Landlord reconsidering lease because we work in finance

tell him to go hang himself.

I'm guessing that LL won't want to go through this process with another tenant. I wouldn't go quite as far as totally, but if this is a big deal for you, I'd politely decline. On the other hand, if getting a cosigner is no skin off your back, you could always go back to the broker and tell him you'll do it...for a (5, 10, 20% - pick a and number) reduction in rent.

the owner is being a knucklehead!!!!
I would rent/sell to you in a second

follow mr doe above--great opening for you to renegotiate even without cosigning. "strange you should bring all this up, because we've been having some concerns as well...looks like the market has dropped significantly since we started this process, etc."

offer a full year rent in exchange for two free months.

I call BS on your post:

You said: "Now we make over 60x rent in our base salaries"

So, even if your rent was $3k per month that would equal $180k per month or $2.16mm per year in BASE SALARY

If that is true, you are a Master of the Universe and should have better things to do than post on this site @ 2am

Um, no, Apt_Boy, if the rent is $3k they would be making $180k per YEAR. That is how these things are calculated, and you're usually required to make 40 times the rent. They are in a strong position.

Steve, if landlord has your money and you have a lease, isn't it a bit late to start bringing up concerns of this nature? I'd tell him no, we have an agreement and even if one of us gets laid off we are able to pay the rent.

They mean 60X Monthly rent, in NYC they usually look for 45x.

The LL should have thought of this prior to accepting your money, that said you can't blame him for having second thoughts. Perhaps offering him an additional months security would alleviate his fears.

why not up the rent while you're at it?

steve123, that's terrible, I am really sorry, awful! do you really want to rent from someone that discriminates like that?

The landlord should be grateful somebody want to f'ng rent the place. Really. You're doing the ll a favor in this market.

Why would you want to up the rent? A suggestion of extra security offers the owner the peace of mind perhaps he's looking for. You could negotiate to have security put in a cd or MM. My suggestion is geared towards saving the deal and preventing the owner from kicking it.

I don't agree with the owners position but as stated by OP it is fact.

Sounds like the owner is concerned you won't pass the board, which would automatically negate your lease. From what you've revealed about your financials you appear to be in a strong position, so this development does seem odd. But boards (even in condos) can be finicky animals...

Not sure why he would bring this up at this point in the process.
He has signed the lease, and the broker was going to fax it over when he called me about this. So I don't have the signed lease yet, which is probably how he thinks he can still get away with these games.

It actually has nothing to do with the board as the broker has re-iterated that the board in this building is easy, "a formality", and even on the call where he brought up my occupation said "we are still sure you will pass the board so don't worry about that, this has nothing to do with them".

As far as giving him more money.. between 2 months down, security deposit, brokers fee and condo fees.. I've put over 5x monthly rent down on this stupid place and do not want to tie up any more in a rental apartment. Especially in this market, I can't believe the gall.

The rent is pretty good, was on market a month and took 10% cut from previous rent before I took it. At the current price, I don't see anything quite comparable that I'd want. Of course this market does seem to continue to be in a free fall, so I'm not sure he'd be able to rent it without it sitting empty 1-2 more months and having to be chopped 10% a few more times.

As far as cosigners, I could get my parents, but really its annoying and would probably be annoying for them. Not to mention embarrassing for me. This is less money than our current rent, and we have a 3 year rental history in NY. Why do I need to go back to my parents now and ask them to sign papers for me.

JohnDoe- Have you actually heard of that before, can people get the landlord to drop rent a bit due to the extra security of a cosigner?

Apt_Boy - Thanks.

"between 2 months down, security deposit,"

So you already have a total of three months with LL. You are paying the broker, he should be advising the LL that your application is solid based on what you have disclosed here and that anyone could lose their job....

In a condo the board only has "right of first refusal" so if they did decline your app. they would be obligated to rent it from LL at same rent.

Steve, you do not have a contract with the landlord without having a signed lease in your hands. You can walk from the deal simply by rescinding your signature, as is your right until a countersigned copy is returned to you.

That being said, the owner is probably simply worried. Is this a relatively recent purchase? If so, the owner is worried about the property being underwater, needing your rent to pay the mortgage, etc. He/she is worried you lose your job, stop paying the rent, requiring eviction, etc. Basically, all sorts of random worries. That being said, I don't think you want to leave any more money with them: e.g., if they are foreclosed upon 3 months from now, what happens, etc. Again, random worries but from your side.

Do they know that you have 10x rent in cash right now? I would personally tell them that there isn't anyone you feel comfortable asking to cosign, reiterate your financial picture, explain how much money you are committing upfront, and politely explain that they've had a signed lease and checks for 2 weeks now and are dragging their feet, and you will be revoking your signature and walking away if you don't have a countersigned lease by Monday.

Dare I ask, but why on earth would you go through the hassle of renting from a condo owner? Why deal even peripherally with a co-op board?

Honestly, if it were me, I would never even consider this type of arrangement. I'd far prefer to work with a rental mgmt company than deal with an individual condo or co-op owner and the attendant headaches involved.

sorry -- meant condo board not co-op board in first sentence.

