Why are there so many HATERS on this site???

Damn it, Luciato, you are RIGHT!!

Y'know, I'm gonna go buy me an apartment now, no matter what the price is.

I don't want to buy an apartment as an investment - I want to buy a home and live there for a long time. But if for some reason I have to sell - loss of job, opportunity in another city that I couldn't pass up, etc. - I don't want to risk sitting on a 20% loss in one year. Also, I think in Manhattan, almost everybody has the issue of wanting more space than they can afford. So, there's also the "why by a 2 bedroom now if I can afford a three bedroom in two years?"

I think a lot of people are like me. They aren't speculating or buying as an investment, but they don't want to risk taking a huge loss should their life circumstances change and they be forced to sell. Or they want to wait until prices fall more, and they can buy exactly what they want.

Damn, prices need to fall 83% for me to buy exactly what I want.

Cool. Now I can buy a place... and wipe out my 25% equity on day one. Sounds like a good deal to me. Then again, I could keep renting an identical place for a fraction of the cost.

I agree with kspeak on what motivates many buyers. I can also understand what prompted luciato's post. Tough crowd, especially lately.

stfu

This is essentially an anonymous board--unless you chose to disclose your identity. Sadly, anonymous communication can promote a lot of unhealthy things.

Some are prompted to be rude and hateful, while others are prompted to say ridiculous things without having to justify their views intelligently. Yet others ask questions very specific to their current co-op transactions over and over--and over, until we are all blue in our faces, as though we are their personal real-estate advisors.

To me, this is what makes this site interesting, and I can always press the "ignore this person" button if someone goes too far.

Luciato: A call for civility is always in order and welcome.

I do think, though, that you're taking sides - even if you don't mean to - by pointing to the non-speculative reasons for buying. Everyone agrees that those reasons exist. The contentious issue is the extent to which those factors should/can/might offset the risk of capital loss.

"I do think, though, that you're taking sides - even if you don't mean to - by pointing to the non-speculative reasons for buying"

I'm not sure I understand, whats this about sides, he's stating a fact, a fact that you yourself say that everyone agrees on, he's telling the folks whose only purpose on this board is to scare and depress people (oops sorry educate), to tone it down. Does civility require one to have no opinion whatsoever?

"Everyone agrees that those reasons exist."

I'm not sure that's so. Or at least there's a bunch of people on the board that weigh non-monetary factors so lightly that they simply aren't meaningful in any buying decision. Which is fine, to each their own, but some of them don't see it that way.

ccdevi: I was referring to the embedded implication that most of the haters are bears. That might be true at the moment, but over time I think bulls and bears have shown themselves to be capable of equal viciousness.

To my eye, Luciato's opening post reads less as "Everyone should be civil" and more as "The bears should be civil, and by the way they're wrong." Singling out one side for incivility while inserting a subtle plug for the other side of the debate (perhaps inadvertantly) just seems likely to incite further abuse.

luciato, you are correct but for millions of Americans the dream of home ownership has turned into a nightmare. The answer is always the same when assets are purchased near the top of a market and excessive leverage is employed. If one can easily afford RE without a care of what happens to the economy, by all means "RELAX" & enjoy the virtues of home ownership.

There were a lot of folks that 'hated" Manhattan RE in the 90s as they saw the values of their largest asset decline in value substantially over a period of years while maintenance costs increased. The lack of liquidity of the RE made it very difficult for them to move if necessary which added to the frustration. If history were to repeat itself in the coming years (not a pipe dream as the financial parallels of the periods have their similarities), I suspect that even the current tone might just turn slightly more to the south.

"over time I think bulls and bears have shown themselves to be capable of equal viciousness"

we can agree to disagree on that

"the bears should be civil, and by the way they're wrong"

to the extent you mean wrong about where the market is going, I don't see that at all, to the extent you mean wrong for ignoring that many people give heavy weight to non-monetary factors in buying real estate, well yes, that was the point and of course I think he's right.

