Grocery store socialism

I am not optimistic. Trader Joe’s (and I presume Lidl and Aldi) have limited SKUs that are all private label. They run at something like 3-5% net margin, I imagine. They’re the best at what they do—cheap groceries. Repurposing a quote from Buffett, I’d sooner wrestle grizzlies than compete with the Albrechts and their progeny.

It’s just dopey to think an city-run grocery chain, working with “private operators”, is going to get anywhere close to them on price. Unless those “private operators” are Trader Joe’s and whatnot, which won’t fly because it means it’d just be a city-run store in name only since every SKU is a Trader Joe’s label. The other “private operators” are unable to compete on price. I doubt the benefit of forgoing 3-5% of net margin and free rent will offset the cost of labor with generous city union level pay & benefits. Cue in the NY Post articles comparing prices against Trader Joe’s.

On the other hand, I’m confident free buses will be cheaper than the competition.

I do not see this as even presenting any opportunity to forego the net margin (and an Economist article back when this was first proposed put the typical grocery store number under 2%), as the operator presumably is going to want to earn a similar margin to operate its own store or someone else's store, and as Inonada points out it is likely to have a higher than typical labor cost carry under some city contract. The only savings is the taxpayer-funded build-out costs amortized over its useful life (assuming some tenant could not get landlord concessions in a private deal to defray some of those costs in retail starved areas), and what recent articles have suggested would be $250k in foregone annual rent. No math or enthusiastic speeches can translate that into materially lower prices.

Isn’t the whole purpose to win election? And spend tax payer money on uneconomic stuff?

@300_mercer - you nailed it. It's grandstanding to his youthful, economically illiterate audience.

MTH, May be I have become too cynical as I age. I think the politicians know what is economic and uneconomic. And on the voter side, when a small percentage of voters pay a large $ percentage of total taxes, voters who don’t pay much taxes think more in terms of redistribution and free money to them rather than what is economic even though many of them know what is economic.

We have it at the federal level two on both sides of the aisle. All the politicians know how to reduce the deficit as they can read the Congressional Budget office report on that.

Or in other words, there is a big difference between what is economic as a whole and what is economic for sub sets of voters. Every subset of voters is voting their economic interest and people who contribute the most to the pot don’t have enough votes. That is why every one rails against the rich as it is in their economic / political interest.

I don't know where these are actually going to be placed, but the concept is to fight food deserts . So they wouldn't be competing against Albrechts. They would not be competing with other supermarkets. They would be competing against high priced bodegas

Enjoy this video, my StreetEasy friends. I recommend breaks every 5 minutes to breathe deeply as you are watching it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/22/opinion/shoplifting-political-protest-microlooting-whole-foods.html?unlocked_article_code=1.c1A.Q9X3.BB4TxkD3E7de&smid=nytcore-ios-share

“I don't know where these are actually going to be placed, but the concept is to fight food deserts . So they wouldn't be competing against Albrechts. They would not be competing with other supermarkets. They would be competing against high priced bodegas”

Call me a little cynical. Harlem is hardly a food desert. In fact, I did a little research, the proposed site of this socialist grocery store is exactly 0.8 miles from an Aldi and 0.9 miles from a LIDL, two of the lowest priced grocery store in the entire United States. The concept is not to fight food deserts. It is to make unrealistic yet highly popular promises to naive New Yorkers (who lack any understanding of basic economics) about dramatically lowering their cost of living and at the same time screwing the “rich”. And these promises, no matter how far-fetched and unrealistic, are made to get elected. You know what? It worked.

30yrs>> I don't know where these are actually going to be placed, but the concept is to fight food deserts . So they wouldn't be competing against Albrechts. They would not be competing with other supermarkets. They would be competing against high priced bodegas.

The East Harlem one will be at 115th and Park, in a place called La Marqueta. The closest full grocery store is 0.1 miles away: City Fresh Market, around the corner, 24/7, rated 4.2 in Google reviews. Moreover, there are Trader Joe's, Aldi, and LIDL all just under a mile in directions west, north, and east. So to me, not exactly a food desert for much of anyone in any direction. Take a look and tell me what you think.

For comparison, the closest grocery store to me is 0.4 miles and rated about the same. I have a Trader Joe's 0.9 miles away. The closest Aldi is 7 miles (the same one in East Harlem!), but thankfully there's a LIDL a mere 2.2 miles away. So I'm in more of a food desert than that, it seems.

