Best Classic Six Buys

i'll buy this one when it hits $1 million
still not much in the uws that is affordable and nice in this category, but prices are dropping fast, oddly faster than in South Harlem new developments (which are likely big time screwed in the long run), so there is hope

Better bldg: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/357039-coop-320-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

What about this one?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/357039-coop-320-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

Very large, nice layout, great location, low price and negotiable. If you are looking for an estate sale, this one looks pretty good.

We actually gave 320 West end some serious thought. The only thing we couldn't get over was the building. There hasn't been a lot of turnover since it went coop in the 60's. As a result, you have a lot of older people that really aren't into putting money into the building. This is evidenced by the run down lobby.

seriously, you guys consider a building with a run down lobby, only 2 true bedroom (+ maid's ), low floor, no outdoor space with a monthly maintenance of $2250 to be a good buy?
the location is good, but this is not a good value -- relative to the peak euphoria maybe, but even 2007 summer we saw better apartments between West End and Riverside Drive in the 80s and 90s for 1.3 to 1.5 million.

I guess it is hard for people to appreciate how ridiculously rapidly prices appreciated over the last few years.
I predict the one cited in this post will not sell for more than 1.3

We've only been in the market for the last 1 1/2, so we do not have the same perspective. I think it is a deal relative to what else is out there. I have no sense for how it is priced relative to where pricing maybe in 6 months. I can tell you that for the right buyer, they would be willing to sell it for 1.3 now. The broker pretty much told me so. The owners ( sons of the woman who lived there ) are well-off and just want to sell the apartment.

They are not pricing it properly to sell. They should just price it at 995k, and watch the bids settle where they will. Classic 6es in PS87/199 in doormen buildings above the 1st floor have not sold for under 1m since 2000.

And the other thing is: this is quite "protected" from school zoning changes. It would be very hard to cut this out of PS87.

Guys, no offense but the purpose of the post was for people to propose the apartments they thought were good values RELATIVE TO OTHERS ON THE MARKET, not to simply restate the opinion that the market is declining. I agree that it is declining, I agree that it is a good idea to wait. But Instead of just mouthing off, like they do in most of these rooms, I actually was hoping for some compare and contrast between actual apartments.

320 is interesting--killer location, and beautiful building although i agree slightly rundown. Somehow, I think the 72nd Street apartment gets more light and air, sort of faces Riverside Park. And all those back windows at 320 must be pretty bleak.

I prefer 320 WE to 322W72. Better layout - I like the side-by-side LR/DR and I absolutely hate walking down that stretch of West 72nd in the winter or right now. We live very close to that stretch of 72nd and it is absolutely freezing. Not to mention that cars ignore that red light and barrel right through to West Side Highway.

320 WE is probably a stiffer board, not a bad thing. And midpoint between Zabar and Fway/Citarella.

sorry for starting the declining thread. wasnt my goal to hit that direction as such -- main point I wanted to get across was that there are still not phenomenal deals on the classic 6's even relative to 2006-7, despite the major enthusiasm on this board for pointing out how the market is declining through examples of properties that were grossly overpriced relative to what they offer and are now in decline.

I have seen brownstones listed in Harlem for instance where the broker/seller clearly overpriced the building relative to the competition, never sold in the last 2 years -- shifted brokers in some cases, and are now apparent deals given their cuts -- yet nothing like that has sold, period in those ares at anything approaching the reduced price in the last year (at least not closed).
On the other hand there are anomalies where foreclosure auctions on shells have gone over 1.1 million
Crazy

UWS and MH are being much more dynamic in both directions -- typically something that is overpriced but goes through a cut close to value or under value typically goes quickly in a bidding war (even through Sep 2008)
So, you are right to ask to compare relative to others on the market

This is even cheaper - http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/315397-coop-310-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

Ah sorry, not a classic 6, my bad.

Joedavis - the other thing I'd say is a lot of the "3 bedrooms" you see for the same price have no more actual space than the classic 6s. A lot of times the owner just cannabalized the dinining room and squeezed in a bedroom. I am not criticizing anybody for doing this - I would venture to say the formal dining room get used not that often and this is coming from somebody who loves to cook/entertain - but I am just making an observation.

I first started tracking prewar apts on UWS mentally in '05 (when I sold). In winter '05 (Jan '05), there were a few classic doorman 6es in PS87 going for 1.5ish (not including ground floor apts).
Classic 7es could be had for just a tad under 3 (north of 79th). A couple of classic 8es sold for low prices due to condition (mid to high 2es), also north of 79th.

I think we're seeing a rollback to early 2005 in terms of asks which will solicit actual bids.

Ah, typo, meant to say winter '06 (Jan '06)

joe: but even 2007 summer we saw better apartments between West End and Riverside Drive in the 80s and 90s for 1.3 to 1.5 million.

I used to live near there. Great apartments, bad school districts. That is why the prices were lower, but we never bought.

