Open House Today 1:30-4:00pm - High Floor Corner 1 Bedroom - 407 Park Avenue South #18B

jimstreeteasy, it was listed it at $539K in Sep '08 so it would have set the highest price paid for a 'B' line had it sold at the ask. It's still in the running for 2nd highest all time at $489K.

By the way, notice how the figure I calculated ($279,000) is PERFECTLY in line with historical appreciation trends for an apartment purchased for $225,000 6 years ago.

Hmmmm...intresting, no? Coincidence?

Has ever so much mental energy been spent and ink (pixels?) spilled over such an unremarkable apartment, in an unremarkable building, in an unremarkable neighborhood of Manhattan? I shudder to think of the orgasmic outpouring of lulz that will accompany the next, inevitable, price chop.

80sMan,
Well, I think my price cuts have shown that I do not have that big an emotional attachment to the property. If I thought it were really unique, I would have priced it at $599k, and left the price there. I can only imagine the criticism I would be receiving if I were asking $599k right now.

Yeah, I worked hard to try to realize a few minimalist ideas that I picked up from John Pawson, a famous British architect. The skim-coat work I did on the ceiling came out nice and it is something that distinguishes the apartment from the standard popcorn ceiling units typical in my building and in many other units on the market. It was back breaking work, that took me a few months on and off. I could not lift my arm over my head when I was done. Yet, it came out beautiful.

I installed recessed aluminum moldings at the bottom of the walls. I won't describe the work that that took. It was very difficult. If you are ever in MOMA, look at what they did at the bottoms of their walls to understand what I did. Moldings are used to cover imperfections. A recessed molding is supposed to make the wall look like it is floating over the floor.

The recessed moldings make the apartment a breeze to paint with a roller. No brush work required for all those stupid moldings that are usually put on the bottom of walls. I did not install crown moldings at the of the walls, something hideous in this kind of apartment, in my opinion. I drywall taped and joined the walls to the ceilings.

The cork floor is easy to live with and is warm on bare feet, as I put in the ad copy. It is also quiet. I was driven crazy by the cheap parquet tiles that were in that apartment. Those tiles used to squeak with every step. If you are on the 18th floor of a building like mine, nothing should move, certainly not the floor tiles.

All of my work has held up very well, I have to say. Cork holds up well to foot traffic, and because it has plenty of imperfections of its own, cork does not drive you crazy with any added imperfections that come about due to using the floor.

I know people criticize my apartment as cookie cutter. I worked with what I had, based on what I could afford and based on how much time I had to do the job. It is what it is, as we used to say in the furniture shop where I worked.

I am sure my work will be ruined. Nobody gets what I was trying to accomplish or can figure out a way to continue with the idea. Such is life. I don't hold any allusions about that. When I see their results, I will just laugh and shake my head. Perhaps I will be building my own little house by then.

If so many people are hammering this one human being about this price, on an apartment he labored over can you please take a look at that Caledonia thread and answer me -- isn't it about 100x more egregious than this (assuming this is egregious as you say) ?..or am I missing this.

407pas...i posted a substantive comment with a question..so...response?

Jim,
Yes, you found the comps but you did not include my caveats, as I told you to.

Once again,

#8B sold for $515k in July of last year. This is a much lower floor, obviously, and does not get as good light.

#14B is not a valid comp at $475k due to sad circumstances, which I will not share with this board. Doubt me if you will. Units do trade lower than market due to personal circumstances. It happens.

Slope,
Are you really trying to say you think my unit is worth $279k? Now, that is just laughable. Plain laughable.

Rent vs. Buy discussions are off topic. Yes, 65% does lower your monthly costs by a lot.

If people want to expend their energy on this, it's fine with me. It's a free country that believes in free speech, or so I have been told. You can talk about anything you want, for as long as you want.

"jimstreeteasy, it was listed it at $539K in Sep '08 so it would have set the highest price paid for a 'B' line had it sold at the ask. It's still in the running for 2nd highest all time at $489K."

You're wrong, actually. Look at the comps again and the missing information I added above.

I think under $300K is low even for a one bedroom below 96th street, but not impossibly so given the recession and stricter lending. We've already seen coops with 30%-40% reductions from peak prices; 50% might be where things settle. Taking $515K as your building's peak price for a B line apartment, half of that is $257,500. $279K doesn't sound as laughable as $539K in today's market.

You're lucky you just would like a bigger place and don't need to sell.

Fine, but let's keep the focus on your building for a moment.

Assuming your building is a cookie-cutter condo project (ie, not a building where people were paying for supposed cachet value) then when people bought there in the past they compared it to other similar buildings, so the prices must have been comparable then to the generic apartment market. Assuming that the overall market for such generic apartments is down x%, then your building, being cookie-cutter should also be down x%. Using 515k for 8th floor as reference, then say peak price for yours would be 540k, then you are only discounting by 11% down to 490k.

