The Caledonia on 17th street

Yes, the sales office is still open. But they're having a hard time selling. Do you want to live in a building that is close to housing projects?

rufus, i really do feel sorry for you

the sales office has been closed for a year...half the bulding is rental, so the rental office is always open

Why is rufus such a hater? his posts are just mean. same points can be said without the abrasiveness. must be a chicago thing. never anything constructive. just negative, nasty quips. what does he think he contributes?

just ignore him...do not respond...he will go away

the building is sold out so i dont think there is a sales office anymore. there is a rental portion of the building as well so there is a rental office.

The building sold out. There are a few resales available which should benefit you. No flip taxes.

This building keeps popping up on the home page of SE, so I went to look. On this thread everyone said it sold out but there are lots of units listed for sale. Does this mean the developer rented out a ton of unsold units and then put them on the market for sale subject to the leases?..I'm confused. Also, in my view, this very peak priced building must have a lot of bitter owners who just bought at the very wrong time at really hyped price...or is there something wonderful about this place I am missing.

I bought in the building-they did sell out but not everyone could close. There are some resale apartments and sponsor sales in the building. Have you gone to the building? You'd see why people want to live there. Hardly believe there are bitter owners when they purchased before the neighborhood became popular.

The building apparently has about 1/3 of the units for sale. One one br is listed at $1868 psf, which strikes me as utterly ludicrous. I don't want to be flip, but this building seems like bubble-tulip-madness in the extreme. Perhaps I am just too old fashioned but I think if the market falls by say 40% as expected in buildings with prices nowhere near this frothy, that this place will see way greater falls. But, honestly, maybe I just do not understand the market mind-set of the ultra-rich who would pay prices like this, and maybe the market forces won't work in the same way. I say that because I think even a year ago it was a nutty price to pay, so maybe I just don't get the mentality.

Other SE people: am I nuts or is this place insanely overpriced?

jimstreeteasy: I don't want to be flip

Pun intended?

Was not intended. LOL

If that is an accurate indication of the price per square foot, jim, seems to me you're pretty well grounded.

Hilde: "Oh, master builder! My beautiful, beautiful castle! Our castle in the air!"

Solness: "Built on a firm foundation!"

Henrik Ibsen, The Master Builder

I've been there. It's nice but not that nice and the projects are right next doors. Apartments are a little to small and cookie cutter for my taste.

what struck me was that it's also a rental and had a housing lottery as well. how can they charge that much for something that other people are getting for so little.

also the on site sales guy is incompetent

lo888 said: "I've been there. It's nice but not that nice and the projects are right next doors. Apartments are a little to small and cookie cutter for my taste."

Geez, I don't doubt what you are saying, but if you feel that way about this place, what would you think the ppsf ought to be?. A bit less than 1865 psf? Am I missing something, or is this place the most wackily overpriced place...well, someone tell me

I think most of us have been telling you that you are right! Btw, I have yet to see ANYTHING worth $1,856 psf.

1/3rd of the building on the market would be around 50+ apartments? Where are you seeing that? I called the sales office and they said they are negotiating off the last amendment-no need to lower prices at this point. $1856psf is crazy but doesn't mean they'll get it.

Sorry I mistead SE where it says "47 active listings"...but if you scroll down 30 are in contract and 17 for sale. So the number is 17. I am sure they wont get 1800 psf but even asking that makes me ask what planet are we on...unless there is something simply so wonderful about this place that it is worth this, but I don't see how that could be , unless it has movie stars in it or something. If it's your average banker dweeb throwing around his bonus,it seems like a colossal waste of money.

This building has a great lobby and awesome staff. Plus Chelsea Market is your 'corner store' and Equinox is your 'building gym.' Many units have crazy river views. Not a broker & I don't work for Related. Just a happy owner. The projects next door are a non-issue--they are quiet with lots of elderly/disabled people in them.

If for the sake of argument a decent building would go for say 1000psf ,how could you possibly justify a premium of say 70% over that because of the "great lobby", or "aweome staff", or tne name brand of the gym, or even more flimsy, proximity to any store (there are good stores of some sort just about everywhere in good areas of Manhattan). It all seems like fluff, utterly trivial, and not sufficient reasons to pay such huge premiums. If the market softens as it seems to I really don't see how this kind of pricing will not be hammered.

Now, to be frank, I have a bias in that I personally do not put much value on "cachet" buildings, and I know some do, but I think when the music stops, the fluffy reasons you cite, and cachet , will be seen by many market participants as meaningless symptoms of the bubble, and of little lasting value.

(to be clear,in my view even 1000psf is excessive in general)

Anyone who was hammering 407PAS about his "overpriced" apartment have any thoughts on this gem?

1800 psf is insane. That is not the avg price for the building. Paid MUCH below that.

Jimstreeteasy, say what you will about stores, but river views are not trivial. Especially when combined with good location.

this is beyond the realm of reality, so not even worth commenting on.

I agree river views have value (much more so than nice lobby, gym, stores) because can't be replicated elsewhere, obviously. It's a question of degree -- the river views will make it more valuable than one without (although countervailing factor for some is further distance to subway, I suppose), but the fundamental problem in this building is that the prices scream BUBBLE.

If an owner inthis building could exit at no loss by selling now (doubtful), it would be a good capital preservation move, many would say. Aren't you worried that this buidling's peak prices are set to fall way way down?

doesn't that location kind of suck for transportation?

this is not even good residential location - right next to the projects, and dirty. I see police cars on that block everytime i drive throught there. Only good for people who go clubbing every night.

iamlooking : When you say not worth commenting on because beyong realm of reality, that is EXACTLY how I feel when I see threads on here about units that went from 10MM to 8.5MM etc., because it is a whole other universe. But I disagree about this building because this building 1) has lots of units, so is relevant to the market 2) has lots of units in the million price area so lots of "ordinary" people have bought there.

