Lining Up At Elite Schools - Go Figure!

There are some odd zigs and zags in the high 80's around Park and Lex where several zones meet. You can look at the boundaries here: http://maps.nycboe.net/ . Use the address finder at the top to find a building (e.g., 1075 Park), then click elementary schools & zones and the red lines with the zone boundaries will come up. I would call the borders irregular in places but not obviously gerrymandered.

Also, on the north side vs. south side question, I believe that the boundaries always go down the middle of street and avenues. That way they do not split a block. What I mean is that if, for example, a boundary was on the south side of a given street (vs. in the middle), then buildings on both side of that street would be in one zone and the next buildings to the south (the back door neighbors on the north side of the next street) would be in another. However, over on the avenues the boundary would literally have to go between two buildings somewhere along the block (or if the building filled the whole avenue frontage of a block, it would have to go in one zone or the other, but based on what?) Deciding down which streets to put the boundaries may look random - and it may be random, I don't know - but it has to be easier that splitting hairs between two adjacent buildings or one that effectively straddles two zones. Or maybe I misunderstood your point and have just wasted a lot of time with my reply.

I don't think there's any great conspiracy or gerrymandering . . . they simply need to guesstimate how many more kids they'd wind up with if they drew the line here, or how many fewer kids if they drew the line there, to do the best possible job of preventing overcrowding in any particular school. Not an easy task.

alanhart - agreed, although is does become political when the estimates prove wrong or demographics shift and DoE has to adjust the boundaries to rebalance the catchment areas. People who have made major financial decisions about where to live based on catchment area get very agitated when lines get redrawn to their perceived detriment. Witness the current controversy about rezoning UWS catchment areas. On the margin, this could account for some of the irregular boundaries as school age population shifts over time, but no doubt your core point captures the essence of the process (i.e., practical, not political)

alanhart: That's basically correct, at least on the surface. Our neighborhood received an intensive education in the process over the past nine months. As you say, the official analysis and planning are driven by target and projected seat-utilization levels.

Once the analysis is done, though, and the maps and charts have been embedded in PowerPoint files and written to PDFs, a second phase of bare-knuckle politics begins. That's especially true if actual schools are being moved, rather than just boundaries. I'll leave it at that. Our school has emerged relatively unscathed so far, and early celebration might jinx the result.

sidelinesitter: I was typing while you posted. Clearly, we agree, and we've been watching the same events.

watchnwait -

I think you are missing the point.

You said "Is this because thousands of young families can't seem to sell their apartments, so they're trapped in Manhattan with kids?"

But that was looking at it the wrong way.
It's like saying that the high number of applicants to available seats in the ivy leagues is because people don't have any other choice due to being trapped somehow - rather than it being a desirable thing that they are/were pursuing.

I did not say that this trend will continue to grow, I pointed out that the growth that had already occurred and this was the reason the current crush. If you have been following the stories on school overcrowding in these "elite" schools then you would know that each year in the last few years the enrollments have gone up dramatically. PS234 in tribeca for example currently has 15 K classes this year, up from 5 a few years ago.

This article has a handy graphic showing downtown preschool enrollment growth.
http://www.tribecatrib.com/news/newsjune08/Crowding060804.html
So since 2003 these families have been trapped in Manhattan, unable to escape?

I actually agree with though that there should be some easing as families where the parent(s) have lost their jobs need to move somewhere cheaper but of the current K classes this year in ps234 (about 350 kids so let's say 200 families), there are no significant losses.

I don't see this as a fad though and you don't need millions to raise kids in the city. It aint cheap, granted, but it is doable. Go to urbanbaby.com and read the message boards where parents freely talk about HHI (household income) vs number of kids vs size of apt. Plenty of ppl make big bucks but plently are firmly middle class and raising kids here. As cost of housing decreases (to rent and to buy) then the equation in favor of staying becomes even more favorable.

BTW, you would be surprised at the diversity in one K class alone in ps234. I know of one wall streeter in ours and I know all the parents.

I must say the city is a great place to bring up children. When they're little there are scores of kids to play with on the playground - with much superior equipment than you'd find in a suburban backyard. In rainy weather there's the Museum of Natural History. (Some nasty weekday check out the 'gems and minerals' room. It's all carpeted stairs and you can hardly get in it for the strollers parked outside.) Later, when they're in high school THEY DON:T DRIVE! I can't tell you what an advantage this is for parental sleep - particularly when they go (as all kids will anywhere) to questionable parties and come home "not feeling well"

Hear, hear. I am sure I sound repetitive but if you 1) have enough space to feel comfortable in (subjective) and 2) are zoned for a good school/guaranteed a good private - you are golden up until the middle school years. If your oldest kid doesn't test into a good middle or get into a private, then consider moving to the burbs. That buys you at least 10 years in the city after spawning. Not a bad stretch, IMO.

I think a lot of folks are missing something.

I have to figure this is mostly the effect of parents getting shut out of good public schools. All the big deal stuff on the UWS, lots of complaining parents. I figure short term this could easily send some shut out parents over.

Short term, this is a response to a new situation, and parents can't move that quickly.

Long term, this just added a significant cost to living in NYC with families... that won't help real estate now that parents have one more thing to worry about.

