Reasonable prices on lower fifth?

JohnDoe

A couple of comments as I know the area very well.

First, 51 is sort of lower-tier among the great lower 5th buildings. If we are just talking about buildings on the avenue I'd say the top tier is 40 5th and 1 5th, second tier 39, 33, 30, 41. I am leaving a few out, but you get my point. The layouts at 51 are often a bit strange, and both the northern and southern exposures are quite limited.

This apartment faces south into another building. There is some open space between them over the roof of the Salmagundi Club, but it is not a wonderful view. Since it is the 14th floor it is somewhat open--I'd say this is a much better apartment than the 8A comp. But the exposure still isn't perfect by any stretch.

But I think you will understand the asking price when you look at 39 5th, where a truly exceptional 1 bedroom with glorious views, a perfect renovation, bigger rooms, and in a better building is asking $999. That is nearly 30% off the peak comps for that building. 51 5th Avenue 14E just can't compete with that apartment, and I'd actually say a 200k differential, rather than the current 160k, would be expected.

Also, FWIW, 12 St isn't 11, isn't 10, isn't 9. It is the northern boundry of the outstanding central Village island known as the Gold Coast. Even in this prime of prime neighborhoods, prices have started sliding a little so keep your eye out now more than ever if you are looking in the area.

Junior-four layouts are extremely difficult to come by in this area because most buildings are prewar when such layouts were not in vogue. The dining area is rather small here, but all in all I would take a look anyway keeping in mind what happyrenter said which I agree with.

I would also suggest you take a look at 30 Fifth where a few apartments are now available from VERY motivated sellers. The location is superb (across from church, on perhaps prettiest block in NYC, heart of Gold Coast) and the building is super solid with much lower maintenance than any of the other prewar coops within 2 blocks. The board requires outstanding financials, though.

If you want to keep your eye peeled for other relative bargains on junior fours in the area, flag 30 East 9th Street as a building to watch. That 1950's 6-story building has some terrific values and nice layouts with good views. For example, pretty much the exact same junior-four layout can be found in 30 East 9th and the Brevoort East at 20 East 9th. The difference? About $300,000. If you are willing to give up the more upscale lobby and appearance of the Brevoort East (which is kind of stuffy and old lady like overall), you can save a quarter million dollars by taking 50 steps across University and buying at 30 E 9th.

Finally, some of the prewars on the Gold Coast are better in theory than practice. One, for instance, has 4 apts per floor that are services only by a manned single elevator and the layouts include wasted space and odd configurations for how we live today. Others have toilets in the kitchen which is kind of disgusting by today's way of living but were quite commoon prewar and for the staff. After looking at units in nearly every building down here over the last 2 years, I chose a 1950s building because the layouts were more to my liking. I do miss higher ceilings of prewars though and the old world feel of the lobbies.

I sold a 1 bedroom (b-line) at 45 5th facing the church at the end of 2007 for $785k with a mnt. of about $700. I like 51 5th ave but I think the mnt. is a bit high and I don't consider this a jr.4(as OP does) which to me implies a possible conversion to a 2nd bedroom or office this more like a dining "area".

This might be a helpful comp in Stewart House (70 East 10th, a prestigious, no-dog co-op) at $795K. According to the Halstead agent, it is back in contract again and they are waiting to take that potential buyer through the board.

http://www.halstead.com/detail.aspx?id=1026765

ali r.
{downtown broker}

The apt Ali points out in the Stewart House is indeed nice layout. Full renovation of an apartment this size done well (not cutting corners or Idea kitchen) will cost $120K give or take plus appliances plus architect fees plus filing and permit fees--figure $160K minimum to be safe if, as the description says, it is in poor condition. You'll probably need to gut the kitchen & bath, replace the floors, replace all mouldings and doors and hardware, do the closets, upgrade the electric/lighting/wiring for CAT6&cable, etc. That would make it just shy of a million dollar apartment when all is said and done. And don't forget it'll take about 7 months from when you close to when youcould move in so factor in whatever it'll cost to live somewhere else in the meantime.