Two reasons for me: higher quality and better value.

steve123, I have to run and meet my sister, but I believe this is ILLEGAL and you have a Fair Housing complaint.

If the landlord had said you didn't financially qualify because you didn't meet their income test, that would have been fine; telling you your occupation isn't the right occupation -- that's against the law in NYC for sales, and I believe, rentals.

I can't believe your broker didn't know this, we have to take classes on this.

Sorry I don't have time to look this up and make sure rentals are protected, but call 311 and tell them you think you have a Fair Housing complaint and the city will tell you.

A little more info here: http://www.nyc.gov/html/cchr/

I will check back here later this afternoon when I have more time. Good luck!

ali r.
{downtown broker}

My understanding is that condo boards have only a right of first refusal to rent the apartment at the stated rate. It seems highly unlikely that the condo board will exercise that right in this case and in this rental environment. I agree that you should offer one month extra security deposit since it's really no skin off your back. You want to have an amicable relationship with your LL and that would be a small concession as a way of addressing his doubts. With four months of payments effectively in advance, the LL should theoretically be able to evict you without incurring a loss, were you to hypothetically miss a rent payment.

Good point Ali.

If the landlord does not rent to you, then my suggestion is to rent from a corporation. They don't care what their tenants do for a living since they have so many of them.

ali r. is absolutely right. You have a very good case. However, the owner will claim that he never said anything of the sort and that the broker made it up.

I'm with columbia on this one >"strange you should bring all this up, because we've been having some concerns as well...looks like the market has dropped significantly since we started this process, etc."

TOUCHE. F 'em nicely!

Why would you go to housing court against a LL you haven't rented from? Won't you be discriminated against by other LLs who check the record? At least that is what I've read in the NYTimes.

the best thing to do is to just move on. Meanwhile, you need a place to live NOW and court takes years. So your not going to accomplish anything, unless your goal is to make a statement.

I thought that what you do for a living is a protected class in NY, thus violating his rights.

If you believe you have a good deal, simply tell the broker no. New York is full of bullying landlords (and management companies). Like any bully, they often back down when they are challenged. Given the current market, I gotta believe a bird in the hand is worth it for them.

I'm no expert on housing law, but claiming protected class as a worker in the financial services industry would be one of the bigger stretches out there. The housing court takes statutory intent as a factor and I doubt this is what they had in mind. Finally the LL has a good argument that he is simply protecting his interests by showing concern for a renter's financial solvency. Don't even go down this road.

I don't think you are going to lose out by saying no. Neither with the landlord or with the condo. In any case, the suggestions to turn this around are quite wise. The owner/landlord, who presumably doesn't have a big portfolio of properties, is going to lose out on some serious cash flow if this doesn't work out with you - has to find another renter, deal with another month or two of vacancy * whatever the monthly rent is. Condo owners are in a tough spot if they are trying to rent now.

by the way, you actually paid two months rent up front and a security deposit? That's nuts, I didn't know that anyone actually in NYC had the balls to ask for first and last. And why would you concede it? And why would you pay a fee if you weren't getting free months? You didn't negotiate well at all.

AND, when renting in a condo or a co-op, the lease is subject to the board. But, you should get the signed lease before it is submitted to the condo or co-op, so that the owner can't renegotiate like he's trying to do, the lease is only subject to the condo or co-op board. IE, the owner should have signed the lease and you not obtaining it was a big error (which raises the question of why the broker didn't act properly here either).
Also, I have rented in a condo so I know what I'm taking about. I insisted that I have an out if the consent by the condo board was not obtained within 2 weeks (which was shorter than the condo allowed time) so I put the onus on the owner to push it through - owner said he had a good relationship with the board and so I insisted he put his money where his mouth was. You can always waive the provision, but after some reasonable period of time you should be free to look elsewhere, not be held up indefinitely or for what a condo board thinks is reasonable that may not jibe with your residency requirements.

the good news is that it is not too late for you to incorporate all of these suggestions. with luck, you can save enough money for one hell of a vacation.

AND, there are certain "standard" provisions in the standard forms of lease that you should resist including the provision that allows the owner to increase your rent if his maintenance goes up (the point being that you negotiated a rent, and the owner's costs are the owner's problem) and definitely the provision that allows the owner to terminate the lease if he _simply intends_ to sell the apartment.

frankly, with all I know, I should be a rental broker because I'd represent you well in relation to the 7.5% fee I'd presumably collect. I do believe that for specialized situations (e.g. renting in a nice condo) a renter-side broker can be helpful to people who don't know the market well (this contrasts to the broker representing the owner).

pmg, it's not housing court, it's a complaint you make to the City that gets processed through an administrative law judge, and you do it because discrimination is illegal and wrong -- or as the city code says, "menace its institutions."

What's more, when you read OP's story, he/she is clearly getting jacked around by this landlord, who has already signed the lease, for heaven's sake. The story just made me want poor OP to have justice.