@inonada Wow. Although I have to say I feel very differently about intellectual property rights (patent law) vs physical goods. Patents drive prices up for consumers and stifle innovation. So maybe they should be reformed. (This is half baked but maybe for things that are critical to human flourishing - medicine, a cure for cancer, etc - the government creates a bounty - a one time 'thank you from civilization' fund.) When it comes to food, *because* it's food, stealing it is somehow worse. Theft drives prices up for everyone. All the people in that conversation are credentialed knowledge workers. Again, they have been steeped in post-modernist thought. ''One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that; no ordinary man could be such a fool'' - Orwell

From Wikipedia: Early life and education
Hasan Doğan Piker was born on July 25, 1991, in New Brunswick, New Jersey, to Turkish parents. He grew up in Istanbul and was raised as a Muslim.[6][7] His father's family emigrated from Thessaloniki and Crete, Greece, to Turkey.[8] His father, Mehmet Behçet Piker, is a political scientist and economist who served on the board of directors (and as vice president) of Sabancı Holding, and who is a founding member of the conservative Future Party in Turkey.[9][10] His mother, Ülker Sedef Piker (née Uygur),[11][12] is an art and architectural historian teaching at the New Jersey Institute of Technology.[13][14] His uncle, Cenk Uygur, is a political commentator and co-founder of The Young Turks, a left-leaning news network.[15]

Piker returned to the United States and attended the University of Miami, then transferred to Rutgers University, where he joined the Theta Delta Chi fraternity. In 2013, he graduated cum laude from Rutgers with a double major in political science and communication studies.[16][7][17] Piker then moved to Los Angeles, California.[18] In 2021, he bought a $2.7 million, 3,800-square-foot (350 m²) house in West Hollywood.[19] Most of Piker's streams have been filmed in his house.[18]

MTH>> Theft drives prices up for everyone. All the people in that conversation are credentialed knowledge workers.

No it doesn’t. As they explained, it’s all built into the shrinkage factor. They expect—no they *want* you to steal.

300>> even though many of them know what is economic

I’m not sure these set of folks know Whole Foods net profit margin in their last year of full operations as a standalone company was 3%. They just seem to know: (a) big, bad corporation; (b) unfair wages; (c) prices too high.

Plus less than fabulous customer service considering the prices they charge.

Jerry Seinfeld: So we're gonna make the Post Office pay for my new stereo now?
Kramer: It's a write-off for them.
Jerry: How is it a write-off?
Kramer: They just write it off.
Jerry: Write it off what?
Kramer: Jerry, all these big companies, they write off everything.
Jerry: You don't even know what a write-off is.
Kramer: Do you?
Jerry: No, I don't.
Kramer: But they do, and they're the ones writing it off.

Nada, Isn’t communism on a very fundamental basis fight between labor and capital about $s? Or redistribution of wealth. Pie is fixed. The people in NYT interview are trying to further their own economic interests by creating a following on social media.

Just like Bernie thinks it is fine to get (somewhat) rich by writing a book. But if he employed people to write a book, any profit really belongs to the people writing it in his world.

People stealing from Duane Reade are getting the goods for free - their economic interest.

When people rail again concentration of wealth, they believe that at least some resources are fixed and there wouldn’t be enough left for them. And they would be right about prime housing location.

It is not free market economics as we call economics in financial world but economics nonetheless.

And I am so cynical that the interview didn’t bother me one bit. I have met a few such people in Park Slope who live in a few million $ houses.

And why many people feel it is fine to steal intellectual property - mostly likely they don’t see any incremental labor cost. It is just profit going to a rich corporation.

I found it mostly incoherent.

“Stealing a $1 lemon is just, because the big bad corporation is going to give 3 cents to evil shareholders, of which 2.7 cents will go to pensions and 401ks and individuals and whatnot, but then 0.3 cents is going to big bad Bezos… who’s just gonna end up giving it all to liberal causes like his ex-wife.”

I remember a good (left-leaning) friend in college used to tell people who spoke such nonsense, “I’m sure that sounds real compelling to you right now, but wait until you try play that BS in the real world”. Well, the joke’s on him because HasanAbi is richer than his poor double-doctor household!

Pointing out that they are placing one in a non-food desert has nothing to do with the fact they work in food deserts

The best part about self checkout at Whole Foods is that every second item is free.

>> Pointing out that they are placing one in a non-food desert has nothing to do with the fact they work in food deserts

Putting them in a food desert might be a great idea. But putting one of five in a such an obvious non-desert, spending $30M of a $70M budget to boot, speaks of a greater interest in political theater than good policy. The people who put Mamdani in office do enjoy political theater, no doubt. I was just hoping they’d receive some good policy along the way.

>> The best part about self checkout at Whole Foods is that every second item is free.