IF GENERIC APARTMENTS LIKE YOURS AND YOUR BUILDING ARE DOWN x% FROM PEAK, AND YOUR APARTMENT IS DOWN SAY 11% FROM PEAK, EITHER YOU BELIEVE X% = 11% or YOUR APARTMENT HAS NOT BEEN SUFFICIENTLY REDUCED. Looking at other building comps is a distraction when we have your building trends to look at so clearly as a first question.

sticky,
Ah, wow, you've now set a new record for lowballing my property. That must make you feel really good. Sorry, your argument does not fly.

The high on a B line was $525k, please read the comps again. I am tired of correcting your errors but somebody has to do it.

It doesn't matter though, $279k is completely and utterly without any basis in reality, at the present time. My recently settled comps show support me. We shall see what the future brings. None of us know.

sticky,
Did you notice how you messed up the beautiful symmetry we had, 407 posts on 407 PAS? I thought it might hold, but nope. On we go.

Jim,
It is a coop, not a condo. Could you really be making this kind of a mistake after all this time?

Wow, my price is off of the peak, and I thought you guys said I was on the bubble? My price reacts to what I see in the market and what settles. Have you ever sold an asset Jim? Have you ever bought a piece of property? You seem unable to think about the seller's side of this equation.

Sufficient reduction is to be determined in a real time manner, depending on what I see on the market at what price, whether it moves, how many people express interest in my place, their offers, etc etc. Fun game. Have you ever played it?

407PAS: "Are you really trying to say you think my unit is worth $279k? Now, that is just laughable. Plain laughable."

YES, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Why is that laughable? It was worth $225,000 in 2003 (right????). Why is it so unreasonable that your apartment "only" appreciated $54,000 in 6 years? Heck, that's 25% appreciation in 6 years. Not unreasonable at all.

"Units do trade lower than market due to personal circumstances. It happens."
As long as it's an arms length transaction (i.e. not a sale to a family member), units don't trade lower than market, they trade at market since that sale defines the market.

"My recently settled comps show support me"
Unfortunately, the only thing that will support whether or not it is appropriately priced is if someone purchases it...

If you really want to know the clearing price of your unit, price it low, inspire some bidding, and see. It's not a game, it's a valuable learning exercise.

I was giving you credit for sincerely trying to address questions here but now you you're saying assinine irrelevant things about me rather than address my post. You complain about attacks constanty and repetitively but here you are responding to substantive questions with silly personal questions. It's pitiful and inappropriate in this kind of forum.

You're pricing at peak for your building (or near it....I took your analysis for the sake of the argument) while the general market is off much more. That's the basic fact, which has been pointed out here by many,and you try to cloud it by supposed comps.

I think you guys only quoted the lowest B comp from 2005, not fair, actually. That 11B might have been an insider, for all I know. Look at the other prices.

Don't all of these comps make you feel better about my current price point as not being far off of a 2005 price.

08/29/2006 #22B $437,500;
06/14/2006 #23B $455,000;
07/15/2005 #4B $480,000;
04/20/2005 #11B $387,500;

Slope,
The market is what it is, you are slamming me based on original purchase price and filling in with an appreciation level that you would have liked to have seen happen, but that does not mean that that is the truth.

Yes, your comments are laughable. Your price is laughable. If your price point is right, the city has now been frozen to a halt. Real estate brokers, go find other jobs. No more property will be traded.

LOL, ok 50% of $525K is $262,500.

Your cherry-picked comps somehow led you to $539K. Now THAT'S a number without any basis in reality at the present time.

jim - welcome to the "cast of characters." you are now one of them. you are a contributing player to the "arc of the story" now.

truly fascinating how PAS thinks (in his own mind only) that he sits above the fray (perhaps on his high-floor balcony) and claims no "name calling or personal attacks" when he is the one doing most of it. he slowly turns those who even have a little support for him or perhaps see that he does have a perspective against him by way of his "mean, rude" posts and "attacks" against others. do you think he really doesn't know?

"As long as it's an arms length transaction (i.e. not a sale to a family member), units don't trade lower than market, they trade at market since that sale defines the market."

While, technically you are correct, when a seller goes to price his unit he has to look at the prices and the circumstances under which those prices were realized. What if you lived in a building where relatives sold to relatives all the time and their were no outside sales? Is the value of your unit determined by the clan that lives in your building or by prices in the larger market? By the way, this is how condo conversions are done, and you should see the market vs. insider pricing spreads. Oh yeah, you can't get the clan price from those guys. Just try.

Ok Jim, I apologize for asking about your experience in this field. I didn't call you names, I was just trying to figure out if you had any empathy for my position. I have been on both sides of the table, by the way.

"You're pricing at peak for your building (or near it....I took your analysis for the sake of the argument) while the general market is off much more. That's the basic fact, which has been pointed out here by many,and you try to cloud it by supposed comps."

