UWS discount to UES (historically)

I always thought the opposite, that the UWS was more desireable because they have 2 subway lines while the UES has the overcrowded Lexington line. I could be wrong as well.

Bugelrex: I think it's impossible to generalize. Even narrower comparisons like CPW vs. Fifth, WEA vs. Park, etc. aren't very useful in practice because buildings and lines have their own unique market behavior.

For what it's worth, I've never understood why coops on West End trade at such a deep discount to similar buildings on Park. But then, I don't understand why anyone drives a Lexus either, when Toyotas are basically the same car.

We already had this thread. The most expensive stuff is the 5th avenue set... BUT, if you leave that out, and talk about "what you can get for the money", East Side is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper.

You can get deals on the East Side 10% below the cheapest on the West Side. Its been this way for at least 10 years.

Just look at the E70s. Always SUPER cheap, in the last 10 years relative to pretty much all of Manhattan.

Of course, I'm leaving out Lincoln Towers, but to me thats just Stuy Town North.

Gold coast of Upper West Side has always been more desirable because (snobbism notwithstanding) of bigger real pre-war apartments, parks, transportation, best in town food shops.

Westelle, so not true Gold Coast on Upper East is more expensive than the West because of schools. Pre-war Park Avenue is much more expensive than comparable apartments on WEst.

uppereast, it's a different kind of expensive. Ms. Astor (east side) is different from Seinfeld and Sting (west side).

Also, Gold Coast people mostly school their offsprings in private establishments.

East side is definitely not significantly cheaper than UWS - whether you leave out 5th or not. West of Lex between the 60s and 80s is going to generally match if not outprice similar apartments on the UWS. NYC - For you not only to contest that but cap "SIGNIFICANTLY" is absurd.

They each have their draws. I'll give the UWS a nod on being more "neighborhoody," having Riverside Park (which beats Carl Schulz), having better restaurants in that meaty mid to upper-mid priced level, and better transportation - but as far as schools, quantity of luxury buildings and buildings with amenities, museums, upscale restaurants, and national prestige generally - I'll give that nod to the UES.

As far as value (between the 60s and 80s):

CPW v. 5th - I would take CPW by a hair
Madison v. Columbus - I'd take Mad
Park v. Amsterdam - I'd take Park
Lex v. Broadway - tie
3rd v. West End - I'd take West End
Anywhere east of 3rd v. Riverside - I'd take Riverside

Just my .02

Westelle, that's exactly my point: Gold Coast people go to private schools, that's why the live on the East side since most schools are there...

Want to gauge the national perception on UES v. UWS - just look at the tv shows/movies based around each:

UES: Jefferson's moved on up, Mr. Drummond's mansion, where Bud Fox rented his apartment when he made it big, where all the Gossip Girls and Real Housewives live, where Miranda Priestly bought her Pradas, where the Vanities had their Bonfire.

UWS: Seinfeld, and a couple of places haunted by a giant stay-puffed marshmallow man and Rosemary's baby.

I like the UWS a lot more then the UES. Just my opinion of course.

I haven't really lived west of Lexington, but I don't think there's much out there. Unless you want to be right next to museums and designer shops that are much too expensive and that I've never heard of. When I lived on the UES, I felt that the central food/shopping/walking hub was: either 2nd ave or 86th street. Outside of those two strips, there wasn't really much out there except Gristede's and Japanese food. And living in Yorkville makes it a REAL hike to Central Park.

On the UWS, I feel like there are so many more hubs: Time Warner Center, Riverside Park, Central Park, Lincoln Center shopping, broadway, Amsterdam/80s for food, etc. Fairway. Plus, an Apple store is coming and there are rumors of Trader Joes/Costco.

