Do gay couples have trouble with park avenue boards?

Discrimination based on sexual orientation is illegal in the city, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. What we sometimes see downtown is that buildings, like country clubs, seem to have a token gay presence but become resistant to expanding it.

Your best bet is to ask your agent what the board's history is.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Forget it, you will never get approved. Sorry.

I'm optimistic. Hey, this is New York. It's 2009. Obama got 85% of Manhattan votes. I assume most in the building are well educated.

Go for it.

I don't think it's a particularly worrisome building. They allow pied a terres, so they are seemingly a little flexible. It's a 50% down building, so if you have the liquid assets, I bet they'd be happy to have you.

The majority of people who serve on co-op baords tend to be older and more conservative. While a younger person might have no problem with a gay copuple, someone in their 60s or 70s probably will.

I live in a very conservative coop and have not seen discrimination towards gays. The discrimination I have seen is more towards south east asians and people from India for some reason. It's really disgusting that the shareholders have no called the board out on this. It is so obvious.

I don't think you'd have an issue but as suggested, I would ask the broker.

You can report housing discrimination by calling 311 and getting to Housing Preservation and Development, the city agency which takes complaints VERY seriously (and which is currently headed by Shaun Donovan, an Obama cabinet pick).

However, for a potential applicant -- what you really want to do is to get somebody on your side who knows those boards. (I'd volunteer my agency, which is gay-owned and operated, but I don't know how well my Chelsea-based sponsoring broker knows those buildings).

It looks like all the listings are with Elliman, so if you want a different firm to represent you -- it's not clear if you're working with anyone now -- maybe Gumley Haft Kleier? Those Park Avenue co-ops are their sweet spot. Or if you want a larger firm, maybe Brown Harris.

ali r.
---
Alison Rogers
Licensed Salesperson
DG Neary Realty

See if you or your friends know someone who already lives in the building. That usually a best refferal on your behalf.

elena
(broker)

Tangent question: Can a board turn down someone in a wheelchair if the building isn't handicap accessible?

are you kidding? tons of buildings would love gay couples...

lower likelihood of kids, higher likelihood of redecorating...

Doesn't anyone remember the Will and Grace where they accidentally bought a house in the wrong town?

WHat the heck does a tv show have to do with co-op boards?

uptown: My partner and I viewed an apartment at 1001 Fifth. When we arrived the broker told us directly that we would be wasting our time applying even though our finances were well in order. Two men or a single man "of a certain age" would have "no chance" with the board.

I steamed--and steamed--and then came to the realization that I actually did not want to live in such an environment.

I found, interestingly, that certain other buildings on Fifth have grown concerned that their strict, homogeneous populations are actually negatively affecting resale prices. One broker/building resident told me that her building was actually seeking same sex couples and singles as the building population had come to resemble a senior citizen cruise ship.

A good broker (ideally one who lives in the building of interest) can really help.

Why would it come up...I don't remember sexual orientation in the package. Let them think what they want. Good luck and I hope you live in the bldg. you want.

> WHat the heck does a tv show have to do with co-op boards?

Its a Manhattan thing, you wouldn't understand...

Gay people only bring value to a any building... Just go for it...

Move downtown! We have plenty of gay couples who are part of my coop building.

Meth fueled bareback parties, assless chaps, house music at all hours, tiny yip yip dogs,snippy high pitched lovers quarrels, and an endless parade of strange wide eyed men being buzzed into your lobby.

With that said, what's not to love about a gay neighbor?

Julia, your comment is naive. Alpine, yours are overly simple. Set aside the outright homophobia prejudice a moment and think about what boards look for: #1-finances. If you don't pass #1, the rest is irrelevant. Because it is illegal for gay couples to marry in NY and 48 other states (although NY would recognize a gay marriage solemnified in CT or MA), most gay couples simply haven't married. Some feel there is something undignified and insulting in chasing one's civil rights around the country. Many feel when NY permits it, they will marry here. But this is why it is relevant: in legal terms and in the eyes of the board, the couple are two individuals and not a single entity or partnership. They are not a couple that has the legal economic interdependence a board wants or the benefit of at least saying "we're serious enough to have gotten married." You see, boards worry that a boyfriend/girlfriend or same sex couple may break up because their relationships appear less "stable" than a married couple (I'm not arguing the merits of the position here). If they break up, can each of them individually meet the financial obligation of the apartment?

