High End Rental

Screw the broker and his/her mind games. Offer whatever you feel is the appropriate price for the apartment, and let them sort it out. Keep in mind they dont get paid if you dont rent, so make an offer and say "best and final" then flip them the bird. YOU are in control in this market, dont be afraid to tell the broker that.

I've been watching the rental market for a while and in the past 2 weeks I have noticed a tremendous number of price cuts - particularly on the high end. It's a shame outright deception is condoned among brokers. If i were you I would set up an alert in streeteasy for rentals with recent price cuts. That way you will only have to deal with owners who understand the market is falling.

starting to look at high end rentals and have had the same painful experience. i don't begrudge anyone trying to make a living but not through outright lying. my thought at this point is try to steer clear of brokers; they can't tell owners "the truth" for fear of losing the listing and they can't tell prospects the truth, ie. that for many owners, reality has not yet sunk in.

bottom line is wait if at all possible--this will look very different in May.

It can be difficult dealing with owners of rental properties or sellers for that matter. There are some good deals out there, I just rented a 2 bed/2 bath(1000+F2), large private roof deck, fireplace and renovated in a full service loft building in the village for $5400. I am also seeing some significant price drops on Tribeca lofts.

based on your description that sounds a lot more reasonable. not sure why it pays brokers to hassle with owners and then in turn hassle with potential renters. seems like an interesting time to make a name for yourself based on fair value transactions--every month an apartment (particularly a high end one) sits empty has got to make the owner more and more difficult to deal with.

The market is especially effecting the high end market. The bubble burst. The day of "this will not affect people with millions" has come. The stock and real estate markets imploded. It especially hit this with millions.

Bid as you see fit.

When they knowingly lie to you, look them in the eye and simply say. "Tell the truth and let the Good Lord love you" Don't say another word, just stare at them. If that doesn't work, slap her on the ass and say, "brokers usually like it when I do that".

lol.

At what price range does something begin to be "high end"? Or is it the building?

over 5K?

My wife and I tried to bring up Street Easy comps (Im already a rental resident in building on UWS that we are looking at) and we just want to get a bigger place now that our lease is up. This new building has gotten a lot of fan fare in the press lately, but they are trying to tell us that the market is not effecting this building. We are pretty mellow people, they know we are serious as we already live here, but it was really hard on us to be pushed that hard yesterday. We felt we are being lied to when they kept saying contacts out" for full ask ec ect. It was both our broker and the lister broker that were pushing us. I felt our broker was really working with the listing brokers, not for us.

Is it ethical for us to switch brokers even though we were shown the building yesterday with broker that we have? (Its the first showing together with us). Our old broker retired recentely. We went thru this on our last lease, but the market seemed much stronger last year and we negotiated a fair deal for both sides. Not a steal, but we were comfortable. What do we do when the lister(s) all said price is not negotiable at all. Prob just should wait for others to come up. Our present landlord will renew with no increase and hes been great,but do not know if strict building will allow month to month until we find something. Sorry to ramble but this is an important transaction for our family and this market is very confusing.

PS Thanks everyone for the help

perhaps I am naive, but I would suggest sending this message (perhaps slightly edited but only slightly) to your current landlord and see what happens. think about it--you have rented in this building at least one year ( I am assuming), paid faithfully and not been difficult in any way...in a normal place, that would be the best reference you could ask for.

why should you be made to feel uncomfortable in any way attempting to determine a reasonable market price? we all know what this looked like in the past when it was going the other way. I am not suggesting hostility or unpleasantness and you certainly don't sound like someone who would go there....just a reasonable discussion to attempt to make everyone feel that they are being treated fairyly...

good luck.

Technically if you see an apartment with a broker you are supposed to work with them (on that apartment only). If the broker was a jerk however, feel free to kick him to the curb and use another broker that you trust going forward. The better question would be why are you insisting on using one at all? Reach out directly to the building management if possible, they will certainly give you a better deal as they dont need to pay a brokers fee if you go direct. Whenever possibly, limit the involvement of a broker. NEVER have two brokers involved, especially if you are looking at a rental. With sites like Streeteasy, there is no point in wasting time paying your own broker to simply come here (this website) to find a co-broke with another listing agent.

theburkhardtgroup: you rented that place for $5400? I'm impressed...the pictures made the bedroom look tiny and dark.