People have an irrational belief that they can affect the market by how they post here. One prominent bear said it explicitly - that price changes at the margin, and so a few crazies on streeteasy can be that margin. Riiight. Petrfitz must be a broker with an equal but opposite irrational belief that his posts can affect the market in a positive direction. No other explanation makes sense.

They think they can change the water level of a lake, one angry bucketful at a time.

ccdevi: Perhaps you have missed the many posts deriding renters in general as jealous, infantile losers, and stabilized tenants in particular as pampered, lying parasites.

On your second point, I would just say that if somebody wants to start a Kumbaya-can't-we-all-just-get-along-thread, it's usually more effective to set aside questions like which side has the stronger case or bears responsibility for most of the mud-slinging.

please note that Tech_Guy attacked me without provocation. He is a troll. He knows nothign about real estate or business. He spends his entire day thinking about me and attacking me.

tech_guy: The statement that RE prices are set at the margin was a reference to distressed sellers and other exceptional transaction circumstances, not to Internet rants from the lunatic fringe.

yes, this site does have an element that is definitely a tough crowd. (discourse not all that civil)

for those who were on here about 18 months ago, there were a few vocal bears, and the bulls were just merciless in their attacks. the bears are definitely in ascendancy now, and i think they're happy to rub the bulls' faces in it.

By the way, I think it's more accurate to say that valuations are TESTED at the margins, not necessarily set there. Just because a stressed seller dumps his property, that doesn't mean others have to follow suit. Good appraisers (and brokers) know how to keep an outlier in perspective.

West81st: It wasn't you that I was quoting. It was one of the many NYC___ names, but I always confuse the various number sequences after. I already confused that once and don't want to make the mistake again, which is why I wasn't specific this time.

petrfitz: You're the only one on this board who thinks attacks on you are without provocation.

Wow, Tech Guy is still running around lying.. I didn't say it, I certainly didn't say it "explicitly".

This guy literally walks around and lies. And, hell, he thinks RE is going up, and even Pete thinks he's a jackass. I tell you, THAT takes word.

One person can't affect the market. The SEVENTY THOUSAND folks on this board were EXACTLY what I noted in that thread, right before noting there are multiple boards. Anybody claiming I said one is not only an idiot but a liar.

Tech Guy just made a stupid, stupid investment and he has to lie about other to make himeself feel better. He's literally starting the same lie over and over again on multiple threads.

If ANYONE thinks he can singlehandedly affect the market, its Tech Schmuck.

Get a life.

> please note that Tech_Guy attacked me without provocation. He is a troll.

When PETE calls you a troll, you know you have issues...

> West81st: It wasn't you that I was quoting. It

Lets simplify... it wasn't ANYONE that you were quoting.... you lied.

"for those who were on here about 18 months ago, there were a few vocal bears, and the bulls were just merciless in their attacks. the bears are definitely in ascendancy now, and i think they're happy to rub the bulls' faces in it."

Absolutely... there is definitely an "I told you so" sentiment on one side after months of beatings, and definitely a HUGE resentment from those who make the mistake of ignoring the original advice.

"But, RE markets are determined at the margins, so I think the "enlightened" are going to have some impact here."

"I think that it fairly accurate, but back to my "margins" comment. You only need a few streeteasy crazies to start the descent down, and once that happens, its a snowball rolling downhill.."

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/5620-the-internets-ability-to-accelerate-price-correction

And honestly, is the *best* you can do to quote petrfitz's comments against me? That should be the nail in the coffin - clearly your argument is lost.

I'm not sure if you couldn't read all the way through because your lips got tired, or if you are just lying again...

from right below in that thread...

you...
> > You actually think you can affect the market here?

me...
> No, please read more carefully.
> I'm talking about the 70,000 folks who ready streeteasy each month. 4 million page views.
> Great if you think I can move the market, but I'm talking about a big chunk of the 70k who are
> getting good data off the site.... or, any of the others like it (propertyshark, etc.).

Any other lies you wanna try?

Come on, you aren't THIS dumb, are you?

> And honestly, is the *best* you can do to quote petrfitz's comments against me?

No, you do an excellent job of making yourself look like an idiot. I don't need to point that out...