So, what some boards may want is to see each of the applying parties to independently meet the financial obligations of the building. Don't tell me about Domestic Partnership. Legally it is virtually insignificant and does little other than to underscore that a gay couple is not like the other couples in terms of standing in the eyes of the law or as a matter of public policy. As a result, the application process can involve more insidious discrimination than overt forms of homophobia. For example, a gay couple may get asked to include individual references in the board package ( like all unmarried people applying for entry the agent may say). The fact that the gay couple has no choice in terms of their legal status (without leaving the state to marry elsewhere), thus does impact even boards that appear on the surface not to overtly discriminate.

While on the subject, not having the right to marry adds a whole layer of headaches to other aspects of the process, too, like getting a mortgage.

Long enough. I just went through all this and it only drove me to tears twice, so I guess that isn't bad. When it came to the request for separate references from the seller's agent, I told my agent to convey that we'd be submitting references as a couple and if that was inadequate we were going to seek ways to void the contract and kill everyone involved with litigation and bad press. The seller's agent quickly responded the idea had been hers alone--not the board's--and that couple's references would be fine. What happened? The board took 8 minutes during our interview and welcomed us to what turns out to be a very gay-friendly building. I have no idea what the lesson in all this was except living as a second class couple in the state I've lived my entire life is a pretty horrible feeling.

Helpful comment, Patrick_Bateman. Hopefully you will stop the self-loathing and come out of the closet some day.

Julia - of course it shouldn't come up, but board approval is not a sterile review of an applicant package. There are interviews and meetings, and even if the board makes assumptions, it can (legally or not) and sometime does act on assumptions, even if they aren't explicitly voiced.

Kyle - That brings tears to my eyes too. As a New Yorker, I am disgusted that we don't recognize gay marriage. I am glad you found a home where you are welcome but sorry that its not a given.

Can't decide whether to introduce Patrick_Bateman to rufus or Joe the Plumber. It's close.

Gay people are excellent in interior design and home renovations. The next time I buy RE, I hope the seller is gay. I bought from a straight seller in 2005, and the design is just horrible. Everything is white.

uptowngay, prejudice often makes people do things that are not in their best interests. Prejudice is irrational. My parents were screeners in the 60's in NYC. When a Black family was denied housing, they would apply. If my parents were accepted they would call the FHA/ACLU. Maybe you need something like that.

Maybe it was the 70's...

If you went to Yale and happen to be gay, the board will almost certainly cut you some slack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NyzQwwO4Os

If I was on a co-op board, I would approve a gay couple, but only if they draw up decent plans to redesign the lobby.

alpine,

your charming attitude probably explains why you are a twenty something living in bergen county.

I live in Manhattan renter.

then why are you always talking about your place in bergen county?

uptowngay, if I were married I would do the screening job. They'll take Bernie Madoff but not you?

in today's environment i'm sure boards are looking for financials more than life style. If the people are gay the board wouldn't care if their financials are good. And, if they do care the heck with them.

i thought alpine was pretty funny.

since when are gays good at decorating?

Julia, I don't think you read/understood my post. For some boards, "good financials" for gay couples means twice the financials of a married couple because EACH must qualify independently. They may not "care" about the gay part in a technical sense, but the practical effect of looking for 2x financial eligibility because the couple isn't married is that the couple is being discriminated against.

kylewest -- Why is there a requirement for double the financials? They are co mortgagees or co owners - jointly and severly liable.

Kylewest, I am so sorry about what you've gone through. That we just went through the whole Prop 8 mess in California shows you that as a nation we have a long way to go.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Well, put yourself in the boards place...

Marriage is fully codified in law including rights and responsibilities when it comes to property.

A gay partnership...well that is much less defined and not even recognized at the Federal level. Given that even liberal states like California are banning gay marriage, there's little hope this will be changing anytime soon...in fact, the same thing could happen here.

jgr..not really relevant. you're bringing up a social issue that is as fraught as the Israel-Palestine conflict. in our coop we have a lot of unmarried straight couples who buy . in both situation - the gay couple and the unmarried straight couple - we insist on a plan for who gets the apt. in the event of a death, separation, and so on to avoid a nasty probate scenario. we also ask, within the bounds of privacy, for both financials and how the couple intends to carry the place. it's never been as issue. it's nyc...all kinds of situations pass through your boards meetings last year we had identical twins wanting to buy together. whatever. if the financials work..

