building at 72 Berry Street

miannucci,

I haven't visited yet, but have checked out listings and know the area quite well. First, it's a great location, on a beautiful block; the conversion looks pretty good (from the outside and website details at least); and, the small, boutique feel fits in well with the neighborhood. That said, I think the floorplans are pretty awful, and the asking prices are way too high. Too many units have "home offices" instead of additional bedrooms, which really should impact the value, but that's not accurately reflected in pricing. Now I can see buyers who do really need the work-live combination getting excited about these, but I don't think that buyer base is strong enough to sustain the pricing here at all. Williamsburg is still pretty "artsy" but it's past its peak as a true artists' community, and most of them could not afford these prices anyway. I think the developers made some pretty significant miscalculations on this, in spite of the fact that they seem to have done a really nice job with the building itself.

I think they probably have to call those "home offices" instead of bedrooms because of legal restrictions (perhaps the egress is at a lot line). They are pretty clearly meant to be second bedrooms.

bjw, nice realistic assessment.

miannucci, the fact is that all apartments in Williamsburg will be cheaper in 12 months than they are today. So unless you like to spend lots of money and take losses on investments for fun, there's absolutely no reason to buy today. It's insane.

I do concede, however, that if you enjoy losing money on investments, then more power to you. There are also a number of amazing bridges in New York, which are currently priced to go! My inside sources tell me that these bridges have hit bottom and are likely to be worth much more in 12 months. If you're looking for a bridge, now is really the time to buy! You're probably a long-term bridge investor, right? So these short term swings don't really matter. I have some beautiful ones on the east side and also a couple on the west side. Some are even getting remodeled with brand new toll booths designed by Phillip Stark. Trust me, these things are going fast, my friend. You should really consider buying. Hit me up in the comments for some exclusive showings.

driggs11211,

Your snark is misplaced. It is not a "fact" that all apartments in Williamsburg will be cheaper in 12 months; it's an opinion. I think prices will come down, but not in every single apartment - some will sell, some will be taken off the market, and some are already priced lower. It's posts like these that really show when someone has a clear-cut agenda. You should be very careful with any purchase, in any kind of market, but silly to make those kinds of comments.

ctrlatdel,

I think you're right, some of them will be used as bedrooms, but frankly, when you're buying in a new development at these prices, you don't expect to compromise on having bedroom windows. There has to be a commensurate tradeoff, and right now there isn't.

bjw, I'm seriously saying that I think you're giving a realistic assessment here.

See the other Williamsburg thread for my argument about how I disagree with you on your other point. I do think that ALL properties in Williamsburg will be worth less in 12 months.

Here's another example of a completely accurate blanket statement: ALL stocks are worth less right now than they were 12 months ago.

If you're trying to say that somebody might miss out on their dream home because it will come off the market, rather than drop in price. I'd have to disagree with you on that as well. It's pretty hard to argue that any particular Williamsburg condo is some unique dream home. It's a bunch of cookie cutter condos. You'll be able to find something very similar (or exactly the same) in the future.

I believe that there is absolutely no valid rationale to purchase a property in Williamsburg today.

My biggest gripe with these places--the lack of windows. I believe that points to ctrlaltdel's point--I don't think you can call a bedroom a bedroom unless it has a window.

Driggs11211--I agree with bjw, you're such a sh!t talker. SKF--March 3, 2008, price approximately $121.50; March 2, 2009, approximately $195.84. There you go, one stock that is not lower today than it was in 2008. And I'm sure I can find others.

i didn't really look at the rest of the renderings, but it doesn't look like anything special.

driggs11211, i'm closing on a condo in williamsburg, i disagree re: "no valid rationale to purchase now" but that's for another thread.

driggs,

I know you were serious. I was talking about your second and third paragraphs. I think it's fair to say you've got a pretty clear agenda about Williamsburg real estate. Let's try to be as honest and realistic as possible instead.

"It's a bunch of cookie cutter condos."

Strongly disagree with this. Why do you choose to live here then? Why are you even interested in real estate in the neighborhood then?

Williamsburg is a great neighborhood. That's why I choose to live here. That doesn't mean that real estate prices here are not going to crash.

I think Williamsburg is great, and when the prices drop by half in the next 18 months, it will be a good time to buy here. Until then, I would advocate renting. You're still going to get a much better value/price deal here in Williamsburg than in the neighborhoods around 14th St. in Manhattan.

Regarding all these new condos, there's nothing so special about any of them that you wouldn't be able to find in 18 months. That's my point. All modern NYC condos below the super-luxury level must be cookie cutter to some extent. It's not economically feasible to develop these buildings otherwise. Yes, all the new condos will have the same modern bathrooms with similar features. You might like the aesthetic of one a little more than another, but it's not going to be hugely different in whatever your price range is. Same with kitchens. Overall, there are an insane amount of new construction buildings all over Williamsburg, and there will be plenty of very similar options to purchase in 18 months, except it's extremely likely that the prices will be drastically lower.