Yeah, that’s why I prefer Trader Joe’s. Not only do the tighter SKUs keep everything more fresh, but I’d rather pay highly efficient workers (they’re a marvel to watch) than subsidize ethically challenged customers.

I would actually support getting rid of self-checkout all together. Trader Joe’s doesn’t have it and despite very long lines (have you been to the store in UWS on Broadway??), things move efficiently. Theft is so much easier in the self-checkout as there is always plausible denial (oh, I simply forgot to scan that, oh, I thought I scanned that, etc…). I notice in some grocery stores they have tightened the motion sensors and cameras so there will a warning/alert if you pass an item from your cart to your bag without scanning but in my experience, there are almost TOO sensitive, going off at the slightest “unusual “ movement, requiring an employee to come and reset the alarm, which takes time. I liked the concept of self-checkout but unfortunately the temptation to shoplift ruins it for the honest shoppers

Yeah, I find the whole thing inefficient. Professionals are much faster than customers at scanning, and they know the numbers on produce (the good ones, anyways). And at a place like TJ, they bring additional efficiency by charging either by the piece or box than by weight.

The worst are the self-checkouts who try to track you by the weight of items placed into the checkout area / scale. Sometimes you want to place the scanned item elsewhere, sometimes you need to remove a full bag, sometimes the item weight is wrong in their computer. In all cases, you get delayed until the store rep scans you while you both roll your eyes. And to what end? If someone is trying to steal, the effective route is to bypass scanning and placement on the checkout scale.

I try to avoid stores where the base premise is that their workers’ time is more valuable than mine.

I have a hard time spending more than $40 at TJ's. And can never escape WFs without parting with at least $50.

On self checkout, Whole Foods Union Square just has so few cashiers that self check out is faster. In my mind, self checkout is reducing the employment opportunities for people who need it the most. Or owner weighing the cost of stealing vs cost of honest labor. I still shop at Wholefood as it is just 200 meters closer to me and I find quality of certain things better. And there are more choices at Whole Foods.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/marks-spencer-ms-supermarket-self-checkouts-shoplifting-b2964364.html

I get deliveries of basics from Wholefoods on Tuesdays and shop in-person at TJ or LIDL on Saturdays

I like to bake and for baking ingredients (flour, sugar, milk, eggs, etc…), Target has very good prices, often less than TJ. Their store brand of Greek Yogurt and peanut butter is also on par with Aldi and Lidl prices. Not many people think of Target for groceries, and they are very limited in terms of meat, seafood, produce but for other basics they are not bad at all. I dislike that every Target I’ve shopped in, the food section is always way at the back of the store, forcing you to walk past all the other stuff they want to try to sell you, I’m guessing their margins on food are very low and they are hoping you will buy other stuff. Our Target is 5 mins from our home and it’s been a godsend, I’m probably in that store 5 days a week.

I'm doing Target a lot for those quick pickups. Still waiting for my Lidl to open on 8th Ave.

Yah I’m excited about that LIDL on 8th Avenue, I ran by it yesterday but it’s still not open. I really like the fruit and vegetable stand on 8th Ave and 24th st (or 25th can’t remember), the owner is super nice except one time there was another guy and strawberries were on sale for $1 a pound. I carefully started examining boxes to look for overripe and moldy berries, which usually nobody cares since I was the only one there, it wasn’t busy at all. The guy started giving me the evil eye and when I finally picked my “pristine” box of strawberries, he took it from me and said he wouldn’t sell to me! I felt like I was on an episode of Seinfeld. I was banned from the fruit stand…Luckily he was a substitute for the real owner who I see all the time and is very nice!

It's surprising there aren't more LIDL markets - I guess the problem is finding good rents in NYC.

I wish Gristedes did leave the city after Mamdani and we would get a LIDL or a WF instead.

Is it just high rent that keeps disruptors like Aldi and more TJ's out? Or are there other factors?

Everything is more expensive, delivery, labor, insurance, utilities. I would guess rent is one of the biggest factors. You can mitigate this somewhat by having a smaller stores but then a problem you will run into is items frequently selling out because less inventory and frustrating customers. There is a “small” Target in Hells Kitchen I frequent, they are constantly selling out of items. Especially Greek Yogurt, milk, unsalted butter, flour….you have to shop early or just get lucky. They have been out of their Good and Gather brand flour for days with no idea when it’s going to be restocked.

But wouldn't everything be more expensive for everyone? Gristede's, Morton Williams - those costs wouldn't change much (I imagine). Whereas maybe legacy renters benefit from legacy rent? I'm just throwing darts.

If I were opening a TJ's or an Aldi I would want to be located as close to a Gristede's or Morton Williams as possible.