Jim, the comps are real and just settled and have real data from ACRIS. How can you call them into question? You think I am pricing at peak but the truth is I am pricing off of the peak.

sticky,
A seller is free to choose any number he likes. Here is an equally valid price: $479,999.99. These recent comps were discovered yesterday and I struck my $539k price months ago. Hmmm, perhaps I am too low and need to raise my price.

buster,
Ok, besides the case of relatives, circumstances can force a seller to take a low price. If the unit is flipped the next day for a much higher price, does that mean the whole market moved that much in one day? No, it means the first seller sold too low.

By the way, real estate agents are usually the masters of flipping because they have low transaction costs, know how to get deals sone quickly, and look for opportunities to arbitrage the market.

I was talking to a real estate agent once about some properties. He mentioned one that he had sold at an incredibly low price, way below comps. I expressed surprise and asked the agent why he did not flip the unit. He said that his buyer had had three offers rejected and he felt like giving the guy a break. Stuff happens.

""As long as it's an arms length transaction (i.e. not a sale to a family member), units don't trade lower than market, they trade at market since that sale defines the market."

By the way, the opposite case also happens, where friends or relatives collude in order to try to raise the price of units in a building. I once heard of of someone engaged in this practice. How do you feel about that trick?

And the trick works by selling through some circle or friends in order to try to artificially raise the price. Shill buying, in effect.

"If your price point is right, the city has now been frozen to a halt"

Well, that's basically what's happened - virtually nothing is moving now. IMO you are unrealistic in your price point. You paid $270K for the apt in 2005 (according to ACRIS) and fixed it up somewhat - so throw in $50K in improvements. That gets you to $320K. Add another $30K for inflation over the past 4 years. That gives a $350K price point. Yet you are asking for a price that is a full 40% higher - ain't going to happen. Yes, you may be correct that almost every other seller is asking for similar prices, but that just means that in the current state of play almost all sellers are deluded. I would advise you to accept any offer in the $400K range (assuming you get any offers at all).

I have heard you advice BS man, and will file it accordingly.

Adding numbers to a purchase price in order to arrive at the sale price is not how it is done. I don't think agents price this way either. The comps I posted have settled. Check it out. People price based on what is on the market and what has sold. I knew an original purchase price on my unit would throw all of you into these sort of arguments. The original purchase price does not set the current market value of an asset, any asset.

"The original purchase price does not set the current market value of an asset, any asset."

The original purchase price does give a sense to people about how much of the bubble needs to be corrected before prices are considered "reasonable"

Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble. Who is heading up the committee on "reasonable" pricing this month?

I want everyone to go out there and take issue with the price of all goods they see on the street, food, clothes, taxi rides, theater tickets, everything. Explain to all the sellers that you want to know their original cost basis and that you will then give them a price that seems "reasonable" to you. You will soon starve.

"The original purchase price does not set the current market value of an asset, any asset."

Agreed, but that's why I added $70K to the price to account for the improvements you made and the effect of inflation. Anything above that is gravy. If you get too greedy (as it appears you may be), you will lose out on the chance to sell for a FAIR PRICE TODAY and will be forced to sell AT AN UNFAIRLY LOW PRICE in the future. If you don't having any pressing need to sell and just hope to find a sucker willing to pay $489K, that's fine - good luck to you - there's a sucker born every minute. But if that sucker doesn't come along and you really do need to sell (b/c of your personal financial situation or b/c you need to move, etc.), you will find that you've screwed yourself over. JMO.

"People price based on what is on the market and what has sold."

You are entitled to price based on whatever factors you like - but why get indignant if people think you are being unrealistic in this environment?

"I want everyone to go out there and take issue with the price of all goods they see on the street, food, clothes, taxi rides, theater tickets, everything"

People do everyday - it's called supply and demand. What happened when gas went to $4/gallon? People stopped driving as much.

You seem to be somewhat unaware that the economy has collapsed in the last 6 months. Are you denying that there has been a bubble in Manhattan RE prices? Are you denying that the bubble has popped? What do you think happens when a bubble pops? If you don't know, look at Internet stocks from 2000-2003, oil prices from July 2008-present, etc.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/7973-what-else-is-negotiable-in-this-market

BSexposer beat me to it. here is a short thread from a while back. EVERYONE is taking issue with the price of goods these days...and getting concessions.

since 407PMS claims to be ignoring my comments, someone else please post this link to an NYT article...FROM 2 MONTHS AGO. i think we can all agree that things have gotten worse. this article talks about how people have been "going out there and taking issue with the price of all goods."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/29/garden/29stores.html?_r=1&ref=garden

More name calling from the StreetEasy crowd. Anyone who buys now is a sucker. A seller who sets what he feels is a fair price is greedy. These statements demean all buyers and sellers. You people demean the very process of selling goods in a free market society and you think I have a problem.

Sellers who expect a fair market price for their assets are not greedy. They are acting in their own self-interest, as is to be expected. Every seller, regardless of their personal circumstances, should be paid a fair price for their assets, based on what those assets are worth on the free market. Naming a price in the market and waiting to see the demand, is not a crime, or something that should be subjected to the kind of ridicule I see on this board.

Your additional $70k has no basis in reality and is still pricing up from the purchase price. It just does not happen that way.

