smaller brokers - why aren't they listing here?

The primary reason is that many / most of the smaller shops in Brooklyn and Queens often do not cobroke their listings with other brokers. I'll let others more familiar with the outer boroughs Real Estate practices explain the / why's / mindset / tradition at play here.

Whether or not the larger firms you mention advertise heavily on the alternative websites, since they are REBNY members, they must and do cobroke their B/Q listings.

Someone please explain the cobroke thing again for me... These boro brokers don't have to co-broke?

Wouldn't a seller want the most people to come see the apt (ergo potentially getting a better price)?

For that matter wouldn't a broker prefer to have traffic on an open house?

Cobroking simply means that the Real Estate listing firm is willing to work with (i.e., share the fee with) another firm that brings a buyer that leads to a successful sale. What you and I might consider the proper and usual way of doing things is not always the "law of the land" in the outer boroughs - as well as sometimes in Manhattan - at least as far as with many of the smaller firms. Again, my work is exclusively in Manhattan, so I'd like to hear from the B/Q authorities.

Also depends on the part of those boros. Eastern Queens is serviced by small brokers and larger brokers who also service Nassau County. Same with some eastern neighborhoods in Brooklyn. Many of them see those areas as separate from the rest of the city. And the co-broke part is key. Many would rather see if they can move the property without another broker and make the full commission. This happens far less in Manhattan, but it certainly happens, at the biggest firms and the smallest. Ask any broker and they will tell you about people who don't list for a while after they've had the listing, or are never "able to schedule a showing" with another broker, etc.

OK - neighborhoods I'm referring to are:
QNS: Jackson Heights, Sunnyside, Woodside, Astoria
BKYN: Crown Heights, Prospect Lefferts Garden, Kensington, Ocean Parkway, Fort Greene et al...

In general Brooklyn's listings are better marketed than Queens.
Those Queens neighborhoods are what I would consider Western Queens.

Wouldn't the sellers want their brokers to market widely?

Some of these brokers don't have websites, or even put up listings in their windows so you can see what they've got when you at least happen to stumble by. I would think from a business perspective making those listings get in front of more eyes would get an apartment seen and sold faster. No?

SMALLER BROKERS -- Please shed some light on this :-)

Good question tandare. I recently sold a co-op in Astoria (without an agent so I can't give you a first-person account) but there were a few listings in the building for sale at the same time as mine. I knew they were for sale cause I'd see people coming in and out of the building to see them but I had a hard time finding the actual listings online to see my competition. It was actually very kryptic. I had to call the agent from the listing on the NY Times web site (a place where mainly buyers and not brokers look) to get any info on pricing and I NEVER saw the agent showing potential buyers who had agents, always just perspective buyers (one of the apartments for sale was right next door to mine so I got very used to her tactics with the potential buyers).

So I guess I'm saying it's a commission thing and if I had to guess I'd say that these agents are less eager to share commission because, on average, the sale prices are lower so the potential profit is less to begin with. Just my guess. Another guess (and I'm from Queens so I'm just being honest) is that they can get away with these tactics more than they could in Manhattan because they assume the sellers wouldn't be quite as knowledgeable and wouldn't question the status quo of these agencies.

Oh I should also mention that the agent was from Prudential (not a small agency) and represented 80% of listings in the building for some odd reason. Again, you'd think sellers would understand the conflict of interest in having one agent show all potential buyers who call her all three of her listings in the same building at the same time. You'd think you'd want your agent to just work for your sale. In any case, these are the things agents can get away with when people don't question things.

kimerama, thanks for the insights. Seems so weird to me - they get less traffic if no one knows about their listings! And for buyers, wouldn't they want the most people possible to know their apartment was on offer? It has made finding apts in the areas we're looking so much more difficult. Gets frustrating to constantly be trawling for hints on where apartments are.

To any brokers who represent apartments in the boros -- help your willing buyers out and list your properties widely, please!

Anyone else have any experience or insights on this issue?

