More Bad News - Obama Reducing Mortgage Interest Deduction for "Top Earners"

UESBuyer:

"Top 1% ($388k) pay 39.89% of taxes

Top 5% pay 60.14% of taxes

Top 10% pay 70.79% of taxes

Top 25% pay 86.27% of taxes
Top 50% pay 97.01% of taxes

How is this not extremely progressive? Half the country essentially pays 0 taxes. How is it that the "rich" aren't paying there fair share, when 1% of the population is paying almost 40% of all taxes?"

Exactly. I don't mind paying my share, but Obama's redistribution of wealth is really starting to piss me off; I'm really tired of getting squeezed, nickeled & dimed. Midterm elections should be interesting: tax revolt? Instead of raising taxes, cut waste, but that never happens.

"If passed, this can be devestating to NY market and other large cities."

Exactly right. Just about anyone who wants to buy or sell an apt in NYC will be adversely effected by O's tax plan.

"that will push more people towards hiding their wealth and working less if hiding it is not possible. it doesn't mean that tax revenues will actually go up."

admin: completely agree. Why should I work so hard when the gov takes more & I keep less? I'll work less & pay less tax, so tax revenue decreases.

flmd:

"if Obama continues with the tax the rich rhetoric and actions he will be voted out of office, simple as that." good

"the american populace do not "hate" the rich, they want to become rich themselves..." Exactly

"class warfare eventually blows up in the other parties face whether they be republican or democrat" Agreed

I'm an independent. I liked neither McCain nor Obama. But, said to myself "dwell, give the man a chance, let's see what he'll do". Well, he's been in office in less than 60 days & I dislike him more than I previously did.

"After that they should move on to Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead."

Yes, because we all need to read about a woman who wants to be ravished by manly CEOs.

And it's not so easy to spot Atlas these days. The leaders of Industry, Rand's drool-worthy bunch, turned out to be a bunch of idiots, thieves, and, in the end, beggars to, of all things, the government.

Animal Farm is a powerful work of art. Rand's books are juvenile airplane reading.

"admin: completely agree. Why should I work so hard when the gov takes more & I keep less? I'll work less & pay less tax, so tax revenue decreases."

what is your motivation to work? only money? if so, won't you make more by working harder, even in a high tax situation?

"the american populace do not "hate" the rich, they want to become rich themselves..." Exactly

Yes, all of the people in the lower income brackets want to become rich, and therefore do not ask the rich to pay their fair share of taxes. It is this viewpoint that has gotten us into the current mess. The truth is that most people will never become rich.

The rich are going to have to shoulder some of the burden of getting us through this difficult time. Who else are we going to ask? For the good of the country and for the good of our society, they should shut up and pay.

"what is your motivation to work? only money? if so, won't you make more by working harder, even in a high tax situation? "

Of course, the incremental tax rate will never be 100%. That is the only thing that would completely remove the incentive to work harder.

I think there may be a lot of people telling others to pay taxes who either inherited money or got rich quick in the financial markets or otherwise. Or possibly have only themselves and one or two other dependents to take care of. My husband and I work hard for our money and I am in a field where I see people taking advantage of government services everyday (ie on disability or medicaid when perfectly able to work). I used to volunteer in a free clinic once a month to see the uninsured. The children I saw often had nicer Nike shoes than my kids had, cell phones and often braces! Teens and young adults sometimes had gold teeth!I am not sure how much that costs but I think its probably expensive. The adults I saw had nice jewelry, contacts, nice shoes and clothes. Its difficult to see your tax dollars and your volunteer time away from your family being spent on people who abuse the system. The sad thing is that the people who really need services will never know how to navigate maze of a system. The mentally ill, mentally disabled and substance abusers will still be on the street and still be underserved.

you will work less in order to pay less taxes? that's the most self-defeating attitude i've ever heard. it is also, if true in your case, exceptionally rare. when we had marginal income tax rates over 70% in this country, did high-earning people stop working? no evidence that they did.

but my favorite absurdity on this thread is this: steve and i point out that high tax countries--canada, the united states, england, sweden, france, germany, japan--also happen to be the most affluent, stable, pleasant places to live. and the comeback? what about monaco, singapore, and hong kong? is this a joke? let me take them one by one:

monaco has a population of 32,000 people. it is a tax shelter, monarchy, and more or less a protectorate of france. you honestly think you can compare the policies of monaco to the united states?

singapore is a non-democratic city-state with a population of 4 million. it did not become an independent nation until 1965, and the roots of its prosperity lie in its past as a trading center in the british empire--in other words, as part of a classic high-tax system.

hong kong is not an independent nation--it is part of the authoritarian dictatorship known as the people's republic of china. its prosperity developed during its period as part of great britain.

so why is it that the only places you can come up with that have low taxes and are affluent are either absurdly tiny, protectorates of other countries, not independent nations, and/or city-states? because not one major low-tax country is affluent, peaceful, and pleasant to live in. not one. there are plenty of big low tax countries--russia would be the best example, the gulf states as well. and those countries are unhealthy, undereducated, corrupt, and unstable.

high tax revenues are required to provide the infrastructure, education, health, peace, stability, and environmental safety that are needed to maintain and increase long-term affluence. are you all really so myopically focused on your personal take home pay that you can't see that?