I think objectively it's not worth buying now with the probability of a real estate crash because you like the color of the bathroom tile more than other places. If you think those private rooftop cabanas aren't going to be on fire sale in 18 months, I disagree. If you think you won't be able to find place very near the Bedford stop in 18 months, I disagree. If you think you won't be able to find a fancy dishwasher or washer/dryer in 18 months, I disagree. What exactly are you going to miss out on if you wait to buy a place a right now?

In any case, none of these real estate points have anything to do with why I live in Williamsburg. It's a great neighborhood. But there's no way it's worth the current prices on these condos. So I rent until the prices drop. That's what I advocate other should do as well.

I don't know. The floorplan are ok, but it's hard to judge from the renderings.

the floorplans don't look too great...there's something awkward about them but of course you never know until you see them in real life. With regard to home offices, they must be called home offices (as opposed to bedrooms) if there are no windows or the windows are the kind that are not made to be opened (usually due to proximity to neighboring building etc). NYC fire laws require at least 2 possible exits for bedrooms (1 being the door and another being a window that can open).

I saw them last weekend. It has potential to be a cool building, but I don't see how they are going to sell the 8-10 units where the bedrooms have no windows. Not many people can handle that.

driggs11211,

bjw2103, believes in the tooth fairy, in 12 months as you wrote all properties in WillyB will be worth less then what they are today, bjw2103, your property included, thats fact and supported by so I don't want to hear that shit about comps, data and you have not tried to sell. You have to understand bjw2103 stance he will admit dumbo property value is plummeting which is fact and supported by so but won't admit WillyB property value is plummeting if he does admit to WillyB properties losing value he has to admit his property lost value as well. The best statement made by bjw2103, is "I think the developers made some pretty significant miscalculations on this" and he got that from no other then me mutombonyc.

bjw2103, how is property value created? How is your friend munckee?

I think people should do what suits them best, if someone purchases a 1 bdrm 2btrm with an office for $450,000 and 3 years later its worth $150,000 do not cry for a bailout or look to pursue legal charges you know what you got yourself into. We all have to admit that property values went up abnormally and are going down abnormally its call correction. Someone said if their vinyl* sided home burned down in WillyB it would cost them $150,000 at max to rebuild.

Before I conclude to this reply, homes in brownsville cost $379,000 for this neighborhood is this normal?

mutombonyc,

I don't know how else to say this - you are a raving lunatic. I think your views on real estate are highly biased and terribly uninformed. Who else refutes actual data? Or doesn't know that you can also rent a condo? This, paired with a bizarre obsession with my "property value" has led me to the aforementioned conclusion.

There goes bjw2103 trolling LOL. How did I refute actual data?

bjw2103,

No one is obsessed with your "property value" but when you say dumbo is dead in the water because of x, y,& z you have to include willyb in that equation but you won't ever include willyb as you know where you hold a "mortgage".

My views on RE are not biased and terribly uninformed and I say this because you have used plenty of my phrases and statements in thread replies by YOU. I don't like the word bottom I searched and found the word plateau and after I started to use plateau on SE other poster started using plateau as well.

Those CB's who changed zoning and developers that built "made some pretty significant miscalculations on this. By bjw2103 inspired by mutombonyc" and they are supposed to be experts in RE with credentials from prestigious schools and firms who are not off by a hair they are off the scale to the left. Is this the actual data I'm refuting? As I said you can't rent a condo thats not the purpose of a condo to rent and if you are renting a condo its not a condo too you because your merely paying for someone else's condo. The educated folks wanted too get complexed GREEDY and thats where these problems come in.

bjw2103, how is property value created?

driggs - not sure about dropping 50%. think we see new unsold condo properties going rental first. as for resellers, why wouldn't they just rent their units before selling at a deep loss as well. I own and that's what i'd do. of course, who knows. i like williamsburg, so i guess i'm happy here any way.

mutombo, I think everyone liked you much better when you were Defensive POY or providing aid to the Congo. Anyway, to indulge your questioning:

"How did I refute actual data?"
You wrote this above and have repeated this notion several times: "so I don't want to hear that sh*t about comps, data and you have not tried to sell."

"No one is obsessed with your "property value" but when you say dumbo is dead in the water because of x, y,& z you have to include willyb in that equation but you won't ever include willyb as you know where you hold a "mortgage"."
You post A LOT about it - you have a fixation. I don't think Dumbo is "dead in the water." I have said I think Dumbo is a bit of a niche market and I have my reasons for not buying there, but you can't equate that to "dead in the water." As for Williamsburg, it's clearly not immune to the downturn and the real estate market is going through a trying time right now. It's something I was prepared for when I bought, knowing full well I was going to be here for a while. I don't think it matters much to people who can afford their apartments and who don't want/need to sell.