And that outdoor space...kind of looks like a bamboo prison...oy
I've been looking on the upper west and these brokers are killing me...even after I slap them on the ass...

I'm assuming that this building is a condo and not a lux rental? Do you mind disclosing the location? Just curious.

Also, I always assumed "high end" to mean renting in a (new) condo, 6K+.

"Luxury" rental buildings generally have 2 bedroom units in the 5k range, and the white-on-white 5 year old appliances sure don't spell "high end".

They ask (and apparently) close to $8k per month in the Brodsky building at 12 E 86th (The Croydon) for 2 beds. While the building DID get a major renovation over the past year, I certainly wouldnt consider it ultra luxury nor would I fathom paying that much for an apartment there.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/432660-12-east-86th-street-upper-east-side-new-york

I actually went and saw that one to see what the deal with it was, and I can tell you it was a $5k (at best) apartment. High floor, however the cell phone antenna on the roof of the building was basically sitting in the living room (scary stuff), and lets not forget the all white appliances, including a dishwasher that a child could pick up and walk around with. I have no idea what price they actually closed on, however if someone DID pay $7500 they are missing a few screws.

The building DOES have a FANTASTIC location however, so I guess thats what drives the prices higher than they should really be.

At 1049 Fifth Ave there is a listing for a three bedroom at $7500, renewals at the Croydon are in the $5000s basically the same as rents before the fix up

Renewals maybe, but if you check the listing history they ask between $7k and $8k (at the Croydon) for the 2 beds. Again, I have no way of verifying what the actual negotiated price was but its still too much. 1049 5th is a luxury condo, so they can at least attempt to ask $7500. The listings in that building (there are 2) show top quality appliances and finishes in the kitchen. Its also a condo, so someone paid for all that stuff.

It's amazing how all of these luxury rentals got away with insane pricing during the economic boom - most are in for a serious correction.

I helped a friend find a rental recently - we went to 10 luxury buildings and only ONE had stainless steel appliances and hardwood (non-parquet) floors. The only thing these buildings had going for them were views, door men, and a gym.

The "white" appliances in these apts had layers of grime which I assumed dated back to the buildings' 1999 opening - of course the leasing associate made sure to mention how they were, "recently replaced!"

After a day of disastrous luxury rentals, my friend took the first condo rental we saw.

adamw607, even if the rental units you are looking at are "not-negotiable" the brokers are just getting really desperate. A lot of brokers can't make their quotas and are starting to get restless. So, if i were you, just find a different broker or go to No fee units. Since the market is so bad, a lot of No fee apartments will even give you a month free if you sign a one year lease and two months free if you sign in for a two year lease.

As far as I am concerned ALL rentals on the market now (condos, co-ops, and condops) are no-fee to the renter. If its a condo/condop/co-op insist that the owner pay the brokers fee. After all, THEY are the one working with the broker to get THEIR place occupied. As for the rental buildings that use brokers (and dont have an approachable management company), simply tell the broker to collect his fee from the property owner or just move on. There are tons of apartments on the market today, there is NO reason to pay someone to hand you a lease.

adam, skip the broker. Huge waste of time, money and hassle. If you like high end, you probably know which management companies have them. If you like condo buildings, look through listings on streeteasy, brokerage websites, and NYT.

As an example, I would classify these two listings at 212 East 47th as high end (maybe you have a different definition). We saw them in December, both were officially very negotiable then. I bet the new, lower prices are still quite negotiable.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/423758-condo-212-east-47th-street-turtle-bay-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/445092-condo-212-east-47th-street-turtle-bay-new-york

Thanks for the helpfull comments everyone, The only problem is that This is not a rental building we are dealing with its a condo thats pretty strict. The rents we are looking at are in the 25-30 K per month range. Almost have to use a broker as there is no way we know how to get in touch with individual owners of these apartments. Most have not moved in yet as building is very new. The building is on the Upper West side on CPW. Will look to buy when prices drop more there, and really like the building, but got same run around from brokers when we asked about buying. (Building will never lose value, Buyers are flipping for 3x, blah blah). We have lived here already for a year and are very comfortable. We have a pretty small 2 bedroom now and will prob renew if we cant make a good deal. The hardest part is we feel we are being lied to by the brokers, not just being pushed.