> That should be the
> nail in the coffin - clearly your argument is lost.

OK, troll...

tech_guy
1 day ago
ignore this person
report abuse Baited? I instigated this fight! I'm baiting him to further show his stupidity :) Why? Because its fun.

Any questions?

I should quote your backtracking after I pointed out the ridiculousness of what you said? I linked the whole thread for everybody to read in its entirety. They can draw their own conclusions.

keep trolling.... its not going to make your "investment" decisions any better...

Talk about trolling. How many possible times can you bring up my own purchase in a discussion that's completely unrelated?

troll, troll, troll all the way home...

back on to the thread... I think its pretty clear, as I said before...

> Absolutely... there is definitely an "I told you so" sentiment on one side after months of beatings,
> and definitely a HUGE resentment from those who make the mistake of ignoring the original advice.

tech_guy will you PLEASE change the toner on the system printer.

tech_guy = Nick Burns.

Hey West, please see exhibit A.

"Perhaps you have missed the many posts deriding renters in general as jealous, infantile losers, and stabilized tenants in particular as pampered, lying parasites."

No, I didn't.

Hmmm... I think we are giving Luciato a lot more data points to go by...

Kgg "Damn, prices need to fall 83% for me to buy exactly what I want" ROTFL.

> tech_guy will you PLEASE change the toner on the system printer.

LOL. I know its off thread, but sorry, it made me laugh.

I have felt overall, that people posts less to figure out what to do, but to confirm what they already did. Renters trying to confirm that they were smart to not have bought, and buyers to confirm that they made money. When the numbers started dropping, that put the conflicts into overdrive.

I consider it beautiful that I made the bear-regardless-of-facts nyc10022 and bull-regardless-of-facts petrfitz finally show their equivalence here. They are exactly the same type of person, just with opposite agendas. Its a tragedy that reality will prove exactly one of them right, even though neither gives a crap about reality.

I respect those who care about data. Who can consider both the potential positive and the potential negative. Who are here to share data and discuss possibilities, instead of pushing an agenda. That's why I'm always arguing with the lunatic fringe, on both the bull and bear sides, but never the people in the middle.

Yes, troll, everyone who disagrees with you is the same, I get it.

For someone who talks about "data", you should do an excellent job of ignoring it.

BTW, wake up.. you ARE the lunatic fringe...

Yes, tech guy, the "voice of reason" shill.

ROTFL.

The guy admits he picks fights, lies regularly, CLEARLY has an agenda of trying to protect his "investment", and then tries to out others. The guy has used the word "data" more than he's used a digit....

I love it!

You bring up my investment more than I do. The few times I have brought it up, I've readily admit that I took a big risk, and it may very well go down. That I considered that before buying, and (very luckily) have the finances to withstand such a downturn. You seem to care what happens to it more than I do.

Just noting the rationale for your trolling and hypocrisy.

Keep on trollin'....

tech_guy, I agree with you about the extremes from both ends. nyc10022, like several of the "haters" here, has provided some good insight in some threads, though he's got a pretty clear MO. Use the info as best you can, ignore the rhetoric and attitude, and make your own calls. Otherwise you'll find yourself in a ridiculous and overblown discussion about 92nd and Park in the late 60s with a lot of namecalling when you don't agree with him.

oh, bjw, you hall monitor, you, tell me what my MO is, if its so clear....

nyc10022, not sure why you call me a "hall monitor" (I just call things like I see them, without the authoritative tone you seem to want to ascribe to me). It's maybe a bit much to call it your "MO" but your posts are consistently about how the RE market is going to tank in this city. I have no problem with that, but sometimes you casually ignore or brush aside any data or opinions that don't jive with that view. On occasion you resort to some pretty silly rants and vulgarities. Those last few bits aren't adding much to the discussions here - that's just my $0.02.

Original Poster --

Your question is framed incorrectly. It's not the quantity of haters that matters. It's the quality.

This site has most excellent haters, dude!