Hmmm, Any downside to listing here...

I have a coop on the market and my agent is not listed here.

I'd also guess is that a lot of these smaller brokers are not as technically savvy. I'm sure bigger brokers have IT departments and feed their listings to many of these sites. I've asked StreetEasy about some smaller brokers before and they have reached out to them to get their listings on the site.

If you know a broker whose listings aren't on here and they have listings in an area streeteasy covers, you can provide streeteasy with the broker/agency contact info and streeteasy will contact them, I believe. I provided info about two GV agencies some time back and they are now listed.

or, better yet, start up your own agency and get the listings distributed more widely. I mean, you identified a problem and may be able to capitalize on the solution.

I think most brokers are lazy and only do things when forced by their clients

I like the name anonilicious

Because it is REALLY HARD to figure out how to add a listing to Street Easy, and frustrating too. They need an easy interface for this. I've been trying to find out how for two hours but have had no success

kylewest - did not occur to me to send the info streeteasy's way. thanks!

jaspernonbeliever - you have a point...

Reaper -- I can't see a downside to making sure your listing is on streeteasy et al.

Ok, I'll bite that smaller brokers may not be as tech-savvy. However... they should at least be able to put up craigslist and NYTimes listings -- and for that matter put up an open house notice on craigslist more than a few hours before it starts. Right? Is that so crazy?

I think some of the smaller brokers don't list for a couple of reasons: (1) the listings have to be manually updated and they don't like doing it, (2) they aren't technically savvy and aren't sure how to do it, (3) the transparency this sight gives to RE freaks them out and undermines their standard operating procedures in deal making.

kyle - your reasoning may be right, but reasons numbers 1 and 2 make me cringe - they don't like doing it? Probably true for some, but seriously? Ugh.

Transparency probably does peeve them off, but these days when you can get public records on comps from PropertyShark and ACRIS -- the entire busines is more transparent than it used to be.

Oh, well I can hope...

Here's the breakdown on how brokers operate, from the perspective of a co-op and condo investor who has flipped scores of apartments in all 5 boros over the past five and a half years:

First, understand that every boro is viewed and operated as its own region (and some as two or even three regions; more on that in a bit.) And each region has different rules by which its brokers play the game, whether by force or practical necessity.

In Manhattan, virtually all brokerages are members of REBNY, the Real Estate Board of New York, a loosely bound association of brokers that includes all the big shops you've heard of (Corcoran, Elliman, Halstead etc. and a lot of smaller ones you haven't.). Despite the seemingly comprehensive name, it really should be called REBM (as in, Manhattan), because almost all of the companies who are members are based in Manhattan and the vast majority of the listings they have are based in that prized boro. (In fact, before certain outer boro neighborhoods like Williamsburg, Brooklyn Heights, LIC etc became white-hot, virtually ALL Rebny members had Manhattan listings almost exclusively.)

REBNY has very strict rules that all of its members are expected to abide by. These include a provision that when a REBNY broker is hired to sell a particular parcel of property, that broker has only 72 hours in which he has a TRUE exclusive, in the sense that he can market it however he wants, and can inform, or not inform, any competing or cooperating brokers to whatever extent he chooses. After the 72 hour window expires, said broker is OBLIGATED by REBNY rules (which all members must comply with) to advertise the listing on a shared database of listings that all REBNY members have access to. Thus, if you hire Joe Shmo at Corcoran, he has 72 hours to try to sell the apt himself and collect the entire 6% commission. After that time, he MUST advertise the listing on the REBNY database, and every other broker has the right to see it and insist that Joe Shmo show the unit to his client. Joe Shmo has a great disincentive for doing that; if a Halstead broker, who saw Joe Shmo's listing on the REBY database, has a buyer who makes an offer, the 6% commission you agreed to pay Joe Shmo at Corcoran is shared both by Mr. Shmo and the Halstead broker. If Mr. Shmo sells the unit during the first 72 hours or at any subsequent time to a buyer NOT affiliated with another broker, then he keeps the entire 6% himself.