As for schools, there are a lot more schools on the UES, but that also makes it exponentially more competitive too.

there are plenty of great schools on the upper west side, both public and private: bank street, ethical, trinity, collegiate are probably the top tier, but also calhoun, columbia prep. neither neighborhood is monolithic so this sort of comparison is very difficult to make.

other than that, clearly the east side is preferable for the museums, but the west side is preferable for performing arts (lincoln center, and easy access to carnegie hall and the theater district). the east side probably has better restaurants (although neither is anything like down town) but the west side has far better food stores. the east side is more segregated and i've always considered it more dangerous, but it also has better shopping (if that matters to you). the east side has better access to the airports, but from the west side it is a lot easier to leave the city by car.

ultimately, i think the fact that the east side is about twice the width as the west side, and has only half the mass transit, is the real kicker. that means that mass transit on the east side is basically 1/4th as convenient for the average resident. the entire stretch from lexington to york is pretty unbearable, whereas the west side is lovely from the park to the river.

The UWS is better than the UES because of the Great Burrito

The Carnegie Hill area of the UES is premium.
After that, its largely a tie b/n UES and UWS.

Qwerty: I think the most expensive buildings on Park are in Lenox Hill, not Carnegie Hill.

Joepa: Lex vs. Broadway is a tie? Let's see... Apthorp, Belnord, Ansonia, Dorilton, Astor Court vs. ummmm... the 92nd Street Y.

Seriously, I think your matchups are too rigidly geographical. Comparing CPW to Fifth makes sense, but Columbus and Amsterdam are the Yorkville of the West Side, not the Madison and Park.

carnegie hill is a pretty sleepy family area, is it not? the most prime parts of the upper east side are south of there. but to say that the rest of the neighborhoods are a wash is a bit off. i mean, the entire upper east side east of lexington is one of the least desirable areas of prime manhattan.

I used to live on Park @ 83, and Upper East doesn't hold a candle to UWS. West side is so much better proportioned, and it's only 5 blocks from one gorgeous park to the other, and the buildings are in proportion to the avenues' width.

Perhaps it is more fair to compare Broadway to Madison and Columbus/Amsterdam to Lex /3rd.

Broadway is no Madison. Broadway is Park.

"On the UWS... an Apple store is coming and there are rumors of Trader Joes/Costco."

That seals the deal for me: If I wanted to live near a Costco, I'd move to Yonkers. I'll take the UES any day over UWS.

Ironic, since living on the UES makes you closer to an existing Costco (as the crow flies).

Um, okay aifamm. I guess if I got out my wind glider, you might have a point.

"I'll take the UES any day over UWS."

I think the UES pretty much sucks unless you have blue hair and go to bed at 10pm.

"the entire stretch from lexington to york is pretty unbearable,"

Obviously pretty individual, plus it varies how high up, but I'd have to disagree with that generalization. I like the feel of 3rd, 2nd and even parts of 1st avenue, and I am pretty sure I am not the only one.

IMO, Broadway isn't Park. West End is Park, without the center median. They are architectural siblings: Candela Boulevard (Park) and Candela Avenue (West End).

Broadway is sui generis. Hsw9001 has a fair point about Madison, another commercial thoroughfare that shares some of vintage Broadway's Beaux Arts sensibility, though on a smaller scale.

They're just different. Each has it's own to offer. A relatively short ride/walk takes us to a completely different neighborhood. One of the many reasons why i luv ny.

Umm ok kas242, maybe if the UWS had a Costco, you would have a point.

"West End is Park, without the center median. They are architectural siblings"

Really? I don't see it. West End seems much more old NY than Park. Park reminds me of a Jersey highway with strip malls on each side. Think about it, add a couple jug handles to Park and BOOM you are in the Garden State.

I prefer the "best" side. Maybe if I had 10x the money, never took public transportation nor walked riverside or central parks, then I would change my mind.

JuiceMan, come to think of it, you are right. I just now realized why Park feels so dour.
West81st, as to Broadway being sui generis, it's an absolutely spectacular one. As sui generises go.

> uppereast, it's a different kind of expensive.

Yes, cheaper.

"On the UWS, I feel like there are so many more hubs: Time Warner Center, Riverside Park, Central Park, Lincoln Center shopping, broadway, Amsterdam/80s for food, etc. Fairway. Plus, an Apple store is coming and there are rumors of Trader Joes/Costco."

