We don’t have to worry about natural disasters…

Florida south eastern / Western coast is certainly not cheap any more factoring in insurance costs, large condo assessments, and higher property prices for single family. I am wondering where the New Yorkers would go for warm retirement instead of Florida. Thoughts?

"...we don’t have to worry about earthquakes, hurricanes...." For some value of "property" and "we" that glosses over the damage inflicted by hurricane Sandy. But I'll grant that the frequency of some events is lower. But, we have situations in NYC that others rarely have: Broken water & steam pipes (Gramercy steam pipe, 1989, 2 dead; many temporarily homeless; Flatiron 2013: several residental building cellars flooded), facade parts coming off and whacking pedestrians, and flooding from adjacent buildings / units. Pick your risk, and plan accordingly.

I wouldn't do it now, though I used to live there, but Texas is a warm retirement spot, as is lots of So Cal, and the rest of the southwestern states - NV, UT, AZ, (much of which has potential water supply / quality issues). Were I banished from NY State and sent below the Mason Dixon line, I might pick Utah, NM, or OK. But I like winter and am planning on staying in NY.

Thanks Aaron. What do you think about NC/SC in general as retiree destination? In my opinion NV and AZ are problematic due to extreme heat and water issues.

>>> I am wondering where the New Yorkers would go for warm retirement instead of Florida. Thoughts?

I propose North Carolina. What do you think?

>>>But I like winter and am planning on staying in NY.

I think NY is a great retirement spot. And the growing number of retirees clearly agree.

North Carolina make sense but I don't know the statistics of people moving there from NY.

On NY being a great retirement spot, the biggest issue for retirees is cost of living, high real estate and income taxes. Weather plays a part clearly in retirees moving out but from what I read and hear cost of living tends to be a bigger factor in NYC and its suburbs.

https://smartasset.com/data-studies/where-retirees-move-2024

Top 10 Cities That Lost the Most Retirees
Cities are ranked by the net emigration of retirees out of a state.

New York, New York
Retirees moved in: 6,194
Retirees moved out: 28,696
Net movement: -22,502
Population aged 60+: 1,890,434
Percent of population aged 60+: 22.7%

We are looking at some very different data.

https://www.osc.ny.gov/files/press/pdf/report-22-2025.pdf

"In New York City, from 2000 to 2023, the 65 and older population grew by 53 percent, 17 times faster than the total population. Since the pandemic, as the total population declined, the 65 and older population was the only age group that grew."

I don’t understand how you can consider NYC as a great spot for retirees unless they’re loaded. Walkability, great museums, restaurants, culture, etc, etc, Central Park, great hospitals and doctors are all big pluses. But the cost of living is crazy high. I think of my elderly retired parents, even though they retired with plenty of savings, the cost of buying or renting in NYC would mean they would very, very little money left over for enjoying all those museums and restaurants and they probably could not afford to travel much at all. Currently they live in a much more moderately price city (think Albany) and the travel to Europe and each Asia at least once a year for several months. No way they can do that in NYC. As far where retirees are going, I agree Florida has lost some of its luster. In addition to North Carolina and South Carolina, I’ve heard good thinks about Alabama. There are probably quite a few states in the Southeast one could consider. If you’re close to a major city like Atlanta, you can at least get some of what you miss in NYC

A lot of snowbirds here in South Florida, spend the summers in the North Carolina mountains, the winters in South Florida. Florida still can be quite cheap depending on your living standards.

Here's a two bedroom two bathroom in the Jupiter ocean and racquet club, 5 minutes stroll to the ocean. They've already completed their inspections and concrete and roof work has been completed and paid for as well. Yes, this is fairly basic, put an excellent location. You can find a one bedroom in this development for under $300,000. And they allow you to rent it out 12 times a year, which is unusual most of these water front condominiums only permit one or two times a year with a minimum of 3 months.
https://my.flexmls.com/MarinaBrier/search/contacts/20201103200756672445000000/newsfeeds/listings/20250128230459024155000000

If you like to cook retirement in NYC looks OK. Yeah, taxes...but then services culture

>> I don’t understand how you can consider NYC as a great spot for retirees unless they’re loaded.

Is NYC a great spot for non-retirees who are not loaded? Whatever income level, whatever wealth level, there are plenty of people who choose to live in NYC for reasons you have a hard time phathoming. You may look around and think “I wouldn’t live here if I didn’t have the income/wealth I do”, which is fine. But that speaks to your preferences, not others’. Lots of people enjoy living here at expense levels well lower than yours. And plenty at expense levels that make you look like a peasant.

