Two Northside Piers

Hi,

I have also bought on one of the lower floors, but got no e-mail regarding closing letter. Can I ask who sent you this e-mail?

what does the vline look at?...and when did you sign the contract?

@GusGus, not sure if I am allowed to mention other peoples names here. send me an email at uu_82@hotmail.com, and I'll give you the sales associate's name.

@buyerbuyer, V line looks at north west, you can see manhattan starting from the factor on the lower east side all the way up to the bridge. one can easily see the empire state etc... UN is a bit hard to identify from it though... go to the link below, on the right choose views in stead of floorplan and click on any of the vlines from 2nd floor to the 5th...
http://www.northsidepiers.com/floorplansTower2.shtml

What mortgage are you using? Wells Fargo won't close till it's 70% sold. But they do count phase 1 & phase 2 together tho.

Their preferred lender has higher rate on jumbo loans.

also, any recommendation or real estate attorney for NSP? please~

Our lawyer has worked with another client for a unit with NSP and has been dealing with the sponsor. He is very familiar with the offering plan and has been VERY picky and critical with the contract. (This is good!):

Kevin Farelly 212-684-8700 kjf@farrellylaw.com

We are using their preferred lender TBI, but try Sunny Hong with Bank of America. I'm not sure if he'll give better rates but he can give you more info on financing this kind of development. I know BOA requires 51% owner occupied units. IF they count NSP1 it may qualify.

sunny.hong@bankofamerica.com

After the downpayment, I don't think our loan amount will be a jumbo loan for NYC. We worked with TBI but I also have a contact at Sterling National Bank (email me and I can send u his contact) and it sounds like they are willing to give a loan as well. I might also try Chase as a comparison. I will look at the 3 rates and figure out which one works best for us.

Our lawyer was Jon B. Felice & associates. They have been great so far.

Today a letter arrived dated 11Aug2010 signed by Adam. They expect TCOs in the coming "weeks". They will close "lower" floors shortly after receiving the TCOs, they anticipate initial closings will begin in October. By phone they have said to me floors 1-6 in October, floors 6-9 in November, and floors 9 December and beyond...

Thank you LookPied and uu82 ~

I was looking though acris for some lawyers used for NSP 1, when I noticed there is one recorded closing of 12C in NSP 2? Check out block 2340 lot 1412... I have no clue how there is a deed and mortgage recorded on 4/12/2010 for unit 12C.

I am in contract at NSP2 and also received the letter. I don't know if any of you had heard, but Bloomberg announced today on the news that the City has approved a waterfront taxi pier which will be between North 5th and 6th (essentially right out the back door). This will definitely increase value and accessibility. I think I am using TBI for the mortgage as most other banks require more than 50% sold. If any of you have suggestions, please let me know.

Also, as far as an attorney goes, Richard Feldman has been fantastic and been a great help. He is very familiar with the offering plan and extremely effective at negotiating with the sponsor's attorney. Message or email me for contact information.

Has anyone received a concrete answer on which floors are to close in the October timeframe? I have walked by the building a number of times since I signed the contract back in May and it appears to be visibility finished. Hopefully the TCO will not be an issue but again, based on the city's approval of the water taxi pier, I suspect they will not have many problems. The City seems to be invested in this area.

I checked what re_guru said and it looks to be true...how can they close a residential unit (12C) before getting a TCO?

They can close a unit, but the buyer can't move in until the TCO is issued. Developers give concessions to a buyer who is willing to close without a TCO. They only need one, however. The offering plan allows buyers to back out if the developer hasn't started closings by a certain time stated in the plan. If they close on just one unit, all the other buyers are locked in indefinitely. This covers the developer if there are any delays in permits/construction that would push them past the deadline to deliver the unit. Is the date in the offering plan getting close? That could explain this closing.

I am in a different Toll Bros. building. We used TBI Mortgage and thought they were great to deal with. Much faster, more competent, and much better customer service than the bank we had tried to use initially ( Chase ) . They had competitive rates at the time....

@mwade-thanks! i think the outside date is not until 2011, but maybe they are being safe? good to know about TBI mortgage.

josephindusi06: How do I email you? I am in the process of signing a contract and could use some helpful tips from someone who already went through this process. I may want to use your attorney's services.

Thank you

josephindusi06: to make it easy, you can email me at michael270580@gmail.com. Thank you!

Maybe I should direct this question in the 1 NSP discussions, but does anyone know is 1 NSP raised their common charges after the condo board took control of the building from the sponsor? Or if they made any changes to the amenities to keep costs low? I remember reading the roof deck was rather tiny due to the cabanas (hate it when condos do that!); has anyone been up there?