"you have used plenty of my phrases and statements in thread replies by YOU"
Uh, no.

"As I said you can't rent a condo thats not the purpose of a condo to rent and if you are renting a condo its not a condo too you because your merely paying for someone else's condo. The educated folks wanted too get complexed GREEDY and thats where these problems come in."
You can rent a condo. I don't know how you can argue this. No, you won't own it, but that's what renting means. You can also rent DVDs, but they're DVDs whether you buy them or rent them. Same concept. This is what I mean by "uninformed."

"bjw2103, how is property value created?"
Broadly, through location, square footage, condition, quality/finances of co-op/condo, amenities, appliances, and other factors. Even more generally though, something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it at that moment in time. And you can't truly know the value of a specific property until you attempt a transaction, or at least get an honest appraisal; you can guess, but at the very least, you'd need details on the factors I listed here.

bjw2103,

I like picking with you its fun. You are way off and will never ever be like nyc10022 who is full of wisdom.

mutombo, it is fun. We are completely at odds on that last statement though. Has he accepted any of your affectionate dinner invitations?

Yes, she has accepted my dinner invitations, infact, we went to Peter Lugers.

2C worked out 670 plus NYC, NYS tax according to a buyers agent. Thats about 12% reduction netted out. Is this all the correction? I don't think so.

That's funny, I actually thought I was going to read about 72 Berry :)

ilikele, was when you say plus nyc and nys tax...does that mean they didn't have to pay that? also was this from the buyers agent to you?

What happened to the listings? I thought there are about 20+ so units in this building for sale. Now, only 4 are available.

Go to the Corcoran site - a bunch are in contract, but there are more than just four available.
Tina
(Brooklyn broker)

In one of the early posts someone wrote about this being a nice location. But is it quiet?..In my view the non-price major positive attribute of SOME areas of Wmburg is that it is much,much quieter than most anywhere in Manhattan due to less traffic, not so many buildings so close together...all primarily because of the location by the water. But as you get further from the water or near the highway this seems not to be true. I've walked around Wmburg two afternoons so don't know it too well, but I was pleasantly surprised at how quiet those blocks are near Kent Ave.

I have a buyer in contract at 72 Berry, so have spent a bit of time in the building. I love this location - it was already nice when I moved to the neighborhood in 1989 (I worked as a cook at Teddy's down the street). Close to the subway, and the restaurants, bars, etc., but above the scrum of Meat Street and Bedford. Those blocks of Berry between North 10th and North 6th feature some of the lovelier original brick townhouses in the neighborhood. One nice thing about 72 Berry is that you are bordered by townhouses on three sides (there's another warehouse conversion to the north), so it retains much of that low-rise character, but with the high ceilings, beams, brick, etc you associate with an industrial loft. I'm a sucker for a conversion building, though, so take that for what it's worth.

We looked at a LOT of buildings in the area before choosing this one. It doesn't have the amenities of a lot of the new developments, so if you're looking for a pool and a screening room, 72 Berry is not for you. There is only a "virtual" doorman, for example (not sure how that's gonna work out). There is no street-level showroom, so you have to parade through the construction site to see the spaces. The immediate area is a pretty torn up at the moment, owing to all the construction on North 10th, as well as these two conversions. It's a little sportier than, say, the Edge sales office. But I'd rather get my feet dirty than have my clients pay an add'l $200/sf so they can get free cappuccinos...

jimstreeteasy,

That stretch of Berry is, as tina24hour said, one of the prettiest parts of the neighborhood. Very quiet as well, as you've got mostly residential plus a few small restaurants. As I said earlier here, I think pricing is too high still, but this is really as prime a location in WB as I can think of.

If you are looking for a pool Metropolitan pool is few blocks away infact its on Bedford & Metropolitan. Berry is nice & quiet and I am giving it good reviews if someone wants to live on Berry thats a nice place to live.

Is a terrace/balcony considered an amenity*?

I've been reading everyone's posts regarding windows, or lack thereof. I've seen the place and noticed that even the windows in the "bedroom" don't open out at all, is this a fire code violation, not having any windows that open out at all as a possible exit?

soultasto, that's why they're technically listed as "home offices" - they're not allowed to call it a bedroom if there's no direct means of egress in case of a fire. It is amusing that they put a bed in the floorplans though. At these kinds of prices, I don't expect these kinds of compromises.

bjw2103 - what kind of compromises? The building is a conversion, built deep and wide. Of course there are going to be interior spaces without windows. That's a compromise many people are willing to make in order to get other qualities you won't find in new construction - solid brick walls, high ceilings, wood beams. Some of the units do have operable windows in their home office spaces, but the developers/brokers don't refer to them as bedrooms because they are lot-line windows and are not protected.

