Loft Prices in Downtown excluding Battery Park City, Chinatown, and Financial District

What do you define as downtown? South of what street?

so, south street seaport is ok? central village? those will be two of the cheaper spots.

> My broker is telling me that this is about as low as it gets, it's about pre-2006 prices, I am
> cautiously doubting that.

Check the comps thread. Many apartments below 2005 prices. If your broker thinks this is it, consider a new broker.

Don't fall for the typical broker "now is a good time to buy, prices won't go lower" routine. I too have been looking at downtown lofts, prices are dropping, and I am starting to see some asking prices below $1,000 psf, though not desirable lofts (2nd floor on Broadway etc).

There is no magic support at $1,000 psf, I think lofts are starting to break that level and will continue to do so. Many loft buyers were Wall Streeters, they ain't buying nothing for a while. $800-900 seems probable this year.

What condition do you need? How many baths?
Here's a true loft - not a "loft like" apartment with lots of amenities - at about $850/sf (or less, if you include the basement space in your calculations).

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/355133-coop-70-thomas-street-tribeca-new-york

I'm with modern!

Have you EVER heard a broker say, let's wait nine months for things to bottom out? It's always "about as low as it can get" in a bear market. But this one has just started!

If you disagree...well...I've got a bridge in that area that I think would be just perfect for you.

Right on.

One week it was "real estate is only going up... buy now".
The next week it was "ok, real estate is down, but it will only go up from here... buy now".

Short answer is... brokers will ALWAYS tell you now is the time to buy, no matter what the scenario. Now sure how one can take market advice from a group of people who basically denied there would ever be a crash (and suddenly they are experts on calling the bottom).

Make your own decisions on timing, and then use a broker only if you need help finding appropriate targets. If they bug you with "buy now" stuff, find another broker. There are a ton with no work at all now...

Guys, just stop it. If "brokers will ALWAYS tell you now is the time to buy" then what's the point of trying to find another broker? Some of us actually do advise our clients to wait. Some of our clients can't wait. Or they don't want to. Or we find them deals in which it's cheaper to buy then to rent.
I recently took a buyer to the top floor of a building that's currently under construction to walk the floorplan of a unit he intended to purchase. Turns out the parapet wall partially obstructs the amazing river view. Now, my client really wants to buy this place, wants it to be as great as it is in his imagination. But it's not. My advice to him - don't buy it. So he's not buying it.

Hey, we can all buy a vacant, renovated loft building on Crosby (nicer and quieter than most of SoHo), with 4 lofts plus a commercial unit. Down from $22m to 16.9m, devloper must be desperate. $1200 psf I bet we can get it for a lot less. I'll take the penthouse, who wants a unit?

Tadao Ando is the architect, big name!

http://www.prudentialelliman.com/939915

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/164093-multi-43-crosby-street-soho-new-york

On 2nd thought, maybe not, looks kind of narrow.

tina24hour, unfortunately there are a few knuckleheads around these parts with some kind of vendetta against brokers. I've worked with several that have been honest (like yourself) about the market with me, and have not pressured me to "buy now!" at all. I have met some who do that, but I dismiss them pretty quickly. In the end, brokers don't make the decision to buy anyway, so to blame them is pretty silly stuff.

tina,

Unfortunately you and others get tarred with the bad brokers. (you have to admit many are bad, right?).

It is just too long to type "90% of brokers are worthless" so we tend to just say they all are. I personally know a few who are not idiots, but I have met many I would not trust as far as I could throw them, or who are downright uneducated about their chosen field, real estate.

Soooo many are bad, it's true. But the same can be said about driving instructors or personal trainers or house painters. Restaurants. Cat sitters.

Let's assume 90% of brokers are worthless. The reason I love this site is because it helps me understand what you (buyers/sellers/renters) want from the remaining 10% of us.

Oh! Here's one:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/365424-coop-258-broadway-tribeca-new-york

> If "brokers will ALWAYS tell you now is the time to buy" then what's the point of trying to find
> another broker?

Read what I said... find one who focuses on his job, not market timing. A quiet broker is a better broker...

