If You Can Demonstrate Market Movement With Comps: Upper West Side Edition

473 West End Avenue "C" line. The August closing on #11C, which had no significant problems and originally asked $2.5MM, suggests a stunning drop to 2003-ish levels for an excellent line with river views on high floors. The sale of #11C took nearly a month to reach ACRIS. #4C has been in contract since June.
--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
*CONTRACT* # 4C ............................ |↓ $1,725,000 2 beds 2 baths
08/07/2009 #11C $1,666,000 -14.6% |↓ $1,950,000 Sold 2 beds 3 baths 1,700 ft²
05/08/2006 #14C $2,400,000 - 4.0% |↓ $2,500,000 Sold 2 beds 3 baths
07/29/2004 #12C $1,825,000
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/473-west-end-avenue-manhattan
The sellers traded up to a larger, low-floor apartment in the building. They may have jumped the gun on their purchase: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/772829

so wait. these people moved from an 11th floor Classic 6 to a 2nd floor Classic 7 and lost $1.4 million in the process? is it even clear that the 2nd floor 7 is more valuable than the 11th floor, river view 6?

this is a pretty shocking trade.

actually, worse. they bought the 2nd floor at the top (pun intended). when it comes time to sell, they will have the opportunity lose even more.

219 West 81st Street (Avonova), renovated "F" line. 2BR/2BA, 1,304 ft²
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | ---------- Previous Listings ----------
09/22/2009 # 9F $1,375,000 -23.7% |↑ $1,815,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,304 ft²
09/05/2008 #11F $1,720,000 - 6.3% | . $1,835,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,304 ft²
06/13/2008 # 5F $1,485,000 ........ | [Resident manager's unit]
06/11/2008 # 7F $1,775,000 ........ |

re: 473 WEA, so where does 11A trade? Adjusting up from 11C suggests low 2s, but that would be ~40% off peak same line comp and 25-30% off the ill-fated lower floor trade discussed above, which just feels like a lot. The word that comes to mind looking at the recent price history in this building is "dislocation".

302 West 86st Street "A" line. 2BR/2BA, front-facing 5.5.
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | ---------- Previous Listings ----------
09/21/2009 #11A $1,250,000 -10.7% |↓ $1,400,000 2 beds 2 baths -
10/24/2007 #12A $1,850,000 +13.8% | . $1,625,000 2 beds 2 baths
02/17/2006 # 4A $1,425,000 - 5.0% | . $1,500,000 2 beds 2 baths
09/20/2005 # 5A $1,625,000 + 8.3% | . $1,500,000 2 beds 2 baths
09/15/2004 # 2A $1,340,000 - 4.4% | . $1,399,000 2 beds 2 baths 1,500 ft²
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/302-west-86-street-manhattan
Can't blame the broker for the drop, since the same team handled the last two sales in the line. #11A needed updating, but it was quite gracious. The construction next door at 535 WEA clearly didn't help, and the bedroom built-ins might have been a little overdone.

771 West End Avenue "B" line. South-facing classic six.
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | ---------- Previous Listings ----------
*CONTRACT* #9B ....................... |↓ $1,595,000 2 beds 2.5 baths 1,700 ft²
08/28/2009 #5B $1,250,000 - 7.4% |↓ $1,350,000 2 beds 2 baths 1,700 ft²
09/14/2004 #2B $1,360,000 + 0.7% | . $1,350,000 2 beds 2 baths 1,700 ft²
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/771-west-end-avenue-manhattan
#5B took a month to reach ACRIS. It was an estate sale, but in very good condition. At under $750/SF, with fairly low maintenance in a nice building, it seems to be a significant trade.

Has any area had a more precipitous fall than West End above 96th street? Correct me if I am wrong but that sounds to me like a 2002 price. Now, 2002 was not exactly a dying real estate market (prices were already way up from a couple years earlier) but that's a serious decline.

I will be curious to see what 9B closes for, or if this closing puts pressure on that sale.

15 West 84th St. #9DE closed on 9/30 for $920K.
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | -------- Previous Listings --------
09/30/2009 #9DE $920,000 -7.5% |↓ $995,000 2 beds 2 baths 1,300 ft²
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/399490-coop-15-west-84th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

There's no direct comp for this pleasant, 5.5-room combination. But consider the puncturing of expectations in this rather plain, postwar doorman coop. Eighteen months ago, a three-bedroom combo on the second floor, with just a few more shares than #9DE, was asking $2.85MM (see http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/192759-coop-15-west-84th-street-upper-west-side-new-york). That one eventually sold for $1.925MM. In 2006 #3H, with one bathroom and 43% fewer shares than #9DE, sold for $892K - just 3% less than #9DE fetched in 2009. That drop in per-share price, from $3244 to $1897, will deflate a lot of plans for retirement and college tuition funding.

cat food

250 West 94th St, Apt. 5K. Apologies if this one has already been posted. H line was discussed by West81st a couple of pages up.

Below 2004 comps and 27% below a peak comp (#3K) that with hindsight looks like a rather unwise purchase given the low floor. However, #5K is an estate sale and none of the comps were, for what that's worth.