"Yes, all of the people in the lower income brackets want to become rich, and therefore do not ask the rich to pay their fair share of taxes."

Wait...the top 1% pay 40% of all income taxes. They are not paying their fair share?

"t is this viewpoint that has gotten us into the current mess"

Really? It the rich not paying their "fair share" that got us into the mess? Sounds like you got some class envy issues going on.

"The rich are going to have to shoulder some of the burden of getting us through this difficult time. Who else are we going to ask? For the good of the country and for the good of our society, they should shut up and pay."

How about we don't ask because it's not the Government who is going to get us through this difficult time. This type of logic by socialists is just amazing. Did the New Deal do anything to solve the Great Depression? No, of course not, we didn't emerge from it until WW2.

blossom,
another ridiculous statement. you don't think the poor in this country should have braces? should they walk around barefoot and in rags? it is amazing that people feel 'stretched' on 250k per year but imagine that people earning 25k per year are somehow living it up in luxury. how would that be possible? do the math. personally, i am glad i live in a country where very few people go hungry and walk around barefoot. it is a source of embarrassment and shame to me that there are tens of millions of people living in poverty and without access to regular medical care, but at least we have few people in desperate poverty.

someone above came at me for saying that 400k of income per year is rich. i can't believe this is even debatable. in the united states, median household income is $48,000. over 8x the median of the richest large nation in the world isn't rich? and lets talk about the world since we are, after all, human beings. world wide the median household income is between $1,700 per year and $2200 per year. so you actually believe that earning 181x the high estimate of worldwide median income doesn't make you rich? what sort of bubble of privilege and excess do you people inhabit?

jgr,
instead of watching fox news why don't you go out and read a rigorous economic history of the great depression. you really have no idea what you are talking about.

jgr,
you certainly can't accuse me of class envy--i'm in the prime category of people who are going to have to pay more. and i am very happy to do so. more than happy. i do need to pay my fair share and as a member of this society it is up to me to live up to my responsibilities. i would never base my votes or my political positions on a narrow view of my personal tax bill. i actually care about the long-term interests of this country, in part because i know that i will be far more likely to prosper if the country does. fortunately i am not alone: the rich (although not the super-rich) supported obama over mccain.

The Government is the only entity left that can provide counter-cyclical spending in order to lessen the economic swings.

The Republican plan was to continue to reduce taxes on the wealthiest Americans while squeezing the middle and lower income brackets. Listen to happyrenter, he makes a lot of good points. It is easy to demonize the poor but that does nothing to advance the debate.

"Really? It the rich not paying their "fair share" that got us into the mess? Sounds like you got some class envy issues going on."

I have no class envy issues going on, I now pay more in taxes than I paid for my first house and, while it does feel like a lot, I understand why those taxes are required. There, at least I tied this thread to real estate.

Why don't we talk about the number of Americans who were trying to hide vast amounts of money in order to avoid taxes? The Justice department finally called out UBS, the Swiss bank, on this scam. Why should we allow Americans to hide their money from taxation while earning income in this country?

dwell: "admin: completely agree. Why should I work so hard when the gov takes more & I keep less? I'll work less & pay less tax, so tax revenue decreases."

Your family will love having you around more. Your children's school will benefit from your (additional) volunteer hours, you can visit your mother and father more often, and your spouse may appreciate a more relaxed mate. It's all...MORE...not less.

"Your family will love having you around more. Your children's school will benefit from your (additional) volunteer hours, you can visit your mother and father more often, and your spouse may appreciate a more relaxed mate. It's all...MORE...not less."

Sure, you can write off private school, including private universities, and send your kids to public schools and a public university. You can squeeze into a smaller apartment, maybe a one bedroom or even a studio. You can write off any vacations to Europe or dinners out at nice restaurants. You can give up the car, the parking garage, and the second home in the country.

It is your choice. Nobody forces you to work more. If your company lets you get away with working less than it is all possible.