Personally I don't think the building--a white brick monstrosity--is "prestigious" by any stretch, but it is a good building with risk well spread among the zillion units in it; it is a 5 minute walk to Wash Sq Park. The real compromise here is that you give up charm (there is none) in this building, but you will gain a customized "new" apt for under a million with that very nice entry area I haven't seen in junior-fours in other area buildings. Compared to current comps, this one is a good buy for someone who want to undertake the renovation and not live with someone else's taste choices or aging updates.

Personally I'd take less space in a more charming building or in one no further east than University Pl. --this one is on the eastern fringe of the Central Village and not really "prime" at all in terms of location--it is an okay location...not Gold Coast. I would stick closer to University to 6th Ave from 8th St to 12th St if you could afford it. But that's just personal taste. If you can afford and stomach a full renovation, this is a unit to consider.

oh, Kylewest that's some hating on the 1960s. Having lived in the John Adams (101 W. 12th) I lurve those 50s/60s white bricks -- they are full of closets and other features that are very liveable.

Also, how can you not find it charming that the wallpaper in Stewart is (or at least used to be) of Stewart House?

However, the main reason I gave it as a comp was that it is in a 40% down building, and it is, according to the agent, gone. I was figuring $100K for the renovation, but if we go with your higher number, you'd be at $950k all in.

$840K for 51 Fifth -- you get slightly less space and pay a higher maintenance at a more glamorous address where you don't have to do the renovations. In my mind that's a pretty fair set of tradeoffs, so by the standards of the Stewart House list (bear in mind we don't know what the contract number is) 51 Fifth is fairly priced and it should sell at that number -- but I don't know if I'd call it a "steal."

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Agreed. (and don't get me wrong... I love late 50s/early 60's style generally --except white brick and low ceilings and true: layouts much better than older 1 bedrm apts)

kylewest and ali,

this little post-war lovefest is a bit much, no? i mean, stewart house, brevoort, 2 fifth, john adams and their ilk are fine, but you think those one bedrooms are superior in any way to the one bedrooms in 39 5th, 30 5th, 1 5th or 33 5th (or many other prewar elevator buildings in the area)? that's just craziness. the only postwar in the village that can compare favorably with the great prewar buildings is 37 west 12th, and even there, IMHO, the apartments do not quite measure up.

a few misconceptiosn:

1. i have never in my life seen an apartment in a nice prewar building with a toilet in the kitchen. i assume you are referring to a separate room with a toilet entered through the kitchen. that's entirely different, and it is always as an extra toilet, not the primary bathroom. and it is easy enough to eliminate if you want to.

2. the layouts in prewar apartments are not worse than in postwar apartments. there are some prewar one bedrooms with fantastic layouts (39 5th,1 5th, etc.) and some that are less desirable. the same is true for postwar apartments.

3. there is a limited stock of prewar apartments. post-war apartments are still being constructed. supply and demand, you do the math.

Happyrenter, I honestly think you are wrong. I've lived in a 30 Fifth one bedroom. It was a life of major compromises. I think the one bedroom apts at 30 Fifth are small (about 600 sq/ft), the pullman kitchens ridiculous for normal living (ok for a single who eats alone or out but doesn't really cook), and the size of the bedroom is out of whack for the size of the living rooms. The larger one bedrooms with real kitchens and dining nook sell in recent years for well in excess of $1MM, so I'm only speaking of the smaller one bedrooms there which sell for $800-$1MM in recent years. In both lines, though, useless huge fire exit doors interrupt walls in the apartments and interfere with any contemplated reconfigurations (see unsolvable problem of joining 7G/H which have been on market for months now).

