Open House Reports - Upper West Side - March 2009

345 West 88th Street #5B
Co-op 2 beds 2 baths
↓ $1,150,000 Mt.$1348

#5B is one half of a once-grand apartment, but there isn’t much grandeur on display here. The interiors need refreshing, the second bedroom and dining room are quite small, and the views are drab. The apartment lacks any logical flow: the second bedroom sits off the foyer, between the living room and dining room. That’s not a big surprise in a carve-up, but a million-dollar purchase no longer requires that sort of compromise. As for the building, the limited services (P/T doorman) and light amenities help keep the maintenance reasonable. The listing mentions a $50/share transfer fee. I don’t know the share count for #5B. In any case, I expect a price cut or delisting here soon. The price is five months old, and the apartment has been on the market for nearly a year.

West81st, thanks for these excellent write-ups. I've been meaning to get to 440WEA, but now I don't feel the need.

I saw the delusionally overpriced 345 W88th 3 months ago and I am astounded that there has been no reduction. I was floored by the kitchen which I assumed to be a 1950's job and was most amused when the broker told me it was a recent "retro" renovation. It looks like what the Kramdens would have done with their kitchen if only Ralph had gotten that raise at the bus company.

251 West 89th Street #3F (New listing)
Condo 3 beds 2 baths
$3,300,000 CC $1812 RET $1064

#3F is a big, handsomely renovated pre-war corner seven with well-preserved details and highly functional updates. With about seventy feet of frontage on 89th Street, the apartment has impressive scale and light. The huge, ornate central gallery makes a grand statement. The public spaces are all impeccable; the bedroom wing is both comfortable and sleek. Although flow is generally good, the apartment does have some challenges, most notably the allocation of space. The gallery is simply too big for its purpose. The current owners use it as the dining room; the big paneled room in the southwest corner, more naturally the DR, serves instead as their den. The southern view across 89th is the unlovely face of the Savannah.

For many years, the Admaston commanded a price premium as one of the few pre-war condos on the prime Upper West Side. Although co-ops still predominate, recent conversions have made this niche much more competitive. The owners bought #3F at the top of the market, and are selling after a very short tenure here. Their position does not appear strong.

Addendum on #3F: A $378/month assessment is in place.

ddanyc: My pleasure. Thanks for the extra color on 345 W88.

West81st, have any brokers approached you offering kickbacks for positive coverage? Seems like only a matter of time ...

I have certainly offered for negative feedback on apts I am bidding

"West81st, have any brokers approached you offering kickbacks for positive coverage? Seems like only a matter of time ..."

Ah, West81st, hold on to your integrity and call them as you see them. Any lies you post will surely be uncovered by the crowd here.

JKB: Nope, no briefcases full of cash; no dead fish either. I think a couple of brokers may have "made" me (as they say on undercover cop shows), but they don't seem to consider me worth bribing or intimidating.

Patient09 may be on to something. Shilling is too obvious, and nobody is going to buy an apartment on the fraudulent recommendation of an anonymous internet poster. But there might be some value in phony NEGATIVE reviews, if you were a potential buyer of the subject property or the broker for a competing listing.

I've already seen a fair number of negative reviews on here for spaces people want to keep to themselves. Some of them are about as obvious as Mystery and his teachnique of going "neg" on an attractive female in the hopes you can get vulnerable enough her to talk to you. So thanks patient09, now when I read your posts, I will see this horrible, awful image in my head:
http://tv.yahoo.com/show/42092/photos/2

As I have mentioned before, StreetEasy is mainly a vehicle for conveying negative information, slamming everybody's listings, no matter what. Of course, most of the good deals are not going to be mentioned on here, for fear of tipping off a competitor.

I wonder where all these StreetEasy people live. They must have all found the only perfect buildings in the city and won't tell us the names of those buildings.

whew, I must be typing blind today! Meant to say: "Some of them are about as obvious as Mystery and his technique of going "neg" on an attractive female in the hopes you can demoralize her enough to talk to you."

315 w 86, #12ab
3bed/3bath, FRD
1800sf
maint. $2226
Price: 2.295000
The corridor is a bit claustrophobic but the rest is really taken care of. I'm not a big fan of built-ins but seems to work for them. Even the TV is, or looks, built-in. I think they sacrificed quite a bit of space for this effect. The place works well for a family. Which, I have to add, is not my thing.

lost: My posts are usually positive, its the pricing aspect that I am generally negative on. Remeber, no such thing as a bad asset, only bad prices for assets.

p09: yes, you're positive things are going lower (low hanging fruit, I know I know . . . )

Trust me patient09, I think you are one of the saner people on here, and I like reading your posts. All I'm saying is that people should take negative comments on here with as much salt as they do with the hyperbolically positive ones.