You don't ask your pharmacist to do surgery on you.

> I've worked with several that have been honest (like yourself) about the market with me, and have
> not pressured me to "buy now!" at all.

Worked with 3 recently... for RENTALS. All I had to tell to leave me alone after they wouldn't shut up about buying...

Everyone has their experiences, but there are more than a few who have noted the brokerage industry as one with some huge issues. Personally, I think it is because there is very little required of anyone to become a broker.

Agreed. Few barriers to entry. Many unqualified goofs. Lots of greed.
But I did read what you wrote - I was just responding to the discrepancy between the statement "brokers will ALWAYS tell you now is the time to buy" and the suggestion "If they bug you with 'buy now' stuff, find another broker".

It's not the hate, it's the inconsistency.

Very little is required to become a broker and that is why the failure rate is so high especially among the firms that focus more on the rental side. People enter with high hopes and quickly realize just how difficult it is to make a living on a 100% commission basis. Some companies will let the "social-light" types hang around a little while but if you aren't doing deals it's on to the next dreamer.

I think you will find at most of the big firms that most of the successful brokers do have an education and were previously successful in another career. To be successful at this you will need to rely on referrals and they will only come if you are good at what you do. You can not make money by just showing up and getting your business cards. There are plenty of very qualified brokers/agents out there, and just like getting any good service professional you should do it by referral. I am always surprised to hear so many of these well educated types on SE complain about brokers. If you have been in this city for any length of time are educated and successful at what you do, surely you know someone that can make a good referral.

You wouldn't just pick your financial planner or attorney out of the phone book or an ad in the times?

Back to the posters question: IMHO I would keep tabs on the market and let's see where prices are in 3-6 months-What's the rush?

Another one - check the discussion threads on this building, I don't know it personally:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/26588-condo-25-murray-street-tribeca-new-york

> But I did read what you wrote - I was just responding to the discrepancy between the
> statement "brokers will ALWAYS tell you now is the time to buy" and the suggestion "If they bug you
> with 'buy now' stuff, find another broker".
> It's not the hate, it's the inconsistency.

You're not reading it right... its not inconsistent.

They've all got the shpiel down, just fine one who will keep it to himself. Let him say it once, and then shoot him on the second strike.

Snake oil salesman are 100% commission too, right?

25 Murray? Perhaps you may want to google that address for some info...

I don't know I haven't bought any snake oil recently? :)

> 25 Murray? Perhaps you may want to google that address for some info...

http://www.tribecatrib.com/news/newsmay08/25Murray050810.html

Anyone seeing the irony in having to tell the broker to google the property?

gkh108---Think a lot about windows when you look at lofts. You can always fool around with finishes, but the windows are pretty much a given---unless they are lot line windows and somebody builds in front of them.

nyc 10022 ----- "so, south street seaport is ok? central village? those will be two of the cheaper spots". What do you consider "Central Village"? Why is this cheaper than other downtown neighborhoods?

tina,

I wouldn't put http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/365424-coop-258-broadway-tribeca-new-york in the under $1000 psf club.

Floorplan says 1413sf plus 418 sf second level. But 14' ceilings?? Do the math, with 6" of flooring, you are left with an average of less than 7' ceiling height in 418sf x 2 or 936 sf, almost half. If the lower floor is 7 1/2' that leaves the upper part at 6', great for dwarfs looking for a loft I guess.

I wouldn't count space with less than an 8' ceiling as real space.

hey nyc10022, it's not fair to compare snake oil salesmen to real estate brokers. Brokers just have better PR agents.

Snake Oil Salesmen Were on to Something
Snake oil really is a cure for what ails you, if that happens to be arthritis, heart disease or maybe even depression

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=snake-oil-salesmen-knew-something

Topper, for the record, I have two brokers I work with, 1 in the city and 1 in the hamptons, both telling me to keep waiting. Not that either has a crystal ball, but you have to give it to them for their integrity, and they've locked in a client for life, whether they are right not.