Good question ruguru. Has the condo board comprised of owners taken over? (another condo i am familiar with had the docs loaded so the sponsor could control for 5 years even after selling all but one or something, which, i kinda wondered, might be related to forestalling any legal claims, for issues such as, water in basement, which an owne told me is an issue at nsp1)..,

Also -- when people keep speculating about later increases in charges (which i surely realize is a risk, given the incentive of the seller to make things looks artificially wonderful to induce sales) isn't that , realistically, less of an issue at Edge or NSP given the huge number of units to share the costs of doorman or pool etc, (in contrast, it would seem to me to be a much bigger risk at 80 met with only 122 units or maybe some more including 58 met)

@re_guru-common charges at 5SL, another Toll Brothers project with similar amenities, are ~77-80 cents psf on resales (the building has sold out). I looked at resales on SE.

@mwade-if you live at 5SL, has the condo board of owners taken over and what was the change in cc's from before?

Here's a post from this discussion thread. It seems that maintenance was reduced at NSP1:

cheeseburger
about 7 months ago
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CB:
Maintenance -- building has excellent financials, so common charges have actually been reduced across the board since I moved in, and even frozen for a two-month period (so I'm A-OK with that!).

Construction -- was over by the time I moved in, and I'm not bothered by the construction that is occuring on the surrounding buildings. It will be over eventually and I really think the waterfron will be a lovely site.

Management -- has always been quick to respond to any issue.

Heat/Water -- no major issues.

M:
I've lived in the building for almost a year. I own. I'm staying for a LONG time (10+ years). Doorman will usually put my frozen items in the refrigerator if I'm not at home. Other Fresh Direct items come from the truck so cold anyway, it doesn't matter if it takes me an hour to retreive them from the doorman. I always drink the tap water. And I rarely use the roof deck. I prefered the pier when it was open.

2 Northside Piers is FHA approved so FHA financing will become available. Although it may not be the best option for those putting down 20% or more. Conditional Fannie Mae approval was granted and just waiting for 51% pre-sale to turn it over to a Final Fannie approval. sunny.hong@bankofamerica.com

@buyerbuyer-could you comment more on water in basement issue? The F Line in NSP2 has a balcony on starting at the 12th floor, if you haven't already looked into it.

@shong-will the BofA rate for 20% down at NSP2 currently be the same as the rate on your website w/o add'l fees/points? if not, what % in contract at NSP2 before the rate becomes the same? NSP1 counts towards this number?

ReWater: I have no idea how serious it is, if at all, but a resident I saw there when I was walking around casually mentioned a problem with water in the basement that they were having trouble resolving. He didnt seem very concerned, but he brought it up out of the blue. I just threw that in as an example of potential issues that the condo board might have with the developer in any building.

I will be looking at f and g lines.

Any thoughts here on pricing of 14F -- they are asking 600,000, 714 sf, view southish. That is 840$ psf, so does that seem what the market is these days for a "desirable" unit in nsp2.

and it has a balcony...[another example is 19G, which is asking 800,000 or 866$psf for 923sf)

I guess my question is -- is this 866psf now considered reasonable price? By way of comparison, in the NSP1 J line (which was two bed and had balcony and a view that remains post-building 2, more or less i think) they were originally closing at 900psf BUT in 09 and 10 some closed at like 707psf, 760psf, etc.

and....what should the ppsf reasonable be for something comparable at The Edge?..same, some premium?....

asdf - 2NSP got conditional fannie approval. Fannie does allow combining phases for pre-sale. So it is very well possible we can start lending with the inclusion of 1NSP's sales helping the pre-sale numbers. Typically Fannie goes with 70% of a phase or 51% of the conbined. We can start lending FHA but can only start lending conventional at today's competitive rates with Fannie type approval.

asdf - I do live in 5SL. The common charges stayed the same after the board took over. The building has a very healthy reserve fund. For the first full year the building ran in the black off the CC's alone. That's very rare. They usually are increased after the first year, sometimes dramatically. Very well managed.