"You are entitled to price based on whatever factors you like - but why get indignant if people think you are being unrealistic in this environment?"

I am indignant because you people seem to be missing some basic concepts of economics, the stuff I picked up from the economics lectures that I did not sleep through in college.

PAS--as a casual reader, I have found this thread amusing. You need to take the advice given by some folks and let this go. This is a battle you cannot win. Consider it a tactical retreat. Cut the loss and do some damage control, although given the amount of damage I am not sure if you can control it.

BTW, if you took 400K today and invested it wisely, it could easily turn into $500K in a year or two. Many assets (unlike Manhattan RE) are selling at extremely depressed valuations and would make exceptional investments. But if you are stubborn and wait a year and THEN take $400K, you will have missed out on this appreciation. OPPORTUNITY COST IS KEY IN EVALUATING ANY INVESTMENT DECISION - including the price you accept for your apt.

BSE--I agree with your opportunity cost point, but what assets would you buy in today's market? Gold price has gone up too high. I have no interest in putting my money in a distressed hedge fund. (I have been talking to hedge fund managers about individual investing, but all they say is to put money in their funds.)

"Anyone who buys now is a sucker. A seller who sets what he feels is a fair price is greedy. These statements demean all buyers and sellers."

I think you are taking things way too personal - these types of decisions need to be made w/o emotions involved. And, yes, for the record I believe that anybody who buys assets that have been artificially inflated b/c of a bubble a sucker and those who refuse to sell when the bubble is beginning to deflate greedy. No offense intended, but what else can I call such people??? If you bought tech stocks in 2000, you were a sucker - if you refused to sell them in 2000 b/c you demanded a higher price, you were greedy. Simple as that. Now, if you don't believe Manhattan RE has been inflated by a bubble the past 10 years, it's another story - personally, I believe it's OBVIOUSLY been a bubble and it OBVIOUSLY is popping now. Again, just my opinion.

"what assets would you buy in today's market"

I mean, pretty much any high quality public company is trading at attractive valuations today. Look at a company like Coke - 13X earnings is historically low - and their earnings will continue to grow year in and year out. Look at some of the major oil companies that have fallen so much, like Conoco. Look at a company like Kraft. Just some names to throw out there - but the bargains in the market are plentiful right now if you know where to look, even with the recent run up.

Well-stated BSexposer -- I don't think it is demeaning to anyone to point out a sincerely held view that this is a crazy bubble ,,,even still...and should not get sucked in.

Investing unwisely in risky investments could yield me $325k on that money in a year or two. Nobody can predict future prices and so therefore, every investment has risk, no matter how wise we are. That's just the truth. Your logic does not justify dumping my property on the market at this time and the prices you pull out always amount to dumping. I will see how the season progresses and advise.

Stop calling for the thread to end. We live in a free society and people can debate for as long as they like. I am surprised that anyone thinks that damage has been done. What exactly have they pinned on me?

* I bought the unit for less than I am asking, as are thousands of people in the market.
* My apartment was originally listed for $539k and is now listed at $489k.
* I have not sold yet (a crime committed by thousands of units on the market)
* I am looking at the demand at this price point. So what?

My goodness, can't you see through all of this nonsense? These posters really have no good arguments to use against me. Everything they pin on me could be applied to thousands of sellers, so, therefore, they are attacking all sellers, all of whom are greedy, paranoid, delusional, etc.

The amount of vitriol these posters have unleashed on one person is kind of stunning. I am personally responsible for the price of apartments in Manhattan and deserve all of this enmity. I admit, I did it. I drove the bubble, all by myself, and as prices are easing, I am trying to destroy some sucker out there by selling him my apartment.

Oh, at least someone can live in my unit. It is hard to live in a share of GE stock and well, there are lots of people stuck in crappier apartments than the one I am trying to sell. I know, I have met some of these people.

The people I have met are called potential buyers, and they are, by and large, nice people who are looking for a decent place to live. They do not feel they are suckers and are quite capable about making up their own minds about what a piece of property is worth to them.

Let's try another track. What do people think this property WILL eventually sell for? I'm putting the over-under at $350,000. What do you think? Higher? Lower?

Here's my argument for the lower:

(1) $350,000 would mean OVER 50% appreciation since 2003 (since 407PAS paid $225,000). That's an incredible amount of appreciation in 6 years. Nearly 10% PER YEAR. That was certainly possible once upon a time in Manhattan, but no more.

(2) Using 407PAS's OWN ESTIMATE of the amount he cold rent it for ($2800 to $2900), the break-even point would be $279,000 (using reasonable assumptions of 20% down, 5% mortgage, 30 years). Even if you account for a premium for ownership, I don't think that premium is more than $71,000.

So, all of you are advocating that nobody should buy any real estate assets at this point, no matter what? How is this going to help us out when people need housing for their children, other people want to trade up into larger spaces, etc. Do you think this really makes any sense?