And I've seen the one bedrooms in virtually every other Fifth Ave building from 8th St to 12th St. The layouts absolutely do not compare to 20 East 9th, 30 East 9th, many at 11 Fifth, and 2 Fifth or other the white brick buildings. This is not to say the lower Fifth prewars aren't great--they are. The ceiling heights are better in the prewars. And the overall ambiance of the lobbies and feeling of an older, more genteel world are missing in the 1950s and 1960s building. The extra 1/2 bath in the kitchen is nice I guess if you can get over the gross idea of people pooping behind a door in your kitchen pantry. Many also have entry "galleries" which are essentially completely wasted sq. footage that you can't make functional. They look great but you pay a great deal for useless space. Closets are adequate but not special. The second entry most have through the kitchen is useless and makes the kitchens very hard to configure. Many also have enormous useless doors in the middle of rooms that lead to fire stairs and interrupt flow and furniture arrangements.

What the post-war buildings in the central village offer (the better ones at least) are bedrooms well apart from living areas, nice sized designated dining areas, enough room to set up a desk and work area, and real kitchens that were not after thoughts.

I think there are good arguments for both the pre and post wars in the area. The answer is not easy. Having to choose between what you get at 30 Fifth in a 600-650 sq/ft one bedroom @ $900,000 or what you get at a post war a block away closer to University with 950-1000 sq/ft @ $900,000 is not so easy for a lot of people looking at the area. I think you overstate things about the prewars.

P.S. Ironically, one of the nicest prewars is still a rental building at 20 Fifth with step-down living rooms, old fashioned bay windows overlooking Fifth with views of the arch in the park, high ceilings, many closets, decent galley kitchens, and windows in kitchen and bath. If renting at the top end is for you instead of buying, this is a fantastic building to consider--also no fee. Contact Sol Goldman Investment Co directly for availability. And no, I have nothing to do with the company. I just know the building--and others in the area--very well.

Kylewest, I really had to chuckle when I read your comment about 12th street (is not 11th, is not 10th, etc.). West 12th is widely considered the quintessential greenwich village street from 5th to the Hudson. Even on the gold coast block, from Meryl Streep's gorgeous former townhouse (which I think is back on the market) to Butterfield House, to 59 West 12th - it's all good. Plus, you are so close to Joe Jr.'s! If prices are slipping, it's not due to its northern boundry locale - they are slipping everywhere. I would much prefer to live on 12th than 9th - I don't think the streets get nicer as you go south - 8th is kind of gross...

I remember being chastised for calling 5th ave above 14th street a completely different neighborhood - now we are drawing the line at 12th!

Agreed about One Fifth, though - odd layouts as a former hotel. There is a gorgeous tower apt available there now, though. Tremendous views. Also, 20 Fifth does have great rentals - those 1 -bedrooms are fantastic.

kylewest,

i'm just somewhat confused by your post. entry galleries are wasted space? back entrances from the kitchen are useless? we must have very different conceptions of a well-laid-out apartment. if you are going to compare apples and oranges--that is, a 650 square foot apartment to a 1000 square foot apartment--then i am sure you are right that the layout of a one bedroom could be better in a postwar building at that size. i didn't realize this was a discussion about where in the city to get the most bang for your buck. presumably you can get a lot more bang for a lot less buck in places far from lower 5th avenue. but if we are simply talking about where the nicest village one bedrooms are located, i think it is just silly to say they are at 20 or 30 east 9th. any apartment where you can reach up at touch the ceiling is just not that great.

Again, I think you exaggerate and misstate what I said. About 30 Fifth, my point was that the one bedrooms simply are not fabulous. They are nice. But that's all. Plus prewar details. Layouts not good. And back entries are not nice if it means you only get 3 feet of counter space as you do at some one bedrooms on the east side of Fifth Ave on the Gold Coast.

As for 12 St., yes, I agree it is fantastic, but I don't like 13th street which means you can only walk south of 12 or the neighborhood turns a touch ickier. 8th St isn't fab, but the park is on 7th and you have to cross 8th to get there!

I just wish you'd all stop using the ridiculous term "Gold Coast" for a tiny little landlocked dollop of the Village. How about "Prime GV"?