@buyerbuyer-here is an article from Miller Samuel (a respected NYC appraiser) on valuing outdoor space
http://matrix.millersamuel.com/?p=8015

NSP2 has been giving a 10% (or more) price discount + some/all closing costs paid to recent buyers according to this board. Since 14F & 19G haven't sold yet, even with those discounts, you should offer less than that and see if you can meet between. The 2BR in NSP1 were less popular than the 1BR b/c of the higher carrying costs (as LookPied mentioned) and 1BR being more popular than 2BR in Williamsburg (opposite of rest of NYC) resulting in a lower psf. It might be hard to get 707 psf on 1BR with a balcony. Also, go to the Edge and ask to see units with outdoor space regardless of view b/c what they have isn't really listed on their website or SE. The Edge offered a price discount of 10%-15% and paid for all closing costs a few months ago. 80 Met has terraces on the 1st floor units (which I think you disliked b/c of noise from nearby HVACs) and penthouse units (maybe wait for larger discount?).

also--thanks LookPied, shong, & mwade.

buyerbuyer,

I love the F line especially with the balcony, except the BR is dark due to a relatively small east facing window. The view is nice (bridges and Brooklyn) and won't be affected by Phase 3. The kitchen and LR are filled with light. We liked the G line except for the large hallway/foyer and this was the view (at the 6th floor) where you had to crane your neck a little to see midtown while sitting in the LR.

Is 14F worth 600K? 10F is listed at 509K (available in May when we asked) and 8F was under contract with list of 499K. 10F and 8F have no view and no balcony. This type of apartment if on a 2nd or 3rd floor of a small boutique condo away from the waterfront would easily sell at this range (esp with 10% off). So the question is: is the balcony AND the view worth 100K. Of course I think so! Then again no one has bought it yet, so its value really hasn't been determined. So it comes to you to decide what it's worth.

Have you toured with the brokers yet? There possibly are units that are available that are not on SE or their website. For example 10F (in May at least) and 14C (available for $655,590).

Getting ready to sign at 2NSP. Studio on low floor to get in to the bldg. Does anyone know how the 421A abatement works? We are on a low floor and will close likely by October...will we have to pay RE Taxes until the 421A is approved? Anyone in Tower One - did that 421A get approved? Also did anyone that has signed have title provision concerns raised by their attorney? Thanks!

njbuyer, how were they were pricing concessions for the studios? Which studio lines did you look at? I'm interested in a studio at NSP2 or the Edge.

12F, with the same layout and balcony as 14F, had a list price of 541K.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/351581-condo-4-north-street-williamsburg-brooklyn

Why the 58K difference in list price one floor up (NSP2 has no floor 13)?

I guess 12f also clears 184 kent but as you get lower down 184 kent is more in your face.....but thats a lot for one floor, as you say.

NSP2 doesn't have a 13th floor, but it's still 1 floor up. 14 is really 13.

LIC_Queens not giving huge concessions since it is one of the lowest priced in the building...its the D line and pricing is about 5% off list plus about 2% in closing costs. Anyone have the scoop on the 421A or TCO status? Also anyone get an actual closing notice yet?

njbuyer,
The 421A application is pending approval. I am not sure exactly what the process is , what is required, or when it becomes effective. I've heard that there can be a delay between when closings start and when the abatement becomes effective. I've heard that if you pay full taxes before the abatement takes effect that you will receive a refund later based on the abated rate.

Ah, I see njbuyer. I was looking at 3D for 400k and would have thought they'd give up way more of a concession since 164 Kent blocks a lot of light and won't NSP3 also block views?

But thx for the info!

My impression is that ppsf for NSP1 views is asking about 850-900+, and higher for the dead-on best views. Edge is say 10% higher. Things are nowhere near crisis sales levels when NSP1 sold the cool (permanent) view J line, with balcony, as low as 707ppsf (vs peak buyers have paid 900+)......

i meant to say nsp2 re asking price...

As a first time buyer I have no idea *how* to make an offer on this place. Appreciate any help..

I need to get a mortgage but don't want to be forced to use TBI. Must I wait until the TCO in order to try to work with Citibank?

nohope...just be aware that if you sign the contract on thier terms, you are completely at thier mercy in terms of your deposit...in other words..lets say you lose your job between signing and closing...they will keep your deposit.

@Nohope: Feel free to email me, josephindusi@hotmail.com

The 421a is not in place yet and the buyer is responsible for paying full taxes for up to the first 6 months I believe. You do get credited for the amount of taxes you you pay in excess of the abatement, but it's still bullshit since you'll never fully use all that money if you wind up paying a couple months of full taxes unless you live there for the full 25 years. That was one thing I did not like to hear from my lawyer lol, too bad the sales agents will never tell you this:\

Or the fact that 50% of the building can be rental, or that the soil had to be cleaned before they built on it lol. I guess it didn't stop 1 NSP buyers, and it's not a big issue for me.

njbuyer: sales team, lawyers, keeps saying October closing for floors 1-6 and late November December for the other floors. I think some people already mentioned getting notices.