And thats why the UWS sorta sucks. Its like Jersey with Malls. You are talking about big box stores... the exact thing UES has worked hard to keep out of UES. Even 86th, which has all of 'em, doesn't have nearly as many. Things like Lincoln Center just take away from the walkability of the UWS. They are just blobs that totally kill the streetscape. UES is just a much better consistently walkable neighborhood. Much better scale for living. If you like things like Time Warner Center, why not just live in midtown?

Second, did you just check that the UWS has "Central Park" over UES? ;-)

I find UES just much more "neighborhoody". more walkable, more breathable, with no mega breakups. UES also just has much more quality housing stock. More "even" if you will. UWS has spots, but they get broken up too much.

"And thats why the UWS sorta sucks. Its like Jersey with Malls. You are talking about big box stores..."

nyc10022, you're right, we've had this discussion before, but the reason the UES (east of Lex) is cheaper than much of the UWS is because most people find it less desirable (esp looking through this thread). Sure there are people like yourself who prefer the UES, but I just think there are fewer of you (which is probably a good thing if you're looking to buy). I wouldn't call Fairway, Zabar's (which is also on the UES), etc box stores. You'll really only find those types of places around Columbus Circle. West 70s, 80s, 90s are much like the UES in terms of retail, though in my opinion, better.

"Sure there are people like yourself who prefer the UES, but I just think there are fewer of you (which is probably a good thing if you're looking to buy)."

Absolutely. The east side is SOOOOOO not desired right now. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "eew, I would never live there".

Its part of why I think there will be some value for the long term once we bottom.

I've made the call here on another thread... in 5 years Madonna or some other retard will move to the Upper East and it will be declared "hot" all over again.... and then people will suddenly "discover" all the stuff that made it the most expensive neighborhood in the city at one time....

To be perfectly honest, I'm HUGELY happy some of these folks said this to me... because these are exactly the folks I don't want to live around.

> I wouldn't call Fairway, Zabar's (which is also on the UES), etc box stores.

Zabar's isn't... eli's is. Its the brother.

When I'm talking big box I mean things like.... 15 CPW HAS A BEST BUY! Its nutty.
I always like walking up from midtown... and UWS is just bad for that. You are forced into the broadway corridor and you just get assaulted. 15cpw is not making that any better.

> You'll really only find those types of places around Columbus Circle.
You've never been to 72nd street and Broadway?
Also, the lousy goes way up into the 60s...

> West 70s, 80s, 90s are much like the UES in terms of retail, though in my opinion, better.

If you like some downscale, I guess. But its pretty tough to argue upscale with Madison.

Also, the food on the UWS.... oh my lord. NYMag actually called it a "restaurant wasteland" recently.

"Absolutely. The east side is SOOOOOO not desired right now. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "eew, I would never live there".

Its part of why I think there will be some value for the long term once we bottom."

I don't follow. Why will people suddenly like it? Because of Madonna (who is no longer really looked at as a trend-setter, so I wouldn't really pick her for this).

"When I'm talking big box I mean things like.... 15 CPW HAS A BEST BUY! Its nutty.
I always like walking up from midtown... and UWS is just bad for that. You are forced into the broadway corridor and you just get assaulted. 15cpw is not making that any better."

15CPW is really Columbus Circle/Lincoln Center area to me. And I totally get what you're saying about the walk from Midtown, but that's not really what we're talking about. Having lived on the UWS, I never felt like it was "assaulting" or overrun with box stores. And 59th St on the east side isn't dramatically different in terms of feel from Columbus Circle. There are tons of big stores there as well. As for retail, yeah Madison is more upscale, but most people can't afford Valentino (or at least not on a regular basis), and I believe I saw a recent article about Madison rents being so high that only jewelers can afford it.

>> UES is just a much better consistently walkable neighborhood.

To each their own. I lived on York for five years and I HATED and CURSED the walk on a daily basis.
Especially in the winter.