And I don't really think you look like Mystery. That's more rufus territory.

I love how 251 West 89th Street #3F is priced 100K above what they paid for it at the peak - after all it is their constitutional right to make money on every RE transaction.

well compared to me in reality, Mystery is quite handsome.! Anyway..wifey went to 1075 Park 12C. It looks similar to pictures on the web, (no photo shop). nice condition, good light, nice kitchen, the 3rd bedroom is a bit weak (small). I havn't seen it so won't guess on a price.

good to have you back w81!

205 West 89th Street (Astor Court) #10S
Co-op 2 beds 2 baths
$1,295,000 Mt.$1689
Traffic: Moderate

#10S is a bright, well-proportioned 2/2 in one of the top coops on Broadway. Although #10S was almost certainly carved from one of Platt's grand, original plans, the layout flows well and access to everything is good. Closet space is excellent. Both bathrooms - hall and master - appear to be original and in good condition. The kitchen is circa 1980 and cheap-looking; it does not require immediate replacement, and features an ample breakfast area. The living room with WBFP is bright, west-facing, and big enough to do double service as LR/DR. That's how the current occupants use it, with the added advantage that the host, seated at the head of the table, has a glorious northwest view of the Cornwall cornice - one of the neighborhood's architectural jewels. The bed in the master bedroom would probably share this outlook. The view directly west is less prepossessing, as the Admaston and New West are quite plain; I think #10S is high enough to enjoy the glow of Hudson sunsets, if not the setting sun itself.

Halstead seems to have priced #10S fairly, so this listing will tell us something about the market segment, and also about how the Astor Court is currently viewed by potential buyers. There have been rumblings on this board about looming repairs. I haven't investigated that topic myself.

West81,
At Astor Court there is a PH for sale. Did you happen to see it?

Sparkling writing, W81. Thanks.

771 West End Avenue #5B vs. #9B; #5A vs. #7A
Coop - "B" line is a classic six; "A" line is a classic seven.
5B:↓$1,495,000 Mt.$1766; 9B:↓$1,895,000 Mt.$2067; 5A: $2,295,000 Mt.$2003; 7A:↓$2,600,000 Mt.$2132
[Note: #9B now appears as "Temporarily off-market" as of March 9th.]

The intersection of 97th and West End is becoming Ground Zero for deflation of the UWS prewar bubble. This charming, well-maintained Schwartz & Gross co-op - like Emery Roth's 755 WEA and the Blum Brothers' 760 - features competition that was unimaginable a year ago. Here's how the same-line pairs at 771 match up:

5B vs. 9B: The comparison here is pretty straightforward. The apartments share a traditional classic six layout, with the LR, DR and both BRs facing south. The bedrooms have good closet space, and the master suite has a small dressing area. Both kitchens are modern; I think #9B has higher-end appliances, but I found #5B's finishes more attractive and less dated. The bathrooms in #5B are in better condition. #9B has a window in the master bedroom with a beautiful river view; in #5B, that window doesn't exist. #9B is also somewhat brighter overall, although the main view from both apartments is the side of 755 WEA across 97th Street. Lastly, #9B has through-the-wall A/C; #5B is limited to window units; the coop apparently no longer allows wall penetration. Otherwise, I didn't see much to justify a $400K price difference. I guess nobody else did either, because #9B was de-listed yesterday.

#5A vs. #7A will follow shortly.

Falcogold1: Sorry, I haven't seen the penthouse. No bedroom door in the floorplan is a dealbreaker for me.

Jerkstore: Thanks very much.

Color my face red. I referred to 755 WEA as Roth. It's Candela (duh).

West81st: did you see 315 W 86 #12AB?

thebell: Haven't seen it. Wanted to, but the timing didn't work. Two big red flags there:
1) It's the only $2MM apartment in the building. Nothing else is close, probably.
2) Entrance to the MBR from the LR screams "COMBINATION". For that money, give me a classic seven.

West81st: from what I figured, a lot, and I mean a lot of apartments in that building are combinations. I thought it's a good sign. As to this one being the only $2MM one, I don't see any other big ones on sale there. #15A (2bed/2bath) is on the market for $995000.

Sorry, 15C is on the market. Also, there's this penthouse sold for $1270000...

771 wea, 5a vs 7a?

West81st, there's your price chop on 345 W88th.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/218304-coop-345-west-88th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

ddanyc: I guess Lee Presser reads StreetEasy.

Seriously, you see this sequence a lot when an agent is trying to persuade a reluctant owner to cut their price. The broker's last card is, "OK, tell you what - we'll run an open house this Sunday. If it doesn't generate any live leads, we'll cut by x%." On Monday, the broker follows up with any visitors who showed the slightest interest. (In this case, that probably didn't take long.) On Tuesday, the price comes down.

