2280 Fred Douglass Boulevard

And to state the obvious, I wouldnt be looking to put anything down anytime in the near future. Probably closer to the end of 2009 when I can get a better feel for how things are coming along.

I was in the sales office today. I was given an expected completion date of May 2010, not early 2010. I think they must, and ultimately will, rethink the asking prices, which IMO are absurd in this economy, particularly in light of the fact that this building will contain a number of below-market rate units. If I were you smterr, I would wait until the building is finished, which is the advice I've been getting about developments that are much farther along than this one, in far more attractive locations.

If there is any chance you meet the income requirements, enter the lottery.

wow, the psf is high for the neighborhood compared to whats happening in the market. they're going to be chasing the market down big time. I feel for the people who locked up the first three, hopefully they didn't put much deposit down and have a most favored nation clause, or at least have some out. Guess they didn't see the disaster that happened at 129th and lenox, fka the lenox grand. What i want to know is how does this project even get completed? one would assume there are milestones that must be reached to draw on the construction loan....the only thing that MIGHT be halfway appealing are the lottery apts.

BB, I think there is a very good chance that it won't get completed, especially if they are on a build-as-they-buy construction budget.

Their timing couldn't have been worse. This one won't be completed for years, if at all. The SoHa is still struggling to fill their overpriced units. If any of these projects are serious, they need to completely rethink their pricing.

I am looking at the same area. Boom Boom, what have happened to 129 &Lnx?
In general, it looks like the market it's paralyzed, other than the apts that were bought before construction. There is practically no sales in the last couple of months. Smterr, do you see any changes in the hood in the last months? Are the stores closing or anything? I am out of the country and can´t picture what´s happening there.

129th and Lex is a MUCH worse area. FDB btw 125th and 110th is already much nicer than the rest Harlem. However, I do agree that 2280 is overpriced relative to other FDB buildings that have not even sold out yet - I am thinking SohA 118 and the Fitzgerald, plus others that will be completed before 2280 opens nearby (I would add windows 123 to the list.) They need to cut prices as least 10% to get this moving.

how does one enter the lottery system? i was told today that the projected date of move in would be March 2010.

I walked past this today, looks like they started building at last.

Far to expensive. The developers are unrealistic.

Much better deals on FDB with many new projects coming online. Savannah should be interesting, it looks like its almost finished but no sign of anything coming to the market yet.

The Lore has finally dropped its prices, the lower floor 2 beds are nice but the 1 beds still need to drop 15-20%.

Also the Gateway has nice 2 beds starting 530k but I hear some owners had issues. 1 bed at 395k.

I own on FDB and intend to buy again on FDB this year.

wanderer -- curious as to what is happening in Harlem -- Windows on 123 finished a while back but no advertising still. Several of the FDB projects also look like they should be ready but no ads.
rentals at Avalon are being cut in price.
Vacant land is being sold at markdowns of 50% or more below 2 years ago.
May be some great deals coming, or some gut wrenching scenarios
The blogs don't paint a pretty picture of the area with respect to drugs and crime.
I am still interested in the area at the right price, and will appreciate your views
http://manhattankids.blogspot.com/search/label/crime
http://zincplatepressblog.wordpress.com/

ALso, re 2280 FDB you may have seen that their construction collapsed on to Pizzeria 123 -- wow

http://harlemhybrid.blogspot.com/

Joe, thanks for the links I have just read them.

Not good news about the heroin folk on 116th, I have not seen anything like this and like to walk up to 116th & FDB. The fact that it has been picked up and reported means the local community gives a damn. It will get fixed.

West Harlem still has a way to go but I have never felt intimidated walking around FDB 110th -125 at any hour. Neither does my pregnant girlfreind - we are both white.

East harlem is a different matter though.

I came across these a while back, pictures of harlem in the 80's and the same view taken today
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=149448

It all comes down to whether one is comfortable or not. Someone posted the crime stats a while back and this was one of the safest areas in the city.

Hi Joedavis,

Long time, no chat. Crime in Hamilton Heights continues to decrease as evidenced in the offical record.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs030pct.pdf

I know when I moved here 3 years ago my block was one of the worst with both drugs and crime- and I have seen things tame considerably. I have also seen retail options continue to improve (although still far from great) despite the economy.

I read Manhattankids blog as well, but you have to take it with a grain of salt. I understand where the writer is coming from, wanting not just a safer community, but also wanting his/her blog read and well publicized. Somewhere the writer of Manhattankids admitted that readship only started taking off when when writing these very sensational type of stories. For instance, in an article about the sheer number of Methodone clinics in Harlem- some of those referenced are not located in Harlem, others may or may not qualify as seperate facilities- with multiple instances of counting clinics seperate from each other that are located in the same building (I think a couple were even listed as the same floor if I recall correctly). So like I said, you have to take it with a grain of salt- but I do appreciate many of the articles originating from the site.

I continue to search for an apartment for my friend since I read the real estate sites as a hobby. We haven't had any luck, and most sellers are still totally unrealistic, but prices are starting to come down. My friend is searching for a pre-war HDFC apartment- one that was at one originally constructed as a luxury building. There are quite a few out there- but sellers are frequently ignoring the fact that income restrictions don't make it to the equation. Realistically if a building has an income restriction of 65k or so- is it realistic to offer an apartment for 400k or 500k, I say no. I understand free-market value of these units would be well above 500k even in today's market (I am talking about 3-4 bedrooms 2 baths)- but these are not free-market apartments. Perhaps in the insanity that occurred in recent years logic didn't play into the equation, but I suspect this will all start to realign in the nearer term future.

