NYC - desirable?

She's so full of shit. Her statement just proves that rich people aren't going to leave NY because of a slightly higher tax burden.

They'll do things like use their second place as their address.

I already know folks who are thinking about it. If I had that option, I'd consider it.

People who are inclined to do so are already doing it. Maybe the proposed tax changes will cause a slight uptick in the rates.

The eventual solution would be a massive increase in property taxes, with a property tax rebate of equal amount that's only available to primary residents. Sort of like Super-STAR.

"They'll do things like use their second place as their address"

Better hope you don't get audited. That's called tax evasion.

"Her statement just proves that rich people aren't going to leave NY because of a slightly higher tax burden."

They will if they're smart. Enough is enough with the tax increases - the dumbasses that run the NYC govt added tons of useless employees to the public payrolls during the boom years, now the rest of us (i.e., the productive people) are supposed to pay their salaries via higher taxes???? Well, guess what - most people aren't going to just sit there and take it up the ass. Manhattan ain't all that.

Bye bye.

It's like saying that rich people are going to start shopping at Conway because Bergdorf or Saks raised their ridiculous prices by five percent. Maybe they'll lose a few aspirational lower-middle-class shoppers, but that's about it.

Personally, I am reassessing moving to NYC. Last year I was pretty certain of it. Now, I'm considering a smaller, cheaper, pied-a-terre for weekends and such--staying under the 183 day limit to avoid income tax. I could make do with a smaller place since I wouldn't need as much storage, no need for office, etc. I think I could get a place so that my housing cost for two places would be roughly the same as a large 1BR in the city. It would save me in the low 5-figures/year.

this article is on point. many people are feeling the squeeze -- an additional tax of $50K/year is enough to think of moving. banking and investing that $50K over 10 years will go a long way to have people rebuild/further build upon their wealth.

If you only make $100K a year -- you would not understand that welath building model on the same level. If you make $5 million/year -- you are stil capable of building wealth with the incremental tax.

"It's like saying that rich people are going to start shopping..."

What do you consider rich? Making 500K in NYC is like making 200K in Chicago - it's far from rich.

"Under the plan, the PIT on pre-tax income of between $297,000 and $532,000 would jump from 3.683 percent to 4." That's $327 extra for every 100k in additional income. Also known as lunch for two at the Four Seasons.

Nobody who lives here has made that decision based on a financial model alone. The decision is made primarily on lifestyle issues, because it's always been much more expensive in NYC than in most places, with the resultant impact on investable cash.

And if you think a pied a terre and the back-and-forth that comes with it is the same as living here, good luck to you. Maybe it's a better lifestyle for you (for me such it would be all about optimally warm weather year-round), maybe worse, but it's not the same.

"And if you think a pied a terre and the back-and-forth that comes with it is the same as living here"

Oh, I certainly don't. But it might be a reasonable option for me.

I've also considered Hoboken, Jersey City and the outer boroughs but the trade-offs weren't worth it.

"Also under intense discussion yesterday as lawmakers rushed to complete a budget by April 1 is a proposal to raise the state's 4 percent sales tax to 4.5 percent the total of which would jump to close to 10 percent in parts of the state with the addition of local sales taxes.

The sales-tax hike, too, would sunset at the end of next year or in early 2011, legislative Democrats said.

While Paterson has repeatedly claimed he was against a "millionaires' tax" on the very wealthy and hasn't backed a sales-tax hike, the sources said he was privately backing both.

The current top tax rate is 6.85 percent for all incomes over $25,000 a year. Sources could not say yesterday what the rate would rise to for incomes over $500,000. "

6.85 to 10 percent is a huge hit. Period.

I heard that proposed taxes between fed -- city -- state could be an additional 10 cents increase per dollar for people $500K and up. That is a tangible difference.