Returning to the battleground at 97th and West End:
771 West End Avenue #5A vs. #7A
5A: $2,295,000 Mt.$2003; 7A:↓$2,600,000 Mt.$2132

Across the semi-private north landing from the ”B” line is the well-proportioned, classic seven “A” line. #7A is an estate sale that has languished at $2.6MM for nine months, probably gaining false hope from the sale of #12A last fall – in much worse condition - for $2.3MM. #5A is a fresh listing that reflects Douglas Heddings’ proclaimed strategy of pricing his inventory 25% below peak levels. #5A and #7A have both been thoroughly updated. The work appears to date from the 1990s and both apartments are quite habitable as-is for an unfussy buyer, though both renovations show some age.

The original “A” floorplan – preserved in #7A as it was in #12A - reflects a bygone era, with a 300 sq.ft. dining room and the kitchen in the far rear, beyond the maid’s room. Dividing the DR to create another BR looks simple; the details vary from floor to floor because the arrangement of windows varies slightly. #5A uses the footprint's flexibility in an unconventional way: The DR has been divided, but the excised space has been merged with the original maid’s room to create a large, relocated kitchen. The original kitchen is now an office and laundry area. This arrangement works well, and it’s nice to have the kitchen closer to the dining room, though I’m not sure it would be worth the trouble if you were starting from scratch. The kitchen in #5A has great workspace, a well-configured eating area and a very serious professional oven. Some of the finishes look a bit dated to my eye. #7A’s kitchen is fairly nice, also eat-in, and might actually be newer. It’s just a bit isolated. When you’re feeding a crowd in that huge dining room, traffic control in the pantry corridor might get tricky.

By the way, there’s an odd moment in Elliman’s video tour of #5A when Heddings mentions that the dining room has hosted as many as twenty guests. That’s probably true, but I suspect those large dinner parties all pre-dated the renovation. In the current DR, I wouldn't try to seat more than twelve.

The living room of the “A” line is a rather plain, square space with high ceilings, nice moldings and two windows that face south across 97th Street. It’s nicer than the green-tinged picture in the #7A listing makes it look. Basically, that room will be what the buyer makes of it. The bedrooms occupy a separate wing - the front of the apartment really, on the corner of WEA and 97th - and they are all quite comfortable. The first two bedrooms have windows on two sides - including the second BR that adjoins the oversized DR in #7A - so there might be some additional flexibility for a large family.

In this particular duel, there’s no clear winner. Personally, I prefer #7A because the big dining room speaks to me and I prefer the finishes. That preference isn’t worth $300K, and others will probably give the nod to #5A, even without the pricing edge. I think the most likely outcome, FWIW, is that #5A will set the market while #7A continues its internal debate. It’s possible, though, that if a qualified bidder stepped forward at this stage, the heirs to #7A would take the bird in hand out of sheer fatigue.

I should add that the real problem for those two sevens at 771 WEA might be the folks across the street:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/389516-coop-755-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york
Lower price, lower maintenance, higher floor and arguably a nicer apartment. I prefer 771 to 755, but Candela is a comparable brand to Schwartz & Gross.

West 81 - Are the public schools decent here, or do you have to start with the 35K private school in kindergarten? Because if you do, the number of families who can afford and/or willing to pay the mortgage and maintenance for these units, and private school tuition for two kids, has fallen by about 75%. $1,000,000 dollar house with $20,000 taxes in Scarsdale or Larchmmont is looking pretty good at this moment.

prettykitty: Schools are such an emotional issue that I try not to comment unless I have first-hand information. I've seen parents who live in the northern half of District 3 invest a lot of time and effort procuring spots in G&T elementary programs in other catchments, as well as the selective middle schools in the area. Then again, there are families zoned for PS87 who do that too.

prettykitty, FWIW, the public schools in this area are not considered to be very good - not terrible, but certainly not good enough to draw people here. As for the suburbs, there will always be people who prefer living in the city to Westchester (and vice versa of course), despite the fact that you give up lots of space and have more issues with regard to the schools. Door to door commutes from Westchester are always over an hour each way and some people do not want to spend their time commuting (for the record, we bought a house in Westchester and sold it in 6 months to move back to Manhattan, so I have an obvious bias). That said, when my 3 kids are all in school my tune may change when faced with a $100,000 bill for private school.

Hey Starfish - Yes, it is a very personal choice. But a place like Larchmont or Pelham has nice houses that are literally a 2-minute walk from the station. Train ride is 30 minutes. If you work near Grand Central, it's really not too bad. As for living in places like Bedford, I will never understand it. Never.

The living in Manhattan private school thing only works when one gets and anticipates big bonuses year after year after year. I don't see this former reality coming back anytime soon, but who knows? Hope I'm wrong.