Check out the resale at 2002 Fifth Avenue...good layout...less expensive...great views of the park...established neighborhood...maintenance a bit high but a friend was told that it's negotiable with the seller. And building had good financials...

HAHAHAHAHAHAH ... $800-$900/sf to live THERE?! Might as well invest pay a million bucks to live in Somalia. Seriously, why the fuck do you need to ask this question NOW? You can live in Midtown for $700/sf:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/326671-condo-408-eighth-avenue-chelsea-new-york

In this market, NO ONE should be considering buying in Harlem unless they work up there or have some other ties to the community. Within 6 months much of Lower Manhattan will be cheaper than Harlem is now.

totally agree sticky. Harlem makes less sense as prices drop on nicer areas. i rent in Harlem next to morningside park. i'm sick of the people on drugs doing it on broad day light steps from the school and the playground. i've been told the police doesn't do anything. if i find a bigger home with a similar rent on a better place i'd move on a heartbeat.

one of the reasons the place sometimes seems full of people on drugs and petty dealers might be the methadone clinics.they seem to be mostly uptown, like this one:

Harlem Hospital Center Methadone Treatment Clinic SPAN
264 West 118th Street

http://www.methadonetreatment.net/NY/New-York.php?state=NY&city=New%20York

i wouldn't buy anything next to a methadone clinic.

"in an article about the sheer number of Methodone clinics in Harlem- some of those referenced are not located in Harlem, others may or may not qualify as seperate facilities"

very true joe, the issue with different names given to the same address. but before reading it, i have no clue about these clinics but walked next to drug deals on a frequent basis. personally i don't care about the amount of clinics. having kids i don't want one next to them, same with child molesters. there's a register and there seemed to be a lot on harlem but much less on other areas of manhattan. this was back on 2006, no idea how it's now.

"totally agree sticky. Harlem makes less sense as prices drop on nicer areas. i rent in Harlem next to morningside park. i'm sick of the people on drugs doing it on broad day light steps from the school and the playground. i've been told the police doesn't do anything. if i find a bigger home with a similar rent on a better place i'd move on a heartbeat."

I am with you, except I live next to Marcus Garvey park. I "get" that one cannot rent or buy s BRAND NEW place for as cheap as Harlem, but while the price difference used to 30-50% versus below 96th west of second ave/Bowery anyway else in Manhattan, its now like 10% for a lot of areas. When I can get an identical place at 43rd and 9th or FiDi/BPC for the SAME price as Harlem, which I am seeing more and more - why put up with Harlem? All three areas are a bit remote, but there are a million times more stores and restaurants in Hells Kitchen, and FiDi/BPC is QUIET at night, no drug dealers or homeless, and per the crime stats is far safer than any other part of the City above Canal.

2280 has to lower prices a LOT...and unfortunately for them, as anyone who tracks streeteasy knows, going rental is NOT an option, since its just about impossible to rent 2 or 3 bedrooms in luxury buildings in Harlem, especially now when they are practically free in the aforementioned other ares.

They will lower their prices. . .a lot. As will other Harlem developments. Harlem has incredible potential, but the recession has stalled the growth. I still believe that as a long term investment, buying in Harlem will be very smart.

Of course FiDi and BPC are quiet and there are no drug dealers or homeless as compared to Harlem. Did you think they would be comparable in anyway? Harlem has people of low income living throughout its boundaries. Some live below the poverty level. As a result. . .well you know the results. FiDi and BPC are strictly upscale nabes. Stupid to even compare. But then again, FiDi and BPC have zero culture or personality. They are totally devoid of character. So, to each their own.

Question for Jason10006: I like Marcus Garvey Park, have been looking there to buy and I'm still waiting for the prices to go down, but, as you said, they are not falling as fast as other areas. Do you like that part of Harlem? Is it safe? Is it noisy at night?

bronxboy; "Of course FiDi and BPC are quiet and there are no drug dealers or homeless as compared to Harlem. Did you think they would be comparable in anyway... Stupid to even compare."

Why is it stupid when I have in fact lived in all three places, and am surely moving back to either Hells Kitchen or Fidi/BPC? I can't compare places I have lived in NYC, or where other people on this board can live? I say I can and i did an i will. People who know I have lived all over Manhattan ask me to compare neighborhoods all the time. What would be stupid would be to NOT compare. Given a choice of where to live - and I have one, I will only stay in Harlem if I get a redoneky kong deal in a brand spanking new doorman bldg. Otherwise I am moving...but according to you I should only consider low income places? Sorry, but I make way to much to limit myself to Harlem.

mimi: "Question for Jason10006: I like Marcus Garvey Park, have been looking there to buy and I'm still waiting for the prices to go down, but, as you said, they are not falling as fast as other areas. Do you like that part of Harlem? Is it safe? Is it noisy at night?"