08/06/2009 #5K $534,000 -9.0% $587,000
01/19/2006 #3K $735,000
12/28/2005 #14K $722,500
08/04/2005 #10K $695,000
12/20/2004 #12K $605,000
12/08/2004 #7K $560,000
10/04/2004 #6K $605,000
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/379004-coop-250-west-94th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

wow. would it be appropriate to start a 2003 price comp thread yet? I think west 81 named a few that were approaching 2003 prices but this one has to be absolute 2003, no?

Given estate status, I'm not sure. West81st and 30yrs (to name a couple) have a much more nuanced perspective than I do on what estate can mean and not mean for value and comps. I'd just observe that it wouldn't take a huge reno budget to make $534k + reno equal a late 2004 price.

Of course, then you could get into the discussion, usually not considered in SE comps, of nominal vs. constant dollar prices. Just making up numbers, if $534k did mean $600k-ish adjusted for reno (I'm taking no view on actual reno cost, just picking something that makes the result a round number), that $600k in 2009$ is something like $540k in 2004$, and that surely sounds like a 2003 price.

Just to add a little color to the 2003/2004 discussion, #4K sold for $510K in April 2004.

Do you mind me asking how you found that? There is no price (that I could find) in ACRIS and the Dept of Finance annual sales data file has an April sale but no associated unit #.

Sidelinesitter: #4K was listed at the time, with a $510K asking price and the same closing date as the line you saw on the rolling sales report. Putting the two together, it seemed pretty safe to infer that the sale was #4K.

22 E 88 apt 7D

8/18/09 closing 8.3% below '04 basis
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/911430

6/21/04
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/8128

wow.... the market is so bad not only did the price sink to below '04 levels, but it got moved to the West Side ;).

eastside westside, it's all gravy

http://www.prudentialelliman.com/listings.ASpx?ListingID=1168713

125 West 76th Apt 5B recently listed for $1,395,000
Apt 8A in same building went into contract and closed Sept 2008 (timing good?) for $1,565,000 off of a last ask of $1,600,000 and original ask of $1,800,000
Similar classic sixes. Not sure of condition on 5B though listed as with "redone kitchen"

Hmm, surprised that the 7th floor NE corner combo (to be combined) at the Ansonia went into contract quickly at ask of 4.75m.

I was very interested in the SE combo last summer on a high flr at the Ansonia with park views down 72nd, but it was missing 2 rooms (and it was an RS apt). Marketed at 3.5, took a while to close at 3m.

565 West End Avenue #16C: Spacious, art deco 5.5 with flexible layout and beautiful views. Renovated kitchen, mostly original baths in good condition. Three-time same-unit resale, down 29.8% from peak and 17.9% from post-peak.
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | ---------- Previous Listings ----------
10/02/2009 #16C $1,650,000 -5.7% |↓ $1,750,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths
10/16/2008 #16C $2,010,000 -6.5% | . $2,150,000 2 beds 2 baths 1,550 ft²
02/15/2008 #16C $2,350,000 +6.8% | . $2,200,000 3 beds 2 baths 1,550 ft²
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/378037-coop-565-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

and from before the peak one floor down:

09/02/2004 #15C $1,675,000

cannot believe we are still at 2004 pricing. would have thought we would be at 2001/2 levels by now. what would it take?

More time

wonder where prices would have been if we had the fortune of the bubble blowers not to exist (bernanke, greenspan, paulson, mishkin, geithner ...). how much a typical family is losing by having to pay this inflated prices cause of this gang of $ printers? of course, renting is an alternative, but rents were also inflated thanks to the bubble (for those out of the rent stab system).

admin -- for those of us who are actively looking to buy, it is still difficult to find something that jumps at you as nice, at a substantial discount from 2007 pricing. Yes there are sales that are happening that are at lower prices
Have bought now, and am helping a couple of friends --
one is interested in cpw and really is not seeing the kind of discounts one hopes for
the other is UWS 3 br and story is similar

Apt23 had an interesting basis for arguing prices will go lower - we will see a big project "fail" and give out big discounts. While not all apts are fungible, I can't help but think that new condos going at 700/sqft will have a HUGE knockon effect on pricing throughout the UWS.

wow -- $700 psf new condos on the uws sounds great -- maybe I can get out of my contract
Can you please provide a pointer. Will appreciate it

Look at the other thread - ballsy

so only distressed or semi-distressed stuff is for sale? if really nice property is what you are talking about, if the family can hold on to a property (say, to give it to one of your kids) and have enough $ so that carrying costs is a non issue... then why sell? only if you think the economy will suck japanese style. if high inflation is what tehy expect then, why sell? again the deflation/inflation discussion.

what i see is that the affluent middle class is not affluent at all and is heading towards retirement in mass. net worth is 70% their home! in wealthy families real estate is 5% of net worth. most have a very illiquid portfolio thanks to their house (i wouldn't add it at all in their "net wealth" unless they are committed to downsize big time)... if they don't downsize that house is gonna be a huge money pit. but in liquid investments the average affluent middle class household 55-65 has less than what i saved for retirement so far (i'm in my 30s)!!! amazing! imho there's not a whole lot of retired people that can sustain property taxes and maintenance costs during retirement.

i'm beginning to hear stories of unemployed people close to retirement that have their house paid for but cannot pay property taxes so they will lose it anyway (not in nyc though, but here carrying costs are huge and they are out of control of the "owner"). now, i don't know if htey claim they cannot pay those taxes but could by using retirement savings or really (so what htey are really saying is that they want a prop 13 and shift the burden to the young), or that they really don't have anything liquid besides the house (they were going paycheck by paycheck?).