As for walking on the UES, as I said before I only walked along 2nd ave and 86th street. There is nothing else except Gristede's, Duane Reade, banks, deli's, diners and Japanese restaurants on 90% of those "charming" streets. I'm fine with that, but it's a trip to get anything other then that. I intentionally omitted Central Park because if you live east of 3rd, you're not going to central park often. Period. It's too much of a hike. I've probably already been to Cpark and RPark more times this year then I have over 4-5 years living in Yorkville.

*90% of the OTHER streets. 86th and 2nd ave are the only streets with anything different.

"Also, the food on the UWS.... oh my lord. NYMag actually called it a "restaurant wasteland" recently."

Not quite. The article spoke about the UWS being a wasteland in the past and that it has improved tremendously. I'm a big time foodie and while the UWS isn't the village, it is getting much better. Unless you want overpriced, old people establishments I’m not sure how you can argue that the UES is some sort of culinary gem.

"When I'm talking big box I mean things like.... 15 CPW HAS A BEST BUY! Its nutty."

What about the UES Home Depot, Container Store, Crate and Barrel, and countless other chain retail establishments? There is no more nauseating spot in the city.

"I've made the call here on another thread... in 5 years Madonna or some other retard will move to the Upper East and it will be declared "hot" all over again"

As long as Madonna gets rid of the over 90 population and finds room on the sidewalks for all the walkers with tennis balls on the legs.

"UES also just has much more quality housing stock."

I agree with this. The UWS has a lot of garbage inventory. It is difficult to find what you want, maybe because it is more desirable that the UES?

>> What about the UES Home Depot, Container Store, Crate and Barrel, and countless other chain retail establishments?

That's right I forgot about the area around Bloomies. Sorry, I guess I wouldn't want to live in the retail, but I like being able to walk to it to get stuff done.

uws has the Great Burrito, nuff said.

> To each their own. I lived on York for five years and I HATED and CURSED the walk on a daily basis.
> Especially in the winter.

I actually agree with you there... York sucks. But sounds like we're talking distance from subway here... which will change (though maybe not that soon). The current walk is HORRIBLE.

But thats not what I'm talking about, I mean the scale, the neighborhood, the "niceness of the walk" for what its worth. UWS is just much too "choppy" for me.

>> What about the UES Home Depot, Container Store, Crate and Barrel, and countless other chain retail
>> establishments?

Home Depot and container store are 58th. C&B 59th.

The first two are DEFINITELY not UES. 59th is if you stretch it, PERHAPS on the border...

At that rate, you'd be calling the Plaza Hotel "upper east side".

The simple truth is that the buildings on the UES that I love, are not affordable, i.e. the amount of liquid net worth after closing you have to have - we're not even in the ballpark. Whereas a 3 million+ apt on the West End, I could probably afford bcs the liquid reqs of the boards would not be so crazy.

"I don't follow. Why will people suddenly like it? Because of Madonna (who is no longer really looked at as a trend-setter, so I wouldn't really pick her for this)."

Not saying they'll "like it", just stop disliking it. Its the opposite of hot, so just going to "regular" would be an increase in demand.

In terms of Madonna, you missed the reference.... UWS got "hot" when Sean and Madonna moved over... or at least that was the story when it happened.

> "UES also just has much more quality housing stock."
> I agree with this. The UWS has a lot of garbage inventory. It is difficult to find what you want,
> maybe because it is more desirable that the UES?

Right now, I think so.

But its also because UES just HAS more stock. Its simply bigger... (wider, and assume same length).

"Unless you want overpriced, old people establishments I’m not sure how you can argue that the UES is some sort of culinary gem."

Its all relative, and its what folks like... but it still dwarfs the UWS (which is what we're talking about here).

There is just so little choice on the UWS, and I'm not even talking about the expensive stuff.