Harlem is objectively safer than Hells Kitchen or Chelsea, per the FBI crime stats you can find at the NYT real estate site. Safety is not the issue - white women jog alone after sundown - but noise definitely is. It is literally louder some nights from ghetto couples arguing at 4 AM than it was living on 9th avenue in Hells Kitchen. Seriously! Not to mention the endless bongo drums on the weekend and the frequent events in the srping and summer at the park with amplified music...

If you can live on a high floor (which there only means 10th floor or higher at 5thonthepark) maybe. Or use a white noise loop on your computer, which is what I do. Also, its a bit of a hike to subway stations at night, but gypsy cabs are a lot easier to get than ANY type of taxi was in Fidi. Ooops! there I go comparing two dissimilar neighborhoods again. Unfortunately I do not know what the South Bronx is like.

It's stupid to compare the neighborhoods in terms of drug users, crime, noise etc as was stated. One neighborhood has many, many poor people and the other two, do not. So they are not comparable in that sense.FiDi, in my estimation, is not a neighborhood. It's a business district where now, people have moved, though far from family friendly. BPC is a non-diverse neighborhood far away from things. So they are really completely different from one another.

"It's stupid to compare the neighborhoods in terms of drug users, crime, noise etc as was stated. One neighborhood has many, many poor people and the other two, do not. So they are not comparable in that sense.FiDi, in my estimation, is not a neighborhood. It's a business district where now, people have moved, though far from family friendly. BPC is a non-diverse neighborhood far away from things. So they are really completely different from one another."

Really? You can live in FiDi-BPC - you can live in Harlem. How should you decide where to live? Oh, I know...COMPARE THE TWO! What is one thing you use to judge one versus the other? CRIME RATES AND NOISE. Since tens of thousands of people live below Canal, (8k in BPC, 19k in FiDi, 22k in Chinatown, 4k in the civic center, & 14k in Tribeca))

I am going to assume many of them, including myself, examined whether or not we should move there or another neighborhood. At the time one of those places offering similar value for my money was Harlem. After...COMPARING the two neighborhoods, I decided to move to FiDi. Next time Harlem. Now I think I would rather move back to Canal. Since I have lived in both, I can...COMPARE the two. My roommate had been to my FiDi place, and after...COMPARING his experience both neighborhoods, would also like to move down there. Or Hells Kitchen.

So, Bronxboy, as someone who makes six figures and lives in nice condo big enough for two more people if we wanted, should I ONLY consider other low income areas? Or now that prices are dropping in quieter, nicer parts of the city...am I allowed to...COMPARE Harlem to those places? Or do you think I would only be "smart" to consider Jamaica, Bed-Stuy, and SoBronx? I think it would be STUPID not to...COMPARE the nicest places in Harlem (which I and thousands of others who live in gentrified parts Harlem can afford) to now similarly priced places below 96th.

And back to the topic at hand - with 2280 FDB pricing at over 1000 per sf, and new-ish places all over Manhattan below 96th going for the same or less - a LOT less, why should people on this thread, who are discussing an expensive building - ONLY compare 2280FDB to Bed-stuy and Newark? Who is with me here - if you could afford 2280 FDB, which you consider that versus another ghetto area or versus a nicer part of the city for the same price?

And while we are at it...the below canal neighborhoods are more diverse in some ways than Harlem or the other neighborhoods you would have us compare to. Those places are as or more monolithicly BLACK or HISPANIC than Tribeca is WHITE, for example.

According the NYT real estate section - Non-hispanic whites are only 70% of the population in BPC, 55% in Tribeca, 56% in Civic Center, and 60% in FiDI. Harlem is 53% black, Hamilton Heights 56% hispanic, Washington Heights 67% hispanic, Bed-stuy 63% black, South Jamaica 64% black.

So how "diverse" a neighborhood is depends on your POV, but you will be more likely to see someone from a race other than your own if you live in Tribeca than Harlem. Statistically speaking.

I bet for BPC, TriBeCa, the non-existent "Civic Center", and FiDi, those numbers would be much higher if you included all the white people who decline to respond to the ethnicity question.

Consideting that Tribeca is like 30% asian, I bet you would be wrong.

Race White Non-Hispanic 55.2%
Hispanic 6.3%
Black 5.4%
Asian/Pacfic Islander 32.8%
Other 14.9%

http://realestate.nytimes.com/community/tribeca-new-york-ny-usa/demographics

Harlem lists 9% as "other" and Bed-stuy 11%. My dad is black and has his whole life said "American" when asked race out of principal, and being California I know more mixed-race people who say "other" than whites who do the same. Two of my four siblings do (I say black.) So its impossible for you to claim that the "other"s are all white people.

Jason is Mt Morris Park west a busy street? I have no idea if there is a ton of traffic coming from uptown going down 5th...I think that there is a bus stop in MMP & 122nd.
I prefer Harlem over FiDi, but this is personal. I lived in Tribeca in the 90s and I mostly ended saying goodbye to my artist friends there (they were priced out) and ended up interacting mostly with west indies nannies in the playground with my kids. Not interested in going back.

Jason,

I don't ever recall saying you should pick a neighborhood to live in because of income or ethnicity. You have badly twisted what I have written. Where you live is a personal choice, just as mimi has stated. She has no desire to return to monolithic Tribeca. That's her choice. I simply said you cannot compare FiDi or BPC (only those two neighborhoods) not the vast area below Canal which includes Chinatown and bits of the Lower East Side and housing projects. They (FiDi and BPC) just do not encompass what Harlem does. They are apples and oranges. You can compare anything if you like, but in the terms that was stated by a post above, talking about drugs, noise, crime, etc. . .of course FiDi and BPC have less of those elements than Harlem for obvious reasons.