Nada, Once you remove the rent regulated people and people in cheaper areas of New York city, retirees do need more money than other places in NYC. Of course, one could live in 1 bedroom modest coop in decent Queens area rather than living in a say a modest 1500-2000 sq ft home in cheaper areas. But statistics of retiress moving out of NYC are statistics.

Agree that AZ/NV are problematic. I have relatives and friends in NC - I haven't visited to see for myself, but they're all very happy there. (though some were affected by last year's storms - there is no perfect location).

I know a number of NYC retireees who are not loaded*, and they're doing just fine. The big differentiator is that they are apartment or home owners who have been in place for 30-40+ years i.e., no mortgage, or live in stabilized rentals, which helps reduce the level of financial uncertainty. Some were also two-income households (neither made a lot of money.) They're not eating at the trendy restaurants every week, but that's principally due to a 'been there done that when I was younger' attitude. They're also not going to Europe annually, because they're just not that interested any more -- they've travelled, they've seen and done many of the things they wanted to do. In their 80s and 90s they're slowing down, and have scaled back. (And have you seen those tour buses of the advanced elderly? Do you really want to travel like that?)

I do have one limited income friend who attends NYC theatre and ballet several times a week, in good, not super prime seats, because that's what they love, and have prioritized their expenses -- they bring their own sandwich from home for a pre-show meal. They're happy to be attending, and happy that other people are attending in more expensive seats (if they even think about that).

Also, as retirees, they have less income, thus their taxes are lower. I think we fall into a trap of thinking about 'our' taxes, as fairly high earners in the prime of our ability to generate income, and forgetting that our tax situation will change later in life.

(* what's the definition of 'loaded'? Maybe less than 1.5m in income-producing assets, and less than $1500/mo in SS benefits?)

Aaron - Curious what the typical apt size and maintenance is for such apartment owners?
---------
The big differentiator is that they are apartment or home owners who have been in place for 30-40+ years i.e., no mortgage, or live in stabilized rentals, which helps reduce the level of financial uncertainty.

I was more considering retirees who moved to NYC to enjoy their golden years from somewhere else rather retirees who have lived here all their life and own a paid off home or live in a rent stabilized unit and have decided to stay put. There is obviously a big difference. Sure there are plenty of people who choose to live in NYC on very modest means. I’m betting more pass on the opportunity when they see how far their dollar goes in the city. And the weather is more desirable in many other places for retirees. If I thought I could game the system to get my elderly parents into a nice rent controlled unit, I’d drive them here myself. Yes, I’m sure many find NYC a very desirable retirement destination. Are we really arguing that the majority of “normal” people would rate NYC a top retirement destination?

Keith, That Jupiter condo you posted. $1000 per month HOA plus normal assessments and $600 per month Taxes for 1200 sq ft. So almost non-doorman building Manhattan expenses but you do get the common facilities which for a retiree are useful. Where would this condo have traded in 2010/11? $200k?

>Are we really arguing that the majority of “normal” people would rate NYC a top retirement destination?

Most "normal" Americans probably would not. Retiree population here is largely immigrant. This is the only "true city" in the US by some standards.

Apartment living is generally old age friendly. Less yardwork, elevators, etc all good things in old age
Social protections are really good. 50% of the city is on Medicaid, lots of free services available
Good access healthcare
Public transport means no driving
Stuff to do including, free paining lessons at the library, free days at museums, concerts in the parks etc
The weather... who cares, you are not the one cleaning the snow from the sidewalks.

If you like nature, there are better spots. If you like big city things, NYC is great

@300: The situations I know of:
1BR small-ish 6th fl walkup, controlled rental, ~$400/mo
1BR small 3rd fl walkup, controlled rental, ~$600/mo
1BR co-op, minimal services, but w/ 24h doorman, maybe just over 500 square feet, ~$1200/mo
2BR co-op, minimal services, but w/ 24h doorman, around 1200 square feet, ~$1700/mo
The first two are obvious exceptions to modern reality, but it is what let those individuals stay in NYC through their not well compensated careers, and substantially beyond.

@911: I think moving here from somewhere else for retirement is a luxury situation – unless you’re significantly downsizing, it’s unlikely the sale of a home elsewhere is going to afford you a cash-only purchase in NYC. Of course, if your parents are old enough, they could move here, live it up like drunken sailors for a while, and leave their heirs nothing. After all, there's no law that requires capital to be preserved for the next generation. Would you be happy with that?