We moved to Pelham precisely for the commute and found that the houses close to the train were too expensive or too loud (b/c of the train). Most of the people we knew had a long walk to the train or had to take a cab both ways as the waiting list for parkng was 3+ years when we were there. So, with a 10 minute walk and then a short commute from Grand Central, it always ended up being over an hour (and Pelham is by far the best commute for Westchester). The return trip was actually worse, as my wife and I always had our eye on the clock at night and usually ended up sprinting for the overpacked train home. Lots of people are cool with it though, so it just ends up being a personal choice. Maybe we would have had a different experience if we had a couple million to spend...

Schools - if you don't live in a good zone and you're not a legacy, you're setting up yourself for a LOT of anxiety. BTDT. I would hazard a guess that West81st (and LiquidPaper?) are legacies at privates, which changes the whole private school process.

If you have more than one kid, guess what? You get to go through the process twice or more!

People make it seem that getting into G&T/Hunter/Anderson et al. is easy but I would say that based on informal observations of my children's peer group in the park and at preschool, most of the kids wouldn't make the cutoff. That does not speak to their intelligence or parenting merely that some kids are faster out the gate in terms of milestones and wanting to please (which helps with the testing process).

Legacy doesn't matter anymore. There are too many legacy for spots anyway. I received a letter from my school that I went to for 14 years saying there was more apps from Legacy than total spots.

10023: Legacy at a private? The next time I have you cornered at the Fairway cheese counter, I'm going to whack you with my "Public Schools Rock" tote bag.

My 2 cents - the public school(s) would have be really bad for me to spend that much money on private. Hubby wants parochial. I want public. We both greatly value education (hubby is an ivy grad) but we just aren't hardcore enough to pay and play the private game. Maybe I'm uninformed. I may be singing a different tune in 3 years...

UWSMOM - I agree. I grew up here and went to private for 14 years and have no desire (and truthfully would be tough economically) to play the private game.

I second that. And there are at least a dozen public choices in Manhattan that are good enough. That's not a lot, but not dismally low either.

I second that. And there are at least a dozen public choices in Manhattan that are good enough. That's not a lot, but not dismally low either.

Oh yeah, I'm tough - I've been whacked by little old ladies who think I'm too nice to reciprocate. My mistake, I thought your kids went to private (and that you also grew up on UWS and went private).

BTW, I never shop at the Fway cheese counter. I pick up my Parm. from the outside bins, and hit Zabar's once a week for the rest of my cheese.

UWS: my friends say glowing things about St. Ignatius and it's much, much cheaper than the other privates. Under 10k, if I'm not mistaken.

I don't get the manhattan school thing. Need to educate myself more I suppose. Hubby and I grew up in very small towns w/ one public school choice. We both turned out just fine. Like I said, I'm not well informed about how it's all structured but wonder if the overabundance of choice (and money, and expectations) distorts the difference between the very best and the rest. Perhaps "not bad, but not great" is good enough :)

suggest that you take a few trips to local schools and see what you think. start by hanging out at 84 & amsterdam a few minutes before school lets out.

like i said, if a school is truly "bad" or unsafe, it's not really a possibility...I get the impression that being in a public school but not being in G/T is like getting the cootie tray :). C'est la vie....

i sent my kids to private school on the UWS (luckily back in the 80's and 90's when I could afford it) and they got a great education - with one exception - they never learned that there are all kinds of people in the world the way I did in public school. My neighbors in the building love the local public schools. PS 87 is supposed to be great, and my friends with kids in (I forget the number) Emily Dickinson on 96th and West End are totally committed. As with everything else, it's time or money. If you don't pay for the extras, you provide it yourself.

ps 75 = 96th street

Trinityparent: Remember the Rule of Holes. Put down the shovel.

More from 97th and West End:

760 West End Avenue #12E
Coop, 2 beds, 2 baths (Bath count includes maid's bath, but maid's room is office/3rd BR)
$1,495,000 Mt.$1550
Traffic: Moderate

This high-floor pre-war five drew reasonable interest on Sunday, and for good reason. The apartment has been nicely updated. The new kitchen opens to a west-facing dining area that is small but quite bright. The good-sized LR also faces west and sees enough of the river to qualify as a legitimate partial view. The corner MBR enjoys a direct river view from one window. The second BR faces south and gets good light. A washer-dryer will be installed shortly in a closet off the front hall. The bathrooms are in good shape. The one in the bedroom wing appears to be mostly original, but well preserved. The maid's bath looks new, or nearly so.