LIC_Queens: 3 NSP obstruct a lot of your view, and I think I read in the offering plan there's going to be townhouses around it too. So, 3D may not even clear those? I'm not sure, but you'd definitely want to clear that up

@re_guru- Yup, I wouldn't expect to keep whatever view I would have with a lower level unit in the 'D' line at NSP2. And I think NSP3 is years and years away.

But you would think they'd be more flexible with pricing for the studios that will lose views or barely have any to begin with. A 400k *asking* price seems excessive in this economic climate.

@re_guru-was there any issue with the 421a at 1NSP? how long between the first closing and the 421a approval? the 50% rental situation is to protect the sponsor and give them more time to sell without cutting prices by too much. are you still going into contract?

Most former industrial areas in NYC needed remediation before building, so most of the new construction in Williamsburg, Greenpoint, or LIC would have need the same environmental clean up. however, air pollution is a bigger problem in large parts of Manhattan, so these areas have lower cancer rates than Gramercy or most of midtown Manhattan.

asdfasf1234 I probably will. I'm really only concerned with how well The Edge's closings go, because if they don't give some of those 2008 contracts any reasonable discount who knows what % of that building will actually close. Probably less than the 35% they say as being in contract:\ Has anyone been heard roughly how many units have actually closed? They can't remain firm on pricing forever. If you've noticed 80 Met keeps having small price cuts every now and then. Inventory in this area is a huge concern for me.
Does anyone know how long it took 1 NSP to get 421a after the first closing? Could be different though since that was summer 08 just before the Lehman collapse.

LIC_Queens I know a few months ago the Edge was giving about a 7% discount on price and covering most closing costs for the E and F line studios. Maybe you'll get a better price there.

re--guru -- I hear your concerns. A couple thoughts:

- the two developers with a lot of inventory to get rid of seem little disposed to massive cuts (referring to 80 met and Edge)...so unlikely to see massive cut in those places after you buy....
- the developer who has shown a cut throat willingness to slash if needed has already done so, and reduced their inventory massively, and is now actiing more like the edge or 80 met [referring to toll brothers]
- strong rentals in the area make it less likely we will see a huge price cuts even if things dont go great in sales -- maybe little cuts like 80 met doing....

Anyone know anything about flood insurance in a waterfront building like this? If there were flood damage (hurricane finally hits nyc...but I don't know if this building would be in the zone) does the building have master coverage over the whole physical structure to cover the possibly huge cleanup costs? (is this a non-issue for some reason?). Would contents insurance in each apartment normally have some flood/hurricane exclusion?....i dunno...is this a real issue?

@buyerbuyer- Yes, waterfront buildings usually has flood coverage themselves, but it's something you should look into on your own or ask the sales people at Toll.

Crap, the one studio I was really into, 3D, is now off market. But 5D has replaced it...with an asking price 8k higher. I guess 4k a floor is sort of standard though.

I'm wondering about why and how they release their studios. So 5D and 14D and 24D have been released. What about 6D? Or 17D? Or 22D?

Anyone have any insights?

They are all up for sale. You just have to ask at the sales office and they will give you the listing price for each unit in the building.

LIC_Queens at other buildings we looked at we were told $5k a floor.

Anyone hear anything further on closing notices or the TCO status?

any of you nsp people have any thoughts on window treatment?..at night the edge and nsp2 will be looking at each other....and nsp1 looks at nsp2....etc.....i posted a question on a specific thread on floor to ceiling windows

buyerbuyer: I'm a resident at 1NSP and buying in 2NSP. My recommendation is to move in, and then look at all your options. Hunter Douglas makes several products, my favorite are the verticals. Be very sure that they are installed in the ceiling, and not drilled into the metal window frames. Silhouettes are beautiful, but are worthless, and collect insects in them where you can't get at them to clean them up. They provide no light filtering. The best product from Hunter Douglas is definitely the Luminettes, they darken the room pretty well, and look great. However, at my unit in 2NSP I will install high quality double-tracks in the ceiling for draperies, meeting the condo requirement of a white-colored window-facing drapery and a second decorative window drapery to match decor and provide light filtering.

Apart from light during the day, my main concern is privacy at night while still feeling like I'm not shutting out the view -- is that possible with these products?....

If you have a sheer with draperies - yes. With both hunter douglas products I mentioned, yes. Hunter Douglas have a nice website which demonstrates privacy but with transparency to see outside in one configuration, and total privacy with no transparency in the other configuration.

@njbuyer- I believe on the lower floor studios, it's 4k a floor and then once you clear the other building across the way, it jumps up a bit..probably 5k. Just a guess though.