I think it's funny to pick on areas of NYC ...I am just happy to live here...when you ..if you...start a family here all your thoughts and priorities change.....the upper east side is great for the parks, public /private schools....family friendly feel ....it's amazing what having kids will do....that's why we have a second home "outside" the city ....the value in buying on the upper east side will go up when the 2nd avenue line is built....it's good to think ahead....

interesting that no one has pointed out the obvious: that both the upper west side and the upper east side have been supplanted by the west village, central village, and tribeca as the most desirable neighborhoods in the city--with chelsea, gramercy, madison square park, soho, nolita, and the east village just slightly trailing tribeca and the west village. for the best restaurants, the most attractive neighborhoods (and the most attractive people), the best shopping, the best public transportation, and the best nightlife, down town is where it's at. you guys have the best parks and museums, but other than that it's all about the village.

If you can afford downtown that's great! Go for it....when we go out..it's always downtown

"interesting that no one has pointed out the obvious: that both the upper west side and the upper east side have been supplanted by the west village, central village, and tribeca as the most desirable neighborhoods in the city"

How is that obvious? I love all of those areas for all of the reasons you mentioned, but I don't necessarily want to live there.

"(and the most attractive people)"

Um yeah, whatever. You must be 22.

"and the best nightlife"

Yeah, nothing like people pissing on your doorstep yelling "going to kick your ass" a 3am. Downtown sucks on the weekends however, there is nothing better than evenings in the village during the week.

"interesting that no one has pointed out the obvious: that both the upper west side and the upper east side have been supplanted by the west village, central village, and tribeca as the most desirable neighborhoods in the city"

I definitely pointed that out.... note my numerous comments about UES being the "opposite of hot".

And thats the point, these things generally go in cycles, and the best values come at the BOTTOM of the cycle. Buying what's hot now at best gets you average appreciation, but has the change of being significantly worse.

> you guys have the best parks

Not a small issue...

> for the best restaurants, the most attractive neighborhoods (and the most attractive people), the
> best shopping, the best public transportation, and the best nightlife, down town is where it's at.

And uptown used to be where its at. Point... things change.

Not to mention.... Chelsea having best transportation? West village? Some of those spots are awfully hard to get to. UWS is actually damn good for a lot of transportation, and we'll see what happens on the East Side now.

But, bigger point is... what's "hot" usually gets one burned.

juiceman,

you may not want to live here, but that's not really the point. more people want to live in the prime down town areas than on the upper west or upper east sides--hence what's happened to apartment prices. your individual taste is not the issue (nor mine. i'd rather live in boerum hill than on park avenue, but that doesn't make boerum hill a more desirable neighborhood than carnegie hill).

i think you've been hanging out in the very wrong parts of downtown if you think weekend nights downtown "suck." obviously if you hang out in the meat packing district or west chelsea you are going to be miserable. if you go to the best parts of the lower east side, the village, or tribeca--i mean, what do you consider a nice weekend night?

"you may not want to live here, but that's not really the point. more people want to live in the prime down town areas than on the upper west or upper east sides"

I believe that prime UES still blows away the rest of the city in terms of demand, if you want to go with your apartment price comparison...

oh, i'm not speculating on the future direction of real estate values. i'm just commenting that the best neighborhoods in the city are down town. i agree that parks are not a small issue--i didn't say they were. and the west village is extremely well-served by public transportation--abcd123 and l trains all very accessible from the west village. chelsea is slightly less served, but still at least as good as the upper west side.

"and the west village is extremely well-served by public transportation"

not the prime part (going by your definition of most expensive).

> chelsea is slightly less served, but still at least as good as the upper west side.

Not even close.

Also, juiceman brings up a great point... hanging out vs. living. I generally hang out in a mix of areas, and more downtown than uptown. That doesn't mean I want to live across from the Ganseevort Hotel. Some of the best spots to hang out are the absolute worst to live, unless you are the puking type.

the prime west village is not well-served by public transport? hmmm let's pick a random intersection, say west 4th and perry street--doesn't get more prime than that. that is a 5 minute walk to the ACE123BDFV and L trains. i don't really understand what you're talking abaout.

and if you think that living down town means living next to the gansevoort hotel then i don't think you've spent much time here.

as for prime ues, i don't doubt that 5th avenue will remain the most expensive thoroughfare in the city. but other than prime 5th avenue and prime central park west, where you pay for the views as much as the neighborhood, the west village and tribeca clearly have a stronger demand/supply ratio.