The key negatives here are overall size - the price probably works out to around $1100 psf - and tight closet space. The owners appear to have outgrown it, as evidenced by the bed and crib in the second BR. For a young family, it could be a fine choice, but resale might be a concern if the family is still growing or if schools are an issue. 760 WEA hasn't historically been a strong performer, and it could suffer in a downturn. #12E itself appears to have set the high-water mark for the building when it sold for $1.425MM in late 2005. That record is probably safe. By the way, a low-floor estate sale in the same line has just been listed for a shade under a million; it's not much of a comp, since the light, views and condition are #12E's main assets.

Well, I for one am psyched to check out 390 RSD (ok, not exactly a real three-bed - nothing more than a glorified Edwardian 5 but still..

Also looking forward to 315 W 106. Big BIG price cuts since first on the mkt.. Yipee! Real estate porn!

Still on 97th and West End:

755 West End Avenue #3B
Coop, 2 beds, 2 baths plus maid's suite
$1,375,000 Mt.$1482
Traffic: Light-Moderate

The inept staging of this Candela six was discussed on another thread. With Iron Mountain boxes stacked waist-high in the foyer, telltale bills on the fridge and the agent padding around barefoot, the open house did not exude opulence. The clutter made the apartment feel small, and I found it uncomfortable to have so much of the owners' life story in plain sight.

New owners won't have to deal with the banking detritus or the barefoot broker, but they will have significant work to do. The updated kitchen is near the end of its useful life, except for the incongruously lavish wine fridge. The bathrooms are mostly original, and in fair condition. Rust in the sink of one en-suite bathroom suggests the need for renovation there as well. Cosmetically, the apartment needs freshening throughout.

The less tractable issues concern light and layout. The short sides of the living room and one bedroom face east over WEA, and get reasonable sun, at least in the morning. The rest of the apartment is quite dim, with six windows facing an interior court. Flow is not ideal either. The foyer/gallery hangs off the north side of the apartment and is not a central hub. As a result, it is necessary to cross though the living room on the the way from one part of the apartment to another.

Although 755 WEA is a pleasant co-op with lots of families and a decent playroom in the basement, it is neither amenity-rich nor architecturally distinguished, and its school zone is not a marketing asset. 755 was among the first buildings to offer tangible evidence of price erosion on the upper UWS. The last strong sale here was #2B, a sponsor wreck that fetched $1.45MM in June. #5C, another six with a better layout but even less light, went through five price cuts and two good brokers before finally going to contract in January asking $1.2MM; the execution price is not yet public. #8A is an attractive seven that has also languished, moving recently from Elliman to Corcoran as #5C did. These trends suggest that a six-figure hammer price for #3B should not shock anyone.

Thanks, West81st. The building's typical of the layout and access problems in many early-Candela spec jobs. E.g., the living room as hallway in the B line here, as you pointed out. The A line has the master-bedroom door in the middle of one long wall of the living room. The C is the step-child line, accessed from the service hallway. Same deal with the E line at 1192 Park, where the front door is off the service hallway.

NWT: Excellent point. It's funny how the RE industry has turned long-dead architects into brand names. They were capable of great things - especially Roth - but a lot of their work is pretty mundane and reflects the imperatives of space, terrain and money. A "Candela six" or a "Roth eight" isn't necessarily a great home, or even a good one.

Exactly. They were the Kostas-what's-his-names of their times. Maybe someday people'll get all gushy about his high-end stuff.

Trinityparent: are you seriously suggesting that people pay a premium to be zoned for PS75? I know that people pay a premium for PS87, 199, and increasingly PS9? But my impression is that people go to PS75, 166 and make the best of it as opposed to deliberately choosing to go there if they could afford an alternative. Also, a large proportion of PS75, 166 come from out of zone, meaning that they are zoned for worse schools and 75, 166 were the best public alternatives given that PS87, 199 are increasingly, if not impossible to get in for out of catchment students.

What this ultimately means for people who choose to buy in areas zoned for 75, 166 is: 1) their kids are already in various schools so they can stay there regardless of where they move 2) they know they're going private 3) they are temporarily putting the school issue aside for now in the desire for space because upper West End Ave has historically been cheaper. If #3, then if the kids do end up going to PS75, 166, families do make the best of it but I would hardly say that it was their primary motivation in moving to that zone.

Lastly, most families I know profess (and believe) that whatever school their kids attend is "best" for their families. Very damaging to the parental psyche to think that they're not doing the best for their kids. I'll be very honest with you - if my kids got into Trinity, that would be my first choice over almost any public school. I'm not smug enough to think that in the NYC hyper-competitive environment, I can necessarily get what would be most optimal for my kids.

trinityparent: why have you chosen that name for yourself?

Bravo NWT and West81st! It's time someone called the brand-creation by the RE rainmakers. Or soon it will come to a 6th floor walk-up railroad intestine of a place , "but it's by Pupsmelbchershmidt!"