It's true epic lines at TJ's but am amazed at how quickly they move. And then you get to the cash register and the cashiers are agreeable. Haven't run into low stock too much - what they actually offer changes quickly, though. But that keeps it fresh. 'Where the hell is the...oooooh, look at this!'

I would guess TJ, Aldi, and the like have more leverage when purchasing bulk food vs. Gristedes and Morton Williams. The latter are basically nyc chains and the former are national chains. This is why (I think), Whole Foods in NYC has lower prices than Gristedes, Morton Williams and smaller local chains. I assume they can purchase food from wholesalers at better prices because they are a huge national chain. In fact, NYC is the only city I can think of where Whole Foods is reasonably priced compared to the competition.

Gristedes isn't a supermarket. It's a development site.

Unsubstantiated Reddit theories on how Gristedes is able to operate run the gamut from RE play, as 30yrs intimates, to money laundering:

https://www.reddit.com/r/FoodNYC/comments/1ctnlz1/gristedes_pricing_is_out_of_control/

That’s pretty funny. I’m glad I’m not the only one that thinks only in NYC is Whole Foods not Whole paycheck. Fairway is actually pretty reasonable too. I downloaded their app, become a member and got a free bag of crackers! Something like that makes my day and forget (briefly) that my condo is down $30-40k conservatively over the past 3 years.

I agree. WF, if you look for sales etc, is not really more expensive than other stores. Chinatown Salmon is $11.00 now and Whole Foods for far better kept Salmon is just 15.99. Their 365 brand is fairly priced. I have gotten slightly cheaper Salmon from TJ but there was a lot of water in there. Butcher is certainly more expensive at Wholefood but you can really select what you want. No so at TJ.

At the end of the day, if 50 percent plus cost of groceries in Manhattan is in-store labor and space which remain the same regardless of the owner, I prefer to pay 10 percent extra if it is leading to 20 improvement in the product quality.

And then compared to real estate cost, grocery costs aren’t significant if you cook at home. In fact, it is steal compared to deliveries and eating out. But you have to like cooking which my household does.

@911 - I had no idea how big Aldi has become in the US - that's how long I've been out of the country. It looks like Aldi and TJ's are part of the same company. Imagine they'll avoid opening too close to one another.

@inonada: Hhhh - well, look at the company the owner keeps would it come as a surprise?

A friend likes Lincoln Market as a 'full grocery' option. Lazy bones that I am, I'll probably end up going to Brooklyn Fare - a 5 minute walk vs 15

15 min is kind of a hike to carry groceries home.

Curious what people here consider a reasonable maximum walking distance for a regular two-bag grocery run.

I go to Patel Bros in Queens - ~6 block/avenue walk from apartment to the F train, 20 minute subway ride to Jackson Hts stop, 1 minute walk at the store-end. Happy to carry 2 heavy bags home. It's not the horizontal distance, it's the hike up/down the subway stairs.

That's a schlep. Is it the prices? The quality of the groceries?

It's mostly the products and the quality: Patel is a major source for Indian groceries, particularly green goods, including stuff you just can't get anywhere else. (It's not my ethnicity, but I cook a lot of the cuisine). Today the fresh methi looked pretty good, as did the ginger (3 kinds!) and the okra, and I now want to look up what to do with parval, tindora, and guvar, which I'd never heard of, but looked to be worth investigating. I'm not going all the way there for a single bag of spices (Kalustyans for that, which is closer), but for a major restock, they're worth the ride.

Wow - what fun - sounds like you're committed!

The real question is, Aaron2, which of the fuska carts do you think is best?

Browsing the Patel Bros website, I’m inspired to try baking some Indian desserts! They look pretty delicious. They have an impressive list of recipes to try

Aaron, Those methi greens can give Asparagus a serious challenge and most cases handle beat especially when combined with cumin powder. There is also Little India Market on 28th and 3rd but much small produce vs Patel Brothers.

I like China town for my leafy greens with edible stems with bonus being dimsum.

Where do people find the best meat and seafood prices? I’m thinking mostly pork. Big Apple market on 9th and 42nd has decent meat prices. We visited an Asian grocery store in Queens (forget the name) and their meat prices were really great but that’s too far out by subway to save some money on meat and then have to bring it all back. Taking the car makes no sense with gas and tolls

Chinatown. You can do one stop shopping at HK supermarket. Fairly clean. Not everything is cheap but sea food and pork is. Variety is amazing!!

@300: Yes, Little India Market is my "Queens feels too far away today" option -- though it ultimately takes almost as long from the UES, between the walk to/from the subway, or the bus ride back.