We had this debate before about what affluent middle class means in Manhattan. All I know is that there are many people who own 5-room, 6-room, 7-room apts, or 2br+ condos for whom the RE is a sig. chunk of their net worth. If they had to move for any reason, their place goes on the market. Obviously new dev. isn't going to be in the same exact location as existing housing stock, but there will be an impact on prices overall if "failed" new dev. is selling at 700/sqft.

"We had this debate before about what affluent middle class means in Manhattan. "

sure, i wouldn't like to come back to it. just that we were talking about level of income (wage related mostly) of household with at least 1 adult working. how does a couple of retirees cope with higher and out of their control maintenance costs/assessments. what i'm saying is, many of those that consider themselves affluent will not be at all once they retire. here in most of the northeast, owning you home outright doesn't mean you are saving on rent. many times renting is cheaper than carrying costs on a house.

Admin: my parents, case in point. Own a 3br modest house in suburbs (worth 400k conservatively), fully paid off. Carrying costs (utilities + taxes) = 8k annually. They have some savings which they don't touch (have universal HC, socialist state). Civil service pensions (modest but very unlikely to go belly up). Their house is extremely well-maintained, kept immaculately clean, clutter-free so nothing to fix if they put it on the market. Yet, they will never transition to a care-free rental. Ever. And they are typical of people of their generation. Due to G. Depression and global upheaval, they both grew up in quasi-public housing and have owned their primary residence since they were young adults. It is a very important psych. crutch for them. They "made" it. No economic sense whatsoever for them to own.

you are surprised we aren't earlier than 2004 pricing? this apartment just sold 30% below peak pricing. the Dow, for instance, is trading around 2004 pricing, and equities are traditionally far more volatile (although also higher returning) than residential real estate. the fact is that the federal government stepped in in a huge way with an absolutely enormous transfer of wealth from the taxpayers to the finance industry. the massive subsidy to finance is an indirect subsidy to NYC real estate. so real estate has not declined as much as i thought it would either by this point, and i would imagine that the overall decline will be somewhat muted by the impact of the finance bailout. but do not sneer at 30% declines. there are many apartments for sale in many neighborhoods, many price points, and high quality units to be had for 30% below peak prices.

ballsy thread -- did not find a discussion of 700psf - are you referring to the 1000-800 psf at linden78?
is this speculation or reality?
I was not able to find listings there that come in at either of these prices?
would be really keen to get at that price
thx

"They "made" it. No economic sense whatsoever for them to own."

same with my parents! they wouldn't consider downsizing for psychological reasons, but they include the value of the house in their net worth (wouldn't do reverse mtg either, so why including it as an asset!? it's more of a tamagotchi imho).

wow, guess it's generational. i'm increasingly feeling that nobody makes it really in usa (on a permanent basis), i't s a state of mind mostly. ny state pensions are severely unfunded, to the tune of 50% without taking into account current revenue decreases... but guess it might not affect current retirees but future ones (or higher taxes?). we will see how that goes. 50% of the cost comes from health care benefits, if that's gotten rid of (by shifting the burden to the federal government with universal coverage then... pensions will be solvent).

it would be just a gimmick though, but you see exactly teh same patterns pretty much across the board (very tough to find a fully funded public pension fund in USA, even before the crash). to my surprise, i find young baby boomers confident on their pension even though it's only 40% funded and the old baby boomers will come before them... envy the optimism.

happyrenter, "the fact is that the federal government stepped in in a huge way with an absolutely enormous transfer of wealth from the taxpayers to the finance industry."...

which might not be higher than the transfer of wealth they engineered between homeowners and renters by trying to sustain unsustainable home prices to the detriment of those 1st time buyers on the sidelines, ... (pretty much from youngster to older folks). let's not forget that. the beneficiaries of these manipulations are not only mean guys sitting at the board of a bank, nor mean and powerful unsecured debt holders... on to other things after venting my anger... sorry for taking space from this thread.

My parents aren't in the U.S. and their pensions are solid (made some bad investments like everyone else, but better actuarial practice than NY state). Pensions are separate from health insurance.

nice! i wouldn't trust the public pensions in ny to deliver, not even being a current retiree (only if old enough). in ny there are more retired firefighters and policemen than those working. at some point the taxpayer will realize they are paying not for current services but overdue bills left over by the previous generation. what for?

btw, firefighters and policemen get a $12k "christmas bonus" every december after working for 20 years, #270,000 retirees already on the gravy train. soon there will be more retired teachers than working ones... why paying for all that when there's geographic arbitrage away from union states to right to work ones? wonder whether it's not so much the sun the retirees look for, it's also exit from these liabilities.