I always thought the gold coast was some place on the North Shore of Long Island

No, I like Gold Coast. Prime GV is ever so slightly larger than the Gold Coast!

I don't think Lower Fifth (better name?) is better called "Prime GV"...what would that make Barrow and Commerce? Or the other great west village little streets. It's all pretty prime when you get right down to it though, isn't it? I actually walked home from the movies past Stewart House tonight and just noticed it more after this thread. It is a nicely kept building. I still don't like the bulk or white bricks or upper east side look of the lobby and driveway, but there are plenty of cool places around it on 2nd and 3rd Aves and the vibe is good in the 'hood. I gotta go east more!

Gold Coast is the north shore of LI, the west bank of the Hudson River opposite Manhattan, the west coast of Africa (now Ghana), an insignificant blip in the middlewest, and (according to brokers only), the part of the Upper East Side that used to be distinguished from its working-class neighbors by the name "Upper East Side". Probably lots of other places adjoining bodies of water, too.

The Wikipedia has lots of them, but not GV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_coast

So I went to see this apartment - nice place, definitely move-in condition. It's a touch on the small side for my tastes - agree with burkhardt that it's not really a jr. 4. - more like a 1BR with an extra space between living room and kitchen. The place is in great condition - beautiful fireplace, kitchen and bathroom. Nice closet space, large bedroom. The OH also seemed to be generating a fair bit of traffic. The building itself felt a little dingy, which I think helps explain the seemingly lower price as compared to other apts on lower fifth. I'm thinking this may still come down a little, but I wouldn't be surprised if it sells within 5-10% of current ask. It seems to be the best priced 1 br for the space on lower fifth right now and an interested buyer could move right in.

The apartment photographs great. Looks very nice. I still prefer to be south of that corner, but it at this price it seems a good place to consider on balance.

I think it's priced pretty well, too. Wonder if it would be possible to remove part of the wall between the living room and kitchen to take better advantage of the window in the dining alcove.

I have also seen the apartment - and agree with JohnDoe that it is in move-in shape. However, there really is no dining area or any area for a desk/ work space. This is a pretty small one bedroom... and would seem to be best suited for a pied a terre.

triplep,

are you a new yorker? this is not a particularly small apartment for one person--plenty of people live in far smaller spaces. i don't see any reason why this is more suited to serving as a pied a terre than hundreds or even thousands of one bedrooms or studios on the market.

that said, i think people are a bit overly enthusiastic about this apartment. i saw it too, and it is certainly nothing special.

happyrenter,

I LOVE prewars. I'm typing this from my apartment in the Parc Vendome (1929-1930) now. Beamed ceilings and moldings, and thick quiet walls, and the air of history -- all great.

However, prewars are at their best when you have the appropriate amount of space for the people living in it. My prewar studio would be a fantastic apartment for one person -- but it's tight for two, since we had to convert a closet into a room which basically leaves us with one closet and one dressing room. Similarly, a Jr. 4 is a great apartment for two people, but the problem is that in expensive Manhattan (or more so, in the pricey neighborhoods of Manhattan one likes), one is always tempted to add one or even two pint-sized people.

If you're on a budget and have to make space compromises, I think it's usually better to be in a postwar because even with one closet-to-room conversion you still probably have three closets left.

Because, you know, I don't much mind looking at my stuff but my husband's stuff annoys me. :>

ali r.
{downtown broker}

happyrenter: lol, yes I am a New Yorker. But I am not one person. And we entertain frequently - so the absence of room for a dining table is a problem for us. Its such a shame that the apartment has a very good kitchen and no table to serve the food! If you were not planning on eating at home or entertaining very often, I think this would be a great apartment. My pied a terre comment comes from my belief that this apartment would be a perfect NYC apartment for my parents, or my husband's parents, or my Godmother, etc....