The law used to read something about occupation, I think because landlords wouldn't rent to lawyers for fear of getting sued, but it now reads "lawful source of income" -- and attempt to stop discrimination against tenants who were using section 8 housing vouchers. But it's there, and I read the law, it does apply to renters. So OP has a case if he/she wants to pursue it, or just raise the specter of pursuing it in order to get the apartment.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

ali---know you're trying to help but it seems like the poor guy just wants to rent the apartment and move on.

as noted earlier, if you're (OP) up to it try to get some price concessions, otherwise try to close and finally get ready to move on. hard to believe it is worth all this aggravation for you.

steve123;
It's a slippery slope, obvious they are dirt bags, what next, cameras in the apt. Tell them to fuck off. Have your checks back by sundown. Tell them you would reconsider under new terms of your own including a lower rent. Tell owner you want 3 years worth of cancelled checks proving he paid RE taxes in a timely manner. If he has a mortgage on the building, you want letter from mortgage company proving timely payment. You want notarized letter from heating oil company saying he is a good customer. And five letters of reference from existing tenants.

patient09 - awesome.

And don't forget to do a criminal background check on your landlord...

Ali is right, telling you your occupation isn't the right occupation is against the law in NYC. In fact it's wrong for them to ask "what do you do for living?", they can only ask "who do you work for?"

Just politely remind the broker on the deal about ocupational descrimination law and watch. He will take care of the owner's conserns, just to avoid losing his license, cause City and Dept.of State take this very seriously.

elena
(broker)

Interestingly, patient09 isn't completely off base in the question about a letter from the bank about the mortgage. One thing the renter is at risk of is a foreclosure - the bank will have you out. So interestingly, condo owners who own their apartment from years back vs. condo owners who just purchased or are in a new development are a better risk. Honestly though, once you go down this path, it is a slippery slope to maintain any relationship with a landlord. I had a good relationship, maintained things fairly, only sought his repair of things when truly warranted (vs. minor things the building staff could handle), forwarded his mail, etc. and at the end of the day got the security deposit back within 3 days of vacating. So yes, you do want a good relationship, and it can be a gamble but this is definitely an indicator that things might not be so perfect down the road (on the other hand, if you pay throughout, there may be no concern, especially since you were foolish enough to pay 2 months in advance plus security plus broker fee).

This is a renters' market? Why are you even worried?

The lawful occupation protection provision was put in to protect for example, lawyers who landlords usually fear are likely to be more litigious and people whose jobs require unusual hours (e.g. musicians). The reason at base for this owner's concerns are financial, not occupational and it is a pretty easy argument to make from his side.

If I am a LL twelve months ago and a potential tenant who works in real estate securitization approaches me, don't I have a right to be concerned about whether they will be able to pay their rent for a year? It's not because I hate on securitizers but because I know that this field will not exist in the short term. I.e. I am concerned about the ability of the tenant to pay. What if it was December and the person worked for Bernie Madoff or was a lawyer for Dreier LLP?

no it's not financial. Financialy steve123 has 60x rent as a salary. Already paid 2 months and 1 month security. he will have to cover 9 month worth of rent. Even if, God forbid, he loses his job tomorrow, he has in the bank 10x the rent. What else does this LL needs?

elena
(broker)

Salary depends upon having a job. Further, how much of salary is bonus?

I'm not defending the LL. I'm trying to stop people from encouraging others to waste time and money on weak legal claims.

I'm not suing anyone, not worth the hassle and ill-will.. and the only evidence is my word of what the broker claims the LL said - shakey.

LL is out of town, which is why I didn't get a countersigned lease immediately.
I was expecting one via fax around the time I got this phone call.
Clearly I should have been firmer with certain things / negotiated further / etc.

Though what I have seen is that properly-priced units are actually moving pretty quickly once they get a price cut. This was the second apartment we tried to put an app on. We missed the previous one by a matter of a few hours. Called 18 hours after the open house and it was gone. Not particularly the best excuse, but it is difficult for both of us to take time off during the weekday to see apartments, and after having the first apartment disappear so quickly, we weren't sure we really had as much leverage in this market as some have been claiming.

Malthus - the salary breakdown is in the original post. 60x is base, 10x in bonus. Have 10x in the bank, LL has 3x out of us already. Move-in is still several weeks out, and if this all falls through the old apartment lease goes well past the schedule move-in (fortunately/unfortunately).

As far as quasi-rationalizing that what the LL is doing as reasonable-
What professions pay enough for someone to be renting in a manhattan condo, and isn't in trouble. This is a recession, advertising, journalists, financial services, consultants, lawyers and real estate are all getting hit and thats probably about 25% of all jobs in manhattan. Financial services jobs alone are supposed to be 12% I believe..

Additionally we are a two-earner household, where each of our total incomes would have just about qualified for the typical 40x rent standard on our own.

can feel your pain...good luck with all of this.

most interesting comment of all:

Though what I have seen is that properly-priced units are actually moving pretty quickly once they get a price cut. This was the second apartment we tried to put an app on. We missed the previous one by a matter of a few hours.

Take photos when you move in & after you move out in case there is any nonsense about giving you back your deposit; otherwise, you haven't given the LL anything upfront that he won't get eventually so don't let people give you a hard time. I hope this works out for you. Let's all put out good energy so that this apartment comes to fruition. Bon chance!