HR. No, I do not expect children to go around with no shoes. I do expect people who are living off tax dollars and free services to be good stewards of their money. Maybe buy a twenty dollar pair of shoes rather than 120. No, I do not think anyone is entitled to braces or contacts. Glasses yes. teeth care yes... Medicaid covers these. You think money can cure the world's ills. Do you volunteer anywhere or do you just attend cultural events and workout and live in your million dollar rental? You've made your way, now you and others like you want to pull up the ladder.

blossom,

my volunteer activities are irrelevant to this conversation, although if you must know, yes, i do volunteer a lot of my time for various causes. but we aren't talking about volunteering here since by definition volunteering is, well, voluntary. we are talking about the obligations of citizenship.

it's great that you volunteered your time at a free clinic, but that doesn't give you the right to decide what individual people are 'entitled' to. as a society, we've decided that children in the richest major country in the world should be able to have decent teeth. you somehow think that it is pulling up the ladder for us to provide poor children with decent teeth. i think that's the definition of the ladder: providing the necessary basic services across the board that enable each person to function and thrive and hopefully achieve to his or her potential. with hideously crooked teeth and gum disease how far do you think a person can get in our society?

i do not think money can cure the world's ills--unfortunately, 'ills' are part of the human condition. we age, our bodies deteriorate, we die. money does not solve that. but if it doesn't solve your ills any more than it solves anyone else's then why do you care so much about holding on to as much of it as you possibly can? clearly money can help solve some problems, so why shouldn't we use it to help solve those problems?

as for the poor being good stewards of money, this is a very complicated issue. by most measures poor folks are far better stewards of economic resources than the rich simply because they have to be. this does not mean that they don't make strange decisions, just like we all do. fortunately, in a free society we let people make their own decisions even if we find those decisions strange.

> "Yes, all of the people in the lower income brackets want to become rich, and therefore do not ask
> the rich to pay their fair share of taxes."

> Wait...the top 1% pay 40% of all income taxes. They are not paying their fair share?

Ignore happyrenter. He started an entire thread on how we have a regressive tax system, and then went to personal insults when it was documented through multiple sources that he was painfully wrong )it is progressive)

In the bigger picture.... MAN, is Manhattan RE screwed...

Killing the tax deduction for most buyers. OUCH.

nyc10022,

i didn't make the comment that you quoted, so ignoring me is quite irrelevant to it. at least follow the thread if you want to participate in it. and by the way, if you want to ignore me just hit the ignore button, quite easy.

wow a 3% increase in tax is going to end the world!!! How much of this increase could a high income earner offset by looking at this deductions, uping his contributions to 401K's, SEPs, UTMAs, 529's, itemization etc etc.

You are a bunch of whiners who dont want to pay your own way in society. This rate change brings us back to the same rate in the Clinton years. I would love to have the next 8 years like the Clinton years instead of like the Bush years........

thank you petrfitz. personally, i don't see why high income people should get any mortgage deduction whatsoever. why should the federal government subsidize ownership of luxury real estate? but this is at least a start.

happyrenter - $400K per annum may be great income in many places around the world and even in the US but in NYC or at least Manhattan between Chambers and 96 street doesn't cut it when you have a mortgage to pay and kids to send to school [which BTW you need to pay for b/c your tax dollars that go to the public school system are paying for bureaucracy rather then a solid education]. This is the simple fact of life around here and no matter what stats you use you cannot tell me that any $400K earner considers themselves rich!

However, this is not even the point... the point is that the new administrations planned tax changes seem like they are 'evening the playing field' in terms of the richer and poorer classes when in reality they will ultimately hurt the people who can turn our economy around - its not just about the mortgage tax - its all about the sinister policies of the new administration. BTW...I purposely chose the word sinister b/c I know they all took econ 101 and they know exactly what they are doing!

I'd like to add that reading many of these comments shows that there are a lot of people here who don't mind paying more taxes [at least they say so on a blog]. Just raise your hands and tell Uncle Omaba & co that you want to pay more taxes so he can leave the rest of us alone.

also if your "income" as reported on your tax returns is $250K - you really make at least $300K based on just some of easiest pretax and tax free vehicles your employer offers all employees. $350K is you do the most basic tax sheltering. So we are not really talking about families who make $250K getting hit by this increase. We are talking about those who actually make $300K and above.

nba - how else besides paying taxes are we going to support our troops in our global war against terrorism? We need budgets for our military. They need to be the best funded and equipped army on the face of the earth so we can annilate every muslim looking person who we are scared of.

Do you want the terrorists to win?

"ow a 3% increase in tax is going to end the world!!! How much of this increase could a high income earner offset by looking at this deductions, uping his contributions to 401K's, SEPs, UTMAs, 529's, itemization etc etc.

You are a bunch of whiners who dont want to pay your own way in society."

Again, it depends on what you mean by "high income." Take a look at this: http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2009/02/shocking_news_the_middle_class.html

So, to be middle class in NYC (to get a standard of living for a person making $50,000 in Houston), you need to make $123K in Manhattan. Even with that, only a small fraction can afford to buy, and you all know what could be afforded. The point is that Obama's tax will be a significant burden to people making at the low end of $250K who live in Manhattan.