Who can predict the future? But something's got to give. I can't see current employees being too happy to carry non-tax paying retirees on their back.

admin, my point is not to bash the finance industry. i am a hedge fund manager. and it is certainly true that homeowners more broadly have also benefited from government largessse. but in the case of manhattan, the huge giveaways to finance are a major prop to real estate, and i think that's the biggest factor that's prevented prices from collapsing even more dramatically..

agree happyrenter, in a bloated sector like finance where there should have been much more layoffs if more institutions would have been allowed to fail as they should have imho... the RE in NYC greatly benefited from avoiding a big dumping.

2628 Broadway (Ariel East) "B" line, floors 23-27. Small 3BR/2BA. Listed as 1,628 ft²; interior space is probably around 1,400. #23B closed 9/30 for 1.625MM, down 23-29% from peak comps a few floors up.
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | ---------- Previous Listings ----------
*CONTRACT* #25B .......................... | $1,975,000 3 beds 1,628 ft²
09/30/2009 #23B $1,625,000 -15.6% | $1,925,000 Sold 3 beds 2 baths 1,628 ft²
07/31/2008 #24B $2,000,000 - 9.3% | $2,205,000 Sold 2.5 beds 2 baths 1,628 ft²
01/04/2008 #27B $2,250,000 ......... |
12/19/2007 #26B $2,100,000 ......... |
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/94511-condo-2628-broadway-upper-west-side-new-york

291 Central Park West "W" line. Odd condo carved from Dwight School. Down 25% from early 2006 comp two floors higher. I saw #5W; condition was OK, though the kitchen and baths needed some updates. I don't think elevation matters that much, because the view from here is the St. Urban, not the Park.
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | ---------- Previous Listings ----------
* ACTIVE * #4W .......................... |↓ $3,100,000 4 beds 1,858 ft²
10/07/2009 #5W $2,250,000 + 2.3% |↓ $2,200,000 Sold 3 beds 2 baths 1,800 ft²
05/11/2006 #7W $3,000,000 ......... | 1,838 ft²

w81. Those 291 CPW and Ariel sales are interesting bookends from a "neighbor undercutting my price perspective." On CPW, the 4W owner(s) is/are claiming a mint renovation, so there is at least a discussion of how far they can hope to price above the 5W estate sale. In a 2 year old building (Ariel) and at a similar elevation, there is just no place for 25B and its $2mm asking price to hide.

I was interested in the 291 CPW apartment 5W that just closed, but couldn't get myself to make a bid. The location, space and layout of the unit are quite good, except maybe for the narrow LR. And the listing certainly seemed noteworthy given the direct competition underneath. As discussed on this thread and others, the estate (?) sale of 5W is now the official comp, so there can't be that much pricing room above that floor that 4W can reach for.

200 Riverside Boulevard (Trump Place 200) Tower "C" line: west/north-facing 2BR/2.5BA with great views. #27C closed last week at a 2004 price. August contract. Like Mendel's fruit flies, the transactions in this line are sufficiently numerous to illustrate evolution in action - in this case, the evolution of the bubble.
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | ---------- Previous Listings ----------
10/08/2009 #27C $1,375,000 - 8.0% |↓ $1,495,000 2 beds 2.5 baths 1,397 ft²
08/31/2009 #30C $1,600,000 -13.5% |↓ $1,850,000 2 beds 2.5 baths 1,397 ft²
05/20/2008 #22C $1,850,000 - 5.1% | . $1,950,000 2 beds 2.5 baths 1,397 ft²
11/04/2004 #34C $1,700,000 .......... |
07/14/2004 #22C $1,450,000 .......... |
04/16/2004 #31C $1,335,000 .......... |
02/23/2004 #24C $1,250,000 .......... |
07/02/2003 #28C $1,313,000 .......... |
06/24/2003 #27C $1,250,000 .......... |
03/11/2002 #25C $1,195,000 .......... |
07/13/2001 #32C $1,275,000 .......... |
02/01/2001 #27C $1,182,500 .......... |
12/21/2000 #26C $1,070,000 .......... |
12/14/2000 #30C $1,155,000 .......... |
10/26/2000 #31C $1,165,000 .......... |
09/28/2000 #29C $1,145,000 .......... |
08/17/2000 #28C $1,135,000 .......... |
06/23/2000 #33C $1,085,000 .......... |
06/23/2000 #25C $1,005,000 .......... |
06/21/2000 #23C $...985,000 .......... |
06/08/2000 #27C $1,000,000 .......... |
04/11/2000 #32C $1,050,000 .......... |
04/06/2000 #34C $1,045,000 .......... |
12/15/1999 #26C $...990,000 .......... |
09/22/1999 #24C $...970,000 .......... |
07/20/1999 #22C $...967,500 .......... |

15 West 81st Street "H" line: 2BR/2BA facing north over 82nd Street, not AMNH. #5H is an estate sale at what appears to be a 2004 price. May have simply been priced off the sale of #7H, so the absence of a Q3 "bounce" might not mean much.
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | ---------- Previous Listings ----------
10/13/2009 #5H $1,320,000 .......... |
04/06/2009 #7H $1,382,500 -7.5% |↓ $1,495,000 2 beds 2 baths
04/26/2007 #4H $1,750,000 -2.0% | . $1,785,000 2 beds 2 baths
11/17/2005 #8H $1,612,500 .......... |
01/07/2005 #3H $1,460,000 .......... |
10/06/2004 #8H $1,395,000 .......... |

West81st, great examples. Thanks for all the work calculating those <2003 numbers from the deeds. And all aligned!