Jason, which are your favorite New Developments in Harlem? cost/location/reason ....

http://manhattankids.blogspot.com/
Looks like businesses are leaving FDB. Main one that concerns me is WAMU -- not so much for access to the bank, but I was told by local residents that its arrival helped regulate the drug traffic at that corner.

I am still intrigued by Harlem as a choice, but not at prices comparable to UWS -- at present the difference is not significant for the SOHA area and for Morningside Heights/ UWS, and Harlem lacks the amenities just up the hill and promises a higher exposure to unsavory elements. ON the other hand almost everyone I know who lives in Harlem speaks of the community feeling -- except you are told to not walk on 114th or 111th etc

does anyone seem to think they are going to bring down the prices at FDB? I was told by my broker that they are in no hurry to sell so there is no real incentive for them to drop prices. thoguhts anyone? we are seriously looking to buy here and would appreaciate any advice.

mimi: Jason is Mt Morris Park west a busy street? I have no idea if there is a ton of traffic coming from uptown going down 5th...I think that there is a bus stop in MMP & 122nd.
I prefer Harlem over FiDi, but this is personal. I lived in Tribeca in the 90s and I mostly ended saying goodbye to my artist friends there (they were priced out) and ended up interacting mostly with west indies nannies in the playground with my kids. Not interested in going back.

Jason: Don't you DARE COMPARE Tribeca to Harlem! Bronxboy says you CANNOT.

To answer, MMPW is 5th continued, but its not as noisey as 5th and 125th. Its usually quiet Monday-Thursday night, though it can get loud on the weekends - but not from traffic, more from LOUD ghetto-ish pedestrians. Still quieter than 125th. Even Lenox is not that loud. THe street parties in the summer really happen over on ACP for some reason.

I think its a fine choice if you are comfortable with the area and want a LOT of room for your money - you can get a 1000 sq ft 1/1 in a renovated place for well under 2k per month.

For me, there is simply not enough NICE places yet. I rent, moved here to see if I might buy, but kind of can't wait any longer for more doorman luxury places on the cheap to open up, which is why I want to move.

As for wanderer's question, it depends on where you work and what you do for free time. I just think Harlem below 125th is generally a lot nicer than above, so the newer places at 129th/Lenox and 145th are just not viable. Plus I like being closer to central park, a gym (the nicest in Harlem are the three NYSC) etc. So if I were to stay, I would look at Kalahari since its near the park, NYSC, and the 2/3 express.

I think FDB from 110th to 125th is as nice as Harlem gets, is also near the park, and NYSC - has lots of doorman places, and is generally actually nicer than large parts of Manhattan Valley. Those subway lines just don't work for me. But the Fitzgerald is renting on the D-L via CitiHabitats, and has some nice places. To buy? Like 2280, they are ALL overpriced relative to what you could get in FiDi, BPC, HK, or one of the other places I would consider moving too.

Again, Jason twists what I write. You can compare anything you want. I've said enough what I believe can't be compared, but you, (bad reading glasses?) just continue to adapt what I write to what you think I'm writing.

From my earlier post (I've put it all in caps just in case you really do need reading glasses): "YOU CAN COMPARE ANYTHING IF YOU LIKE, BUT IN THE TERMS THAT WERE STATED BY A POST ABOVE, TALKING ABOUT DRUGS, NOISE, CRIME, ETC...OF COURSE FIDI AND BPC HAVE LESS OF THOSE ELEMENTS THAN HARLEM FOR OBVIOUS REASONS"

FDB will have no choice but to bring down their prices. Harlem's prices are falling fast. The Kalahari is the best development in the area, though its a few blocks from FDB, yet accessible because of the 2/3 trains.

The NY Times numbers for Tribeca's demographics are a bit screwy:
55.2% + 6.3% + 5.4% + 32.8% + 14.9% = 114.6%

Actually, if you go back to the original link, it lists "Other" as 149%. Maybe the decimal point should be after the one. Subbing in 1.49 for 14.9 gets you pretty close to 100%.

In fact, it looks like the "Other" numbers are off for all the neighborhoods. In most cases, I don't think the value exceeds 1-2% of the total population.

Ord you are correct I think. It has some neighborhoods as 90% and another as 140% other. Clearer decimals are wrong.

My point is, a black man living in Harlem i find it laughable that someone would say its "more diverse" than Tribecca, since its as monolithically black at times as Tribecca is white. A REALLY diverse NYC neighborhood would be Astoria, where no one religious group, nationality, or racial group makes up a large chunk.

Put in a bid at 2280 FDB for $40000 less than their asking price and they wouldn't even consider it, their counter offer was their asking price. The sponsor seems pretty damn snooty and must think this is the place to be despite all the new construction and competition around the area. This place doesn't even offer that many amenities in comparison to other new construction buildings. Just because there is more traffic out there, doesn't mean people are foolish and pay asking price and aren't going to look for the best deal in this economy.

Good luck to anyone who can strike a deal here, we're gonna keep looking.