I have been looking since the summer of '07 and I don't remember seeing pricing that is as low as what I am seeing now. Offcourse, it is not across the board. While there are definitely some deals emmerging, you still see some folks coming on to the market with peak pricing. I would say the range on the UW for prime location 6's (below 96th ) is now $1.6- $2.5 (estate and non-estate ). For the tougher buildings you can negotiate quite a deal if you are in a strong cash position.

Flying over to the east side, here's a six with very generous rooms, now down to $1,625,000...total estate and needs everything gutted:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/354719-coop-1435-lexington-avenue-carnegie-hill-new-york

I'm thinking that it will sell for around 1.3. Anyone else want to make a guess?

kas242, my husband and I looked at that one too. We are looking in both prime UWS and UES. This is another one we seriously considered. Great layout, open views, working fireplace. The building is so so. The challenge with this one is that the building typically looks for buyers to have in total ( down payment + liquidity ) 100% of the asking price. Given that it is not a fancy building, this significantly limits the buying pool. This will drive the price down. We are in a situation where we could purchase it, but it's hard to resist the temptation of waiting and seeing what the next months will bring. Perhaps a rennovated apartment like this in a great building with easier financial requirements.

FWIW, 1435 Lex is not zoned for PS6.

EAO, totally agree. I'm not willing to get into a total gut right now unless I think the building is spectacular and the price is a major deal. Thanks for the financial info. I never even got that far after I saw its estate condition. Buyers already have enough hassles to deal with. Having to negotiate a persnickety building (and in this case, a very un-fancy building at that) is even less tolerable now. I think you are right to see what spring might bring to the market.

i think 320 west end also shows market movement since apt below sold for 1975000 in dec 06

EAO grazed the key point: it's almost impossible to know which apartments are potential bargains until somebody makes an offer.

The best deal is an apartment you love at a price you're comfortable with. So, I think step 1 is to find an apartment you love, where the asking price is within the same galaxy as the maximum you can afford. Step 2 is to make an offer and see what happens.

That said, I tend to agree with joedavis that the "deals" among current asking prices are deals only in a relative sense. If you're happy to pay 20% less than somebody paid for a similar property in mid-2007, and 30% less than some comparable properties are asking now, then there are bargains available. Personally, I don't find that kind of "bargain" very enticing with so much downside risk still in the price.

These prices are still too high and will come lower. In 2004 -- estate condition classic sixes in prime neighborhoods asked for 1.6 but went for 1.3 - 1.2 with great views. Renovations cost $500K and headache so I cannot imagine that these wont drop to $1 million. Especially given the job and equity market declines....

what about this one?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/364276-coop-755-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

Decent space. Nice size dinning room, and a maid's room that works as a small bedroom.

samnyc: Bit of a head-scratcher there. Decent apartment in a nice building, and two excellent brokers haven't been able to move it. There must be some sort of market at 755, because #2B finally sold last month.

Well, we haven't really done enough research into schools, or costs/headache of renovations, so my nominations will be along the lines of "most space and most usable layout for the money", keeping within decent Manhattan, but probably not what most people consider prime:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/211135-condo-275-west-96th-street-upper-west-side-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/364623-coop-420-east-72nd-street-lenox-hill-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/343419-condo-250-east-65th-street-lenox-hill-new-york

I think three links is max, so one more post coming

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/112058-coop-215-west-91st-street-upper-west-side-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/234504-coop-530-east-72nd-street-lenox-hill-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/286905-coop-10-east-end-avenue-yorkville-new-york

newbuyer, nothing wrong with those apartments....they just aren't really classic sixes.

Why isn't 310 WEA a classic six? That one looks like the best value, but the maid's room really is tight and the light in the leaving room leaves a lot to be desired. All this said for the money it seems like the best of these.

As a veteran of 3 gut renovations, and the parent of young children - I suggest you look into school zoning more closely. You don't want to sink your capital, time & effort into a property only to find that you have to move because the schools aren't good. Ignore this advice of course, if you know you can pay private tuition for 12 years+ and if you have an in at a good private.

310 WEA is not a classic 6 because it doesn't have a windowed dining room - it has a "dining foyer". Not a true 6 room. In many cases, people combine maid's room & kitchen into EIK and then use the dining room as a bedroom. You can't use the dining foyer as a bedroom in this case. Room count matters.

Nyc10023, based on your experience, how much would you expect to spend on a decent rennovation of one of these estate condition classic 6's?

>> As a veteran of 3 gut renovations, and the parent of young children - I suggest you look into school zoning more closely. You don't want to sink your capital, time & effort into a property only to find that you have to move because the schools aren't good

NYC 10023 - this is something we constantly struggle with. We're close to having kids and obviously when looking to buy this is a major consideration. We could afford private school, unless one of our careers gets derailed, and probably would prefer it (not that I think it really matters in elemenatry school, but then you don't have to worry about switching once your kids get to middle school age, depending on which school they go to). I guess part of me says, you pay for it either way. Say you have 2 kids, the cost of private elemntary school is $180k per kid (6 x $30k) or $360k if you have two.
It seems like this is more or less the real estate value difference anyway. And then you don't have to stress about re-zoning, etc.