Because virtually all Manhattan brokers are REBNY members, its database is excellent and comprehensive. The one drawback is that the public cannot access REBNY directly - only brokers can. This all but assured that both buyers and sellers on most Manhattan deals will each be represented by a broker, thereby giving a greater chance to two brokers to each collect a 3% commission. When REBNY tried to open the playing field a little bit by creating a new public database on which brokers could (but were not obligated to) post their listings, not every big name broker agreed to sign on. Thus, on the site (residentialnyc.com), dubbed by REBNY as the 'greatest source of NYC real estate' or something, you only get listings from some brokers. Others (namely Corcoran, NYC's biggest) refuse to post their listings there, and post them only on the REBNY broker database - thereby giving their agents a greater chance of getting commissions as buyers' brokers.

Like Manhattan, Queens and Staten Island have excellent, comprehensive databases that contain most brokers' listings. Unlike Manhattan however, there is a significant number of smaller brokers (particularly in Queens) who work outside of the Queens and Staten Island networks (called MLSLI and SIBOR, respectively) and who do NOT post their listings on a shared database. Those brokers who don't share are failing to do so for one reason: greed. They absolutely, positively do not serve the interests of their clients by refusing to participate in the large network of brokers, as they fail to reach the widest possible net of buyers. They do, however, very much serve their own personal interests, as the failure to share means they will more than likely be the sole broker on the transaction and pocket the entire 6% commission. Because prices in the outer-boros are generally significantly lower than those in Manhattan, I reckon most brokers in the boros who don't share justify their greed to their own consciences (if they have them at all) by saying they need to hoard the entire listing in order to survive. Of course, brokers will NEVER advertise that they refuse to participate in the SIBOR or MLSLI systems to their clients; if they did, they'd likely face a revolt and/or a significant loss of business. In their contracts with buyers, they'll include a deftly worded clause that contains some shifty language like 'we may or may not choose to list on a multiple listing service' (an alternate name for these databases) and bury it in paragraph 53.

Part of the reason why these brokers are able to get away with not serving the best interests of their clients is that unlike Manhattan, Queens neighborhoods are often considered both by brokers and buyers/sellers as individual towns, rather than neighborhoods in a larger city. Buyers tend to look for dwellings in one or two particular 'towns', not in a disparate array of neighborhoods as a Manhattan buyer might. Many smaller brokers have been around so long that they've established something of a fiefdom in a particular town, and have an established reputation - buttressed by continual business - for being the main mover and shaker in town. It's kind of a self-perpetuating cycle: the continued business they get allows them to solidify their reputation as the one major player and enables relatively quick sales. It obviates the need to reach out to a wider pool of buyers, even though doing so might increase prices and/or quicken sales even further. MPC Properties in Jackson Heights, a coveted Queens neighborhood, is one such example. They are by no means the only players in Jackson Heights, but they've been around a long time and dub themselves the 'Premier' brokers in the neighborhood. The volume of work they do bears that out. People in Jackson Heights know them, hire them to sell their places, and buyers looking in the neighborhood go to them too. MPC adamantly refuses to list on MLSLI and scarcely co-brokers with other brokers. And they almost don't have to, because the same core group of people continually utilize them. Listing on MLSLI would be far more ethical, cast a wider net, and likely produce an influx of new buyers into the neighborhood, but they want to hoard the entire commissions and buyers and sellers allow them to. There are several such examples throughout Queens.