We can disagree about the fair market value of my apartment, fine. You people seem to advocate complete paralysis of the real estate market as being something that is going to help get us through this crisis. I don't get it.

"These posters really have no good arguments to use against me. Everything they pin on me could be applied to thousands of sellers, so, therefore, they are attacking all sellers, all of whom are greedy, paranoid, delusional, etc."

You think people are attacking you, yet we are actually trying to help you - your emotions are getting in the way of rational thinking here. What's wrong w/ lowering your ask to a reasonable level??? You don't have to accept any bid - and it might just start a bidding war. If you leave your ask at an unreasonable level - and I think it's been unanimous in this thread (except for you) that $489K is unreasonable, given the current economic environment - it will just dissuade potential bidders IMO. As far as someone living in your unit - yes, but they could easily rent a comparable apt for much cheaper - so unless you think people out there are desperate to own (as opposed to rent), it doesn't really matter that they can live in your apt. They will chose to rent instead - or buy, if an apt is reasonably priced (i.e., comparable to renting).

"Investing unwisely in risky investments could yield me $325k on that money in a year or two"

Who said you should invest unwisely??? Is the stock market riskier today than it was in late 2007, when it was peaking? I don't think so. The market goes up over the long haul - the safest and best time to buy is after it crashed - that's how you make the best returns. Ask Warren Buffett - be greedy when people are fearful and fearful when people are greedy.

I am advocating that no one buy in Manhattan until prices return to sane, non-bubble prices which reflect some sane relation to rents, incomes, property prices elsewhere, etc.. What is a sane level? No one knows for sure, so it's a personal question.

When you're dealing with an obvious bubble it isn't logical to look at "the market" because that just reinforces the tautology of bubble-logic, greater-fool demand for apartments. The only way out of a bubble is to start asking "what makes sense?". Again, no one knows for sure, but many feel we are still in crazy bubble territory, which is why many feel the market still has a long way to go down. Although the past purchase price is irrelevant for any specific apartment, a vast appreciation in prices in general is relevant as indicia of a bubble, so a return to pre-bubble historical prices of several years ago would be a sign that prices are returning to sanity. Again, no one knows what was the "pre-bubble" date precisefly but many think it was early in this decade.

Morever, Manhattan had not only a price bubble but is now seeing a huge downturn in the local economy that is more than cyclical but likely reflects a permanent downsizing of the finance industry in terms of both numbers employed and compensation levels.

The continual slamming of an owner, his price, and the asset he has on the market is not being helpful.

Eventually, the general readers of this board will have to realize that the people here often seek to demean and damage all properties under discussion.

"The continual slamming of an owner, his price, and the asset"

Has anybody slammed the asset? I think it's a nice apt - I think most people would agree. Has anybody slammed you personally? If you think people suggesting that you are asking too much is a personal attack, then I guess so. You keep claiming that people are attacking you - but aren't you "attacking" those that disagree w/ you (i.e., those abstaining from participating in what they believe is a bubble)? I mean, it's a 2-way street here.

"I am advocating that no one buy in Manhattan until prices return to sane, non-bubble prices which reflect some sane relation to rents, incomes, property prices elsewhere, etc."

I agree. I think there are many other assets out there besides Manhattan RE which are incredibly attractive - including RE in other parts of the country where prices have reached what looks like rock bottom levels. Why invest your hard earned $ in assets that aren't attractively priced???

Hold the phone, PAS.

I didn't just pin it on you that you bought the unit for less than you're asking. I pinned it on you that you bought in 2003 (generally agreed as being in the beginning of the bubble) AND MOST SIGNIFICANTLY that you began asking 2.39 times your own purchase price! Not to mention you reply four freakin times to every comment on here, bumping your thread ad nauseum and forcing a spotlight on a small unimpressive coop--the vitriol isn't surprising.

While "thousands of people in the market" might be trying to sell for more than they paid in a bubble year, few are trying to get more than double their own price in such a short amount of time.

Yes, people have continually slammed the asset, unfairly, I think. Yes, I have been attacked personally, have been called delusional, greedy, crazy, etc. I turned off sniper's comments but could certainly find lots of hatred directed at me in his posts, if I chose to do so.

I defend my price with recently settled comps and get an extended lecture on how my asset should be dumped at a ridiculously low price.

Like others have mentioned, people buy for a variety of reasons, in all markets. The people on this board are arguing that all buying should cease. How realistic is that?

"Yes, people have continually slammed the asset, unfairly, I think"

Well, I haven't seen anybody say it's not a nice apt - admittedly I haven't read the whole thread.

"The people on this board are arguing that all buying should cease. How realistic is that?"

Hasn't this already happened? All I keep reading about is how there is now a standoff btwn buyers and sellers, neither side willing to budge.

"I defend my price with recently settled comps and get an extended lecture on how my asset should be dumped at a ridiculously low price."

Wouldn't $400K be significantly more than you paid for it 4 years ago? Why would this be a "ridiculously low price"??? I don't understand your POV.