PS We are not real estate experts, and use Street easy to help guide us some.

adamw607: If you send me the address I will see if there are any owners or "broker collect your own fee" listings in a few other systems other than streeteasy. I am a broker who recognizes the current state of the market. I recently did a rental at Time Warner and accepted a reasonable fee from the owner and everyone was happy.

In many of these top buildings where there were investors buying to flip etc many listings are now available for rent. keith@theburkhardtgroup.com or www.theburkhardtgroup.com Call as well if you like it will all be kept 100% confidential.

haha. you mention $25-30k a month and burkhardt starts to salivate... i bet you have a bunch more brokers competing for your business by the end of the day..

based on what i've seen at SE, at the price you are quoting, you should realize at least a 20% discount. would recommend patience and humor.

Adamw607, my firm is taking a listing in the range you mention, and I think what are you facing is what we are facing on that listing: the owner has multiple homes, and wants to rent one of them out to generate income, so what they asking for is the "hurdle rate" at which they would give up use of the Manhattan property rather than than give up use of the country property.

I assume from your description you are talking about 15 CPW, and I don't work up there (I do luxury rentals, but only south of the park) so my best guess is that if you made offers just slightly below quoted list they would be transmitted and possibly accepted, but that if you want a substantial discount, the owners will just rent out their Hamptons places instead.

If you do want to switch locations, I believe I can get you a low-floor 3-BR in Trump World (the one with Megu in it) for $11K. The building has a lovely spa-like gym and pool -- up to the standards of any luxury building I've seen in Manhattan -- and you could keep some money in your pocket to build your down payment.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

ow...

adam says he wants to stay in the building and you suggest a completely different neighborhood?

learn how to sell. that involves listening to the customer not pushing what you have.

hurdle rate? hilarious. this is precisely the kind of nonsense that we are all objecting to. you think that by using a semi business term that you can rationalize high prices? this was unpleasant to deal with in an up market but under the current circumstances, it is laughable.

ok...so rents aren't going down but hurdle rates are?

columbiacounty, if an owner doesn't want (i.e. need) to rent below his/her hurdle rate, there is nothing you can do about it. Just look for another apartment. If people are in good financial shape and don't need the money that urgently, why would they go through the hassle of renting out their apartment?

i agree completely.

under the circumstances you describe, the broker might say, "hey, the owner choses to not lower the price," rather than "these rents are not negotiable at all and you would need to get your offer in asap."

better yet (but understandable that many brokers would choose not to go this far) "hey this owner is not realistic. move on."

in most businesses, brokers are around to facilitate the transaction, to smooth the water between two parties not to add confusion, mis information and build resentment.

obviously, in times past, this didn't matter as NY prices went in one direction and most recently very rapidly in that direction. but, now that we have entered a more normal market--yes normal markets go down as well as up--brokers could help facilitate the leveling of prices that we are all so anxious to see. i think everyone agrees that what is most necessary is for both buyers and sellers, owners and renters to be able to rely on market pricing and not believe that they are being ripped off.

not giving straight information to the best of their ability does not help this situation in any way.

can you imagine dealing with an insurance broker or a stock broker on this basis?

columbiacounty-- they're not MY high prices, they're the OWNER'S high prices.

I realize that my industry has terrible PR problems for a reason, but we don't actually set prices -- owners do.

Also, I give the customer as much information as possible: if OP wants to stay in his building and he has been told that prices are not flexible, I 1)showed him the probable point of maximum flexibility and 2)showed him a good available alternative.

What constructive advice do you have for him?

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Adam seems more annoyed by the broker/broker fee situation-who wouldn't? That's like a $40,000 dollar+ commission to move down a few doors...I work on a flat fee model and these days I have been 100% successful collecting a reasonable fee from the owner. That is what I do.No silly lies.No games.

