine not bothering at all).
On the other hand, I really miss the excellence of NY manicures every five feet that cost me half of what similar service costs me here in Nowhere.
I also miss diners. Excellent healthy and filling meal at my favorite diner (Morningstar on 2nd Ave around 50th) for $20; I just don't get why every city does not have diners like NY diners.
I feel like New York Diners aren't what they used to be, many have gone out of business. That said, Jersey has always had plenty of very good diners. Not sure if it's still there, but The tick tock diner on route 3 with the magenta flashing sign that said "Eat Heavy" was a favorite.
@MCR - $700 in 2005, yowza. Supposedly that inflation adjusts to $1125 now but I think $700 in 2005 "felt like" a lot more than $1125 does now in NYC.
North BK still has diners if you like $20-25 burgers and $10-$15 beers...
Speaking of dining in the city - any comment on the epidemic of Resy/Opentable reservations insisting on deposits and/or high cancellation fees? Gotten bitten by this recently a bit with cold weather cold&flu season causing changes of plans.
I would be happy with cancellation fees IF and ONLY IF when I arrive exactly on time for my dinner reservation, and I have to wait more than 5 mins for my table for whatever sorry excuse, I should get a partial refund/credit. If you make a reservation and they are going to strictly hold you to it by charging a non refundable deposit, my table better be ready exactly on time
@911 - exactly
Don't shunt me off to the bar to sell me a drink and then when you finally seat me remind me I only have 90 minutes.
We are inching closer to the logical conclusion I half jokingly suggested - NYC restaurants just charging a table fee separate from the food. If occupying your table is $100/hour opportunity cost, then lease it to me and be done with all passive aggressive nudges.
$700 in 2025 would make me hypeventilate. Imagine what it felt like to 2005 MCR before I had surrendered to the absurdity of Mr. MCR's threshholds.
@Keith - Yes, our neighborhood has lost 1/2 of the diners that were there when we moved in 14 years ago. A tragedy.
Fascinating discussion. I’ll chime in as someone who only spent 10 years in NYC and has now escaped to suburbs to be near grandkids/family. Besides saving on city income tax, $1000 parking and paying a doorman to turn a doorknob for me, there is the schlep factor. In the City, if you’re a person who actually cooks regularly, the act of getting groceries is incredibly demanding unless you pay what I view as obscene prices for delivery - and then you don’t get half of what you need. Hauling a cart down an avenue after navigating ridiculous aisles can’t compete with the luxury of a parking lot and car trunk and free driveway. With wide choices of stores and prices! I park at a huge wonderful gym where my husband and I pay $110 a month. It’s not that I love driving - and I do love walking - but it is so EASY to do daily things again out of the City. I’m in good shape but found the City schlepping to be increasingly hard, stressful and downright dangerous. It’s a lot to put up with every day for an easier once a month show or museum visit.
@yentle You were definitely ready for the move! Glad you're enjoying your new suburban life!
Now that I live in Nowhere with a beltway that never has any traffic, EVER (at least in my definition of traffic), I get why people like their cars. Driving here is actually fun. I spent my entire adult life in cities where driving was not only not fun, but definitively stress-inducing between stand-still traffic and understandably aggressive drivers (and pedestrians! and cyclists! and now scooters!!).
Nothing here is more than fifteen minutes away, and I don't blink at going out of my way to pick up my mother in law en route to wherever I am going if she has errands to run.
On the other hand, I always felt energized just by being in any part of NYC, whereas here in Nowhere, the bulk of my surroundings (save our awesome, but SMALL, neighborhood) not only do not energize me, but they make me feel like I am on a sad conveyor belt of some sort. What alarms me even more is that I no longer bat an eye at the yard signs that say "God, guns and Trump will save our country." I am thinking that as easy as life is here, I just can't see it for the long haul. Time will tell.
One of the things that surprised me the most about Manhattan was the high cost of food. Unlike downtown LA or San Francisco where I could always find a big chain grocery store within walking distance (like Safeway in SF or Ralph’s in LA), in NYC, I find the least expensive option is a Whole Foods but the nearest one to us is one mile away and Whole Foods is not cheap. You are lucky if you live near a Trader Joe’s but there are only a handful in NYC. When I will drive to NJ, I would always, always do two things, fill up on gas and stop at an ALDIs to load up on groceries. When I compare the haul of food I could buy at ALDIs or ShopRite for say $50 to what that $50 buys me in Manhattan, it’s pretty shocking. But even before the congestion tax, it’s not financially feasible to drive to Hoboken JUST for gas and groceries. I also looked into delivery, again, with the delivery fees, it’s a wash with shopping at Whole Foods and I’m the type of guy that likes to buy his own food, not have someone pick it for me. Based on the shear number of delivery people on their bikes and escooters, it seems most NYC people don’t care. But it definitely adds up…and if other major cities can have large chain grocery stores in their downtown cores, it’s frustrating nyc can do the same
911, can you get to Big Apple Meat Market behind the Port Authority?
Not cheap for everything but generally the closest you'll have to a Safeway experience in NYC.