My point of view is that assets should sell for a fair market price that is determined by the buyers in the market and that this price has no relation to the original purchase price.

BSexposer: "Wouldn't $400K be significantly more than you paid for it 4 years ago? Why would this be a "ridiculously low price"??? I don't understand your POV."

Let's be perfectly clear--he paid $225,000 for it in 2003. He is now asking $489,000. That is 117% appreciation in 6 years, or 19.5% annually.

So even IF he got $400,000, that would be roughly 77% PROFIT in 6 years. Just an incredible figure. And, frankly, one that I don't think is possible. He can keep trying, but it won't happen.

As I've stated before, I think the proper over-under for this apartment is $350,000. $350,000 put it at a 50% increase in 6 years.

Kindergarten

I have sent a note to the StreetEasy administrator asking him for a feature where the original creator of a thread can close the thread from further postings. In the interest of fairness, I think the original creator of the thread should be able to post the last comment on the thread and close it.

In the absence of this feature, how do we halt discussion?

407PAS: "My point of view is that assets should sell for a fair market price that is determined by the buyers in the market and that this price has no relation to the original purchase price."

I AGREE with you. But here's the problem: YOU DON'T HAVE A BUYER.

So, until you find a buyer, the BEST evidence we have of the value of this apartment is the price someone last paid for it--in this case, $225,000 in 2003. And it's just NOT likely that this asset has appreciated by 117% in 6 years. Just not happening. You can keep yelling about the market all you like, but right now, the market is saying "no thanks."

407PAS: "In the absence of this feature, how do we halt discussion?"

WOW. This from Mr. I Believe In Freedom of Speech.

Here's a tip: if you want to cut out 50% of the chatter on this thread, JUST STOP POSTING.

"In the absence of this feature, how do we halt discussion?"

I think it's safe to say that the thread will end when you stop responding to everybody. LOL. Seriously, let's agree to disagree and call it a day...

Slope,
Your comment is plainly silly. The sales of comparable units indicate a possible value of the apartment, not the price the unit sold for back in 2003.

Again, I ask us to close this discussion. I will be leaving shortly and will not be able to post until later tonight. I ask that everyone refrain from posting, so that I can summarize my feelings and put this thread to rest.

Is that possible?

Good idea on the ability to close a thread 407PAS. Undoubtedly the owners and administrators of an ad-supported website would like to add features that would tend to reduce the number of clicks. I see your understanding of Internet economics is of a piece with your grasp of real estate economics.

"WOW. This from Mr. I Believe In Freedom of Speech."

Look buddy, I will go to 10,000 posts, if you like. I think we have all had a chance to say how we feel. If not, then it can continue.

I think as a matter of courtesy the original poster should be able to close off a thread.

To allow all of you to go on posting without hearing from my side is to allow your charges to stand without any rebuttals. That is not fair to me.

Before we call it quits, let's make a pact. Whenever this apartment is sold, someone PLEASE post the final sales amount on this thread. It looks like we may have to wait a bit, but PLEASE, PLEASE keep checking.

"To allow all of you to go on posting without hearing from my side is to allow your charges to stand without any rebuttals"

Haven't you given your side about 200 times already? I'm beginning to suspect you enjoy keeping this thread at the top of the list. Well, I've had my say. Obviously you aren't going to change your views - so good luck to you - I hope you enjoy living in your apt for the next few years, b/c it's not going to sell for anything close to $489K, I'm sorry. Cheers.

For those of you who haven't figured it out, there are only two or three real human beings posting on this thread (and yes, I am one, and no, I will not tell you who they are). Every other poster is a "bot poster" from an MIT university project pitting teams of students against each other creating artificial human intelligence "bloggers". Obviously, the programming lacks some nuance, but they are working on it.

BSExposer,
See, you attack me once again by saying that my place will not sell and then wonder why I respond. Is it any mystery, really? Do you people think you can determine what price an asset should sell for on the market? There is a lot of arrogance on this board in terms of everyone's pronouncements on price.

Sure, I will post a final price or one of you will see one day in your travels. That's the same for all settled properties. If I had a listing on StreetEasy, you would receive a notification, but, of course, StreetEasy does not play fair so I cannot purchase a listing.

Anyway, I will post my final thoughts later tonight or tomorrow and hopefully we can just put this to rest.

407PAS, I read a number of streeteasy posts and have followed many of your writings, but this is the first time I have ever posted myself. I just couldn't help pointing out that for your own sanity, you should stop defending your price to everyone. The people arguing with you clearly don't intend to buy your apartment, and they clearly think that you have it overpriced. But if you are comfortable with your price, then leave it. Either listen to everyone's comments and lower your price, or stop worrying about it. Arguing is a waste of your time. Best of luck.

You know, since supply is way up from 2003 levels owing to all the new construction & office conversions, and demand is way down from 2003 levels owing to stricter lending practices and banking sector layoffs & smaller/fewer bonuses--shouldn't economics dictate that he get LESS than his 2003 price?