I choose to send my kids to private school, because except for 2-3 extremely competitive public schools, the rest are really bad. I want my kids to get the best education they can, and I put a premium on that. That cost wipes us out, however. I can't put more in my 401K, in fact, I'm pulling more out, as I need the cash on a monthly basis. Combined, my wife and I make 5X what my parents did, and I'm no better off in terms of financial security than they are. I can't save for college for my kids (so forget the 529).

So maybe the "high earners" here can strut about how they nobly pay their taxes, but it isn't the same sweat off their brow. I pay my taxes, and I'm glad to support good things in the nation (the war in Iraq was a terrible dilemma for me, as I thought it was wrong and counterproductive to US interests, yet I was paying for it), but paying those taxes hurts. Those checks leave my stomach feeling like it dropped a mile.

type3 so you are complaining about paying your taxes because you then wont be able to live in Manhattan, go out to dinner every night at the finest restaurants and send your kids to the best private schools in the most expensive city in the world? Boo Hoo. move or make some adjustments.

I want to live on the moon and send my kids to a private martian tutor, but lack of gravity and atmosphere make it impossible.

as the only voice of reason monitoring this discussion, I will add one point of clarification. Current policy is roughly 35% fed 7% state.
proposed:
39.6 plus reduced deductions would net 2% (most estimates, not mine)
10.3% NY State
So we go from combined 42% to combined to 51.9%

That is an increase of 23.6%, not 3% as posted above.

I think it's fine, but I can certainly see the point of some being annoyed by it.

happyrenter - "thank you petrfitz"

WOW, when perfitz is the only person who agreed with you, you know you've lost the argument.

"i didn't make the comment that you quoted"

never said you did.

Just pointing out that your comments about tax policy should be ignored by all, given that you don't understand... well, tax policy.

"I want to live on the moon and send my kids to a private martian tutor, but lack of gravity and atmosphere make it impossible."

That is very, very funny!

Maybe you go to your own private Idaho, it's easy!

You can anchor your private boat in international waters but don't expect any help from the Federal government when a hurricane wipes you off the face of the earth.

"ype3 so you are complaining about paying your taxes because you then wont be able to live in Manhattan, go out to dinner every night at the finest restaurants and send your kids to the best private schools in the most expensive city in the world? Boo Hoo. move or make some adjustments."

Hey, asshole, you don't know shit about my life. I haven't eaten out in months. I haven't gone to movies in months. If I move I must leave one of the best research institutes in the world. I worked my ass off to get there. To commute in would destroy any little time I have to raise my kids. And private school is NOT a luxury here - it's one of the few ways to get your children a decent education (at least by European and Asian standards).

You are a rich fuck who knows nothing and leaves in his money covered walls. Rich boy, stick your faux noble attitude up your ass.

petrfitz, you are the worst kind of "liberal." You swim in money, stand on your soap box to preach about paying your taxes, when it costs you nothing. Some of us actually carry a burden to pay those taxes. You princes are all the same.

Life style adjustments - you really are a shithead to say something like that when you know nothing about a person. In fact, rich boy, the last time I ate out could not have been less than 6 months ago. And i've never payed more than $100 to do so. SO you can use your dollar bill filled brain to figure out how many fancy reastaurants I've been too. If you tell me I have to send my kids to some war zone of a school, or move out and commute in so that I can't even see them, then I say fuck you again.

There are real liberals, and then there is trash like petrfitz.

type3, i might be in your same situation (not super rich like petrfitz), but chose to do the opposite. my kids will go to public school when the time comes and meanwhile i'm saving for retirement and college like there's no tomorrow. i went to a much worse high school than the public school my kids will go to (a very bad one in your view for sure) and still ended up in 2 ivy leagues and did great. having a parent happy to encourage the kid to learn math and science did the trick for me. i'll do the same for my kids.

for me making sure that my kids will graduate debt free and will not have me as a burden (thanks to having enough retirement savings) are priorities number 1. private school is greatly overrated IMHO.

Would be interesting how these new taxes affect the rich liberals in Washington.
How much more taxes will Pelosi, Reid, Dashsle, Hilary

end up paying.. I'm sure they snick a nice little loophole for themselves and their Billionaire friends

Easy, type3, we need your brilliant mind working for us in the research lab. I mean that sincerely, we need good people. Every thread does not have to degenerate into name calling. Yes, high-earners are going to take a hit, but hopefully one that is fair and done in a progressive manner. I think there was unfairness in the current system with the lower brackets in effect transferring wealth to the higher brackets. So, this will change.

I find it somewhat amusing that people on another thread slammed me when I mentioned the high cost of raising a child in Manhattan. Yet, on this thread, it is clear that the cost of private school tuition is causing a lot of pain. The private universities are sitting on huge endowments and are unwilling to lower tuition. Go figure.