Nicolainspain
2280 FDB, 265 W 122 and 271 W 122 are all owned/developed by a Hans Futterman.Likely related to Futterman developing Fifth on the Park, and to other Real estate Futterman's in the city.

These people, Working with the Boland/Engler realtors have managed to get close to $1k psf in Harlem for their developments. Other realtors cite these as high value, well developed units. Give them credit for excellent marketing, and for catering to the crowd that wants the sub-zero with the Gaggeanu and the granite (ahem, Caserstone) countertop. They price the tax abatement into the asking price, so the buyer is totally not getting a break on that.
On the other hand, their expectations and responses are completely out of touch with reality. So far they have been successful developing and marketing boutique properties in a rising market, and waiting it out until the right buyer shows up for the unit.

For Hans Futterman this is his largest development to date -- he may have another comparable one in progress. This one is anchored by the 20/80 moderate income program and the non-market units will likely sell out quickly and provide the base customers for the building.

Will be interesting to see if their model for ostentatious living in Harlem succeeds in a down market. Perhaps they will regret turning down your offer in a few months, or they will indeed find the suckers who will pay their prices, or the LLC will happily cede the building to the financier.

I would consider myself lucky that they did not accept your offer -- why you would want to offer and buy at 5% below ask on a building that won't be ready till summer/Fall 2010 is beyond my comprehension. May be you should have offered at least 30% below ask and they would have countered with something. If you are willing to pay 5% below in the current market, you might just be the sucker who performs at the asking price

IF that's their attitude, walk away with a smile and wish them good luck. Maybe by the time construction is finished (if they can finance it) the real estate in NYC will begin to boom again, though it's very doubtful. If they can find enough suckers for their pre-construction project, then the last laugh is on them.

BTW, excellent post, Joe Davis.

I agree with joedavis. If jd's identification of the developer is correct, then Futterman and company are already in trouble at 5th on the Park (they've had at least 10 walkaways according to a recent article). The bottom line here is that new development prices in "prime" locations cannot help but exert significant downward pressure on prices at 2280 FDB.

The other dirty little secret is that the Harlem condo buildings coming on line this year and next are going to have to compete with the withheld "shadow" inventory that developments which have claimed to be selling so well will have to put on the market. The shadow inventory problem will be compounded by the fact that in some of the "successful" developments, sponsors are beginning to face resale competition from owners who purchased at the top of market but are now finding themselves forced to sell. Look at the history of 267 West 124th St., just up the street from 2280 FDB. Those apartments hit the market 2 years ago, and the developer of that property is still trying to unload the two largest (and most expensive) units in the building (for a ridiculous price, I might add). He now has to compete with two of the original buyers in the building, and against himself at a brand new development he's just finishing up called Windows on 123rd a few blocks away. He's likely to face the same situation at 50 West 127th Street, where one can find resale listings starting to compete with unsold sponsor units. (BTW, I haven't even mentioned what's going on developments like the St. Claire on 5th, which seems to have fallen off the map. Bankruptcy followed by auctions at firesale prices, anyone?)

Remember, this is all happening in a market where we're beginning to see comparable apartments in economically "developed" neighborhoods further downtown being offered at the same or slightly higher prices as the new Harlem developments. Buyers who thought they couldn't afford properties in so-called "prime" locations are seeing that that's no longer the case-- I've done the comps and found places all over Manhattan whose price cuts percentages are making the asking prices in new Harlem developments look more and more absurd. Developers of properties like 2280 FDB and Windows on 123rd will soon have to pay, and pay hard, for their delusional belief that 2006 business models will trump the realities of the 2009 economy.

Sit tight: the "new rules" of the RE leave no doubt that time and the macroeconomy are on the side of the patient buy-side player.

I dealt with the developer of 2280 (if he is the same as 5th on the Park) in the summer of 2007 when I was interested in 5th on the Park,. I was ready to make an offer on a 2 bedroom and wanted to see if there was any wiggle room in the pre-construction price, either in offering parking or something else for making a bid at the developers price. The developer's son literally scoffed at me for even suggesting such a thing. So I walked away, mainly because of his attitude, but also because I was skeptical 5th on the Park would not be done by the fall of 2008. As it turned out, I'm very very happy I walked away. 5th on the Park is still not livable in the spring of 2009 and the peak prices I was almost ready to shell out are now laughable. I think they need a serious reality check. But again, there might be suckers out there.

Joe davis, thanks for your input as to why Futterman isn't even considering our offer. Let me tell you though, we put in an initial bid of $575K + transfer taxes to be paid (asking price $690). They wouldn't counter with anything, they basically told our broker that they won't even look at that, so we countered with $650 as we might have entertained paying that amount. We could theoretically lock in an interest rate for one year (being all time lows now), and make enough savings by next year to pay the full 20% down and avoid the PMI. So that was our strategy. If they aren't even countering at 5% below asking price, then about 15% below DEFINITELY won't be considered. There is no way we would pay their asking price.