"I heard that proposed taxes between fed -- city -- state could be an additional 10 cents increase per dollar for people $500K and up. That is a tangible difference. "

yep. the more income one has coming from investments and earned income that can be done from everywhere, the more people will claim they live on states w/out income taxes, like florida and texas. it's more complicated to do in a dual earned income couple though, as both need to be flexible in order to avoid those state/local taxes. why not? voting with your feet is the only vote albany might listen to after all. i'm thinking about it myself, within the next decade to a place without state/local income taxes, a more promising economy and better weather.

it's not only about the extra 10% tax, it's also about expectations of where future taxation is heading towards. with adds saying "don't cut health care!" 5 minutes after albany proposes a much needed cut on spending and with severely unfunded public pensions one doesn't need to be a genius to see inevitable higher future taxes coming along.

"i'm thinking about it myself, within the next decade to a place without state/local income taxes, a more promising economy and better weather"

Nevada and Texas - both have no state income tax. Much better weather than NY. Texas is faring comparatively well economically, NV not so much.

yep. i'm considering north texas, dallas for ex.

I hate when empirical evidence gets in the way of advocacy:

"But even experts who oppose such taxes on other grounds — out of fear that they will retard economic growth and innovation, or encourage lawmakers to indulge in bouts of new spending — concede that there is not much evidence that raising taxes on the wealthy would drive out a significant number."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/nyregion/19leave.html?ref=nyregion

Let's put this particular argument to bed now.

Malthus - you are in denial - taxes do matter - why do you think the population in the NE of the US has declining (in relative terms) and the SE of the US has been on the rise over the past 30 years???? It's b/c if you live in the NE you get taxed up the ass. Thank God for federalism - I can leave this POS state of NY whenever I want and go somewhere better.

Yes, the SUPER RICH will live wherever they please, regardless of taxes, but for the WORKING WELL-TO-DO (i.e., 200K to 800K range), taxes are INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

...sorry, meant SW of the US.

BTW, the theory that taxes are unimportant must explain why Derek Jeter tried to claim he lived in Florida, why the vast majority of European athletes pretend they live in Monaco, why UBS was setting up offshore tax avoidance trusts for the rich, etc etc etc.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311830,00.html

Obviously taxes matter, but only on the margins when it comes to choices of where to live. Why don't all the "working well to do" already live in Texas or Nevada? If you are truly trying to reduce the reasons for US migration to taxation, it is you who are in denial. In fact business tax rates are a bigger driver than personal income taxes since that leads businesses to decide where to create jobs.

Mainly articles like this are designed to scare people. I liken it to all the folks who threatened to move to Canada when Bush came into office. Some likely did, most didn't and it didn't matter anyway.

Of course people have to go where the jobs are. But they only stay as long as they can bear it. I know a lot of people that came to NYC for jobs over the past decade who have left. Was it entirely b/c of the taxes? No, but I'm sure it had SOMETHING to do w/ their decision to leave - that, and the fact that NYC is a dump, that everything is ridiculously expensive, that it's not family-friendly, that you can't really have a car, etc. Also, we are in an entirely new atmosphere these days, where everybody thinks it's a great idea to attack the "rich" - whoever the "rich" are - apparently ppl in bumfuckville think that EVERYBODY WHO LIVES IN NYC is "rich", which is a complete joke. Wait and see what happens when they jack up the "rich people's" income taxes in NY - I guarantee you it will not only drive people away, but it will also convince ppl not to move to NY in the first place.

So Jeter and European soccer players are now in the "working well to do" category? Wouldn't you concede that a guy who can afford multi-million places in two locations is not really a good example? How about a guy who doesn't work during the coldest months of the year? You can do better than that.

No, the Jeter / Euro athlete example was to counter your argument that the rich don't care about taxes when they decide where their residency should be. You are just wrong. Why do all the hedge fund billionaires live in CT?

"In fact business tax rates are a bigger driver than personal income taxes since that leads businesses to decide where to create jobs."

No doubt they will jack these rates up as well. Face it, the politicians in Albany and the one in NYC are clueless. Their stupidity will ruin NYC - watch what happens over the next 5 years. Get ready for the return of the Dinkins era.

"Why do all the hedge fund billionaires live in CT?"

Because their offices are in Greenwich or Stamford. Or maybe, like you, they think NYC is "a dump". But why Connecticut after all? Why not Texas?