Fair point happyrenter, maybe I'm just getting old and boring.

>> the value in buying on the upper east side will go up when the 2nd avenue line is built....it's good to think ahead

Umm ok. They've been saying that for 5-10 years (I bought on York, I know) and they will continue to say that for the next 5-10 years as the project gets delayed either due to poor planning, underestimation of work or the current economic crisis. It maybe happen eventually, but you're crazy if you're banking on it.

>> "interesting that no one has pointed out the obvious: that both the upper west side and the upper east side have been supplanted by the west village, central village, and tribeca as the most desirable neighborhoods in the city"

That's why everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Personally, I have no interest in living down there. In fact, I can't remember the last time I went down there. West Village/Tribeca attracts a lot of people, but not me. Maybe some of those people will start thinking UWS/UES once they start having kids.

"the prime west village is not well-served by public transport? hmmm let's pick a random intersection, say west 4th and perry street"

We're not picking random intersections, you said prime, and you said prime is defined by expensive.
That would mean the Perry Street and other buildings on the water. Those are horrible to get to....

Picking the spot right around the W4 stop and then saying THAT is a "random" example of prime? Its neither prime nor random.

> and if you think that living down town means living next to the gansevoort hotel then i don't think
> you've spent much time here.

Then you think wrong. I'm obviously giving an example to make the point, but it was you in fact who name checked Meatpacking. If you have a point, make the point, don't try this "well, you just don't know" childish stuff.

> the west village and tribeca clearly have a stronger demand/supply ratio.

Which could mean less demand, just even less supply. The logic doesn't make your point... and thats assuming its even correct in the first place.

BTW, what the hell does this have to do with the thread...?

nyc10022

perry and west 4th is not by the west 4th subway stop--it is significantly closer to the subway stops at christopher and 7th and 14th and 7th (which has an entrance on 12th street), and is about equidistant to the west 4th street stop and the stop at14th street and 6th avenue, and the stop at 14th and 8th avenue, which are each about 5 minutes away. evidently you don't know anything about the west village. that's fine, just don't pretend that you do. the most prime area of the west village is not along the hudson river, it is along west 4th, waverly, bleecker, and bedford, and the side streets off of them: commerce, barrow, charles, perry, 11th, bank, 12th, etc. if you think perry and west 4th is not prime, again, it can only be because you know nothing about the west village. i picked it because it is smack dab in the center of the most prime area of the prime west village and would be my nominee for best intersection in the entire city.

the area right by the west 4th street stop is not ultra prime, i agree.

what this has to do with the thread is pretty obvious: the relationship between prices on the upper east side and upper west side does not exist in a vacuum. that ratio is impacted by the fact that the best downtown neighborhoods are now considered the best places to live. i think this particularly hurts the prime areas of the upper east side other than 5th avenue (which is protected by the views). the social set that used to help keep prices and would only live in a certain area of the upper east side is now dispersed, and the neighborhood is not much different from historically less expensive areas of the upper west side, aside for a higher number of blue haired ladies. the areas east of lexington have always been awful and probably haven't been impacted by this.

happyrenter, totally agree with that last post. Many downtown neighborhoods have attracted wealthier individuals/families, which has lessened the concentration of money that was on 5th, Park, and Madison for so long. It's still there, just in a somewhat diluted form. And it is near impossible to match the charm of some of those West Village streets anywhere in the city. On a side note, I think some of this "people puking on your doorstep downtown" thing is completely exaggerated. I've lived on the UES, UWS, Nolita, and Williamsburg - the most "puking" I ever saw was on the UES.

i am just amazed when people claim that there is poor public transport to the west village. in the prime areas of the upper east side you are lucky to be a 5 or 10 minute walk to one subway stop with one subway line. on the upper west side it is much better, but still, if you live west of broadway you probably aren't walking to the CE, and if you live on CPW north of 72nd or so you probably aren't walking to the broadway line. in the west village you have close access to at least four subway lines (broadway, 8th ave, 6th ave, and L) and the only slightly inconvenient part of the city to get to is the upper east side. but again, not that bad, you can either walk 12 minutes to union square or hop on the L. the only neighborhood i know of with better subway access than the prime west village is the prime central village, which is truly a mass transit heaven.

thanks for the nod, bjw. seems pretty clear to me.