"The other dirty little secret is that the Harlem condo buildings coming on line this year and next are going to have to compete with the withheld "shadow" inventory that developments which have claimed to be selling so well will have to put on the market. The shadow inventory problem will be compounded by the fact that in some of the "successful" developments, sponsors are beginning to face resale competition from owners who purchased at the top of market but are now finding themselves forced to sell."

add to that the "shadow" inventory of those that bought using a lottery (at about a third of the mkt price), which in harlem are a lot of the developments from 2000 on and many brownstones too. once they live there for 10 years they can sell and pocket the difference. i wouldn't be surprised if many of those want to take their profits.

you can call them the "lottery flippers", it would be nice to know how many of them there are and in which year they could be free to sell. i know that the lotteries didn't include initially that 10 year requirement, and a whole lot of them behaved just like flippers. that's the reason it was added.

cherrywood, bronxboy, joedavis...thanks for your input. I have my broker chirping in my ear that prices are starting to go up as per the presidents economic stimulus plan and interest rates, of course this makes us nervous...but we are not silly enough to pay their asking price, and i know at the end of the day our broker is doing her job and trying to get us to buy.

Is it best to just look at property that has already been constructed and ready to move into, or are there any advantages to signing a contract with preconstruction? (especially if you don't lock in an interest rate ahead of time, and you are subject to interest rates at the time of closing).

Thanks, i'm just starting to really understand the process, but need advice from more experienced shoppers. Any thoughts on Kalahari or Graceline Court?

smtr, Graceline Court? i wouldn't do it. why would you buy now an starter place in a bad building (Graceline qualifies for that) instead of waiting for prices to drop and buying a non-starter place for the same $? or you think prices are going up from here?

as i see it, you are being paid not to buy right now. why wouldn't you say "thanks!" and wait? rents are falling all over the place, there is a huge inventory of rentals w/o brokers fees in the same area you are looking to buy. if your income is not above $150K do consider stabilized rentals, which in harlem are all over the place. right now, if you consider maintenance+interest on the mtg+taxes+insurance... you are above stab rents already!

very good point, and we are not in a huge rush to move imminently (although, with a new baby, will be needing something within the year) and already pay a quite affordable rent, so unless the right price comes along, we don't' plan on buying. but with that being said, i'm not sure who to believe about prices...are they going up? or will they continue to go down? Of course there is no crystal ball to say for sure, so that's the dilemma, its all hear say. Not to mention that inflation is definitely going into effect (case and point the $20 increase in Metro cards).

Nico, I live in the Kalahari as a renter. So far, so good. It's very well managed and maintained. The location is also great in terms of the subway--takes me half an hour to get to midtown in the morning.

That said, the neighborhood isn't great for food. There's this huge grocery store on the corner, but it's all stuff like Oreos, Captain Crunch, Fanta soda. The produce looks good but it's more expensive than Whole Foods--and that's saying a lot. The meat is also crap. If you like seafood, though, there's this fresh seafood place just a couple doors down. I haven't tried it yet, but it's always crowded, which must be a good sign. There's also an Italian place on Lenox that everyone tells me is great.

In other words, I love my home--I'm not so crazy about where it is. I still go out for dinner and do most of my errands (including groceries) near work or where I used to live on the uws.

The Kalahari is the best of the new developments. And you can do much better in terms of negotiating with the developers. They are more in tune with the current reality than 2280. Your broker is wrong. Prices are definitely not going up and won't, especially in Harlem, for a long, long time. Don't believe that for a second. Graceline Court was a huge mistake; it's poorly conceived. As ValB said, there is definitely a dearth of good eating in the neighborhood and sadly, because of the recession, things won't improve anytime soon.

I agree with Bronxboy - Kalahari is the best development. Building is complete with all amenities, 80+% sold out. They have been moving units at <$600 psf, which is a bargain compared to 5th on the Park, 2280 and even Graceline Court, which is hard to believe. Graceline has only 9 closings - 50% of contracted buyers did not go to closing.

Maraman, That's a staggering figure. Where did you get those numbers about the % of Graceline Court contracts that did not get to closing? I think we are going to see much the same happen at 5th on the Park, not least because a lot of people who went to contract on those apartments are definitely not going to be able to get mortgages in the amounts that were available when they first signed.

Cherrywood, check out the closings in ACRIS. If you look at the SE website, there are 12 in contract. I think maybe 1 or 2 were signed recently, but most of the others are pre-construction sales that surely could have closed by now. They have TCOs for most units, so one can only surmise that those other have walked away or could not get financing.
I agree this trend will be seen as other projects begin to close.

cherrywood loved your rant. So true.

But I mean Dr. Miranda Bailey will live in 5th on the park!

Anyway, I cannot WAIT to see what ABSURD rents the church that owns 57 of the units will ask for, and how badly the investor owners will bid down those rents (as is the case at SoHa118 & Kalahari.) 2280 will just there, with nothing purchased, for at least a year. There are still units left in SohA118 and the Fitzgerlad, plus the others mentioned. no way no how.