Ali is dead-on. She speaks of the compromises I tried to convey above about pre-wars. Here, it is a little smaller than other area jr-fours for a couple, bedroom is tad narrow, dining area a couple feet too small, and has no obvious place for a desk/workarea. It isn't really big enough to carve a baby-space out of the dining area (something I hate, but I realize many people have no choice). Still, while it is smaller than jr-fours at the post-wars in the area, on the plus side you do get a fireplace, prewar ambiance, very good (not excellent IMO) location, more interesting layout than a straight one-bedroom with just two rectangular rooms. Maintenance is bearable for the area.

A steal? No. A reasonable starting point for asking price today? Yes.

This is simply not true of pre-wars - it really depends on the building. Take London Terrace with its abundance of 1-bedrooms which have much larger proportions than you standard cookie cutter post-war 1-bedrooms. Or 20 Fifth which kylewest cited before. Or 40-50 East 10th which has truly grand 1-bedrooms with phenomenal layouts. Or a whole plethora of other examples. In fact, the Parc Vendome has large and terrific studios, but any studio, pre or post-war is going to be too small for a couple.

Ali...as a realtor you must come across great deals all the time yet you never opted out of your studio. If I'm being too personal just let this go. thanks

Buster, I don't think you are right here. Compromises abound in the preware (which, again, I love, but am objective enough to see they have flaws). London Terrace has positively awful kitchens in most units that are complete retrofit afterthoughts barely able to fit four burner stoves or two people at once or refrigerators of normal size with door than can be opened 90 degrees. 40-50 East 10th is lovely, but the one bedrooms have that odd toilet room in the kitchen (better than not having it I guess, in fairness) and you pay dearly for the entry gallery into which you much somewhat awkwardly fit a small dining table and desk or the space is just for graciousness and you have to cram the desk and table into the livingroom. Most also have bedroom doors that open directly into living room without any little passage way which I think is less than ideal. 20 Fifth one-bedrooms are great, but since it is rental, there is no point comparing them if you are in the market to buy; in any event, the entry areas in 20 Fifth take up a lot of square footage that like 40-50 E 10th St is pretty unusable and just nice to look at--I'm all for that if money doesn't matter, but personally I'd rather have a little extra space for a work area and designated dining space.

Please do not misinterpret this. These are wonderful buildings. I like them. But to extol them as if they are the end all and be all and hands-down beat the area post-wars in terms of layout is to miss what matters to many buyers. One size does not fit all--even for the well-heeled and more affluent one-bedroom buyers.

Kylewest, there's no such thing as a pre-war flaw!! Just kidding, and point taken - at the end of the day, anyone can find criticism with any apartment. I have a friend with a fab 1-bedroom with a huge living room opening onto a beautiful planted wrap terrace. It is great for entertaining, except guests have to access the only bathroom through the bedroom.

I tend to think the prewar flaws come from old converted hotels or larger grand apartments chopped up to create odd combo units or bizarre layouts (The Albert is a perfect example). I never thought of the extra space at 40-50 East 10th as problematic, but it was designed during a period where maximum efficiency was not a priority. I hear that. One person's character is another person's burden, I suppose!

I'm getting started with the sales process - anyone have some guidance on what boards in this area are looking for? Can safely exclude 40 5th, since 50% down is not an option (35% down will be my limit at my price range), but for buildings like 1 5th, 30 5th, 41 5th, 15 W 11th, etc, what should I be expecting for liquid assets, debt/income, etc? Thanks.

I would start by saying that they'll want enough financial wherewithal that even were you to put 35% down, you could have put 40% down if necessary.

For buildings like One Fifth, 41 Fifth, and 15 West 11th, you should be financially able to buy the unit all in cash, but willing to put down 35% (or whatever they require). If you're not liquid enough to buy all in cash (though it is not a requirement) I would say don't bother.

Thanks. I'll have enough for 50-60% down (depends on purchase price), but I don't want to use that much cash, so capping myself at 35% down. But sounds like some of those buildings will not be possible at this point (although I'll obviously check with a more official source than this forum).