Malthus - you REALLY ARE a simpleton, aren't you? THEY COULD LIVE IN MANHATTAN AND COMMUTE TO CT IF THEY WANTED TO - SO WHY DON'T THEY, IF IT'S SUCH A WONDERFUL PLACE??????? B/C THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY THE INCOME TAXES!!!!!!! DUH. As my father likes to say, NYC is a nice place to visit, but he would never want to live there. As far as "why not TX", quite a few hedge funds are in TX, mostly energy-related hedge funds though.

BTW, I live in NYC despite the fact that it's a dump, b/c of my job. If you've been OUTSIDE OF MANHATTAN at any point in your life, you would realize that IT IS IN FACT A DUMP COMPARED TO MOST OF THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. Ever been to Colorado? Virginia? Hawaii? Need I go on????

Oh I think you do need to go on, but perhaps on a couch with qualified therapist somewhere.

Whatever - you are obviously clueless. Good luck in life - you will need it.

Good luck to you in Colorado. Godspeed.

You should venture outside of NYC and see what the rest of the country has to offer. Seriously. You are a typical NYC snob.

"People who are inclined to do so are already doing it. Maybe the proposed tax changes will cause a slight uptick in the rates."

Absolutely on the first. Tons of people already doing it.
And the rates will increase... personally I think more than a "slight uptick", but thats debatable.
And then add in people who will actually move. The illegals will just be icing on that cake.

I don't think this is folks uprooting families, I think this is folks who have already had some flexibility, just making sure they cross the "official" line by voting and moving some mail over, etc. Consider that there is a lot of significant income made by folks who don't go into an office.

You don't need it to be a whole bunch of 'em. Right now, the top 1% pays HALF of all city and state taxes. A few of 'em can move the needle quite a bit.

BSexposer, you are like a Rufus recharged...
People with money go to CT because of the schools, the country clubs, the expansive planted garden and 8-car-garages, and also to be with people like them. Many people comes back to NY out of sheer boredom. I moved there after selling in Tribeca and never even entertain the idea of doing it for tax reasons, and, though money is a main conversation theme there, never had anyone stating that taxes were the reason...Fortunatey I sold in CT a couple of years ago...

So now I'm a snob because I disagree with you and hope that you move to where you will be happier? Your problems go deeper than I thought. I have lived in several places inside and outside of the US and I have yet to insult any of them on this board. You called NYC a dump several times in the past 20 minutes. Who is the snob?

"As my father likes to say, NYC is a nice place to visit, but he would never want to live there. As far as "why not TX", quite a few hedge funds are in TX, mostly energy-related hedge funds though."

that's exactly what i'm thinking. with the $ i could save on capital gains tax, i can show up twice per year with my family and enjoy NYC as a tourist. in the long run living in a touristic city is not the smartest thing. i'm young and just starting, but will get the hell out of here when the right time comes.

Are you blind or something???? Look around - everything smells, garbage strewn around, dog urine every 20 feet, buildings black from decades of pollution, decripit subway system, beggars and homeless kids everywhere. If that's not a dump, what is? Get out of your box.

Not to mention the weather sucks - but I digress.

***rufus alert!***
***rufus alert!***
***rufus alert!***

Mimi - yeah, schools and county clubs matter also, it's all about the whole package. All I'm saying is that taxes are a big part of that overall package. And jacking up taxes in NYC will drive the productive people away, leaving the dregs.

Obviously there are several million people who disagree, including me. Sorry you are stuck here but some of us are here by choice and we wouldn't choose to live anywhere else at this point in our lives.

BSexposer: Rufus on steroids.
Darling, there are millions of people that think that NY is THE place in spite of the garbage and decrepit subway system. Not everybody likes the clean, dead CT ambiance. For some, CT resembles the tranquility of cemeteries.
Nobody asks you to like it or to stay in NY. Try Chicago.

also it's hard not to feel you are in a 3rd world country when in la guardia or jfk (compared to dallas and even oklahoma they are embarrassing, falling apart and dirty). nyc lovers could claim that's because people use them, as they come to nyc and not to the other 2. newark is nice though. airports are just the warm up that the tourist receives before the real deal: the subway! ever been on a subway wondering "is the roof gonna fall on me?" LOL that could be part of the charm of nyc, that feeling of constant struggle.

hey, about this discussion on non-income states, any thoughts on whether texas, for ex, will have to change course and tax them? or whether any state will switch towards not taxing income?