When we were in a real estate bubble, the gap between a non-good-school zone apt and a good-school-zone apt narrowed. These days, as with private school applications, there is a flight to (perceived) quality. In the last recession, quite a few private schools went bust. This is going to happen again to schools that are perceived to be inferior by parents.

If the primary market of an apartment is a family with school-aged children, an apt zoned for a better school is going to have some kind of price premium attached. And one that is not, will simply have to find what the floor is for a family-sized apt in a "lesser" school district.

Starfish - when did you buy and sell in Pelham? Did you make or lose money?

nyc10023: Very well said. Another point to consider, for families that gamble on admission to selective public programs, is the pressure on the kids. When up to half of a family's after-tax income may be riding on the process, the atmosphere around the dinner table can get pretty intense.

315 West 106th Street #14A
Coop, 4 beds, 3 baths (BR count includes current den and office)
↓$2,000,000 Mt.$2439
Traffic: Steady

Halstead created some buzz last week by slashing this well-appointed eight-into-seven by $695K, to $2MM. The listing debuted six months ago at $3.175MM. The timing could not have been worse.

The public areas present quite well, although the red paint in the foyer may not help the sales effort. The north wing of the apartment, comprising the dining room, kitchen and servants'/guest quarters, has been lavishly redone quite recently. Viking, Miele and SubZero logos are prominent. The white cabinetry is of good quality. Wide expanses of pleasantly neutral Corian provide ample workspace, and the breakfast bar is handsome, high-end wood. The lighting is modern and effective, though it may not suit all tastes. A new, attractive full bath off the kitchen, which also houses the laundry facilities, provides reasonable privacy for guests. The living room and den/third BR, which communicate through french doors, are south-facing, bright, and well-maintained. The parquet floors are in good shape.

The family wing is less impressive. The hall bath and master bath are original and in only fair condition. The second bedroom features outdated carpeting and built-ins. The corner master is in better shape, but the built-ins in the dressing area show some age there too. All of these drawbacks are fairly easy to fix.

The bigger disappointment involves the views. From a few choice angles, the Hudson River is visible in all its glory. From most vantage points, however, even the windows touted on the floor plan as having river views actually look at walls, or south across 106th Street.

The owners appear to be empty nesters. It is not clear why they undertook the recent upgrades in preparation for a sale, or whether they had planned to stay longer. In either case, much of their investment may go unrecovered. For reasons we have discussed in this thread and elsewhere, the market for large apartments in this neighborhood seems to have softened dramatically.

Sorry, should read: "It is not clear whether they undertook..."

always thought there was an issue there with floor plan showing river views to the west, south and north....seemed a tad too good to be true.

columbiacounty--not always...

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/365920-coop-417-riverside-drive-morningside-heights-new-york

wow...that looks like one hell of a place. interesting how fast it sold and the price. based on that, i wish the best of luck to the 106 st folks...$1.4 million?

West81st--great report. I too was not crazy about seeing walls from almost every window. The angles of river definitely helped offset that somewhat, but not enough for my taste--far too much gray brick, far too much view of the neighbors. All this said, there's a lot of apartment here, and ample room for a growing family (wasn't at all surprised to see so many kiddies at the OH, which had more traffic than I've seen in recent weeks--the price cut's clearly getting attention).

You've touched on just about everything I can think of, so I'll just add a couple of thoughts--the lobby and elevator leave much to be desired, IMO. While we were visiting, there was a traffic jam both ways for the single elevator, and both elevator and (tiny) lobby are decidedly shabby. Same goes for the hallways.

Thanks, Squid. I agree about the common areas. I've heard good things about the super, so maybe improvements will come. It would be hard to do much with that lobby, though.

We also checked out 390 RSD. Markedly smaller than 315 W 106--clearly the current owners have outgrown it (evidence of at least three kids). It's listed as a 3-bedroom, but that is simply untrue (though the owners have created a bizarre 'floating' third bedroom, using thin sliding 'walls', out of the original FDR). I wouldn't even call this a 6 in the classic sense, as there's no maid's room. That said, the LR and two bedrooms are standard pre-war size. Because the owners have converted the DR into a BR, the dining space has been relegated to the entrance foyer, which feels a bit cluttered.

The apartment needs work--very rough around the edges. Bathrooms appear mostly original, with some newer Mexican tiling on the floor of the second bath. Both baths have (small) windows. All-in-all, likely a gut reno job on the bathrooms, especially for those who want things to feel fresh. Kitchen is weakest link. Very small, and somewhat oddly designed. Nice to have the washer/dryer, which vents out the window. But the kitchen feels cramped.

Great river and park views from LR and MBR. Other exposures see backs of buildings, with the second BR overlooking what appears to be a school playground, which might pose a daytime noise concern.