Jimstreeteasy, I've thought about selling, but I can't replicate the views, finish, & location for a materially lower price (even in this market). I've kicked the tires at some open houses, but just left me underwhelmed. So I'll just stay put and wait for the up-cycle in 2011 or so. I reiterate that people who bought this building pre-construction (which is 90% of building) paid no where near $1800/ft.

If you guys making negative comments are correct...then...given these prices...this place is going to double-burst as things unravel...and the more buildings going way down in value, the further the ripple effect on all other buildings as people get scared. Maybe I'm wrong but my thesis is this: large unit, very bubble priced buildings will impact the whole market if they start crashing in price, so the more reasonably bubble-priced will also fall further.

Jim,
Agree with most of what you say. But i would not consider people who are buying at 1500-1800 psqft to be "ordinary" people. They are either trust fund babies who have too much money to throw, or those who are buying here for "snob" appeal. These people are certainly not looking for value.

aimlooking: Try banker-hedge fund types who thought they would be pulling in mega-bonuses forever and ever, and not-so-wealthy people who thought the cachet was cool and that it would be a good investment. But whoever they are...there are a lot of them....and they are relevant to the real world where I want to buy.

downtownsnob: There do seem to be of pending sales in contract at easily 1500-1600...but, whatever, prices are very, very high in my view, and I think will easily and soon fall to 1000 psf (JUST A GUESS), and lower if things continue to unravel. [i shouldn't have to say this, but thanks not taking my comments personally, which is too frequently the case with people on this site]

downtown; I meant to say, you are not taking comments on the building personally, which is good, and should always be the case on SE,but it isn't.

Jimstreeteasy, Yeah its important not to be emotional about these things; rational people need a forum to discuss real estate. No reason to turn this website into Curbed.com!

I live in the building and the service is great, bathrooms spotless and great location...

Seb52 what did you pay psf? Do you think the positive attributes of the building justify such a premium over most buildings?...Just wondering the mindset.

Seb52: "the bathrooms are spotless" Huh? It's a residential condo, not a gas station, right?

thks Kyle, very constructive, its manhattan and sometiomes it looks like u live in a favela for $4000 a month....
was about $1500 sqft...got nothing to complain about except theres no heaters in the bathrooms and A/C is loud

FYI: At my closing this week, attorney told me that a client of his is finding it impossible to get financing for his contract to buy in this building and he's about to lose a $600,000 deposit on apt there. Apparently the banks are reluctant to finance this building and it may fail. Interesting.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if you need bank financing you shouldn't be buying a 6mm apartment. Also, in any case, this guy would lose more by closing, depending of course on what that deposit represents as a percent of purchase price.

The building is over 80% closed and 90% sold-how is that failing?

who said it was a $6mm apartment?

I got garbled. I was trying to guess what the purchase price is if the mentioned buyer put up 600k,and so if it was 10% then the apartment would cost 6mm. What is the typical deposit?

It doesn't appear to be failing,but geez, it appears to represent ultra-bubble pricing, and very unlikely to ever re-sell anytime soon at what these people paid to get in .

20%

ok...i rephrase..if you have any issue in getting finance for a 3m apartment...you shouldnt be buying one that expensive...(ok..maybe..the guy has a zillion dollars in illiquid private equity gains..or he is locked into his hedge fund or something)

is it 80% closed on units or only units that are currently on the market. does this include the rentals in the building and the subsidized housing units as well?

nycjunior - I know we dont have any problems lending in this building (closed several and one not too long ago) nor any other Related building. Perhaps its not necessarily the building but the borrower. You can have that attorney reach out to me if youd like. sunny_hong@countrywide.com

Shong: Just to understand the lender mentality, I'd like to ask how you can justify lending in this building, at very peak pricing, in such a softening market. It seems like a prescription for trouble in the not to distant future.

jimstreeteasy- if youre talking about peak pricing in a softening market then youre talking about practically every new development out there. Based on the building being sold out and majority of the units closed, we have approved the building for financing. As far as value, Im not saying the appraisal values will come in nor are we giving 90% financing. But for the right borrower that has the ability to pay their mortgage, we will lend to. I understand it can be a prescription for trouble in the future but it would be bigger trouble if the banks wont lend to capable borrowers who are in contract without any contingencies. Just my thoughts.

Hey, like Chuck Prince, former CEO of Citigroup said...

"But as long as the music is playing, you've got to get up and dance."

Tough to argue with...

Shong, thanks for a candid answer. I worked in a big bank for many years and I think policies are not always logical, but are sometimes political.

To me the reasonable, sensible thing for a bank to do in Manhattan is say 1) you have massive other assets or you don't get a loan , or 2) you put up at least say 40% or 50%. THAT IS WHAT ANY SANE INDIVIDUAL INVESTOR PROVIDING FINANCING AT THIS POINT WOULD SAY. But banks are bureaucracies, and have policies dictated from above.

If the bears about NYC real estate on this website and in general are even HALF RIGHT, then what you might today call 80% financing at Caledonia will shortly actually be 100% financing, or ...worse.

It mystifies me that any sane bank would get near the ultra-bubble Caledonia, and similar wacky, bubble-priced developments.

Even if you say I am being alarmist, saying the sky is falling, is it really a rationale move for a bank (which has downside but NO UPSIDE) to take anything but an ultraconservative financing stance in a market like this?

I think it is amazing that people are trying to flip the Caledonia at a profit.

I haven't yet visited but I was wondering if those noise issues from the club nearby are still present?