Jenny I am hardly salivating based on an anonymous post on SE. I have a lease signing in an hour and until the checks are in hand I don't consider it a deal.lol.

insurance brokers don't set prices...insurance companies do.

a trustworthy insurance broker shops your policy to a bunch of companies and comes back with the prices for the policy on which you agreed. they may suggest a higher deductible if you indicate that you are more willing to take that risk than pay a higher premium, etc. they certainly do not steer you to a higher priced product if a lower priced one is available.

saying that your industry has pr problems is suggesting that somehow the problem is one of appearance rather than substance. lets face it, rental brokers have been making money but adding little value. I am not suggesting that many brokers don't "work hard." I am sure its no fun and very time consuming dealing with recalcitrant owners and often time angry, resentful renters.

my sincere advice to OP is above: wait, maintain your sense of humor, don't continue to engage with brokers who bully you and most likely one or more serious owners who do want income will emerge.

columbia, how is suggesting an $11K rental for someone who says they're shopping for a $25K rental "steering them to a higher priced product?"

ali r.
{downtown broker}

What are currently the most desirable rental buildings in manhattan? I assume Grand Tier is up there since their penthouse unit is being rented for around $34K/month.

here's the problem. when a renter/buyer indicates that they want to stay in their building but would like to pay less because they believe that the overall market has gone down, recommending a building (all be it at a lower price) in a completely different neighborhood is not helpful. i have had the exact same experience with agents who seemingly do not hear a word that i have said because it doesn't suit them.

we both know that living in midtown is a completely different experience than CPW so once again where is the value add from your suggestion?

"they are trying to tell us that the market is not effecting this building"

that gets added to the list with the other brilliant quotes like...

"but Manhattan isn't like the rest of the country"
and
"yes, but prime Manhattan won't go down"

We were surprised that the broker who showed us and the listing brokers (3) were acting as if the were working together against us. The apartment we like the best of the 3 was on the market at $30000K, sat, then raised to 35000 after sitting on the market longer. We wanted to offer 25000 per month for a 3 year deal (And pay the broker fee as usual)and offer to pay each year in advance. We were told not to submit an offer unless it was for the full 35K.... Thats when we got frustrated in left. The most expensive unit we saw at 40K was told to us that "Its only been on the market for a week" and already has contacts (note the s) out so we would need to offer 45K to get it. (This apartment was over our price range anyway). We asked that if the Financial crisis would hurt this building and if prices would drop (Lots of wall street guys live at this building) and the answer was these wall street guys dont live off their bonuses. I didnt understand that a Wall Street Guy that lives in this UWS building would be diff than a wall street guy in any other building.

the logic usually works perfectly in all lies...

I will assume we are speaking of 15 CPW here are the active rentals. Some have been on the market 17 weeks or longer, one recently went from $25k to $23k pm. You need a broker who will advocate for you....None of these are flying off the shelf and I am sure many owners are pissed off that the condo they were sold in a "bullet proof" building has been vacant 17 weeks!

8-L 2BD 4/2/2 $11,500

8-N 2BD 4/2/2.5 $15,500

10-M 2BD 4.5/2/2.5 $16,900

7-G 2BD 4/2/4 $17,900

24-C 2BD 4.5/2/2.5 $19,500

12-G 3BD 7.5/3/3.5 $23,000

3-A 3BD 6.5/3/3.5 $27,000

6-C 2BD 6/2/2.5 $27,000

35-B 2BD 5/2/2.5 $30,000

24-A 3BD 5/3/3.5 $35,000

35-A 3BD 7.5/3/3.5 $40,000

but wait...what about their hurdle rate?

Based on the rental prices you provided, we can conclude that building is indeed 15 CPW.

Negotiating these prices will be tough, given the ego of a broker/owner in such a building.

You should bring a laptop to the next apt viewing, and have streeteasy open for the brokers, so they won't give you the, "only on the market for a week".

There are very few people willing to throw away 30k in rent these days, so DO NOT let these brokers push you. You are in complete control - do not give your hard earned money to these brokers and owners.

If you must live in 15 CPW, you should check out some of the other units below your price range and see how negotiable they are.

Best of luck.

Not suggesting that 15CPW is worth 30k, but, 30k may be cheap. Lets say you are looking at a 20mm apt. But we all on streeteasy know that we won't pay more than 9mm. Rent it instead for 30k. 30k*12=360k*25=9,000,000. Still a good deal to rent.