Lobby--terrific. Double elevator banks a real plus. All-in-all, a solid apartment for a couple with one or two small children but once the kids start to grow there won't be a lot of wiggle room.

^^"likely a gut reno job on the bathrooms" should read "likely a gut reno job NEEDED..."

140 Riverside Drive #10C
Coop, 2 beds, 2 baths
$1,995,000 Mt.$1961
Traffic: Very light

First, a disclosure: I've never liked the Normandy. Emery Roth's homage to transatlantic steamers does nothing for me, and I also think the building has aged badly. But even fans of the Normandy who walked into this open house expecting a $2MM property must have been baffled.

The approach to #10C is not promising. Although the Normandy lobby looks a little fresher these days, the 10th floor corridor is the same musty, brown-carpeted mess I remember from the 70s. Once inside #10C, the visitor finds a tastefully updated four-room apartment that offers the slimmest of river views from one corner of the living room. The 400-square foot LR/DR/kitchen is a comfortable space, and the new windows are faithful to the style of the building. The view from those windows is mostly the face of 137 RSD and 340 West 86th. #10C is not quite high enough to gaze on 137's famous roof.

The bedrooms are of reasonable size, though closet space is more reminiscent of a steamship cabin than a luxury home. The second bedroom faces an airshaft. The master has one window on the airshaft, but also features one of the Normandy's trademark, curved-corner windows facing southeast over 86th Street, toward the 535 WEA site. The redone bathrooms echo the building's Art Moderne nautical theme. Laundry facilities occupy the closet in the entry gallery.

In all, #10C is a perfectly pleasant little unit. A price tag of nearly $1800 psf, however, seems out of line for such an ordinary apartment, with limited views, in a faded building that hasn't kept up with the compeitition in adding amenities or maintaining common areas. The explanation may reside at the very end of the listing, tucked away in a section singing the praises of Riverside Park. There, one finds the understated disclaimer: "Owner/Broker". If you check who owns this property (not to mention who they bought it from), it becomes a little clearer why they might be interested in establishing an overpriced, on-market comp that has absolutely no chance of selling.

West81st--Speaking of the Normandy, I'm amazed to see that *finally* 16K has entered contract. Talk about a long haul! In my book this one wins a prize for chasing the market down. Looks like they finally caught it... someone's popping a bottle of champagne.

Columbiacounty, I'm a Trinity parent (actually ex- they've both graduated) I moved to the neighborhood so my kids could walk to school. It's an amazing resource, my kids took Latin and Greek, swam in the pool (one was on the swim team) and went on to great colleges with intellectual curiousity intact. You'll never get all that in a public school, but friends of mine are adamant about public school and their kids are in it now, so I bow to them. I think we're in the catchment area for PS 87, not sure, as I never checked it out - we could afford Trinity, they were accepted, and that was that.

West81st - As usual your descriptions of the OH are great. Thank you. I wish you did downtown OH.

TamWatching: My pleasure. We'll need to find a volunteer to cover downtown.

TrinityParent: You're about three catchments away from PS87. Stop digging.

See? I told you I don't know anything about public schools.

"You'll never get all that in a public school"

Oh my goodness. People really believe this, don't they? Are there no team sports or foreign languages in public schools? I'm not even going to comment on good colleges and intellectual curiosity. I don't even have a kid in school and I'm insulted.

as i said to you earlier, you should spend a little time learning more about this before you criticize. the situation in NYC is very rough --- there is no such thing as the local high school where everyone goes. whether private or public, the competition to get into the right high school is brutal because there is no other option.

UWSmom: It's true. Unfortunately, you get what you pay for. I can't speak about team sports, but unless you are enrolled in a bilingual (there are French, Spanish & Mandarin programs in some places) school, there is no foreign language exposure K-5 in NYC public schools. I have not seen any team sports at 2 of the local public schools on the Upper West Side.

forget all this...go hang out at amsterdam and 84th at 2:45 -- draw your own conclusions.

One of the nice things about private schools is that they have the money, space & staff for extras in the school day. Foreign languages, music, sports, timely nutritious lunches, etc. As a parent, you don't have to work hard at incorporating all that on top of the school day. Trust me, your kid/s won't be jumping for joy at the prospect of being carted off for one after-school activity after the other.

The quality of the academics will depend on the school, the student body, teaching philosophy, etc.

West81st, what is it about the roof of 137 RSD? What is it famous for? Thanks in advance.
Looks like they're putting new elevator(s) up there.

everything you would ever want to know about the damn roof

http://www.cityrealty.com/nyc/manhattan/the-clarendon-137-riverside-drive/4329

Original 10-room floorplans

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=286910&imageID=464847&total=301&num=40&parent_id=286807&word=&s=&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&lword=&lfield=&imgs=20&pos=41&snum=&e=w

But there's more...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F06E7DE1430F932A35756C0A962958260
It's quite a roof.

uh oh...now, we're gonna start seeing listings that tout "VIEW OF FAMOUS 137 RIVERSIDE DRIVE ROOF!!!!"

nyc10023: Thanks for the NYPL link.