I understand you may not be interested in the building - it's truly a matter of taste. I don't see any misrepresentation here.

Tina
(Brooklyn broker)

tina24hour, sorry if my last comment came off as harsh. My point was that if a buyer needs a second bedroom, at these prices, he/she should not have to give up having actual sunlight. I feel these are priced as 2-bedrooms when they're really not (though I agree there should be some premium for more space and a home office, just not this much). Otherwise, I actually really like the building - great location, love the conversion, and prefer these smaller buildings in general. Plus, Miranda and Silent H are right there!

"At these kinds of prices, I don't expect these kinds of compromises."

That is a perfectly reasonable statement to me. I think the "home office" was something developers could get away with in frenzied times, but when people have a moment to pause it's a huge turnoff. After reading about how pretty the block was I took a look at 72 Berry's website, got to the floorplans and was done in about a minute.

Tina, loved your post on the history of DUMBO on the other thread.

the discussion between bjw and tina is exaclty where the market is right now. i think many brokers recognize that prices are out of whack yet there is still a pool of buyers, albeit small. most people are sitting on hands waiting. eventually prices will come down. i think brokers need to step up here and be honest with their clients about what price point deals are happening. would be interested to hear tina's opinion on this or other brokers here. certainly broker's income is better with many apts selling at lower prices than few selling at higher prices.

another question is whether the prices CAN come down with these new developments and their lending arrangements. if they truly can't until foreclosure, then it's a game of brokers accentuating the positive and developers throwing in trips to Italy.

72 Berry might be able to come down on price more though, because it is still being built and you can always figure out creative ways to save on building costs.

"After reading about how pretty the block was I took a look at 72 Berry's website, got to the floorplans and was done in about a minute."

tenemental, pretty much had the same reaction. It's kind of a shame, but I'm sure for the right buyer these will be wonderful homes. I just think, for essentially very large 1BRs you're looking at a smaller target market. Apparently, 10 of the 25 are already in contract though, so what do I know?

cfranch, I agree, and I'm an owner (yes, despite what some people on this site might have you think, opinions do not cut so clearly across renter vs owner lines)! I don't know what'll happen at 72 Berry, though if they really have 10 out already, I'd imagine they'd feel pretty good about holding tight for a while, or at least extending a little more negotiating power to a couple more units in order to get above a certain % sold.

bjw2103- I wasn't just talking about the "home office"...in all the apartments I have seen, none of the windows opened up,
except for a small window on the floor(!) that opened out just wide enough to let a baby crawl out! I like all the brick, space,
etc, too, but I'm having difficulty accepting the prices they are asking for no working windows...

I have a buyer in contract on one of the units in 72 Berry with an operable window in the home office. Oddly, no window (operable or otherwise) appears on the floor plan on the website. I can't speak for any of the other units.

I think 72 Berry is an interesting case. It seems to be offering buyers what they want at the price/incentives/monthlies they can afford, and has therefore drilled into a pocket of buyers that has eluded other properties. As of a week ago, there were 10 executed contracts and another 7 contracts out; there are only 25 units. Part of the appeal is the size of the building - big enough for the banks to underwrite, but not so big that getting to 70% in contract means finding several hundred buyers.

I think the buyer for 72 Berry prizes location and solid bones over flashy amenities and a swanky showroom. The finishes are nice, don't get me wrong (and they're not cheaping out - the installed appliances are actually better than the ones advertised in the prospectus). But they're not embarrassing, they don't scream "luxury" in an inappropriate way. In fact, I heard that at least one of the buyers was previously a tenant - I take that as a good sign.

Interestingly, what little information we can glean from the folks at the EDGE shows that complex is skewing older - lots of baby boomers and empty nesters. I actually believe that's the right demographic for all those amenities: people seeking a kind of hip retirement heaven. I think 72 Berry represents more of a true Williamsburg aesthetic, albeit at prices many artists can't afford. But you know what? Some of them can...

Tina
(Brooklyn broker)

i just stumbled on this thread... my friends almost went into contract on this bldg, but the seller has something in the contract saying that they get to control sale or rental prices in the bldg as long as they own a unit. my friends decided against it ultimately.

my question is, is that a common thing that seller's ask for? i'm looking to buy myself soon too...

thanks.

vick

Does anyone know what these units actually went for?

http://ny.therealdeal.com/articles/the-only-project-selling-in-williamsburg

My buyer got notice today that the building is over 70% in contract. I think there are only three or four units left.
Tina
(Brooklyn broker)

That's great news that they hit 70%. Im working on getting this building approved with us. Rightfully so we decided to give financing discounts to contract holders in buildings that meet Fannie's pre-sale. sunny_hong@countrywide.com

Does anyone know how this building is offering 90% financing?

Many buildings allow 90% financing. It's just difficult to get 90% financing from a bank.

Any resales happening