"The rents we are looking at are in the 25-30 K per month range." - now that's what I think of when I hear "high end rental". Glad my gut is still spot on!

theburkhardtgroup - the unit they want is the one listed at 35K. The one you mentioned, which recently dropped to 23K, is actually the same layout - although it appears to be on a lower floor.

So I'm assuming that this guy wants an apt with a full view of central park.

patient09 - I agree. It's amazing that the rent/buy analysis leans towards rent even at 30k/month!

Personally, I would rent this, http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/443667-rental-48-west-69th-street-lincoln-square-new-york

actually, maybe not that amazing - the rent/buy scenario would prob always leans towards rent with high end manhattan.

uwsmom, very nice apartment indeed...

uwsmom, you know a few other families we could rent it with, do some communal living type thing, I dig the late 60's.

I'm in!

This would be my fallback, http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/422185-townhouse-313-west-71st-street-lincoln-square-new-york.

Sorry adamw- its not often that one is looking in this price range on SE. I couldn't help but post these. I'm sure you're looking for something w/ views, amenities, maybe newer construction. If I was in your price range, I wouldn't be able to pass these up.

I've rented from this broker (see listings below). He knows his way around in the high-end market. Mostly downtown listings but he took me to 15CPW and told me quiet frank what the story is with some of the listings (didn't push). Didn't decide on 15CPW 3 months ago because some of the owners are not ready to negotiate. Got a loft with a view and 20% discount from list price. Some of the apartments we visit came back later and offered to negotiate. One of them was 15CPW

http://www.sothebyshomes.com/nyc/agents/nyc/rental/0134569
http://www.sothebyshomes.com/nyc/agents/nyc/rental/0134482

Thanks for the insight. EVERYONE'S posts were helpfull for our family. We decided to nicely part ways with the broker that showed us, today. ( Shes e mailed 4 times already since a few hours ago). Anyone know a broker who is honest who really knows the UWS? We are open to suggestion..
We are not from the city so we are not in the know who is good, honest ect ect. (Street Easy was the best money spent as we could really see what was happening for real) We love the building so we really would like to stay here so we will re group as other posters commented, and try to wait it out. Our current landlord in building is great, but knows we are looking for a larger place. Wish he owned another unit so we could deal with him still. The community on this site has been very great...Thank You.

Hi Adamw607 try the broker (Torsten at Sotheby's) I listed with links just above your last post. He mostly does high-end rentals and I got his contact from film productions. He has listings mostly downtown but works with customer all over Manhattan. He knew his way around on UWS just as good as downtown. He even took me to UES One Beacon Court and had good insides. Most important I trusted his opinion. Very honest and no pushing. I usually don't pitch contacts but it is hard to find a good broker in this price range. I got what I wanted. That should say it all. Good luck!!!

sohotenant what were your thoughts on one beacon court? It's beyond my price range; I'm currently looking to rent in the price range of around $10K/month. Any buildings you can recommend? I'm looking for newer doorman buildings with great amenities.

Adam, I sell in 15 CPW and I might have someone who wants to rent an awesome unit that's not listed. If you are interested email me - rglazer@bhsusa.com

Rachel,

I will e mail you today.

Thanks!

metalhead the one beacon court I like a lot if the bedrooms wouldn't be so small. Stunning views and good service. I only searched and saw apartments in the 20-35K range. Not sure which building would be good in the 10K. A friend of mine got something in the Park Imperial for 11K. Views and quality a bit comparable with One Beacon

Yeah, the rentals at one beacon start at around $20K. Amazing building.

On my budget, I could live in any rental building in the city, but I'm not too impressed with the quality. I've looked at grand tier, madison belvedere, 10 barclay, 88 leonard, sierra, chelsea landmark, chelsea centro, caroline, and some others. They've all had major flaws, so I'm pretty frustrated right now.

metalhead, there are VERY few nice rental buildings in manhattan. About 99% of them are total crap, and the ones you mentioned are either mediocre buildings and/or in lousy locations.

Adam,

Would you consider renting a full townhouse on the UWS? My friend works for a company that sells townhouses (only UWS), and they have an owner who would consider renting (full building, single family) in your price range. If so let me know and I will give you the contact info.

How much is it to rent a full floor in a townhouse?