Regarding language programs in public schools, there's a funny loophole that allows parents to fund and partly manage non-core programs like Spanish. As a result, public school parents have a surprising ability to influence curricular choices through the power of the pursestrings. And no matter now deep we have to dig to fund the programs we care about, it's a pittance compared to private school tuition. The key is parental involvement - financial and otherwise - and a realization that if you want free education to be really good, you sometimes have to bend a little on the "free" part.

I don't think I'm criticizing private schools as much as trying (naively) to defend public. I guess I wouldn't expect foreign language before middle or high school. That seems like an extra to me. I'll say no more. Back to open houses....

no one wants to hang out at brandeis? that's where you're kids are gonna go if they don't get into private school or elite high school like stuyvesant. you just don't get it.

:)

See, that's why you send your kids to Horace Mann...cause they get to take the subway all the way uptown and "learn that there are all kinds of people in the world"
Although...what kind of "people" are we talking about?
Sorry, I couldn't help myself...I was a little put off by that.
I'll apologize in advance for whatever comes next

Minor correction to my write-up of the "A" line at 771 WEA: The "A" and "B" lines share the south landing. I incorrectly called it the north landing above.

Speaking of the north landing...

771 West End Avenue #8FG
Coop - 2 beds 2 baths.
↓$999,999 Mt.$1206
Traffic: Moderate

Off the attractive north landing of 771's 8th floor, a small hallway leads to what were once the F and G units. Halstead's listing for #8FG mentions the possibility of adding this hallway, but no details are provided. This intriguing little combination unit debuted last July at $1.275MM and has chased the market downward, finally crossing the $1MM barrier last week. The ask is now slightly below the price the owners paid in early 2005.

#8FG photographs well enough to draw a fresh wave of lookers after each price cut. The listing also has enough problems to keep it unsold. The layout is hardly generous - only about 1000 square feet - and the public spaces all face an airshaft. The raised dining area is particularly tight; seating eight would be a squeeze.

Although the master bath is modern and nice, the other bathroom is original and only in fair condition. Worse, that bathroom is accessed directly from the living room. The effect is somewhat eerie: the visitor opens what looks like a flimsy, modern closet door and is suddenly transported to 1915. As a result, the apartment declares its origin as as a join, and the renovation looks unfinished.

The east-facing bedroom wing is well-finished and relatively bright. A dressing area with built-ins mitigates what would otherwise be a serious shortage of closet space. The view across WEA is OK.

Time will tell whether the latest, largest price cut will do the trick. My guess is no. The ask has dropped 22% during a period when the market value of seriously flawed 2/2s on 97th and West End has probably fallen more. The choice of agent here is somewhat surprising. The listing broker specializes in Central Park Towers (372/382/392/400 CPW). She wasn't at the open house; Halstead was represented by an associate watching the Rangers game on TV.

"The explanation may reside at the very end of the listing, tucked away in a section singing the praises of Riverside Park. There, one finds the understated disclaimer: "Owner/Broker". If you check who owns this property (not to mention who they bought it from), it becomes a little clearer why they might be interested in establishing an overpriced, on-market comp that has absolutely no chance of selling."

Very funny West81st, I figured it out. Thanks for giving me an example to show that brokers sell their own apartments, as owners. ;-) Someone in another thread said that brokers always hired brokers to sell their own places. I remarked that I did not think that was true, from what I had seen.

Columbiacounty: I can tell you that none of the (universally) college-educated parents (most have grad degrees) in my catchment zone will be sending their kids to Brandeis. It's a moot point. Why do you keep harping on it? The kids will either test into Stuy/Bx, go to some other selective public, go private or the family will move.

The interesting thing will be what happens when the demographics of the UWS public housing changes. The school-aged population is dwindling rapidly there too.

West81st: Yes, there are a lot of extras that we entitled UWSers pay for and I certainly have no issue with giving our PTA thousands to get them. But there is a difference between adhoc curriculum tweaks and a serious foreign language program/music offering.

Columbiacounty, I was overjoyed when my kid got a full tuition merit scholarship to Brandeis this year.. Turned down the Dukes and Northwesterns of this world for it. $150K more towards my dream apt. on the UWS. I think people are going to start rethinking their priorities for their kids, when there is far less financial aid available at those schools that were the primary producers of hedge funders.

Look, uwsmom, and uwrenter, you're right. As citizens, we should all be educated together in public school. But until the manhattan middle class puts its kids in public school en masse, it's not even an option. Maybe this recession will make it happen.