NWT: You and I may be the only people on Earth with a keyboard macro for "/.004"

W81: Why hasn't SE listed the sale price for 11 W 81 #3B yet -- it is listed as out of contract and sold but no price.

apt23: The contract price was $925K. The ACRIS posting delay might be related to a dispute between Halstead and the seller over an unpaid commission.
http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/ViewImage?Doc_ID=2009092500285001

Good find. Lots of interesting stuff there.

I just noticed something unusual about the "H" line sequence at 15 West 81st.
Compare the January 2005 sellers of #3H:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/26402
With the 2009 buyers of #5H:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/924716
When they sold #3H - to their neighbors in #3G - they apparently traded up to #5G (which Corcoran sold in January 2005, although I can't find the sale on Streeteasy or ACRIS). Then, when #5H became available this year, they bought it from the estate to do the same combination their third-floor neighbors had done in 2005.

Therre's nothing unusual about people trading up or doing combinations to remain in an outstanding coop as their families grow. You just don't usually see a seller in a line become a buyer in the same line years later.

I think it says a lot for the quality of the building.

GH is an easy combo. I don't think that the building is that special, but it has always commanded very high prices. North-facing 6 room on a low floor went for mid-2m back in early '06.

302 West 86st Street "B" line. Quirky seven with one bedroom in front and two in the rear.
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | ---------- Previous Listings ----------
NEW LISTING #11B .......................... | . $2,445,000 3 beds
07/10/2008 #10B $2,550,000 +0.0% |↓ $2,550,000 Sold 2 beds 3 baths
12/19/2007 # 3B $2,500,000 -10.7% | $2,800,000 2,100 ft²
10/25/2007 # 4B $2,300,000 + 0.0% | . $2,300,000 3 beds 2 baths 2,000 ft²
09/14/2004 # 8B $2,350,000 ......... |
07/23/2003 #10B $1,540,000 -6.0% | . $1.638,000
There isn't much to see here, until you compare the truncated floorplan of #10B...
http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/83/2616683.jpg
... to the original "B" line:
http://www.corcoran.com/property/FloorPlan.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1873588
Share counts and maintenance confirm the loss of a bedroom.

780 West End #3D: Same-unit resale of a five-room prewar condo, 4.4% below 2004 basis and 24.9% below peak comp one floor down. September contract.
10/15/2009 #3D ... $874,500 -12.1% | ↓ . $995,000 Sold 2 beds 1.5 baths
07/18/2007 #2D $1,165,000 + 0.0% | $1,165,000 Sold 2 beds 1.5 baths 1,165 ft²
09/08/2004 #3D ... $915,000 .......... |
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/377695-condo-780-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

333 Central Park West (Turin) "6" line: A viewless, sloppily-renovated nine provides some vindication for those who predicted a 50% drop from peak.
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | ---------- Previous Listings ----------
10/14/2009 #56 $2,350,000 - 5.8% |↓ $2,495,000 4 beds 3 baths
02/13/2008 #36 $4,650,000 - 5.1% |↓ $4,900,000 4 beds 3 baths
08/02/2007 #76 $3,800,000 - 1.9% | . $3,875,000 4 beds 2.5 baths
#36 went to contract on Halloween 2007, exactly at the top of the market. #36 was more nicely finished than #56; but #56 clears the adjacent school sufficiently to overlook the rooftop play area. IIRC, of the twenty windows in #36, eighteen face walls.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/333-central-park-west-manhattan

Apt23: The tax filing is in for 11 West 81st #3B, confirming the sale price of $925K. That's 15.9% below the 2006 basis, which may help explain the difficulty Halstead encountered in attempting to collect their commission (see discussion above).
11/02/2005 Previously Listed in StreetEasy, but no longer available, by Corcoran at $1,150,000.
06/29/2006 Previous Sale recorded for $1,100,000.
03/18/2009 Previously Listed in StreetEasy by Bellmarc at $1,326,000.
03/26/2009 Bellmarc Listing is no longer available.
03/28/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Halstead Property at $1,190,000.
05/16/2009 Price decreased by 16% to $999,000.
06/19/2009 Price decreased by 2% to $975,000.
08/01/2009 Listing entered contract.
10/05/2009 Sale recorded for $925,000.