Amsterdam between 80th and 84th takes a backseat to no one where sidewalk puking is concerned.

The hot neighborhood/cold neighborhood thing hasn't been a zero-sum game until now. The pool of rich buyers grew rapidly from 2002 to 2007, so they could spread out (and had to). The competition for scarcer money will be interesting to watch.

"most prime area of the west village is not along the hudson river, it is along west 4th, waverly, bleecker, and bedford, and the side streets off of them: commerce, barrow, charles, perry, 11th, bank, 12th, etc. "

I actually agree with that designation of prime... but, if thats the case, it doesn't work with your "demand/pricing" claims above. The waterfront is far more expensive than the interior sections...

"if you think perry and west 4th is not prime, again, it can only be because you know nothing about the west village"

Ok, back to childish again, I got it...

> what this has to do with the thread is pretty obvious

No, its not obvious, it doesn't actually exist.

> the relationship between prices on the upper east side and upper west side does not exist in a
> vacuum.

On this thread it does, that was the question posed. Noone asked where those prices were heading even, it was a comparison about the relative costs in one vs. the other.

That has nothing to do with the west village.

> that ratio is impacted by the fact that the best downtown neighborhoods are now considered the best
> places to live

Incorrect logic. The ABSOLUTE numbers would be, the ratios would not be.

Sorry, but its off topic.

> neighborhood i know of with better subway access than the prime west village is the prime central
> village, which is truly a mass transit heaven.

hmmm... times square, union square. FiDi.

Surprised you haven't heard of those places... perhaps you need to leave the W4 once in a while.

;-)

And, how can I forget.... Fort Greene.... Brooklyn Heights (well, lets just say anything anywhere near Borough Hall, you hit a lot of neighborhoods).

BTW, I do like WVillage... and I think 10 years ago, it was a top spot to live. But the banking analyst kiddies invaded (I got a anecdote where half an analyst class at a bulge bracket lived there), and many of the things that used to make it great are gone. A huge number the food shops, for instance, have been closing because no one cooks. A food writer friend calls it Disneyland now... and then add in the towers crowd... ouch.

Good housing stock, but its prime days are behind it. Of course, when folks do call it "cold" in 10 years, I'll tell you to buy.

;-)

nyc10022,

again, if you think that perry and west 4th isn't prime, you know nothing about the village. as i said before, that's fine. i don't know much about the best neighborhoods in delhi, and i don't claim to. i don't know what units you are thinking of when you say that the area along the river is more expensive than the prime streets around west 4th and bleecker. there are the richard meier buildings, which have fetched some high prices, but that's just three buildings. and the prices are comparable to the townhouses on the best blocks. other than that development the highest prices are most definitely in the prime west village.

let's see. union square is the northeastern edge of the central village, which i mentioned. financial district and the neighborhoods in brooklyn are close to subways, but require long subway rides to get to the center of the city, ergo the mass transit situation is worse. times square is not really a residential neighborhood, but ok, you got me there, great subway access.

actually, the ratio would change with the emergence of downtown. because the ues will be impacted more than the uws as per my analysis (seconded by bjw). that impacts the absolute numbers and the ratio. at least get your mathematical terms right.

dude,
you are touting the upper east side and you say that the village doesn't have good food shops? let's see: citarella, the union square green market, murray's, lifethyme organic, florence (best butcher in the city). i don't love the influx of bankers, but quite frankly, they are outfluxing right now. and there's still more soul in the village than there has ever been on the upper east side.

truly great neighborhoods don't follow the trends. the west village and the central village will always be great, they are not trendy, they are classic. that said, i think the best parts of the upper east side and upper west side are classic as well--just not the east side east of lexington.

as an addendum, the union square green market is by far the best place to by food in the city--it is probably the best place to buy food in the entire country. the fishmonger is the best in the city, the produce all year round, the cheese, everything.