Thanks Aaron. So it is basically a space comprise for 1 bed room or lucky to have rent regulated. Even though at 2 bedroom full paid coop, your monthlies (plus assessments) start to add up essentially making it the entry point of luxury retirement (call it $100k+ annual retirement income).

There are plenty of places in New York City where a middle-class retiree could live very comfortably, while still enjoying all the benefits that City living affords. You just have to get out of your little bubble that New York City is only prime Manhattan or brownstone Brooklyn. Of course if you have champagne taste with a beer budget, then you're out of luck. I've lived all over New York City, and I've enjoyed all the various and diverse neighborhoods from fort Greene to Inwood. And the rest of the city was only a short subway ride away.

“Of course, if your parents are old enough, they could move here, live it up like drunken sailors for a while, and leave their heirs nothing. After all, there's no law that requires capital to be preserved for the next generation. Would you be happy with that?”

Absolutely. My parents worked hard and don’t owe me anything. And I have worked hard, was able to retire at 40, and don’t expect or need any inheritance from my parents or anybody else. Any more questions?

@911 Do you have kids?

“@911 Do you have kids?“

No and I realize my perspective on many issues is probably quite different for that reason. I have never really had to think about quality of schools when choosing where I want to live. Certainly I would have never been able to retire at 40 had I had kids and I’m also pretty sure I would not be living in Manhattan, even part time as I do now, if I had kids.

I do have a dog though and he is very high maintenance!

>> There are plenty of places in New York City where a middle-class retiree could live very comfortably, while still enjoying all the benefits that City living affords. You just have to get out of your little bubble that New York City is only prime Manhattan or brownstone Brooklyn.

Amen.

The notion of a “middle-class retiree” is also vague. A middle-class earner who worked for 40 years, saved meaningfully, and invested diligently could get be sitting on a few million at retirement. Start snipping at those 3 fundamental legs of compounding — half the years, half the savings rate, half the investment rate — and it could be lower by a factor of 100x. Yet the two “middle-class retirees” could have both been progressing through their middle-class careers together, each viewing themselves as “middle-class people”.

@Krolik +1 - good points.

@Aaron2 I'm middle class and planning on this - well, semi-retirement since I will want to keep doing something. Hoping to get to performing arts regularly as that's a big draw. I don't mind sitting up in the gods and enjoy my own cooking. Does your friend know of People's Symphony? https://www.pscny.org/

A retired Board of Ed schoolteacher friend does all kinds of things. She just took a Hawaiian dance workshop. There's something for everyone at pretty much any price point.

Re natural disasters. My LA based cousin bought a place just north of Washington Sq a couple years ago. She would only consider a post-50's structure because she's convinced NYC is due for an earthquake. 'Read up on it' she advised. I haven't. I'll be crushed with the rest of you.

>> I haven't. I'll be crushed with the rest of you.

LOL.

Very true nada. My grandfather was a ' millionaire next door type'. However, you never would have known it. He continued to live frugally all the way to the ripe old age of 99! Never had to worry about money. However, I also know plenty of middle class friends, put together a decent retirement but were constrained by any serious savings because of having to raise two or three kids and get them through college.

Here's some information on middle class status from Gemini:

https://g.co/gemini/share/f815120bce06

@Keith: Thanks for the info. The Pew calculator mentioned is here:

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/09/16/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/

It defines a $100k pre-tax houseold income in the NYC area for a single person as 'middle tier'. Outside of NYC that same amount tends to be 'upper tier'.

Very interesting tool - thanks for sharing. It would be interesting to dig down at the neighborhood level because metro area is a very rough measure. Pretty sure I'd be lower in my neighborhood. Good for them is my take - what's it to me? It's not who you are.

Are we just going to forget about major flooding in a bunch of NYC in the not so distant past?

Thanks Keith for mentioning college. And Krolik's in the nanny stages. Who is intermediate-land and wants to talk about how the high cost of camp drains their savings potential? (I once had a client with three kids, but HHI of > $500K, who used it as an excuse for why she couldn't buy.)

“Are we just going to forget about major flooding in a bunch of NYC in the not so distant past?”

I’m not saying NYC isn’t immune to natural disasters, I remember Sandy. But at least in my experience, it hasn’t been factored into my insurance costs. When I owned condos in Miami and Miami Beach, my insurance was 3-4 times what I paid for my NYC condo which was 2–3 times more expensive to purchase. In both San Francisco and Los Angeles, in areas not directly affected by wildfires, my insurance has gone up by more than 40% over the past year. Many of my friends have had their insurance dropped even though they have never filed claims. There are other reasons with insurance is a shi%show in California, not just natural disasters, but at least in my personal experience, the only thing that has been cheaper in NYC than either Florida or California is the cost of my home insurance and in fact it is significantly cheaper despite my condo being worth far more than any property I’ve owned. Maybe nyc will catch up…

Unfortunately I find the air in NYC very tough to take.
No one seems to mention this.
I may have to relocate to the Hamptons. I guess over the years, the rarified air out there has spoiled me.