I'm not surprised about Graceline. I went to look at apartments before I decided to sit it out for a while and rent. From the flimsy doors to the workmanship, it all looked cheap. The model apt, of course, was beautiful. It's sort of unbelievable that they're asking for more than Kalahari, when Kalahari has a concierge.

jason and others :
ANy thoughts about brownstones vs these developments in this area?
There are condos in brownstones and there are full brownstones
We invariably have semerun pop up on a Harlem discussion to tell us how all is safe and wonderful, but since I frequently walk through Harlem, and invariably run into something that is at least a bit disturbing, I wonder if it would make sense to own a brownstone there -- single family vs a condo in a larger building.
Futterman sold his own brownstone condo on 123rd st -- 354 or 352 -- and got $1.7 million for 2 floors and the roof. He had 3 units in that building on a street that is not the most inspiring.
On the other hand there are potentially brownstones available for much less that need renovation.
I am not seeing those prices come down as much as they should either -- v few are selling though.
Just wondering

i was talking to a brownstone owner the other day, he bought his for half a million in 2001. the issue for the middle class in harlem are the schools. some are improving but not fast enough to avoid having to consider private school if you have a toddler. also as other people say, lack of good retail and restaurants are an issue. but the schools are key if you plan to have a family (which i guess is very common with brownstoners).

On per sq ft basis, you get a much better deal on brownstones versus doormen in Harlem as compared to the UWS below 86th or Gramercy, sure. If you look at just a few websites you will see 4,000 SF RENOVATED brownstones (plus another 1000SF for basements) for sale for less than $2MM, and its looks like some have sold recently for more like $1.7mm. If you can rent one or two floors, and have two floors plus basement to your self it sounds like a good deal.

However, I live in condo in a brownstone which was renovated in 2005, and let me tell you it has more problems by far than my last doorman place (which was pre-war.) Mainly with the boiler in the basement - heat is CONSTANTLY not reaching all the way up to my bedroom. So make sure that they did a good job renovating.

Plus I get sick of walking up and down very narrow staircases.

And street-level noise is a constant problem in Harlem in a way it was not in FiDi or Hell Kitchen (and I lived on 9th ave in HK!) Lower income people in HK were for some reason much less likely to to have arguments at four in the morning than are Harlem ones. (And I lived in some overtly ghetto neighborhoods back in Cali and can say that they were also quiter.)

So unless you pay up for soundproofing your windows, expect loud teens, quarreling couples, 600 watt speakers blaring rap from passing cars, bongo drums in the park, and frequent street fairs to wake you up no matter what quiet-seeming side street you live on.

Has anyone noticed that the broker for this development seems to have stopped scheduling Sunday open houses-- a mere month after it began showing? Looks like there's trouble, right here in Hudson River city-- or, more precisely, on 123rd Street.

Construction is still happening for sure. It gets bigger ever week. I think they are not showing because why waste time when the market is so bad now? The same developer has to move already built places - windows 123 and 5th on the park. He likes #s in bldg names.

Does anyone know if 2280 has adjusted their pricing to reflect the current state of Harlem real estate? I see they list at just under $1000 per sf. That's about $300 or $400 more than anyone should pay in Harlem right now. Crazy.

LOLOLOL!!!!

$365K for a STUDIO in HARLEM????

68 Bradhurst just sold a 1,350 sqft penthouse for $450K. Take 'em down or watch 'em sit. ..and sit. . .and sit.

bronxboy, which PH unit was that?

http://curbed.com/archives/2009/09/03/new_harlem_penthouse_selling_for_spare_change.php#more

bronxboy, isn't that still kind of a rumor? although that has been sitting forever. that building sold very quickly, and then notthhhiiiinnnnggggg.

It's not totally confirmed, but the "quote" was from the buyer. Either way, high end in Harlem just sits until it hits $600 per sf or less.

Anybody else seen a offering plan for this development? The developer coincidentally left all those luxurious amenities that were supposed to be inside the unit.

The developer is the same as who developed the now bankrupt, 5th on the Park. Watch out for him. They promise much, but have yet to deliver anything.

Has anyone on this list signed a contract for an apartment in this building?

A friend signed for one of the lottery units. And from what he told me other lottery winners are signing as well.

sure, those that win the lottery get still a good deal. but if it's like soha, the lottery winners need the market priced buyers to pay the maintenance for them. wonder what happens to a development like that when only lottery winners move in.

"the now bankrupt, 5th on the Park." really? didn't know that it went belly up. in that development the church next to it has a bunch of units, right? what happen with those? bet they are not at market rate (but don't know for sure).

Anybody have experience with hpd sponsored condominiums?
I was wondering if the lottery winners had some type of protection against the building going bankrupt and people losing their deposits.

And how do people get financing when the building is less than 50% occupied? I thought that was a requirement

Hey Jimmy,

We had been dealing with Beacon Towers in Harlem, a co-op, which unfortunately could not close in time for us. The contract stated that the downpayment money goes into escrow and stays there, and that it is still your money until you close. In the event of bankruptcy it is returned to you, although how long that process could take, I couldn't tell you. It's really important to look at any dates in the contract about when closings have to take place, etc. When we first talked to Beacon in June they talked about occupation in July/August, but when we actually got to contract negotiations, they would only guarantee in writing that they would close by April, which did not work for us at all.

Beacon required 75% sold before they could declare their offering plan effective, become a co-op, and start to close. They offered a mortgage contingency which required that we contacted three banks they specified who had arranged financing with the building. One of these was BOA, who did not make it seem like it would be a problem that it was only 50% sold at the time. In the event that none of Beacon's banks would give you a mortgage you get your money back.

I'm curious how Beacon is doing nowadays. Whenever we mentioned it to brokers they would always tell us it had been horribly mismanaged.

With 2280 FDb they said there aren't any banks that they are working with. So therefore its the full responsibility of the purchaser to obtain financing. My question is how to avoid the strict rules of condo loans so that I don't have to wait until the building is 50% occupied?