PAS--i just checked in after I posted my last one a couple of hours ago and am amazed at how many postings have been put on. I think you would be doing a favor to stop doing this as you said. However, it would be a terrible, terrible idea if a thread could be closed at the request of the pweson started discussion. I have been reading this site only for the past couple of months (and I actually like to meet two Steves who seem to hate each other so much), but you seem to have been visiting this site pretty frequently, so you should have known that you are opening a can of worms by posting your property on a discussion thread. If your thread were to be allowed to be be closed by you whenever you wanted, it would be just an advertizement. In any case, let this go. And go fight your war, which is to sell your apartment. Again, as a casual reader and a person who has absolutely no interest in whether you can sell your coop (and at what price), I suggest that you read all these postings a few days later after you are calme down a bit and put yourself in the position of one of the potential buying crowd, and then you may get some sense of what sort of damange this thread has done to your cause. In any case, I wish you good luck in selling your coop.

Just in case some guy tells me to leran how to spell. I suspect I am way over the average age of the frequent visitors. When I started working, I very often used a dictating machine. Also, this site has no spell checking stuff. So my apology in advance for my typos.

ue10021: Why not just hold off on posting until Steeteasy lets
you post using dictation? No rush, this place will still be
on the market.

"Why not just hold off on posting until Steeteasy lets
you post using dictation? No rush, this place will still be
on the market."

Why not just wait until you can post your thoughts by mental telepathy?

i have decided to go back to school and get a master's in psychology. PAS will be my thesis. there is enough to work with here for a few lifetimes. I am going to need a team of assistants if anyone is interested.

this stopped being about price, features, apartments, etc. a long, long time ago. it has mostly been about PAS's need to be right and his desperate need to get the last word in:

"I think as a matter of courtesy the original poster should be able to close off a thread.
To allow all of you to go on posting without hearing from my side is to allow your charges to stand without any rebuttals. That is not fair to me."

you are OUT OF YOUR MIND dude. you don't OWN the thread, you don't OWN the discussion any more than Einstein OWNS the theory of relativity. the fact that you think you do is not only misguided but pathetic.

"Look buddy, I will go to 10,000 posts, if you like. I think we have all had a chance to say how we feel. If not, then it can continue."

you HAVE said what you have to say...you just like saying it OVER AN OVER AGAIN. go to 10,000 posts...i will go to 10,001. you have fostered an environment here where people DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE THE LAST WORD regardless of what it is (or maybe that is just my take - i could be wrong - an idea that never enters you warped thought processes).

"I turned off sniper's comments but could certainly find lots of hatred directed at me in his posts, if I chose to do so."

no you didn't. you can't. it just isn't in your nature and we all know that about you now. why would you even be mentioning me 200 posts after you "ignored me?" (have i gotten into your head that much?) don't lump everyone in with me. if you can't handle my harsh realistic view and brutally honest perspective then don't blame everyone else on here. if people started "attacking" me for my posts in this thread then i might fight back for a bit but after a (not so long) while i would have to realize "hey, maybe i am being a real a-hole? why do i need to battle with these people anymore? it is not getting anywhere." i have gone easy on you. as i said a few posts ago, you leave so much low-hanging fruit it is like playing a video game on the beginners level. even if you did ignore my posts plenty of others have picked up the torch and you are just as happy fighting with them.

"I will be leaving shortly and will not be able to post until later tonight. I ask that everyone refrain from posting, so that I can summarize my feelings and put this thread to rest."

hates to breaks it to you BUT NO ONE WANTS A SUMMARIZATION OF YOUR FEELINGS. it is not like that is the big finish we have all been waiting for. this has NEVER been about YOU to anyone but YOU. somehow you have successfully made this whole thing not even about YOU anymore by at some point making it ALL ABOUT YOU (yes, i know - very confusing to me too). quite a feat. and it sure as hell is not about FEELINGS! the only thing you could possibly say (and surely won't) is:
"after thinking about it, a lot of you guys made some valid points (except sniper who is just a pr*ck) in reference to comps, pricing, features, etc. i see your view. i feel differently about it and i am going to try it my way first. i will let you know how it goes and if things change."
but you just don't have that kind of humility in you. you will end with something that makes people have to respond to you once again.

am i way off here???

Did everyone take their medicine today?

ROFL, did anyone else notice that PAS's original comp just got reduced since he cited it:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/391640-coop-240-east-35th-street-murray-hill-new-york

Now it's at $656/sf, which if applied to PAS's apartment would yield $410K. Not to mention it's a top floor apartment so it's private outdoor space is a true terrace, which is more desirable than a balcony; it also has a true foyer, as opposed to PAS's which opens directly into the living room.

His two sales comps have maintenance almost half his, and they have better architectural features (a true foyer and crown moldings).

whathappened: I never responded to a comment like yours. Comments like yours don't add anything other than your own satisfaction, although many people on this site (and other sites) appear to vent whatever personal feelings this way. You can respond, but I won't.

Stay strong PAS

I have decided that I will only discuss my property with interested buyers who email me on my account at 407PAS@gmail.com.