I don't know parents in the NYC area do it. College is one thing but when you've got private K-12 on top of that yikes. You can see why property values in the nicer burbs are what they are. They don't need to worry about educational expenses until college. @front_porch I hadn't even considered camp. I guess if all your kids' friends are going they have to, too. You hear about how NYC compensation is correspondingly higher...but is it that much?

Reading snippets of Roger Pielke Jr on climate change. He takes a much more modest view of what science can tell us about about climate change based on extreme weather events. The popular media often conflates extreme weather events with $ costs.

>> I don't know parents in the NYC area do it. College is one thing but when you've got private K-12 on top of that yikes.

True. If only we could come up with a system for the parents of those 1M+ school aged children in NYC to provide an education for their children, to prevent them from turning into uninformed adults.

There are public schools but the quality is patchy and it gets worse the higher up you go. Public high schools are atrocious.

>>>There are public schools but the quality is patchy and it gets worse the higher up you go. Public high schools are atrocious

Curious, what is this based on? I can see that a few of public high schools in NYC are ranked extremely well on this site: https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-public-high-schools/

Many people also praise public elementary schools... to say nothing of free public 3K which is an awesome feature

>> Curious, what is this based on?

I went to a “good” public high school in suburbia. It seems to have barely squeezed into the A+ category with a rank in the range of 500. I think about 3% of high schools receive the A+ rank. Maybe it’s higher by enrollment count.

Meanwhile, I counted the number of seats at NYC public high schools with an A+ ranking. ~23K. Out of a total enrollment of ~300K in NYC public high schools. That’s 7.5%.

Seems kinda… good to fine? I suppose NYC nominally distributes more of its A+ seats based on talent rather than the size of the parents’ checkbook in terms of where they can afford to reside. But based on my cursory take, the kids in the A+ NYC high schools tend to have parents with bigger checkbooks.

Also, the top NYC public magnet schools are off the charts in terms of their degree of A+ -ness. My high school, full of students with insecure over-achiever parents who self-selected to have their kids attend a “good” A+ school, “only” managed to get ~3% of its students into an Ivy-ish school. Stuyvesant seems to run at ~15%.

>> the only thing that has been cheaper in NYC than either Florida or California is the cost of my home insurance and in fact it is significantly cheaper despite my condo being worth far more than any property I’ve owned. Maybe nyc will catch up

Unlikely. The insurance industry has pretty good ideas about the risks and prices accordingly. If anything, high-risk places in CA and FL tend to get underpriced. States step in and effectively create an insurance subsidy from low-risk regions for the benefit of high-risk regions.

To put things in perspective, Sandy was the 3rd most costly storm in history. Manhattan had insured losses of about $4B. I estimate property insurance companies collect around $1B/yr from 600M sq ft of total space. So ~4 years’ worth of premiums. Maybe ~8 once you account for overhead unrelated to the risk cost (e.g., sales, administration, etc).

When I had a kid in (public) elementary school, a fellow PTA parent said to me "enjoy these years; middle school is where it all falls apart."

But then, by the time we had to rank middle schools, we had five, literally five, strong candidates that we would have been happy at. This is a positive benefit of the rise of the city economically, I guess?

Anyway, on the West Side, Booker T (where we did not end up) is so big that you basically knew if you ranked it, you wouldn't have any trouble ending up there, and it's a very strong middle school. Honestly, it strikes me as better than the high school I went to in Nowhere.

Now that we are looking down the road to (public) high school, I get the same sense: there are actually a number of decent high schools that can work for non-SHS kids. ("SHS" = Specialized High School -- the elite schools that kids generally test into, like Stuy, Brooklyn Tech, Bronx Science, or audition into, like LaGuardia.)

But this will be the case for us because we're Manhattan residents, and Manhattan is wealthy. The NYC kids who are more at risk are the kids who live in less expensive areas, and face weaker middle and high school choices. Even if those kids are smart, barring extensive parental help, they're not going to get to SHS without the preparation of a strong middle school.

Staten Island Tech, Bronx Science, Brooklyn Tech are all in the boroughs, and there are lots of other good schools there.