The Bronx and Brooklyn are an entirely different hodgepode of the Manhattan and Queens/SI situations. Broooklyn is a mess: the prime neighborhoods (Williamsburg, Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights, etc.) have been inundated with REBNY transplants from Manhattan and many of those listings appear on the REBNY database. Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst, and some surrounding areas in south Brooklyn that have been bastions of middle-class living for ages have their own multiple listing service (aptly named the Bensonhurst/Bay Ridge MLS.) And the rest of Brooklyn has its own INDEPENDENT MLS system, which has been trying to merge for a while with the Bensonhurst/Bay Ridge one. On top of that, there are a LOT of Brooklyn brokers, both in prime neighborhoods and less white-hot ones, that operate as MPC does in Queens (Brooklyn Properties, in Park Slope and the Ditmas Park area is a prime example): they have pretty websites and lure sellers and buyers in as authentic, premier locals. But inasmuch as they do NOT advertise on any MLS system, their pool of buyers is limited solely to those who happen to walk by their offices, see a print ad, see their website, etc.

The Bronx is configured (or misconfigured) much like Brooklyn. It too has multiple MLS systems (a "Northern Manhattan/Bronx" one, a Westchester one that carries a lot of Bronx listings, and I believe another exclusively Bronx one) in addition to private neighborhood 'specialists' who don't share.

In sum, unlike virtually every other region of the country, NYC has no uniform means of advertising property and ensuring that all prospective buyers see a particular problem. One would have to browse several multiple listing databases, and visit a LOT of storefronts for the many smaller shops that refuse to share, to get a sense of everything available for sale in our town. In addition, the fact that many, if not most NYC brokers (particularly in Manhattan) are brokers but not 'realtors' (don't ask me what the difference is there), their listings do NOT appear on national broker databases (like realtor.com) where the rest of the country's brokers' listings DO appear. The largest and most expensive real estate market in the country is, as you might expect, a hodgepodge in which everyone is trying to grab as large a piece of the pie as possible. And in most cases, that does not work to the benefit of sellers.

Excellent, excellent explanation of the hodge-podge of listing associations throughout the outer boroughs.

Just a few things to add:

- The REBNY timeframe requirement to cobroke has recently been changed from 72 to 24 hrs

- To be clear, and while it makes little difference to the clients, the commission on a cobroke transaction is shared four ways (two firms and two agents)

- A "Realtor" is simply a Real Estate agent or broker (and their firm) who belongs to the National (and State) Association of Realtors, in addition to another affiliation called the Manhattan MLS. My firm (a relatively small company) requires its agents / brokers to join both REBNY and NAR / Manhattan MLS, whereas many other firms don't.

I've been an agent for a couple of years now. In that time have done ONE clean Brooklyn deal, which was a co-broke with Halstead, and ONE clean Queens deal, which was a co-broke with Terrace Realty -- both rentals.

My responses from everybody else have ranged from "oh, that unit is off the market" to "oh, you can see it, but I can't show it today/tomorrow/next week" to "you have a choice -- we can give your client the apartment if she comes direct, but if you refer her, the apartment would not be available." {which a Fort Greene broker actually said to my boss.}

I don't understand why it's economically feasible to co-broke a $600,000 listing in Manhattan but not a $800,000 listing in the outer boros, but apparently it isn't, and forget about rentals.

At this point, if someone calls me up and says "Brooklyn" -- I give 'em a pat on the head and a list of good lawyers.

ali r.
{downtown Manhattan broker; Member, Real Estate Board of New York}

I'm surprised by your experience, Frontporch.

I'm not a broker, but as an investor with a constantly revolving inventory, deal with brokers a ton. On the whole, I'd say I dislike the profession as a whole. Brokers tend to be sycophantic, full of it, work for themselves when they claim to work for you, get paid far too much (yes, yes, I know, you have to split your commission, but that doesn't change the fact that I'M paying too much for you and your firm's services) and perform a service whose necessity will be rendered all but obsolete by the internet.

That said, I haven't had much experience with buyers' agents in the outerboros complaining that my broker won't open a door or show them a listing. That may have something to do with the fact that as an investor who always has more to give to his agents, it doesn't pay for them to hoard a commission on one deal if they know that if I catch them I'll never work with them again. Still, I'd be surprised that your experience with brokers failing to be cooperative is as widespread as you claim.