> nyc10022, not sure why you call me a "hall monitor"

because you have, on multiple occasions, gone after folks for personal behavior (and I'm not talking about folks ruining discussions, that is fair game). To me, it seems as though you are a little too interested in things other than the topic of the boards and facts.

> It's maybe a bit much to call it your "MO"

Agreed... which is why I called you out on it.

> your posts are consistently about how the RE market is going to tank in this city

I'm not hidden my projections, and, they're probably in the center of predictions on this board. Given that "where will prices go" is the majority of discussion on this board, of course many of my posts will be about that.

That being said, you are also incorrect here. You might only see the ones that dwell on prices, but there are a TON of posts I've tried to be helpful on that have nothing to do with pricing - from neighborhoods to specific searches to contract stuff. To say I'm "consistenly" about the content of my posts is not just correct.

You obviously read what you want to read, and thats fine, but I question your anointing yourself quality control of this board.

> Those last few bits aren't adding much to the discussions here - that's just my $0.02.

Nor are the posts where you spend a lot of time telling me my "MO" or who I am or what my others posts are apparently all about. I responded because I was called out. If you don't want those responses, don't be one of those trying to call me out. I get that its your 2c and thats fine, but don't cause things to go off topic, and then wonder why we are off topic.

Respond to the post and the facts, not the poster.

> Your question is framed incorrectly. It's not the quantity of haters that matters. It's the quality.

LOL.

nyc10022, I care very much about the RE topics on this board and "facts" (sly insertion there) - I think others here would tell you as much, and I've been posting here longer than this slew of newcomers that's popped up in the last 6-8 months (present company included). As such, I value the input I've gotten from this board as well as the opportunity to give feedback when I feel I can provide some kind of answer. What you call "being a hall monitor," I call trying to somehow preserve the integrity of this board and wishing the namecalling, neighborhood bashing, and Chicago "discussions" were gone from here. It may not have been completely fair to label all your content as crash projections, and I applaud you for providing honest answers when you can, but a lot of what you post is of that variety, and even if I'm mistaken, there are too many eerie parallels between you and the generally unsavory EddieWilson. If that's really not you, read his posts to understand what I've been really talking about here.

i agree, everytime i post something, i got negative feedbacks and thinking i'm a RE agent or crazy to think about purchasing. very upsetting when i'm only asking for opinion...

bjw, fair enough.... I'm cool if we share some of the heat here. I will back off if you do...

> a lot of what you post is of that variety

Already responded to above. True, but its simply because thats where the threads are...

nyccondo
about 4 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse
i agree, everytime i post something, i got negative feedbacks and thinking i'm a RE agent or crazy to think about purchasing. very upsetting when i'm only asking for opinion...

stevejhx is the best at accusing someone of being an agent or purchasing at the peak when he disagrees with the person ... until he does ignore.

Hatred is like fear

These people are haters on here because they are frustrated with their own lives. Any normal person does not feel the need to spread doom and bad news anonymously on a discussion board. I guess it's better than them acting their frustrations out with violence.

Best to just pass the discussion threads up. They are a waste of time and all misinformed, underachievers on here anyways.

There are all kinds here.

You just can't tell because it seems that every post, no matter how unrelated to the current market, gets hijacked into some rent/buy, down/up, expensive/about-to-tank discussion. Each time, it takes just minutes before the hijacking is followed by see-i-told-you-so, this-proves-you-are-a-moron, blah blah.

"These people are haters on here because they are frustrated with their own lives. Any normal person does not feel the need to spread doom and bad news anonymously on a discussion board. I guess it's better than them acting their frustrations out with violence.

Best to just pass the discussion threads up. They are a waste of time and all misinformed, underachievers on here anyways."

Yes, those with the really cool lives and so much to do are the ones who are defending their apartment purchases and denying that the market is tanking.,

oldbuyers, you are a complete hypocrite.

Thee are putzes on both sides, but the differences is, those denying the market downturn were wrong before, and are now just dishonest.

nyc10022, I love when you post. Can we go out for dinner? Peter Luger's?

Thank you for the offer and kind words... but we will have to keep it virtual. Vitual steak for 2 works for me...