Smart people come to NYC to make enough $ so they can get the hell out and live somewhere decent. That's all there is too it. If you want to stay here and donate 90% of your income to supporting a bunch of deadbeats doing nothing all day in a city govt job, be my guest. I sure as hell am not going to do it. I give enough charity - er, taxes - to the federal govt as it is.

BSexposer: Sorry I have to ask -- Why are you on spending your time on real estate boards of a city you hate so much that is so obviously circling the drain?

"BSexposer: Sorry I have to ask -- Why are you on spending your time on real estate boards of a city you hate so much that is so obviously circling the drain?"

B/c it amuses me that ppl think they deserve $1000/sq ft for a piece of crap apt and get indignant if somebody tells them that it's overpriced. THE GREED OF SELLERS IN NYC IS UNBELIEVABLE. I was on these boards a year ago and all the bulls were so GODDAMN ARROGANT about the prices - now look what's happening. My sister kept telling me I should buy a place here, but I said hell no, prices are absurd - SO IT FEELS GODDAMN GOOD THAT MY OPINION IS BEING VINDICATED.

Mimi - I've been to Chicago a number of times. Great city - too damn cold though.

"Obviously there are several million people who disagree, including me."

A lot of them don't pay much in taxes, I bet - freeloaders. BTW, there a few things I like about NYC - the women are attractive and you can earn a lot of money here (at least, until 2008 you could). But I'll be damned if I'm going to support a city govt that loads the payrolls w/ workers they never needed to hire in the first place and won't fire now that the economy has plummeted.

"Sorry you are stuck here but some of us are here by choice and we wouldn't choose to live anywhere else at this point in our lives."

Good for you - I'm glad you like it here. I would like it here a lot better if I wasn't getting fleeced everytime I turn around - taxes, MTA fare hikes, $20 cocktails, and, best of all, having the privilege (if you are dumb enough) of going into massive debt in order to pay $1000/sq ft ($1000!!!!!) for a piece of NYC real estate. SIGN ME UP!!!!!!!

BS, I'm with you in ringing the schadenfreude bell on obscene overpricing and have been for a long time on SE, but if you see zero appeal in NY, you need to get out a hell of a lot more. Take a half day walk some weekend. Seriously.

I never said I saw zero appeal - I just think that NYC, physically, is a dump - which it is. And I don't like having my $ stolen from me by the city & state govt. That's all. Do I think there are nicer places to live? Yes. Would I rather live in Afganistan? No. Not being from here, it irritates me when people who live here act like Manhattan is the center of the universe - it's not - get over it. That somehow some magical quality makes Manhattan "better" than the rest of the world, justifying ridiculous prices for RE, food, etc. So I like to take the piss out of these type of snobs.

"B/c it amuses me that ppl think they deserve $1000/sq ft for a piece of crap apt and get indignant if somebody tells them that it's overpriced." - omg, new yorkers get indignant about something! uh what is it with all the softies on this board! i have never seen such a bunch of babies in my life. if u have a problem with high or low prices don't buy or don't sell.

"decripit subway system" right - enough said

"You should venture outside of NYC and see what the rest of the country has to offer." - boredom

"B/C THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY THE INCOME TAXES!!!!!!! DUH." - u r clearly new to the city. people either get it or they don't.