This is for West 81st. I'm not familiar with the building but in the 302 West 86th apt its interesting to see that even with the market run up between 2004 and 2007 the B line apts did not even appreciate that much in price even correcting for lower floor. Do you think that the 8B sale was an outlier, and even wildly high for 2004?

166 west 76th #5D (aka #5DE): Same-unit resale of a renovated, front-facing 2BR/2BA coop, 14% below 2005 basis.
08/02/2005 Listed at $1,150,000
10/13/2005 Listing entered contract
12/09/2005 Previous sale recorded for $1,079,000
09/30/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Halstead Property at $1,275,000.
11/06/2008 Delisted temporarily.
12/03/2008 Re-listed by Halstead Property.
12/03/2008 Price decreased by 14% to $1,099,000.
01/06/2009 Price decreased by 9% to $995,000.
05/08/2009 Listing entered contract.
10/02/2009 Sale recorded for $927,000.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/166-west-76-street-manhattan

Skippy: Without any listing data for #8B, it's not possible to know whether it had an extra room, or an exceptional renovation, or some other distinguishing characteristic. #4B was a wreck, if that helps. And, as noted above, #10B was short a bedroom.

771 WEA "A" line: Corner classic seven line that has seen heavy competition the past year.
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | ---------- Previous Listings ----------
* ACTIVE * # 7A ...................... |↓ $2,200,000 3 beds 2 baths 2,100 ft²
* ACTIVE * #12A ...................... | . $2,100,000 3 beds 2,100 ft²
10/13/2009 # 5A $1,862,500 - 6.6% |↓ $1,995,000 Sold 3 beds 3 baths 2,000 ft²
12/09/2008 #12A $2,300,000 -11.5% | . $2,600,000 Sold 3 beds 3 baths 2,000 ft²
07/11/2006 # 3A $2,600,000 - 1.9% | . $2,650,000 Sold 4 beds 2.5 baths
#3A was freshly renovated. #12A was a wreck in December - and basically still is, despite some wiring upgrades. #5A and #7A are in good condition. #7A recently fell out of contract.

215 West 78th Street - "B" line

10/14/2009 #9B $1,325,000 $1,495,000
06/09/2005 #6B $1,650,000 -
07/12/2004 #7B $1,455,000

West81st, any idea what 771 WEA, Apt. 7A was in contract for and/or why it fell out of contract?

235 West End Avenue #9H: Same-unit resale of a small, oddly-shaped 2BR/2BA pre-war condo, 5.8% below January 2005 closing. Timing of renovations is not clear.
08/01/2004 Listed with Halstead Property Westside at $929K.
11/21/2004 Listing entered contract.
01/18/2005 Previous Sale recorded for $929,000.
07/16/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $1,150,000.
10/02/2008 Price decreased by 2% to $1,125,000.
11/13/2008 Price decreased by 3% to $1,095,000.
01/27/2009 Price decreased by 5% to $1,045,000.
02/12/2009 Price decreased by 4% to $999,000.
05/15/2009 Price decreased by 5% to $949,000.
07/07/2009 Listing entered contract.
08/12/2009 Re-listed by Prudential Elliman.
09/24/2009 Listing entered contract.
10/26/2009 Sale recorded for $875,000.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/319836-condo-235-west-end-avenue-lincoln-square-new-york

jojo10: Sorry I didn't see your question earlier re. #7A at 771 WEA. I should qualify my statement about #7A falling out of contract: a contract went out in September; I'm not sure it was ever signed. Susan N. ia one of the nicer brokers around, and she runs open houses frequently, so pop in and chat her up if you want the scoop. She also knows every brick in that building.

211 Central Park West (Beresford) "J" line: Large, north-facing classic six.
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | ---------- Previous Listings ----------
** ACTIVE ** # 5J ........................ |↓ $3,275,000 2 beds 2 baths 2,300 ft²
** ACTIVE ** # 8J ........................ |↓ $3,150,000 2 beds 3 baths
10/27/2009 #15J $3,060,000 + 2.2% | . $2,995,000 Sold 2 beds 2.5 baths
01/29/2008 # 9J $3,900,000 - 2.5% | . $4,000,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 2,400 ft²
06/04/2007 # 9J $3,325,000 +11.0% | . $2,995,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 2,300 ft²
11/29/2004 #16J $2,925,000 + 0.0% | . $2,925,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 2,300 ft²

IMO, #15J is the best of these apartments. The living room on 15 and 16 is slightly narrower than on lower floors; the payoff is much more light and, in #15J, a small west-facing terrace.

The per-share price drop from peak is 31.7% ($9701 for #9J vs. $6623 for #15J). Part of that difference reflects condition, although the only remarkable thing about the pre-flip renovation of #9J in 2007 appears to have been the miraculous addition of a hundred square feet.

West81st, right about 15J. That little terrace saves it, not that anything there needs much saving.

The listing history is what we like to see, too: price it to move and get more than asking.

15J was a very sweet apartment. I forwarded to a few friends who were looking for a "view" 6.