That's all folks.

Ok...goodluck 407PAS, let us know when u sell.

Is there a reason for such high maintanence in this building and in that comp someone just mentioned?. Is it something about the lease of the ground or what? and does that have something to do with the area of Manhattan or when built or something...I dont know...Personally it's a huge issue for me bec/ once you get to well over a 1000 it's like 30% of the rent.

pwnt.

And. . . scene.

Is this like when the door closed at the end of the Sopranos?

jim - i knew i forgot something! i take the "medicine" comment in good humor...not as an attack.

407PAS - better late than never. i too wish you luck in selling and always have.

It's not over yet, folks. I just asked Curbed to post about PAS's douchebaggery, namely the fact that he vehemently defends his asking price of more than double his 2003 purchase price of $225K. Help me out & shoot them an email, how lulzy would it be if they put a spotlight on Mr. Bubble.

Uh...this is a free country. Let any seller ask whatever they want, obviously. If the market is falling apart the seller asking too much will regret it later, because they will have to sell at an even lower price. If the seller is correct, the seller gains. The market will decide, not typing furiously.

Everyone on SE should encourage free expression of views,so it isn't right to hound someone just because, in your view, they are asking too high a price. A zillion sellers in Manhattan are sitting on huge dumb-luck gains in this market, and if they can sell before the bubble bursting gets them, such is life.

am i speaking for anyone else when i say that i can't wait for this 407 unit to wallow for months and months till the OP gets a nice big slice of dammit-i-shoulda-listened.

"sitting on huge dumb-luck gains"

Yes, that's what happens in a bubble. I think what 407PAS fails to grasp with his "400K is an absurdly low price" attitude is that no apt owner is ENTITLED to such gains AS A MATTER OF RIGHT. If you can lock them in by selling, great; if you hold out for more b/c you are greedy, you are rolling the dice. To each his own - all I know is that $489K for a 650 sq/ft apt (and that's being generous - it's really more like 550-600 sq/ft) in this market isn't going to work out too well. But let him learn the hard way if he's going to be stubborn.

Lol Jim, yeah it's a free country & the seller can ask whatever the fuck they want. The flip side of that free expression of views is that we can snicker and roll our eyes and say whatever the fuck we want. Lurking outside his apartment and accosting him is wrong; commenting how overpriced his apartment is on a REAL ESTATE DISCUSSION FORUM isn't wrong.

PAS: "I have decided that I will only discuss my property with interested buyers who email me on my account at 407PAS@gmail.com.
That's all folks."

Is he really going to stop posting here? Why do I doubt it?

I was referring to bringing up an individual seller in another forum to "put the spotlight", not in anyway suggestion you shouldn't point out your view of the market. Why demonize one person..there are a zillion apartments I see all over nyc with delusional sellers.

Because his post got 500 comments so I think Curbed readers would enjoy it. Yeah there are many delusional sellers in Manhattan but few asking more than double what they paid in a bubble year for a small so-so coop apartment with high maintenance. His delusion is particularly egregious.

"Why demonize one person..there are a zillion apartments I see all over nyc with delusional sellers."

Didn't he start the thread? And continue it ad naseum? I don't think he's been demonized, I think he brought the negative pub onto himself. Most delusional sellers don't post incessantly about their delusions. But I have to admit that, if nothing else, it's good entertainment while you're stuck at work.

i agree with jim.

what i think he means by "demonizing," etc. is YES we should battle back and forth with PAS here but to start campaigning against him on other sites is taking it too far. keep it on this battlefield (thread). just my take. we all know that the market with determine price no matter what we all say.

Exactly.

Times are tough enough without needing to hire security guards for the open house.

I will be attending the next open house and will be bringing $489,000 in cash with me, so I hope there are security guards there. (Sorry, I can't resist piling on - shameful, I admit)

Get a life. How can one person trying to sell an apartment for more than it is worth merit almost 500 comments?

Familiar with this property. It was constructed in the late 80s, just as the market was peaking. Developer basically defaulted, bank owned half the units in the building, and it was a mess throughout the 90s. Building is saddled with huge mortgage that last I knew had a high interest rate -- hence the reason so much of the maintenance is tax deductible.

Look out moma there's a white elephant coming up Park Avenue South (nee 4th Ave). 407PAS...goodbye and thanks for all the fish!

look out momma :-)

Good move (at last) trying to kill this thread, 407PAS. I am interested to see if it will die. One thing I am wondering is simply: have you entertained the possibility that prices will continue to fall? I understand where you think your propery is valued now (and why), though isn't it possible it will depreciate in the next period of time? I just hope you are contemplating this as you are clearly strong minded. Do you have an advisor (trusted friend, etc. - not someone who has a stake in it, though) who has read this all and told you what he/she thought of it? I suggest having such a friend take a look - couldn't hurt.

I'll take the over on $350K (not by a ton), and I get the distinct impression that $225K was a pretty good deal in 2003.

bump

... and we have 500, ladies and gentlemen!