"As my father likes to say, NYC is a nice place to visit, but he would never want to live there." - as my grandfather says - u r not a kid any more make up ur own mind

"Good for you - I'm glad you like it here. I would like it here a lot better if I wasn't getting fleeced everytime I turn around - taxes, MTA fare hikes, $20 cocktails, and, best of all, having the privilege (if you are dumb enough) of going into massive debt in order to pay $1000/sq ft ($1000!!!!!) for a piece of NYC real estate. SIGN ME UP!!!!!!!" - it is pretty obvious that there are sacrifices to live here. what i don't get is the sheer number of people who move here that are too stupid to realize that and then complain when they go broke. it's like moving to kansas and saying "wow it's so boring". no shit. if you can't handle the subway fare hikes then i don't think manhattan is the right borough for you...and buying shouldn't be ur top priority, hustling should be

"it is pretty obvious that there are sacrifices to live here"

You can fight back. I walk to where I want to go, I don't take the subway. I refuse to buy overpriced RE, shop at Dean & Deluca, pay $20 for a martini, etc. The only reason prices are so high in NYC is b/c up until now EVERYBODY BOUGHT INTO THE MYTH THAT RIDICULOUS PRICES ARE FOR SOME REASON JUSTIFIED IN NYC. Thankfully that myth is in the process of being shattered.

Clearly your plan for taking on the snobs of NYC and living here in your own way is working out for you BSex. Keep on finding that inner peace that makes you such a pleasant and happy person. PLEASE GIVE US THE LAST WORD IN ALLCAPS SO I CAN FEEL YOUR FURY!!!

I think NYC is the best place to live in the US. If I didn't think so I wouldn't live here. And I wouldn't sit around my keyboard bitching and moaning about it either.

"I think NYC is the best place to live in the US. If I didn't think so I wouldn't live here. And I wouldn't sit around my keyboard bitching and moaning about it either."

Well, I guess you are one of the many people who don't have to bust their ass to support all of the rest of the freeloaders in this city - either that or you are so deluded that you think it is a PRIVILEGE to hand your money over to the govt in order to live in this nirvana of NYC. Unlike you, I actually try to fight against the BS I see going on around me. Year after year I watched Manhattan RE prices climb - year after year I thought it was getting more and more ridiculous and refused to be financially irresponsible by plunging into debt to partake in the bubble - and then I would come on msg bds like these only to see the ppl who had bought gloating and calling renters bitter morons. Well guess what - IT'S OVER JOHNNY - now all of those same smug ppl are going to experience what happens when you gamble w/ your life savings by buying into the top of the market. So to all the snobs who STILL think that they deserve $1000 per sq ft for their apts simply because "NYC is different", I say good luck - you will need a lot of it in the coming years to avoid disaster. When prices finally reach sensible levels - or better yet, undervalued levels - I may put some of my hard earned capital to work as an investment - but not a moment sooner.

"Keep on finding that inner peace that makes you such a pleasant and happy person"

Not doing dumb things financially makes me happy - not blowing my life savings on an overpriced apt making me happy - BEING RIGHT MAKES ME HAPPY. Thx.

"Absent an unlikely 11th-hour bailout from state lawmakers, the MTA board will vote tomorrow to enact a "doomsday" operating budget that includes large fare hikes and widespread service cuts throughout New York's transit system."

Enjoy your great subway service! It might be gone soon. Lots of good all those tax receipts during the boom years did for the MTA. LMAO. BTW, I won't be participating in any MTA bailout b/c I boycott the subway. Get more exercise that way too. LOL.

http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-limta246081348mar24,0,7918167.story

And this just in...apparently Albany has NO F'ING IDEA there is a major recession underway...

"Despite a ballooning budget deficit and a hiring freeze that has been in place for months, the state government added hundreds of six-figure employees last year, an Albany-based research organization reported Monday. In 2008, state agencies added 232 employees with base salaries exceeding $100,000, according to the Manhattan Institute. [New York Post]"

BUT LET'S ALL JUST BE HAPPY PAYING MORE TAXES SO WE CAN SUPPORT THESE FINE NEWLY-MINTED STATE EMPLOYEES - IN FACT, LET'S EMBRACE AND CELEBRATE THE FACT THAT WE WILL SOON BE PAYING EVEN MORE OF OUR INCOME TO THE GOVT (OR, RATHER, THAT THE GOVT WILL BE CONFISCATING EVEN MORE).

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/democrats-in-disarray-as-elections-approach/

for many, especially in creative fields, there are no jobs outside of NY, so it's not like you can make the same money or even get a job. also, if you've been buying and selling real estate, then you've benefited from the rising prices. anyway, i love new york. i marvel at it daily.