" I find it somewhat amusing that people on another thread slammed me when I mentioned the high cost of raising a child in Manhattan. Yet, on this thread, it is clear that the cost of private school tuition is causing a lot of pain."

childcare is the other huge cost in nyc, most young families that i know didn't grow up in the city, so there are no family members around that can help with that. that is not discretionary if both parents need to work. so the mother might not be able to work till kids are in school, that's a huge cost for her career & retirement savings. the private/public school decision for me is a discretionary one, although many middle class parents consider it's not.

in papers about the cost of kids, you see that the biggest one is the need for a bigger house. but many families in nyc deal with it by not paying it (living in a smaller place than it'd be consider acceptable in other parts of the country).

"Would be interesting how these new taxes affect the rich liberals in Washington.
How much more taxes will Pelosi, Reid, Dashsle, Hilary

end up paying.. I'm sure they snick a nice little loophole for themselves and their Billionaire friends"

You're kidding, right? Can you spell "political suicide"? They would be hammered into the ground if that happened, you can be sure of it. Obama has learned his lesson with a couple of those cabinet picks. Everybody will be sending in their tax checks.

"i went to a much worse high school than the public school my kids will go to (a very bad one in your view for sure) and still ended up in 2 ivy leagues and did great. having a parent happy to encourage the kid to learn math and science did the trick for me. i'll do the same for my kids.

for me making sure that my kids will graduate debt free and will not have me as a burden (thanks to having enough retirement savings) are priorities number 1. private school is greatly overrated IMHO."

I came out of public school in Alabama, which the only good thing you can say about it, is "thank God for Mississippi." I was literally correcting my math teachers in high school on a regular basis. I vowed I would do better by my kids. So, perhaps I do have a complex about it.

"Easy, type3, we need your brilliant mind working for us in the research lab. I mean that sincerely, we need good people. Every thread does not have to degenerate into name calling."

Yes, mea culpa, but somethings are just so button pushing. I went into science ti "change the world". My brother with his 4000 sq ft, big 529 for his kids, and relaxed lifestyle can't understand why I don't just take a job at a biotech somewhere affordable. It's hard to explain that if I do that, I will throw away a chance to do research like nowhere else - this isn't just for me, but I feel it is burying one's talents in the ground, if you know the parable. Personally, I never wanted to live in the city, I'm a rural kind of person. I'm not here for the fancy life. I don't even like it. I am also infected with the American dream, and watch so many of my friends and relatives living it (even in this downturn, and so much before), knowing I am giving so much of it up. So someone telling me I'm a cry baby because I want to spend money at glitzy restaurants who knows nothing about me,well, if he were at a bar, I'd ask him to step outside. (my trailer trash core self coming out, I suppose).

But I've spectacled myself enough for a few months, I suppose. Apologies to all offended. Except petrfitz. Still want to step outside with that one.

One of my friends who has prostate cancer was saved by a world class treatment center in Manhattan, where they do a surgical procedure that is done in very few places in the world. People from all over fly in for the procedure while my friend had to travel just a few blocks. Yet, my friend complains about the city all of the time, the cost of it, the noise, his inability to buy an apartment or move into something nicer, etc. I certainly understand the cost pressures, I struggle to stay here like everyone else. I hope that Manhattan can offer the world some unique opportunities, like your opportunity to work in a top flight medical research center and do outstanding work.

ok so Type3 let me get this straight - now you are saying that you dont want to pay taxes because you want to live in manhattan within shirt commuting distance of your job that love and is probably publically funded and you wont take a different job that pays more, and send your kids to private school which you say isnt a luxury even though NY City has some of the best schools in the country in their public school system?

So you want your cake, eat it and not pay for it?

You are calling me an elitist? my kids will use the public school system. I realize that living in Manhattan near my job is a LUXURY. You are a crying moron.

Would you be willing to pay less taxes if the government said that they would stop funding any research and research and equipment going forward would be 100% privately funded?

c'mon be serious.

HR. I never said that people should run around in rags and no shoes. Nor did I say that they should have to live with gum disease. I do think braces are a cosmetic luxury for the most part and I think that we, as a country, do need to provide "necessary basic services" but only to those that truly need it. If you have money to buy 120 dollar shoes, braces, contacts, jewelry, designer clothes etc then you have enough money to feed, clothe and provide insurance for yourself.
I think I struck a nerve with the volunteering. . . do you go to fancy 1k plate dinners and call that volunteering? HAHA.

Admin. I am also a product of public school and started my older children out in public school. We made the change to private school. I'm not sure how old your children are but wonder if you will not be doing the same after a few years.

My Neice just graduated from NEST in NYC public school system. she got into every school she applied to and ended up going to one of the top universities in the country on a full ride with housing.

Type3 private school is only a necessity if you are too lazy to actually try to succeed in one of the best public school systems in the world.