Thoughts? Do you think the real estate values are this much different? Are you completely happy with public school? What are your thoughts on what to do come middle school?

happyrenter - I understand that classic sixes technically have a maid's room. But if you have a "real" bedroom instead, like in the apartments I listed (for the same or lower prices), isn't that better?

nyc10023 - I completely agree with you on schools. We are sideliners, so there's no urgency. We will absolutely do significant school zone research before we buy.

newbuyer - if you are indifferent to prewar vs. postwar, then yes, those places are great. i just like prewar ... mostly, can't stand low ceilings ...

Although I'm no expert, I always thought "classic" in classic 6 implied prewar....

Newbuyer - If you don't care about prewar vs. postwar, I would buy postwar because you get more bang for your buck. I'm a huge believer in writing everything you DON'T care about that is usually considered desirable down, along with what you do care about. The best value for you has the "don't care abouts" as well (provided you are buying for "yourself" on a long-term basis, not "resale value" per se, though this needs to be considered)

For example - One thing I don't care about is being on a low floor. I sort of prefer it - hate waiting for the elevator and like being closer to the street. I've actually told brokers this because there can be a pretty big difference in price. But I feel strongly about pre-war.

Yes, classic 6 does mean prewar

kspeak, thanks. I did not know that. Apologies for posting irrelevant examples on the thread, then.

Obviously, I prefer high ceilings to low, but it's not a huge deal to me. So I guess chances are we'll end up in a prewar.

The one caveat to what I said is that I'm willing to bet prewar, views, etc. hold value much better in a downturn, for the same reason that established neighborhoods do. When prices are high, people compromise a lot more, when prices are low, people don't need to. I've never seen numbers on this, but I'm willing to bet that if your average prewar apartment falls, say 25%, postwar falls by even more. The flip side of this is that if you BUY during the downturn the amount you can buy a lot more postwar in terms of square feet per dollar than in prewar. I've never seen this data but it would make sense ...

Sure, economically it's probably cheaper to live somewhere not zoned for a good public and pay for tuition if you're just thinking tuition vs. difference in real estate price. However, unless you have an "in" somewhere and know for a fact where your kids will be going to private and/or G&T/H/A, where your kids end up going to school may be a huge schlep from your place.

Think about it this way. Say you buy on West End north of 80th, and also assume that your kids aren't both boys and in at Collegiate or going to Calhoun (there may be some other privates that I'm forgetting) - even the private schools on the Upper West Side are a fair schlep. Unless your 2 kids are twins, you or your caregiver will be taking the younger one along on your school drop-off and pickup. Are you going in a cab? If so, add that to the costs. Once the little one is in preschool, that's 2 separate trips. What if it's undoable with just one parent/caregiver - then you're paying someone else to take your kid. Not to mention if one is sick and one isn't, are you going to take the sick one along, especially on a cold winter day. Of course, you don't worry about this if you have grandparents in town who can help (not the case with a lot of families we know).

Or what if they're going to school on the East Side or downtown or Bronx (Horace Mann/Fieldston/Riverdale)? Or say you get fed up with all of this and buy a car just to take your kids to school, add that to the tab too.

The one big advantage of a good zoned school which no-one ever mentions is that it's usually a quick walk to school. And your kids can go together (imagine scenario of one going to boys' school and the other going to girls' or if the school doesn't have strong sibling policy aka Dalton - oh, I forgot and schools can have different holiday schedules).

Middle school is definitely an issue, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. We'll definitely send out feelers to privates before middle school to see if any of them have spots open up before that. And of course, we'll have all of them test for Stuy/Bx/Hunter but chances of getting in aren't great. Once one kid is in private, we'll have to reassess the real estate situation and see if it's worth leaving a great school zone for a crappy one and just pay the tuition. The problem with buying before having the kids actually get into a specific private school is that you can't minimize your commute.

nyc10023: After that last post, you may not be safe in the PS9 catchment after dark. ;)

Also, a chunk of the UWS north of 80th has a good chance of being rezoned for PS87 anyway.

I was tossing out a hypothetical location, West 81st. I have thought about moving to PS9 and going to the gen ed there (too much to hope that all kids will get into G&T there). Fine, say 100th and West End and assume kid is not going to Bank Street.

Disagree with your assessment that north of 80/81st will get rezoned for PS87. The folks there are mighty pissed that they're getting the kids from 70-72 E of Bway.

I was tossing out a hypothetical location, West 81st. I have thought about moving to PS9 and going to the gen ed there (too much to hope that all kids will get into G&T there). Fine, say 100th and West End and assume kid is not going to Bank Street.

Disagree with your assessment that north of 80/81st will get rezoned for PS87. The folks there are mighty pissed that they're getting the kids from 70-72 E of Bway.

nyc10023 - all good thoughts, thanks. i see what you mean about commuting and the like. plus in a public school most of their friends are going to live nearby which is also nice ...

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/363147-coop-355-riverside-drive-manhattan-valley-new-york

price just reduced