300 West End Avenue #5A/B: The famed Belafonte spread is no more. The 2006 buyers suffered a 33% drop in value, plus transaction costs and the additional expense and aggravation of separating the apartments. Luckily, they can afford it.
--------- Recorded Sales --------- | --------- Previous Listings ---------
10/31/2009 #5AB .............................. |↓ $11,750,000 6 beds 6 baths 7,200 ft²
10/29/2009 # 5A $3,750,000 -31.5% |↓ $5,475,000 4 beds 4.5 baths
10/26/2009 # 5B $3,450,000 -37.0% |↓ $5,475,000 4 beds 3.5 baths 3,800 ft²
10/31/2006 #5AB .............................. |↓ $11,750,000 6 beds 6 baths 7,200 ft²
10/23/2006 # 5B $5,562,500 - 8.8% | . $6,100,000 3 beds 3.5 baths 3,800 ft²
10/23/2006 # 5A $5,187,500 - 8.2% | . $5,650,000 3 beds 3.5 baths 3,600 ft²
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/300-west-end-avenue-manhattan
For what it's worth, #5B seems like a really nice buy, even without the provenance.

You beat to me to posting about 300WEA. So Tina Fey got pretty much the same deal.

10023: Yes, pretty much the same deal. Of those three listings on 4 and 5, I liked #5B best. They all needed an overhaul, and I think #5B will be the most spectacular when it's done. Besides, the faint echo of DAY-O! has to count for something. Admittedly, the "A" line might be a bit more practical for family living.

Here's the skinny on that 300 WEA sale...
http://therealdeal.com/newyork/
Looks like someone's gonna have to rise the price of mouse ears...
What can we say, DAY-O, DAY-O big sale comes and I've got to go home..........

But the B-line only has 3 rooms worth of WEA exposure, no? And all the other windows face internal courtyards - doesn't it make the apt very dark.

nyc10023: Valid point, though on low floors, I'm not sure facing 74th Street is much better. More light, but also more noise.

falcogold1: I think this was a case where the broker babble was right on target. Didn't Curbed nail the numbers a few months ago?

It's a quandary.

The A has that long line of south-facing rooms, with corner LR, but you enter said LR in a corner, too.

The B, OTOH, has a better flow from foyer to LR, and if you put in doors from LR to library balancing those to the DR, all three rooms would make quite a grand suite.

Somewhere above someone said Fairway's truck noise cancelled out the A line's exposure advantage, but I'm not buying that.

The A line people probably do find it noisy, as on the first floor (and I think some above) they've put in double windows. I've been trying to see signs of work in Tina Fey's 4A, but can't tell from the street.

Hey NWT/neighbor/fellow stalker - yep, I usually walk up WEA to Fairway and I always look up at 4A. No signs of action going on whatsover. Her current apt was bought completely renovated, mint condition and I haven't seen it on the market yet. So she's probably planning her own renovations. All in good time.

A lot of Fairway trucks unload on Broadway as opposed to W74th, go figure. I think that truck noise is probably not bad at all on the higher floors. I really don't like the B internal-courtyard layout, esp. since Fway building is not landmarked or view-protected (though I bet they have a very, very long lease).

Anyone else notice that 67 RSD went into contract very quickly at 2.2m?

In re: Fairway building - I am pretty certain - from anecdotal evidence only, I have no direct knowledge of this - that they (I think one of their names is Dave, I don't know them at all) are owners of the building, not tenants. And that when the RE market was go go go go and never going to stop they were approached with an awfully high offer from someone who wanted to build on the site, and they refused to even entertain the notion. So I don't think Fairway is going anywhere any time soon.

The Glickbergs own the northerly (the one with the checkouts) of the two Fairway buildings. The Beekman Estate owns the main building at the corner. The lease to the Glickbergs runs to 2039. If the Beekman Estate redevelops the corner land, the Glickbergs get to lease any new building's first and second floors. The memorandum of lease is at http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/Detail?Doc_ID=2007020200339009.

So, looks as if Fairway will be there for a while.

Are the Glickbergs also the operators of Fairway? Or was I misinformed - as I said I only think one of their names is Dave, which sounds like it could come before Glickberg . . . ?

Yes, the Glickbergs own Fairway - pics of 4 gens prominently displayed in stairwell. I don't know if they are the sole owners.

Beekman estate also owns the two dilapidated THs next to Fairway - I don't think they are landmarked, be a shame if they were demolished. They are unusual-looking.

There was a story in the paper the other day about the Glickbergs and the additional Fairways they've opened. Also some history in that cookbook they're selling.

nyc10023, did you get a chance to see 9A at 67RSD? Going by the plan at http://www.corcoran.com/images/media/ListingFloorplans/1879163.1.gif it looks good for a couple wanting lots of space, a separate study, but no real second bedroom. I guess a couple of kids could go in bunk beds in the maid's room. Looks as if there's great wood under all that paint in the dining room.

Yes, I saw it - didn't you see my little love paean to the apt on SE? I wanted it, and I also want the rear-facing 2 br so that I could recreate the original 10rm apt. If you were able to recreate the original layout, the problems with the layout of 9A would disappear (the original brs are all in the rear apt). There is very nice woodwork underneath, but I would find all the brown wood oppressive - so horrors I wouldn't mind it painted. 10ft+ ceilings, no signs of water damage on ceilings, doors have been replaced, but they kept the transoms. Renovation was okay, certainly move-in.