1st question-is the Austin Nichols building to the south, 184 Kent, landmarked? If not, what could stop them from building giant penthouses on top or a new building and blocking views?

2nd question-why the jump in prices from the 12th floor to the 13th floor (aka floor 14 b/c of the way floors are numbered). I understand that 184 kent partially blocks views as you go lower, but why is 14F 58k more than 12F, for example?

3rd question--do they have a TCO yet or the tax abatement in place?

The following is some fact/some opinion.

184 Kent is completed, although the plan two years ago called for a 15 story build, what they did when the economy soured was to make the gutted center into a resident courtyard and amenity center and converted rental. The building is getting very full with renters.

I can only guess about the disparity between 12F and 14F, perhaps an anticipated loss of view, such as your previous question on whether 184 will be built up down the road.

No TCO yet, at least I haven't seen a notice to close, and I am on the 6th floor so I assume low enough to be one of the buyers to close early on.

I'm not clear as to why the tax abatement question keeps coming up in this discussion board. The buyer plan for the 2nd tower provides a clear opinion on the eligibility for 421a. If there was a hiccup in receiving the final 421a certification on tower 2, you can imagine all hell breaking loose, the developer and buyers would most likely sue the NYC Dept of Finance.

If tower 1 met the requisites for 421a status, then why would you believe tower 2 would not? I don't mean to offend anyone here, but the question of 421a is not something to be concerned with. If you are considering buying, and are anxious over the 421a, you only need to wait for the initial TCO, once in place we'll know definitively one way or the other about the 421a certification. Good luck to all of us.

Thanks WilliamsburgNYC
To clarify-
184 Kent has on-again/off again landmark status, although according the NY daily news, it is federally landmarked as the developer got tax credits in exchange for the landmarking. Does this mean 184 Kent can't build higher?

"After some early controversy caused by the previous owners, who evicted long-term tenants and lobbied the city council to have the New York City Landmark Commission%u2019s decision to protect the building overturned (owners wanted to build a seven-story glass box on top for a condominium conversion), Halpern%u2019s group bought out the owners and secured 184 Kent as a rental. Immediately, JMH went through a nine-month process of having the building federally landmarked, allowing him tax credits on the rehab."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/real_estate/2010/03/12/2010-03-12_rent_on_kent_dose_of_authenticity_at_huge_rental_building_drives_biz_on_williams.html#loop1#ixzz0zErKAKJI

For me, the 421a question is because I don't want to pay taxes for several months while waiting for the 421a to be put in place. I'm notfamiliar with what happens between getting the TCO and having the abatement in place and what the lag time is.

Word has it that closing notices are going out this week for NSP2. Anyone else hear anything?

Hi, I always hear people comment that 2NSP has better pricing than the Edge. What is the factual support? Looking at some recent closings at the Edge, it seems interior units are closing at about $650 PSF. I don't see anything comparable for 2NSP. Maybe Streeteasy is not listing them, so can some of you opine on what is PSF on interior or lower 1BRs at 2NSP?

njbuyer: I haven't received a notice, but I will certainly post if such an event were to occur. This weekend I walked the pier, and noted lounge furniture on the "outside" deck area by the pool of Tower 2. I think you are likely right that they are imminent, I can't imagine buying outdoor furniture unless residents were expected to enjoy it right away.

joseesq that closing at the Edge probably had very little to no view of anything. Judging from the floor plan it was a studio though I guess you could easily put up a wall there and make it a 1BR. I'd much prefer something like 5E at NSP, which is listed at 453k and you could probably obtain for 10% less or $651/sqft. It doesn't have a kitchen island, but it is a corner unit with lots of windows. Best of all, you'd have partial water views though 3 NSP will obstruct a lot of it in the future. Factual evidence is my net discount (price and closing cost discount) came out to $655 per sq/ft on a higher floor. I must say though, I am jealous of that basketball court in the Edge!

I think 2 NSP is shooting for October closings for the first 6 floors, so 30 day notices need to be sent out very soon. They definitely are confident about closing soon, because they were fine with me adding a drop dead date of early next year and I'm not even in the first round of closings.

184 Kent can't build any higher. Originally, when under control of the old developer, when the interior courtyard was contemplated, the displaced square footage was going to be added to the top the building - as of right. However, the new developer sought out the landmark status and granted the facade of the building and the transferable floor area in exchange for tax credits. The 1-story addition was approved as part of the easement agreement. The actual document is available through ACRIS, http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/ViewImage?Doc_ID=2008120900493001.

re_guru, thanks for the insight. A few follow ups: (1) do you offer a price that equals to $655 PSF and state that it includes sellers concessions up to a certain amount or percentage? (2) how does the closing credit? Does the sponsor pay the credit amount or does the seller and then the buyer refunds the seller?