Type3 - you are in a similar position to my parents. They were "middle-class" and spent huge amounts of money (no financial aid available) to send my sibs & me to a great private school, even though we were already enrolled in the top public schools for our area. We were by far, the poorest kids in the school. I can't say that where I am today would be significantly different had I gone to public instead.

"I can't say that where I am today would be significantly different had I gone to public instead. " - I guess a laid off broke banker with a public school education is worth the same as a laid off broke private school banker

407PAS: "Sure, you can write off private school, including private universities, and send your kids to public schools and a public university. You can squeeze into a smaller apartment, maybe a one bedroom or even a studio. You can write off any vacations to Europe or dinners out at nice restaurants. You can give up the car, the parking garage, and the second home in the country."

Funny...you just described my life.
Except, I do eat at nice restaurants (especially during Restaurant Week-which has been extended); I bring my own wine-willing to pay corkage; eat during lunch-smaller portions show up on my scale; etc.

And the smaller apartment-best thing that ever happen. Gave away treasures to family members who were going to receive them anyway.

oh yeah also remember Type 3 deems it necessary to educate their children to "European or Asian" standards. Doesnt Europe have significantly higher tax rates than the US????? Maybe that is why their education is better???

Hehe. You think I'm a "laid off broke banker" - hmm, nice.

no NYC100223 we all believe that you are Hugh Heffner and Warrne Buffet combined.

Let's not test out the Glasgow Coma Scale with fighting outside of bars. New York does not need to do this little piece of medical research because Glasgow, Scotland, already has this covered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_coma_scale

The trouble with unconsciousness is that it is hard to tell whether you need to get a gurney or a shovel, as one of my friends put it. The Glasgowegians, or whatever they call themselves, did the necessary research for us and came up with a handy coma scale. Lots of alcohol induced fighting gave them plenty of subjects.

oh yeah also remember Type 3 deems it necessary to educate their children to "European or Asian" standards. Doesnt Europe have significantly higher tax rates than the US????? Maybe that is why their education is better???
_____

I've lived in socialized Europe and their quality of life is so much superior than the United States, as is their near 90% literacy rate.

I don't think the poor should get braces, cell phones, food stamps/ATM cards to McDonalds, etc, at the expense of taxpayers. NYU is raising tuition and obama is reducing student subsidy loan...nice way to backstab the students who voted for him.

Obama needs to put these lazy (generally) people back in work. Pick up a garbage or clean up the highway or roads. Do something for godsake, instead of shoving their hands at the rest of us.

as opposed to the really industrious uber rich who make their money from the dividends from the wealth their great grand father created?

petrfitz,
I remember you screaming bush's name about billions of deficit, though FHA Clinton flushed down every american down to the toilet today. Bush's billion is not bad compare to Obama's trillions only a month into the office.

hmm "Obama's trillions?" so less than 1 mont into his term where he was handed trillions in deficits and a near depression it is already his "Trillions??"

I bet that you are also one of those guys who said 9/11 wasnt Bush's fault because it was only 9 months into his first term and it was actually Clintons fault?

Can someone please tell me how the Pres. reverting back to the Clinton-era tax codes spells doom for the high earners?

I was doing extremely well under Bill Clinton's "socialism" and if I remember correctly, the country was also doing much better.

Poor kids should definitely get braces on the taxpayer's back. No question. I always cringe when I see a young adult with horrible teeth (and probably lots of cavities too because of the misaligned, overlapping teeth) and I can just see this person not having the confidence ever to smile. Not only that, they'll break themselves financially later on by getting dental implants.

The issue is that braces are too darned expensive. The dental licensure bodies ensure a monopoly by tightly controlling numbers. Flood the market with well-trained immigrant dentists, and problem solved. You think the elites of Asia & Latin America don't get braces for their kids?

"The truth is that most people will never become rich."

But what is "rich"? Many here think that if you live in Manhattan & take home $200K after taxes, you're "rich".

Nba:
no matter what stats you use you cannot tell me that any $400K earner considers themselves rich!
Exactly

Blossom:
"Its difficult to see your tax dollars and your volunteer time away from your family being spent on people who abuse the system............I do expect people who are living off tax dollars and free services to be good stewards of their money. Maybe buy a twenty dollar pair of shoes rather than 120. No, I do not think anyone is entitled to braces or contacts."

Blossom, I agree. Bless you for volunteering.

"you will work less in order to pay less taxes? that's the most self-defeating attitude i've ever heard."
Not self defeating: the extra effort is not worth the monetary gain

jgr:
"How about we don't ask because it's not the Government who is going to get us through this difficult time. This type of logic by socialists is just amazing. Did the New Deal do anything to solve the Great Depression? No, of course not, we didn't emerge from it until WW2."

Right!!! My grandparents worked on the Work Projects (they were poor & lived in cold water flats in the Bronx) & they said MANY times that WW2 ended the Depression, not Works Projects. Works Projects gave people jobs, but didn't end the Dep.