@nada: no opinion on fuska carts, though maybe I should give them a try - I've had them as 'pani puri' at Chola and liked them. (Indian food names can be soooooo confusing as regions often have completely different names for the same thing.)

My toddler's idea of a good time is "going to market with mama", so recently we walk to LIDL every Saturday. But I am not carrying a bag, I am pushing a stroller. it is ~8 street blocks + 2 avenue blocks away.

When I was a kid, I absolutely loved going to the grocery store with my Dad on weekends. Probably helps explain my fascination with grocery stores to this day.

I second 300's HK Supermarket recommendation

@Krolik: That's a very nice mom thing to do (ditto your dad, @911)

>> though maybe I should give them a try

Yes, please try each and every one and report back to us on the best one.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/nyregion/jackson-heights-street-food-fuchka.html

We were in HK supermarket today and definitely meat prices are pretty good. Also was not as chaotic as I thought it might be on a Sunday afternoon. I think for alot of the produce, the ubiquitous fruit stands are at least as competitive. We did load up on a lot of spices for Asian cooking

Nice. Try their sea food section next time. Tiger shrimp is very price. And of course still swimming fish which they will prepare for $2-3 optional tip and put along with a bag of ice for you. Then they have myriad of frozen Chinese buns / goods which can be steamed.

Nice. Try their sea food section next time. Tiger shrimp is very well priced. And of course still swimming fish which they will prepare for $2-3 optional tip and put along with a bag of ice for you. Then they have myriad of frozen Chinese buns / goods which can be steamed.

Actually the meat and seafood section were surprisingly “sanitary” looking. I’m used to the myriad of butchers and fish mongers in San Francisco Chinatown which many really look unsanitary, some places just have random mystery pieces of meat in white buckets with no indication how long stuff has been sitting there. Yet these places are absolutely bustling with people. I tell myself as I buy food in these places, if there really was a health issue, given how crowded these places are, you would have to have heard about it in the news and they’d be shut down by the health authorities! Also in San Francisco Chinatown, the vendors make zero effort to have any English signs describing the meat and seafood. And if you ask, they shrug their shoulders and shake their head. They are more friendly in NYC Chinatown. And plenty of English signs

I went to Patel Bros a long time ago. Very clean store but not my kind of stock. It was interesting to visit.

Turbo, There are some fish mongers with open shop front. They are usually cheaper than HK supermarket but as you noticed HK super market is not Wholefoods standard but generally good clean standard. And they always have one or two English speaking staff if you need help. Then I really like the convenience of one stop shopping. I find that their beef selection is very limited to non existent - really the only knock.

“I find that their beef selection is very limited to non existent - really the only knock.”

True…I attribute this to beef being somewhat less common than other meats and seafood in Asian cuisine, in particular in China where my partner was born. In fact, my partner can’t stand even the smell of beef such that I can’t even cook it in our apartment. Not that I’m complaining too much with the current high prices of beef. I read today Trump is aiming to fix that by clearing the way for more beef imports. I get my beef fix by almost always getting the burger on the rare occasions we eat out. Given my frugal nature, I find the hamburger is usually one of the least expensive options, sometimes comes with fries, and is often more filling than the more expensive entrees.

@911: always curious: do you have a favorite burger?

I must admit I’m no burger aficionado! I’ve never really had a bad one, but some have been more memorable than others. It’s just that i eat out so infrequently, I can’t remember the ones that have really stood out to me. But what I can say: I’ve never ordered a cheeseburger or hamburger in a restaurant and walked away disappointed. I always feel I’m getting as close to my moneys worth as possible. Also, you can never judge a burger joint by appearances, I do think the best burgers are found in “greasy spoon” establishments. One I do remember because it was a birthday gift from my girlfriend, Pearl’s deluxe burger on Post Street in San Francisco’s Tenderloin district. The Tenderloin district is not where the tourist brochures tell you to visit in SF, it’s rife with homeless, drug addicts, trash, and hotels that charge by the hour. And Pearls is really a very basic, small establishment with barely enough seating if you don’t want to take out. It’s definitely not a place you take a first date to impress. But the burgers are excellent, most under $10, and if you add their fries or scrumptious onion rings, you’re looking at under $15 for an extremely satisfying meal…

Sounds delish. Last time I was in NY I had a nice one at Lovely's Old Fashioned Hamburger on 9th Ave in Hell's Kitchen for not much money. This is making me hungry.

>> I do think the best burgers are found in “greasy spoon” establishments

I’m generally partial to 1/2-lb dry-aged monstrosities, but the greasy diner stylings of Joe Jr on 3rd Ave & 16th St are quite proper IMO.