I agree with jgr. Who wants a couple that agrees to be jointly and severely liable when they can instead deal with divorce courts. Even then, what's the probability of divorce? 50%? That's nothing! Obviously the security of marriage that keeps the other 50% from divorcing is well worth a tiny little bit of discrimination. And I do mean tiny - I mean, its New York City - its not like there are a ton of happy, stable gay people everywhere you look.

(Public service announcement for the sarcasm-impaired: If you respond as if the previous paragraph was serious, I will ridicule you to no end)

kylewest...i did misread what you said..I didn't think about the double financials.

So, one more helpful point comes out of this discussion: wear wedding rings.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

wear wedding rings? and lie about who you are??? forget it, be who you are and be proud of it, battle discrimination, dont hide. I cant believe that it is even a discussion, like "how do i get around being mexican to get into this place?" seriously.

I think Ali's comment was meant as "wear wedding rings to show the depth of your commitment to each other and to the realtionship" not to try to hide your orientation. I don't know anything about Park Avenue boards (except they would never let me in and I'm straight) but when I was on my co-op board gay couples co-purchased and were evaluated exactly as straights. I'd bet the same situation is the norm in my current building. Laws may be discriminatory but it does not make it morally right or frankly financially sound (alienating or even rejecting qualifed potential buyers) to use them as an excuse to treat people differently on the basis of sexual orientation.

I agree..wearing wedding rings show commitment more than anything. Who can know what the future is regarding married couples...they could buy in the bldg. and divorce one year later. I hope for the buyer that the board recognizes that marriage isn't a permanent state whether gay or not.

regardless, I think that's irrelevant. The $$$ is what should be considered, an overall profile of someone able to purchase the property and someone who doesn't appear to have a criminal record, the commitment is a personal thing and is irrelevant. Why have to prove yourself in that context? awful! single, gay, straight, fat, whatever, if you qualify to buy you can buy, that's it.

One more tale: to hedge our bets, my b/f and I (who are engaged and plan to have a ceremony in about a year and marry legally when/if NY legalizes marriage) went to City Hall to get domestic partnership certificate before board interview to at least say we've done what we can legally in NY to demonstrate our commitment. I knew it would be illegal for the Board to ask about that, but I figured let's just do it anyway. I regret it. It was pretty humiliating and made me feel awful for weeks. Why?...

To become dom. partners, you go to the Marriage Bureau at the municipal building downtown. You wait in line with all the people who are allowed to get married and are applying for licenses. When the gay couples get to the front of the line, they are told to go to the left and the straight people get to go to the right. The straight couples have to show multiple forms of ID and whatever else. Gay couples can basically show a Costco card and the certificate is issued. It is more or less worthless legally unless one of you end up in a city hospital after an accident and the other wants to visit. Great. It was like being told to get in the back of the bus. Instead of being something nice, I walked out of there and was so mad I didn't cry but tears just sort of fell out of my eyes as we walked to the subway. In the 24 years since I came out, I never felt so acutely "less than."

Other groups have sufferred far worse and I don't mean to equate my experience in any way with those evils. But to personally experience "seperate and unequal" was more painful than I expected and gave me a deeper understanding of discrimination than I had before. I would never willingly subject myself to that kind of treatment again and I shouldn't have done it then. Nothing was worth that. Of course, the Board in my new building couldn't have seemed to care less, as I said above, and was nothing but welcoming and kind. The uncertaintly of how one's status will be viewed by others is a very bad feeling though. The situation defies easy answers and I have no advice for others except to share my experience for whatever it is worth.

eah's Question: "discrimination I have seen is more towards south east asians and people from India for some reason"

Answer: THE SMELL OF CURRY IS STRONG, AND TO WASPS, DISGUSTING. PERIOD.

Thanks qwerty for really adding to the discussion.

OP, best of luck, I hope it works out!

We need more diversity on the UES...

kyle as a lifelong New Yorker I am embarassed by your experience and can only hope (and vote) that by the time you and your b/f choose to commemorate your commitment, that commitment will be wholly, equally legal to any other marraige in New York State.

kyle: Wow... all this time I thought domestic partnership laws were a good first step towards true equality. Now I'm starting to doubt that... Thanks for sharing a very eye-opening story.

"Other groups have sufferred far worse"

Inequality is no less inequal just because others suffer worse. And all inequality, at all levels of severity, should be fought and opposed.

kylewest, indeed I too am embarassed by your experience. But thanks for opening some of our eyes to it - living in this city, we sometimes assume to be way ahead of the game when it comes to discrimination.