"in the united states, median household income is $48,000."
We're talking NY/Manhattan here, not Oshkosh.

"fortunately i am not alone: the rich (although not the super-rich) supported obama over mccain."
No, even super rich limousine libs voted for Obama. I believe Lenin would have called them 'useful idiots'.

"by most measures poor folks are far better stewards of economic resources than the rich simply because they have to be."
Wowser!! Could not disagree more. If they were such good stewards, they wouldn't be poor, no? Read what blossom wrote about the people in the clinic: $120 sneakers & gold teeth. Now I see your ideology; unfortunately, there's no point in discussing this with you beyond this post. Too bad, because I think you're a bright guy, HappyR & I like reading your posts. But you & me, we just disagree.

nba:
"Just raise your hands and tell Uncle Omaba & co that you want to pay more taxes so he can leave the rest of us alone."
If only!! Please, anyone who wants to, add an extra $10K, $20K or more to yr Fed, State & local tax payments.

Patient:
"as the only voice of reason monitoring this discussion, I will add one point of clarification. Current policy is roughly 35% fed 7% state. 
proposed: 
39.6 plus reduced deductions would net 2% (most estimates, not mine) 
10.3% NY State 
So we go from combined 42% to combined to 51.9%
That is an increase of 23.6%, not 3% as posted above."

Thank you, Patient: We're over talking 23%, not 3%. 3% is fine, 23% is too much.
Right: total combined 51.9%

type3
"Rich boy, stick your faux noble attitude up your ass."
Amen, type3. I so agree!!

Petrefiz,
Clinton created this mess, Obama/Clinton administrative is handling it now with TRILLIONS of Deficit.
I am not a bush fan but I have a good feeling that Obama is going to be the worst president ever with Bush right over it.

ba294 - how did Clinton create this mess? dont even try to speak about Glass stiegal act.

FHA -> housing mess? where have you been the past decade?

I do not believe in 0% down, more so with -5% down. But someone had to scream that the poor deserves to own a home. Now we are in this mess.

*yawn*

My parents together earn like 1.7mm per year, and my dad told me their taxes will go up by approx. $65,000 in 2010.

They also voted for Obama.

Yea so that means it the end of the world since they will now be poor and won't be able to live a great lifestyle. How ridiculous. Fools.

ba294 - so you are saying it is the poor people who bought home's fault for our economic meltdown?

You are saying the poor people are more repsonsible for this mess than the wall street execs who pushed the bad loans then knowingly created exponential exposure to these bad loans by the derivative investments they also pushed?

i cannot believe that people are still crying poor with incomes about 200k per year and that many of you even dispute that 400k per year is not rich. don't you understand that living in manhattan is a personal choice, not an entitlement? if you can't afford the lifestyle you want to have here then you can get up and move somewhere else. believe me, 400k per year is plenty to pay movers.

as for this idea that you need to send your kids to private school, there is so much wrong with that i don't know where to start. first it is a choice, and one that is not available to 95% or more of the population. but second, the reason you feel that you have to send your kids to private school is that the public schools are bad. yet you complain about tax increases that would go in part to making them better. why should we leave more money in your pocket for a gold-plated education for your kids rather than spread the money around and try to make public education better for everyone?

someone said that the poor are not good stewards of their income and that's why they are poor. i hope this is a joke. poverty is defined by your income not by how you choose to spend it. if you earn $10k per year in this country you are poor no matter how you steward that 10k. i've been close to poor and i've been rich and i can tell you straight out that i was a much better steward of my meager resources in near poverty than i am of my surplus of wealth now.

and blossom, you think you hit a nerve by asking me whether i volunteer? yes, you did. i find it absolutely appalling for people to try to get themselves off the hook for their obligations as members of society be claiming that they volunteer. volunteering is wonderful. it's great that the president spends thanksgiving helping out at a soup kitchen (i do too before having dinner with my family). but just because you voluntarily do whatever it is you do does not reduce your obligations as a member of our society.

ba294,

and I have a good feeling you're an idiot.

Clinton caused this mess? Yea, OK.

thank you, desgarcons, for a moment of sanity here. cry me a river people. there are people starving to death--starving--out there and people are complaining because their tax bill will go up a bit and reduce their ability to live in luxury in one of the most expensive and coveted cities in the world--not just in the city, but in the borough of their choice. where are the violins?

Petrfitz,
yes that is exactly what i said.
The poor group purchased what they couldn't afford, took out an equity, spent, underwater, exect shuffled bad loans, US meltdown. There ya go, a quick summary.

I am saying this FHA loan was the root of all these problems. I personally think these wall street execs should be jailed and punished, starting with AIG.