If there are any another tips on how to offer at NSP, it would be greatly appreciated. I am not a first time home buyer, but the NYC market is much different from anything I have experienced.

thanks!

ooops. typos!

========
re_guru, thanks for the insight.

A few follow ups:

(1) do you offer a price that equals to $655 PSF and state that it includes sellers concessions up to a certain dollar amount or percentage of closing costs?

(2) how does the closing credit work? Does the sponsor pay the credit amount or does the buyer pay all closing costs and then the seller refunds the credit amount?

If there are any another tips on how to offer at NSP, it would be greatly appreciated. I am not a first time home buyer, but the NYC market is much different from anything I have experienced.

thanks!

Any insights to the interest rate people are getting these days? I'm trying to calculate closing costs/downpayments and estimate my monthly mortgage, but different mortgage calculators are giving me wildly different rates. I know it will depend on when I lock it in and close and all that, but wanted to see what people that are buying at NSP2 are getting offered and what mortgage company they're using.

LIC_Queens: I was told if I had closed two weeks ago TBI could lock 30 year fixed at 4.375% with 25% down.

joseesq: Our experience was to offer a price and negotiate seller concessions on closing costs separately. Recently negotiated 3 contracts on different buildings and all were the same process....most sponsors are willing to consider at least NY transfer taxes. You can see the median of price per sf for all of Brooklyn, and can narrow that down to Williamsburg and even to condos and by size on StreetEasy. Looks to be around $690psf now.

LIC_Queens: As for mortgages I would price it out at 4.5 to 4.75 and it will likely be lower but at least you have a high side on your potential monthly payment. TBI will not lock rates until TCO is received.

@WilliamsburgNYC- Yikes, wow, 25% down!? I was looking at putting 10% down for a studio.

@njbuyer- Thanks!

Now anyone have info on what a alcove studio could rent for in Williamsburg in NSP/Edge/NSP2?

Check out rents at 184 Kent:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/689506-rental-184-kent-avenue-williamsburg-brooklyn

Looks like 1BR's are at 2500/month. So studios may go at 2000/month?

joseesq they considered all my offers as a net price. So for instance I'd ask for 8% off list price and for them to cover closing costs up to 4% of purchase price. So if list was 500k, the offer price would be 460k and a closing cost credit of 18k. So the net price ends up being 441k or 11.7% off list price. Discounts could vary based on what line you offer on, but you should expect near 10% off. Asking for a 4%+ closing credit is win win... sale prices remain artificially high for the sponsor and for you it's cash you don't need upfront.

LIC_Queens I'm holding out as long as possible to get a mortgage... it's been under 4.5% for a couple of weeks now, so I'd expect 4.5% worse case. The way the economy is slowing, it's possible the Fed buys more US treasuries. Important dates which could effect mortgage rates:
Oct 29 - Q3 GDP
Nov 2+3 - Fed meeting
Dec 14 - Fed meeting
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2010/09/goldman-fed-may-announce-qe2-as-soon-as.html

you may not want to lock in a 4.5% mortgage because if the Fed even hints at buying US debt again or slow growth... the 30 year could be 4%.

LIC_Queens a D line studio should get around $2300 because 4F and 8F at 1 NSP rented for $2300 and $2400 recently. 184 kent studios have gone for $2000 to $2400.

When I checked at 184 Kent several months ago, they included a concession of 2 months rent free with a two year lease, so the rent is not as high as it seems. Although 4F and 8F at NSP1 were listed with rents of $2300 and $2400, they may not have rented at those rates or given some free months as well. There is no public data base that I know of that records rents the same way ACRIS records sales.

Thanks for the tips re_guru!

Thanks re-guru, your info is making this decision less daunting.

@ all. It seems that most of you posting here are at least considering going into contract at 2 NSP. On another discussion about NSP on Streeteasy the observation, supported by precrash sales and resales/short sales, is that the price sq ft is low, i have not completed a comprehensive analysis for averages, but some lines in 1 NSP have a price of $717/sq ft, and others are even lower than that, in some lines that is compared with $923/sq ft precrash. Ouch. Compare the significant value drop of 1 NSP with the current asking at 2 NSP, it's clear that the true value on any unit is lower than the pie in the sky current TB list price. Anyone buying should not accept anything less than 10% off, and some to all closing costs, if you are really creative you may even get them to give some upgrades in your unit as well (custom paint, maybe even some beautiful custom crown molding).