I said I would not be surprised to see it go for close to ask.

Yes, 67 Riverside was in good shape. The thing I like least about it was the small 3rd BR and the entry foyer that looked very 'temporary' (and I understand the trend in the building is to re-unify the original layouts. The view was also quite nice.

Anyone have any insights on the the classic 7 in the 'Crumbs' building (161 W 75, #12A). That apt was a wreck, but it had a layout that could be improved with a bit of work. Streeteasy doesn't reflect that fact that the broker/sponsor's website indicates "offer accepted".

NYO article Re: 300 WEA

Walt Disney's Grandniece Finally Sells West End Co-ops, But Loses Millions

http://www.observer.com/2009/real-estate/walt-disneys-neice-sells-co-ops-not-lot#

Walter: I went to the 2nd OH for 161W75. I was surprised at the good turnout given the price point, condition, and location/building (B building, B+ location, but good light & open views). If say, an offer was accepted at 2.2m, and you put in 200k of work to redo bathrooms, kitchen (nice original features though, shame to lose completely), minor reconfiguration (if possible, I would flip kitchen & maid's) - that's close to 2.5m for a smallish Classic 7, not that much off the highs for a C7 on UWS.

However, all C7s on the UWS are not fungible. If your target area is the 60s, 70s (87/199) zone, with a northern border of say, 81st St and you don't want to be on WEA or RSD (i.e. prefer to be closer to CP), there is a real paucity of C7s if your budget doesn't extend to CPW. In fact, I know all the rental & non-rental prewar buildings between 62nd & 81st, and there aren't that many buildings with C7s east of WEA.

I have a great deal of knowledge of 300 West End.

The best apartments in the building are the high floor B-line apartments, followed by the high floor A-line apartments, followed by low floor A-line, followed by low floor B-line. The B-line apartments are larger and have a significantly superior internal flow (very obvious in the units; less obvious from the floorplans). They have a quite wonderful layout with a bedroom wing and an office/den wing. They also provide the option for a very gracious 3 room enfilade facing West End Avenue. On high floors, the back half of the apartment is quiet and beautiful with open city views.

The high floor A_line apartments do not have quite the same elegant layouts, but they do have the corner living room.

The low floor B-line apartments are quite dark--the only open exposure is the 3 rooms facing west end. the rest of the apartment faces dark internal areas. The low floor A-line is better, facing 74th street. But it's not a great exposure, and the noise from Fairway deliveries is pretty bad, especially in the very early morning hours.

These are significant sales--300 West End is a dream building for a family who wants significant space, a prime location, a top building, but doesn't want a fancy or high-profile address. it is just about as good as it gets for coop living in NYC.

nyc10023....I agree with your line of thought. I too would flip the kitchen and maids. The scarcity/location dynamic is a good call. I see that 7A went for 2.150k (and I have no idea about condition of that unit) at the height and this may actually go higher! The sponsor, who still controls about 18% of the building, must be busting at the seams to get their shares into the free market. The mtc is no bargain for the services either. (wait list for storage and no bike rm)

re: 300 WEA - I think the sale that will be significant is the current listing of 13B for $5,250,000. My reason for saying this - and I would think patient09 and perhaps aboutready or some other frequent posters here might coroborate - is that the inventory on the UWS for large pre-war apartmets is absolutely as low as I can ever remember seeing it. And I am not just talking about "my" price range. Just for fun I look at what's listed for 6 or 7 or even 8 million dollars - and there is really very little out there, let alone at the level I think a family apartment ought to cost.

While I agreee that the Disney sales are interesting data points, I fear that they will remain staistical outliers as sellers are just not putting inventory on the market at these levels, and the rally in the stock market since these apartments sold, is beginning to be considerable.

LP: I haven't crunched the numbers, but I thought the inventory was very high earlier this year (Jan/Feb), esp. so. of 86th, highest than I've seen in 5yrs. Definitely decreased since then. As for 13B, I don't see how could not feel a chump if one paid anywhere close to ask, given the 4A/5A/5B closings.

For fun, perhaps NWT could put together a list of all prewar buildings so. of 96th with numbers of apts, and sizes :0

lp, the uws is not my area. but it would be interesting to take that hypothetical list of prewar buildings, pull each one up, and see how many units were on the market but didn't sell. that might be at least part of your answer regarding inventory, and if it were a fairly high number, i'd suggest that things might get more interesting again early next year.

nyc10023 - re: 161 west 75th - broker's website says "offer accepted"

Based on traffic at OHs, buzz at OHs and number of OHs, I'm not surprised.

You can count the number of non-CPW, non-WEA, non-RSD, non-rental buildings so. of 81st with C7s on 2 hands.

nyc10023, I wish the OCD could kick in on demand. It's more like, "hmmm, here's a pointless project by which I can delay going in to work this morning...."