NYC10022, I consider downtown to be anything below the 30's, pretty similar to how this website does it. From the many open houses I have attended, contrary to the broker, many owners are still stuck on 2007 and 2008 prices and unwilling to lower their asking on their own. I am glad many members on this board agree with such sentiment. When you do all see the declines across the nation will finally hit NYC?

Hello, theburkhardtgroup - that's why I said to check the discussion threads. Lots of contradictory information about 25 Murray, a building I admitted I don't know personally. Have you done any business in 25 Murray? I'd be curious to hear more...

Here's a closed sale under $1000/sf:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/319865-coop-36-north-moore-street-tribeca-new-york

We should be able to see Jonathan Miller's detailed 4Q numbers in a day or two, but your broker is not wrong about current pricing.

I just closed on a 2-BR loft condo in SoHo (Wooster) at $1,248/sq.ft. While co-ops are cheaper, not a lot is moving in your target price range.

For that price you are most likely to get something in need of a lot of renovation -- for example, a converted warehouse where the co-op board demands that you soundproof the unit.

If you do want to go in with a markdown bid, have your financing perfectly in place. It is basically a cash market at this point, and most sellers are probably going to look askance at giving you a discount if you need a mortgage, because mortgage financing is still pretty tough to get.

Also, note in the 4Q reports that average days on market went up 18% and "luxury" (roughly $3mm) days on market went up 44%. Two-three months is not an old listing; seven-eight months is an old listing.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Here's a new loft listing under the $1,000psf barrier at $940. Nice renovation, massive living room (57x48) but it is right next to Canal Street. Still, a sign of things to come with prices.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/373266-condo-11-mercer-street-soho-new-york

Another fully renovated loft under $1,000 psf, this one at $952 on Warren (and Chambers).

But what a weird floorplan! Damn thing must be almost 200' long!

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/361706-condo-50-warren-st-tribeca-new-york

Another fully renovated loft under $1k:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/358253-coop-69-wooster-street-soho-new-york

Looks like prices are really starting to crack in this segment.

Must...retrain...myself....from....buying....

Closed renovated loft for $850 per sf in NoHo. I looked at this loft, interesting renovation and layout by fairly famous architect.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/387067-coop-644-broadway-noho-new-york

$850 per sf is not too bad. Flaws were master bedroom on noisy Broadway, entrance also on Broadway, no doorman. Not a recent reno, so everything was a bit beat up but not too shabby.

You can find lofts from $800-3,000 psf right now. It all depends on condition, light, location, amenities, floorplan, condo or coop, maintenance, condition, etc. As a straight number, the $/sf is pretty meaningless, all the more so because some agents exaggerate, some lie outright and some are honest.
At the lower end of the scale, you will find coops on the second floor, unrenovated, with single exposure on a busy street, and the scuzziest brokers. At the higher end, fabulous renovations done by world-famous architects in one-of-a-kind spaces.
No-one can tell you what's going to happen. It seems plausible that prices will continue to decline, especially for challenged places (those second floor unrenovated coop lofts on Broadway or Canal.)

I agree that $/sf is somewhat general but overall it does appear to be declining and it is an indicator of where lofts are trading.

A year ago it was impossible to find renovated lofts for $1,000 psf or less, and most were in the $1500-200 range. There is no doubt that is lower today.

Given their mostly rectangular nature, I think lofts tend to be more accurate in sf than other apts, though of course they are always on the high side too.

This loft on Broadway was not a low floor, was renovated, not a bad layout, so I consider $850 per sf an indicator that prices are hitting new lows in this segment.

True, you also have to consider that big ticket places are getting hit harder so far. So on lofts that are 3,000 sq ft or more, with maintenance up there as well could get someone a better discount off peak prices. Still, the listing you linked is very nice and the price clearly shows a big decrease from 2 years ago.

I personally think it is helpful when posts discuss price psf (based on the assumption that everyone knows to take it with a grain of salt) as a rough indication of how wacky a price may be. .What is the relationship of loft prices to condo or coop apartment (non-loft) prices?..I ask because this thread talks about lofts so specifically.

The 644 Broadway loft has lots of light and is in a super-convenient location; however the maintenance is almost $4,200 per month. Does this seem high?