I'm confident you are all very savy buyers, so you already clearly see the truth about the real price per square foot.

Williamsburg...I did look carefully at the nsp1 prices. Obviously, toll bros hit the panic button for a few months and sold at huge discounts, and then, once they had reduced inventory, and the market was recovering, raised pricescl back up. Those who bought at the low point took guts, and got a good deal for it, but I don't think you can fairly call prices like 707psf with view and balcony as the "true" price. Since they have discounted about 10% at most on nsp2 and sold out about 40%, isn't that the current market price?

Well it looks like sales are picking up lately, as quite a few are being listed as off the market including PH3 listed at 2.2M. I can see a similar scenario as 1 NSP where they'll do some serious price cuts in a year or two if demand slows. The main reason I purchased now is because I'm on the lower end so even after huge discounts I still wouldn't be able to afford anything but a studio, and in another year the mortgage rate will probably be back around 5%+ unless shit hits the fan and we're in a depression. So with that logic which is indeed a risk, what I lose in price paid (~40k) I could potentially gain in mortgage interest (~40k). Also, in my opinion you either want to live there or you don't. I tried to get some unit upgrades, but the sponsor didn't even entertain that though. You'll beat yourself up and always second guess yourself if you fight tooth and nail over small concessions. It doesn't hurt to try though. For me, the 25 year tax abatement will be very rare going forward for new condos. I think that alone eases some of my inventory concerns in the area as the Edge and 80 Met have it too.

Closing costs

re_guru - did you find that closing costs were much more than 4%? As a general rule, I thought that's about right but I'm getting quoted more.

@ buybuyer Take a look at the historical information on the remaining units in 1NSP in the D-line, those with balconies, corner unit, facing southwest with views-views-views. The D line is the MOST desirable line in the building, and precrash, folks paid a hefty premium for all of the aforementioned reasons. However, if the post-crash price per square foot on those same unsold D line units is our new 'baseline' for pricing, then I would argue that irrespective of view, corner unit, outdoor space in 2 NSP the pricing remains 10% above where the market will support. So, no, I do not think the current prices reflect market valuation, even on units with the most desirable characteristics.

@re_guru Please educate me, I understood "off-market" on streeteasy to mean that the unit was no longer listed for sale, not that it was sold/in-contract. Isn't this true? As well, I do not believe 1 NSP was able to move a single penthouse, or townhouse without 40% or more discounting. I do not believe there is a "sustainable" market in Williamsburg at that end of the pricing spectrum (i.e. >$1.25M). Any sales to the contrary have been the exception, not the norm.

Hey Wmburgnyc. I think nsp2 14F (not great, because right over ugly roof of 184 kent, and very close to nsp1 building) is asking about 840psf. So, I take your point that is too high relative to the current asking price on 10d nsp1 (760 psf). [all these units have balconies so the ppsf reflects that; to me that is better than trying to assign some specific value to the balcony]. The roughly comparable units at The Edge can be had, i estimate, roughly for 840$ to 900$ psf, depending on the unit, so the Edge is at least 10% higher. But doesn't it seem like NSP2 is doing fairly well now at their asking prices...maybe giving discounts of 10% max off what they ask. Regardless of what we think about the pricing at nsp2, I got a very clear impression that for the almost sold out G line there would be NO discounting, and for the F line 10% is best you could hope for.....so, what can one do.

I guess it boils down to : if you can't get a bigger discount out of one of these builldings, then do you walk away, or buy and hope they are right that they can sell the building out at these prices, thus establishing the market firm at these levels. If you truly think it is too high, but they won't budge enough, you can only walk and wait..

So feel free to guessimate, but what could one expect closing costs to be on a 400k studio? And that can be rolled into the mortgage, no? And are there reasons not to do that or to do it?

@re_guru- Any particular reasoning behind which studio line you chose? Obv. I understand if you'd like to keep that info private.

@ buyerbuyer They won't let you walk away. It's a game of blink. If you walk away, you blinked. Stand your ground, make an offer for 10% off, be firm, think like a winner. G-line is certainly not almost sold out, they have only moved a few units in this line. The F-line is their most popular line for sure, I personally know a few buyers in this line. It's a good sized one-bedroom, and if you can afford one with a balcony, and are successful getting 10% concession, it's one of the best deals in the building. From a tactical perspective when negotiating, I would not ask the Seller where they would or would not consider a discount. In that situation, the Seller is at an advantage since by now they know more or less what you are looking for and will herd you towards the unit THEY want you to buy. I do recommend first finding the unit you like most, in the price you can afford, and irregardless of what they tell you, make an offer at 10% discount. If you want a G-line, make an offer on one at 10% off. The G-line is one that will have many units remaining after the building is 50% sold, so you if you can stand to watch and wait, you'll certainly scoop one up at 10% sooner or later, and if you wait, maybe even as much as 15%...