"thank you, desgarcons, for a moment of sanity here. cry me a river people. there are people starving to death--starving--out there and people are complaining because their tax bill will go up a bit and reduce their ability to live in luxury in one of the most expensive and coveted cities in the world--not just in the city, but in the borough of their choice. where are the violins?"

Yes, many starving to death and we need to issue free cell phones and braces to the poor.

nope what we really need to do is protect your right to eat at jean georges.

and can we just be clear here: braces are preventive medicine not cosmetic luxuries.

i agree with 599 that BA294 you are an idiot

ba294 is in the camp that the government should not pay for braces for the poor but should pay for a road that leads only to his country house and they better well plow it all winter long!

"ba294 is in the camp that the government should not pay for braces for the poor but should pay for a road that leads only to his country house and they better well plow it all winter long!"

lol petrfitz, i'm a big fan of yours!

HR,,petr. whats with you girls, who gives a crap if someone living in NY making 10mm per year just realized that their taxes may go up by $990,000 next year. If they want to whine and say it's unfair, that they already pay their fair share, let them whine, who gives a fuck. As long as they pay. I will throw the upper earners a bone and give them that. Yes you can whine all you want, just no tax evasion! No different than the food stamp crowd whining that they can't buy beer with food stamps. As long as we continue to give them food stamps, let them whine. I am too busy working 10 hours a day and paying my taxes to care what either end of the spectrum cares about.

"Yes, many starving to death and we need to issue free cell phones and braces to the poor."

Yup, it's true: Saw an ad on TV: if you are a food stamp recipient in NYC, you are entitled to a cell phone!!

maybe it is an antiterrorism thing? You know see something say something. Dwell do you want the terrorists to win?

Yeah, now they can text it in: "I C trorist"

Dwell what is worse getting a cell phone while on welfare or getting a tax rebate on the interest paid on the mortgage on your second home vacation property?

lol, so true! i thought that a good biz enterprise is to invent any kind of device for the elderly and poor and offer it to nyc. taxpayers cannot get enough of those gadgets!

They both stink.

There are already low cost land line phone programs for the needy. Why do they need cell phones?

We need some common sense: cell phones for welfare recipients is ridiculous. They need jobs, so they can earn $ & pay for their own cell phones.

how much do you people think these cell phones cost? ten bucks?

"There are already low cost land line phone programs for the needy. Why do they need cell phones?"

maybe it is now cheaper to give them cell phones than it is to maintain the land line cables inside of public housing? hmm but understanding that would require you to think a little and not outright hate poor people.

Right: I hate poor people.

Dude, my parents grew up dirt poor in the Bronx. They didn't make $ via gov hand outs. They worked their butts off.

no government handouts for your parents? interesting. they didn't send you to public school? they didn't rely on the police for protection? they didn't rely on the FDA to provide them with safe food? they didn't rely on the US military to defend the country from attack?

seems to me that we all rely on government handouts.

dwell - i have a black friend so I am not a racist.

or excuse me, they didnt attend public school? you said they grew up poor, not that you grew up poor.

by the way, how exactly did your dirt poor grandparents make it through the depression? no work relief? no soup kitchens? if not, then they weren't dirt poor.

Oh yes, here we go: typical lib: If you disagree w/ a lib you're a racist.

Buhbye

lol dwell are you illiterate? who called you a racist?

and typical conservative calling up some apocryphal story of some acquaintance who made it with no help from anyone.

i wasnt calling him a racist i was calling him on his lame - my parents were poor so i know ...statement. that holds as much water as my i know a black guy....

Long time lurker, but just had to jump in because I found this conversation so fascinating.

1. Whether tax rates are "high" or "low" is a normative description. That is, it's more a matter of personal belief of what the "right" level of taxation is. Calling each other names and coming up with lots of strawmen to beat down is not going to change anyone's mind on this topic.

2. That said, not sure why anyone is shocked that some people are annoyed with paying more taxes. The reality is that most people are going to be annoyed because it's less money in their pocket. Even if you can think of all sorts of good reasons for raising taxes (and there are many), it still has to be at least a little annoying living in a high tax jurisdication to be asked to pay even more taxes. So you may not agree with the way people are feeling, but you can empathize with them. Let people vent - it's good for their mental health. :-)

3. My single biggest problem with paying more taxes is not that taxes, it's that I have near zero confidence that the resulting funds will be used properly. Govts at all levels already do a crappy job managing the budgets that they do have, and their usual solution is to simply ask for even more resources. Most organizations (including nonprofits) could never operate this way, because if you are incompetent, no client or customer is going to give you their business and no donor or investor will continue to fund you. Unfortunately, the government doesn't have to operate by these rules.

4. To point number 3, I wonder if you could have tax legislation that says, taxes will go up, but the revenue will be kept in trust unless the govt. hits performance targets x,y, and z. I know it's a pipe dream, but one can hope! :-)

belisarius - do you think that the US has the best and greatest military in the world?