Went to see this place today, but only got to see the show and tell area, not any of the apartments. The finishes seem genuinely nice, bu the prices seem overly high. They claim lots of sales. I wonder if that's really true and what kind of discounts they're giving to those who are making deals. Any insights?

Hi- anyone have recent information on this building?

is the parking in this building for sale or rent?

Wayyyy overpriced condos.

The building is done, I've been to see the one bedrooms, wasn't overly impressed with the spaces, but the finishes are very nice. The parking in this building is for rent, which is a drawback to me.

The building was nice, but overpriced. The parking has to be rent because there is no way to drive your own car into a space since it is an elevator to get down to parking level. Why they built it this way is beyond me, but how do you sell a space you can not get to. The monthly costs to keep someone there would be a burden on the people who owned the spaces.

Agreed, not sure why they would not let the residents purchase the parking spaces. Once a company gets ahold of it, prices will never stop going up.

Is anyone living here? How are the units, I do think the units seem overpriced given the location. 125th street is kind of a mess.

Agreed with overpriced. For the 2BRs we were looking at, they were a lot smaller, less open and costlier than the Apex next door (where we're currently in contract), and not quite as high end.

I think the 125th corridor is great, though, as is FDB. Sorry you don't like it!

Still, location isn't everything. While this was a nice building, it wasn't even my 3rd choice. 88 morningside was #2, and maybe Windows 123 was a distant third, although we would have looked at Ellington on the Park up on 148th before settling for one of our backups... it seemed like it might be worth getting a ton of extra space for the money to just be one more stop up on the AD.

Windows 123 has parking which is a plus, but you start getting away from the park up there. also when you get east you start moving away from the subway line if you need to get to midtown for work.

Agreed... though I work above Penn Station, and Windows was very close to the 2/3. Being on the A/D is 1000 times better.

29 months and counting!!
overpriced!! small bedrooms,- take the hint and lower your prices.
almost coming up on 3 year anniversary trying to sell fancy kitchen cabinets and fancy bathroom tiles!
For $1.3mm i can get an older 2 bedroom in Tribeca and send my kids to the best elementary school out there- P.S. 234.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/576966-condo-275-greenwich-street-tribeca-new-york

As promised- For $1.2mm- 2 BR right across the street from best P.S. in Manhattan- P.S. 234

"For $1.3mm i can get an older 2 bedroom in Tribeca and send my kids to the best elementary school out there- P.S. 234. "

Yeah, in this building you can get a THREE bedroom, brand new, for 25% less. Its not apples to apples at all.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/345697-condo-2280-frederick-douglass-b-central-harlem-new-york

A brand new 2 bds/2baths under $700k

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/535088-condo-2280-frederick-douglass-b-central-harlem-new-york

Why compare that to a $1.3MM Tribecca condo? Its senseless. For the extra $600k, you could use half to send you kids to private school, invest the other half and have enough, with interest, to pay their tuition by the time they are 18.

Alternatively, you could buy BOTH the $700k 2/bds 2baths, which is the right comp for your Tribecca unit, and also the 1 bed for $500k, rent out the smaller one for income, and still have $100k left over.

Try coming back with a three bedroom, 2 bath place with W/D in unit in Tribecca for $1.3MM in a doorman bldg.

Come on, Jason! Stop shilling Central Harlem like paying $700/foot is acceptable! You're getting laughtable and totally uncredible!

jason, private school is running upwards of $35,000 a year. even if it didn't increase at all over the 13 years, two kids at 13 years x $35,000, according to my handy desktop calculator, is $910,000.

yes, greenwich court would be a squeeze compared to a three bedroom, but i strongly suspect the realities of private school are not first and foremost in your thoughts.

i take back my comment about greenwich court being a squeeze compared to the three bedroom. that three bedroom is f'ng tiny.

I am hardly a shill for central harlem. in fact, I get accused of spamming this boards with anti-harlem stuff too by some crazily pro-Harlem people.

Its just silly to compare a $1.3MM 2/2 bth built 20 years ago to a $1.3MM 3 bd 2.5 bth with w/d in unit just built. You should compare the 700k 2/2 to a 2/2.

And I am aware that SOME private schools cost $35k a year, but that is not what they ALL cost.

Any views on the noise level from the Precinct across the street?

these seem overpriced for the square footage and the area, the farther you get from the park the worse the area gets.

Is anyone considering renting their one or two bedroom condo in this building? If so please let me know (I'm a potential renter, not a realtor!). I can be reached at this username at gmail.

Thanks!

I'm also curious about the noise levels here - from the police station across the street and also from other apartments. My guess is the walls are quite thin like other recent construction, but would like some feedback from current residents...

what's the deal with the parking lot exactly? your car has to be parked like in most parking lots in the city? I don't really see a problem with not being able to drive into a spot... A bit inconvenient to sometimes have to call down to get your car ready 15-30 mins in advance, but not the end of the world.

I live in the Apex on the next block up, but we park our car in 2280. The neighborhood is pretty quiet when I'm on the street level, as is our building.

The 2280 garage is really small. I think they only have space for 30 or 40 cars at most. Right now, there are fewer than 20 cars parking there. So it never takes more than about 10 minutes to get our car.