I guess we are getting different info. I went and saw G and F. They said ONLY one left in G (or at most one additional one, 19G which was on the website), and that the last remaining one was not even being released and would be discounted little or nothing. They said they have several in the F line so more flexible but I get the impression 10% 0ff would be the outler limits on that.

I like G but too expensive without a big discount and F not attractive to me, so I am not pursuing much there.

It is in discussions wth the Edge where they seem preparred to let people just walk rather than take lower offers.

I hear you buyerbuyer, don't mean to be difficult, but as an owner in 1 NSP, I can personally tell you when I went into contract in winter 2007, the message was exactly what you are being told today about G-line in the -line I purchased "...it's our most popular line..." "...we only have a few left..." "...we are not considering anything less than list price..." Fast forward to November 2008 and voila there are nearly a dozen of the same supposed most popular -line in the building remaining. They then went on to discount as much as $175K off their 2007 pricing. Go figure.

You've seen the G-line? What floor? What did you think? From the floorplan it seems that the square footage is misleading, there must be at least 100+ sq ft wasted in the hallway? What's your opinion, does it flow? The bedroom looks really small. How are the views?

No offense, but these real estate agents tell a lot of tall tales, these people don't change, they only seem to get more desperate, more creative, and demonstrate little to no integrity. I'm in contract on a unit in Tower 2 as well, anxious to have this process over.

re_guru brought up an interesting point, does anyone think a 30 year fixed rate can go to 45..or even lower within the next 6 months?

Wouldn't the economy be in a really crappy state for the Fed to go *that* low? I though I'd never see the day when it's below 5%, but look where we are now.

And does anyone think b/c of such low rates the developers aren't budging as much as we'd like?

Whoops, mean to say 4%, not 45. What a difference a Shift key makes.

antipodope closing costs will be around 5% of the purchase price, not including any mortgage points... 4% for a coop.. this link will give you an idea of what to expect:
http://www.corcoran.com/guides/index.aspx?page=ClosingCosts#condo

WilliamsburgNYC I know that some of the units listed as off-market have actually sold, so my assumption is PH3 sold. I could be completely wrong. Did you list any of the people you know in 2 NSP as a referral for moving from 1 NSP to 2 NSP? It is a free $2k lol...

LIC_Queens closing costs for a 400k studio will be around 20k give or take a few thousand. You could just pay closer to list price and have them pay the all your closing costs if you don't have that extra cash upfront (which I did). I got an E line unit which is barely bigger than a D studio, but I loved the corner unit views and the price was solid. The E line is around ~75% sold with 5, 6, 15 (being held by sponsor), and 19 remaining I believe (not sure about 3E or 8E). I didn't even consider the J line studios since they were all above 500k. Didn't like them that much either anyway. D line is much better priced, but 3 NSP will definitely obstruct a lot of the water. Here's a video I found on youtube of 6D for anyone curious to view... it's not mine, but there definitely needs to be more video tours of condo buildings. It could have saved me soo many weekends of looking at condos in DoBro and Wburg!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mra0y3V0VnA

@re_guru- Isn't the E line a 1 bedroom? At least 5E is listed on the northside piers website as being a 1 bedroom and it's a corner unit, like you described. Good pricing on it too. I thought in a previous post of yours that you bought a studio. Won't NSP3 obstruct the E line views as much as, if not more, than a D line unit since it's farther back from the water?

Take a look at the site Master Plan by the architectural firm. I am not so sure that E-line will lose much of it's southeastern exposures due to construction of Tower 3... Unless of course your view in any of the south to southeastern -lines does not clear 184 Kent (I believe you need to be higher than 8th floor to clear 184 Kent).

http://www.fxfowle.com/projects/residential/northside-piers.php

Wow, I'm at of the loop, I had no idea NSP3 would be that big! I thought another tower similar to the first two.

Would love to have a time machine and see how pricing will be for Tower 3.

WilliamsburgNYC - I'm looking at the B and C lines, which also have a south to southwestern view. Seems to me all views would be obscured from Brooklyn Bridge going North.

Anyone seeking concessions should consult a tax professional as such may have personal income tax consequences. I've seen here that it's a "win - win", not necessarily if you have to pay personal income taxes on the amount. I'm not 100% sure about this, but you may want to find out.