> again, if you think that perry and west 4th isn't prime, you know nothing about the village. as i
> said before, that's fine.

One more time... I didn't say that, in fact I said the opposite. Stop being childish.

> but that's just three buildings.

And superior ink, and 1 morton square, and...

The psfs are higher on the water, all buildings in the section - it was a median number I've seen - than anywhere else in the W Village....

Either way, its not "just three buildings".

> let's see. union square is the northeastern edge of the central village, which i mentioned

Given that the neighborhood goes to Houston, being a mile away from that doesn't make it very transportation friendly. Being in the low single digits is pretty lacking.

> financial district and the neighborhoods in brooklyn are close to subways, but require long subway
> rides to get to the center of the city, ergo the mass transit situation is worse

OK, but you have to stop changing your story just to win an argument, its being childish. Here are YOUR words... "neighborhood i know of with better subway access"

Plus, how are you defining the center of the city? Given the increasing importance of Brooklyn, you can make a case that FiDi is more central than any neighborhood mentioned...

> actually, the ratio would change with the emergence of downtown. because the ues will be impacted
> more than the uws as per my analysis (seconded by bjw). that impacts the absolute numbers and the
> ratio. at least get your mathematical terms right.

Careful with the hypocrisy. The question was historical, so the "will be impacted" is still off topic... forget the mathematical terms, work on the reading comp section of the exam.

;-)

"you are touting the upper east side and you say that the village doesn't have good food shops? let's see: citarella, the union square green market, murray's, lifethyme organic, florence (best butcher in the city)."

No, please read more carefully. I noted the outflux of good food shops. WVillage started with a very high number, so it has some ways to go, but the trend has been substantial. Just look at the closings right around Murray's....

"as an addendum, the union square green market is by far the best place to by food in the city--it is probably the best place to buy food in the entire country."

Hey, I've been there probably 50 times, but lets not get carried away. Getting overpriced muffins and produce from a truck doesn't make it particularly fantastic. And, in case you hadn't noticed, the greenmarkets are all over the place now... and most of the vendors from US are rotating.

Also, how does what is available the north end of union square count for what's in the west village?

your response to my choice of perry and west 4th as a typical intersection in the prime west village: " Its neither prime nor random." if you now acknowledge the absurdity of that statement, then fine. but you did make it.

how is this question historical: "With the bubble popped will the discount re-appear or has UWS changed dramatically to justify its priced when compared to UES." seems to me that you have trouble with both math and reading comprehension.

the prices in morton square have never been higher than in the prime parts of the west village--say, the bing and bing buildings at abingdon square. superior ink is a new development that is still under construction, but yeah, it can probably be added to the meier buildings as more or less equivalent to the traditional best parts of the village.

why is union square relevant to the west village? because it is a 9 minute walk from my old apartment in the ultra prime west village to the green market--which, if you had really visited 50 times, you would realize is normally on the southwest corner union square, temporarily displaced toward the southeast at the moment for construction. from most of the upper east side how long a walk would it be to a decent food store? 20-30 minutes? and overpriced muffins (i've never bought a muffin there and i shop at the market twice a week) are not what make the greenmarket the best place in the city to buy food. if you don't realize that, it's probably because...you live on the upper east side and don't shop there. the other green markets are great but clearly don't compare to the union square.

anyway, enough of this. the only point i was making was that the shift toward down town will have a disproportionate impact on the prime upper east side. if you disagree, ok, but debating the merits of the west village is kind of like arguing over whether bach could write organ music or shelley wrote great love poetry.

"the most "puking" I ever saw was on the UES."

bjw, old lady puke doesn't count

happyrenter, are you related to rufus?

JuiceMan, believe me, old lady puke definitely counts. They put away a LOT of bourbon - not pretty.

happyrenter, don't worry, nyc10022 does this every now and then. You say potato...