Why don't you just avoid the hassle and buy a condo? In a condo, it does not matter if you are staright or a polygamist gay household with 10 husbands. (hmm, a gay polygamist married to 10 other men, I wonder if that exists...)

he probably wants to buy a coop for the same reasons anyone else wants to buy a coop, alpine.

Well, co-ops are not for everyone.

Kylewest, I am sorry that you were made to feel this way... One day in the near future Gay people will have equality... You and countless others are paving the way for younger generations... The only thing to do is to keep pusing forward...
Thik about this...
If Gays cant get married, then straight people cant get divorced.... seems fair

Park Avenue cooperatives are the toughest in Manhattan. Fifth Avenue, believe it or not, tends to be a little more lenient, not much, but just a little. I don't think that you have any chance in Hell of passing the board. They don't even like Europeans who are dressed too fashionably. If you don't look like a conservative prude, forget it.

Yeah, Alpine. And I suppose you might have told Rosa Parks she should have just taken taxis. It's that kind of unthoughtful consideration of the issues that is so frustrating. I'm sure you consider yourself a fair-minded person, but the post belies prejudice. When a member of the entitled majority (if that is what you are) ignores the underlying inequity and instead tells a person being discriminated against to just change his/her own behavior to adapt to the inequity, the insidious nature of prejudice is revealed. You've just amply demonstrated what I mean.

OP, don't listen to smillen.

Unfortunately people still have their prejudices, but times are changing, and if anything, history has shown that things can and do change.

I say go for it and take it as far as you can. And after all is said and done, let us know how it pans out.

Kyle, I'm sorry for your experience & thank you for sharing it. I have friends who have been fighting for gay rights & marriage equality for decades & I'm only now starting to "get" it. Thanx for sharing.

So far, the best advice you've gotten is that you shouldn't have extra problems because you're a gay couple if you fit in with the building generally, and that, as with most buildings and unmarried couples (sorry about that, btw), each of you ought to be able to handle the carry. Don't be apologetic or self-conscious about anything. If you are domestically partnered, civil unioned, or married elsewhere, you might want to let them know that.

And if you have any doubt that people, even in NY, even in the 21st century, have stupid, silly or vicious prejudices, just read through this thread. As the kids say these days, I threw up in my mouth a little. Good luck.

Patrick, your definition is correct. The reason people of color do this is because their families are generally deeply rooted in religion (look at 90% of blacks voting yes to prop 8) and they are afraid of being shunned by their family and community.

Not to say gays of non color do not face this fear, but the black community appears to, as a whole, not accept homosexuality - compared to other groups where you'll find small pockets who do.

mercuricoxide,

why are we even talking about this? but in any case, to say that people 'deeply rooted in religion' are anti-gay is not true. it depends on the religion: episcopalians, presbyterians, reform and conservative jews, unitarians, congregationalists, and plenty more groups are very pro gay. it is also entirely false to state that 90% of blacks in california voted for proposition 8. i believe the correct statistic was 70%.

kylewest...reading your postings made me feel the pain you and others must go through. I never really thought about whether gay people can marry...I always felt does it really matter but your postings are very moving and thank you for making me realize how important marriage is when you cannot get married.

Sorry, I was trying to answer a question by someone, but it appears their post was deleted.

When I said "deeply rooted in religion" i didn't mean the many groups of religion, but moreso strictly believing in certain quotes from the bible, like man not lying with man.

an update on the fight against prop 8:

http://www.lambdalegal.org/publications/articles/proposition-8-challenged.html

ali r.
{downtown broker}

uptowngal...Do you live in a Park Avenue coop? Are you on the board? When was the last time your board allowed a gay couple into the building? I'm completely against discrimination of any sort, but I speak from experience not for Hell of it. It's disgusting, but it's a fact of life. Most gay couples opt for a condo because they don't want to divulge their relationship to a snobby coop board. The coop boards don't even want heterosexual couples who are not married moving into their building. Any couple who is not yet married knows to tell the board that their engaged and planning on marrying. Uptowngirl, you don't what you're talking about.

Sorry, made a grammatical error - "they're" engaged.

"and an endless parade of strange wide eyed men being buzzed into your lobby."

omg too funny.. i know my doormen talk about me behind their backs, but i'm not the worst in my building (fingers crossed).