My sibling went to not well-ranked elementary and middle schools in Brooklyn, still made it into Brooklyn Tech, with no out of pocket test prep expense (I think some very basic test prep was provided by his nothing-special middle school).

Not all of Manhattan is wealthy. And also the schools are not funded based on property taxes in your zipcode.

I know NYC gets a lot of flack for high spending per student for poor outcomes. But when I look at various stats:

- 7.5% high school seats A+ per niche versus perhaps half that nationally

- double the child poverty rate (25%) compared to national (12.5%)

Kinda seems somewhere between fine & good? I’m happy to hear positives from front_porch and Krolik. Certainly happier that my taxes get distributed across the city than having it stay within my zip code. But is it bad form to ask for a sign to be hung somewhere: “This classroom has been funded by the generous involuntary support of inonada”? There was no such sign in any of my classrooms growing up, which I suppose means I shouldn’t get one either. Oh well…

I think they should name a school after you, that's the least they could do.

Yeeesssss.... "The Inonada School for the Gifted"

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheFarSide/comments/1c4xudt/midvale_school_for_the_gifted/

Front Porch you nailed it: I think if parents are engaged the kids will end up flourishing. They'll end up in all right middle and high schools. To be honest, most of what I experienced and know about was from the Bronx where students and parents (and consequently teachers, counselors and administrators) were grappling with all kinds of social problems.

“the insurance industry has pretty good ideas about the risks and prices accordingly. If anything, high-risk places in CA and FL tend to get underpriced. States step in and effectively create an insurance subsidy from low-risk regions for the benefit of high-risk regions.”

Yes but California regulators until recently have not allowed insurance companies to raise rates enough to cover the risk from recent wildfires which are not going away. So that is why many have fled the state. I don’t think Florida has that issue so much, but when I lived in Florida, I was aware that insurance fraud was rampant. You couldn’t walk 5 minutes in downtown Miami without seeing a billboard or other ad from attorneys who specialize in suing insurance companies. I was paying over $3500 in insurance per year for a 750 square foot condo in Miami Beach. In Manhattan, I’ve never paid more than $700 per year

Wow that is wild!

>>>I’m happy to hear positives from front_porch and Krolik. Certainly happier that my taxes get distributed across the city than having it stay within my zip code.

My positives are purely theoretical / data-driven at this point, rather than based on personal experience, since my child is still barely walking... but I'll be sure to report back in a few years. :-)

>>>I think if parents are engaged the kids will end up flourishing.

The problem that private schools cause in NYC, they remove from the public school system a large number of kids with engaged parents. Public schools have fewer engaged parents than they would otherwise and higher proportion of poor / struggling / special ed kids.

>> My positives are purely theoretical / data-driven at this point, rather than based on personal experience

I was saying that based on your sibling:

>> My sibling went to not well-ranked elementary and middle schools in Brooklyn, still made it into Brooklyn Tech, with no out of pocket test prep expense (I think some very basic test prep was provided by his nothing-special middle school).

I guess that's true! It was also 15 years ago, but hopefully still the case.

>> A middle-class earner who worked for 40 years, saved meaningfully, and invested diligently could get be sitting on a few million at retirement.

Here’s an example:

https://www.reddit.com/user/Apart_Olive_3539/

The guy’s has worked 40 years in construction, as a pipefitter, with current salary running about $130K/yr (no OT). He will be retiring soon at age ~60. His wife, who is 3 years younger, will be retiring in a few years at ~62.

His retirement funds are a $2.6K/mo Social Security (staring at 62), $4K/mo pension, and $1M in a retirement account. Her retirement funds are a $500K IRA and (let’s assume) $2.4K/mo Social Security. He says they have no mortgage, which I’ll assume means they own a US median ~$500K home outright.

As the mix stands, they have $9K/mo of retirement income (with COLA increases) plus $2M of retirement assets. An annuity could make the bundle be ~$18K/mo of retirement income (with COLA increases) and $0M of assets. After-tax, it’d be ~$15K/mo of income.

On the point of middle-class retirees being able to afford retirement in NYC, I could get by spending $15K/mo living in NYC! You don’t get any more middle-class than a pipefitter. This couple made it work via 40 years of working, saving, and investing. They also put a kid through college, to boot!

@Krolik about engaged parents that is absolutely the case. The parents best able to advocate for their children flock. That leaves a huge cohort of overpriced, underperforming public schools for kids who are penalized no matter how talented they may be. The real problem, ultimately, is calcification: how do you get rid of lousy teachers? Currently, thanks to teachers unions that take a zero-sum approach to job security, it's almost impossible and, then, at great expense.