PS 6 zone has a border on Park Ave, so not all odd numbered buildings south of 91st are zoned for PS6. The borders are zig-zagged, roughly 5th to Park from 66 (?) to 91, and then there's a wider area in the middle (70s, 80s) where you can be as far east as Lex or 3rd depending on the block. This means that 1474 Third & 1438 Third are zoned (notice they're on the left side of 3rd) but further south and north, you have to be west of Lex or on left side of Lex. The old Gimbels condo conversion is zoned for PS6, for example. Again, further north & south of that, you have to be west of Park or on left side of Park. Got it?

Not confusing at all...

Don't forget, these are all families fretting over their first-borns. Once you have children in the school & you're zoned for it, it's a lock for future siblings. So you have to worry once. Also for G&T, the DOE recently changed cutoffs for siblings, so siblings don't need as high a score to get into the same school as older siblings.

its bordering on moronic how nyc10022 will pull theories out of his ass to try and justify his pro renter slant. Now he is an expert on school systems int he city vs those in the suburbs and he actually lies that schooling in the city "adds more cost to living in NYC with families" whenif he knew anything about schools and living in the city with families is that the city public school system is great and ten times better than those in the suburbs. It is also cheaper tax wise for a family to live in the city in a good public school zone versus the taxes to live in a good surburan school zone.

He will lie through his teeth.

moron. renter. serf. unemployed little assistant junior trader.

One interesting thing to note is that parents zoned for PS75, 163, 165, 166, 84 (can't speak for 9) have used the lottery to jockey for spots in PS199 & PS87. This is over for PS199 and I think for PS87 (this year, as zoned kids are on waiting list, per NYT). I'm hopeful that this means that PS75, 163, 165, 166, 84 will soon improve (maybe 75, 166?) to the point that they in turn cannot accept variances. For a lot of people, if you are able to do public school in NYC, moving to Westchester/LI/NJ is no cheaper. If both parents work, the afterschool programs in public schools generally ensure that the parents no longer need babysitters as opposed to working in burbs and having longer commutes. Also, think about needing at least one car, maintenance on a house, property taxes in the burbs. I hate giving hypothetical #s but imagine a family on UUWS whose housing costs are no more than $5000 net - what can that buy you in the burbs once you include the cost of a car, property taxes & upkeep?

Trinity parent I think my beloved late mother would have disagreed with you violently about the impact of the city on a the ability to sleep for the parent of a teenager. True it was a very different city in the 1970s but thinking about your offspring riding the subway at night or hanging out in any of the numerous "known drug locations" was hardly condusive to REM or even closing both eyes. I remember she would tell suburban based friends "it may be a pain to take them everywhere but at least you know where they are". Moving to the burbs wasn't an option for us economically and my parents didn't want to commute so basically from the age of 12 on I had free run of what were at the time fairly mean streets. It was fun...but if I had kids I don't think it is what I would want for them.

property taxes on a home in mont clair, nj which is a good school zone will run about $25K per year in just property taxes. Living in an apartment in NYC of the same price range is a $2-3000 per year in property taxes. Living in a Brownstones of greater value in NYC $3-5000 per year.

property taxes on a home in mont clair, nj which is a good school zone will run about $25K per year in just property taxes. Living in an apartment in NYC of the same price range is a $2-3000 per year in property taxes. Living in a Brownstones of greater value in NYC $3-5000 per year.

nyc0022 you know so little about raising kids and schooling here.

How do you think schools like ps234/ps89 ever got the DOE to even consider building two new k-8 schools in downtown? The DOE have their own inane methods of determing school seat needs and this is based on school districts which are huge:
http://www.unhp.org/crg/indy-maps_schools_mn.html
District 2 covers most of downtown, midtown and the UES.
It took a very involved, concerted, time consuming effort by many parents in the PTAs of these schools (over a multi-year period) to get the DOE to act. Just another headache to add to living in Manhattan - yes you're right - but it's worth it as are many things in life.

Good think then Lizyank that we are not in the 70's.

perfitz, you do not help our argument by spouting nonsense:"the city public school system is great and ten times better than those in the suburbs"

No it is not. That is why there is such a fight to get into the few good schools/zones, that's why there is an need for the G&T programs, that is why schools like Hunter, Stuy, Andersen exist. The norm is not excellent nyc public schools but there are some excellent ones.

I do agree on the taxes though.

> nyc0022 you know so little about raising kids and schooling here.

Yes, I have no idea given that I was raised here, schooled here, live here, work with schools here, and have a DOE employee in my immediate family.

Tell me again what I don't know about....

divvie - as a whole the NY public school system is head and shoulders above anything you will find in suburbia. Sure there are some schools in the city that arent great but the suburbs as a whole suck. in the city you have G&T, charter, magnet schools etc combined with some damn pretty good zoned schools.

Do you think there is anything like NEST, Stuyvesant, LaGuardia etc in the suburbs?

then how come you were completely wrong in your posting? Oh and having an aunt working for the PS system doesnt make you an expert. Wall Street wannabe lacky

hey nyc10022 I have a black friend therefore by your logic I am an expert in racial relations.

"ell me again what I don't know about...."

What did I say about the DOE? Did I praise it?
What did I say about raising kids as opposed to having being raised as a kid?

Missing the point much?

Lizyank: "It was fun...but if I had kids I don't think it is what I would want for them."

I gather we're around the same age, and both grew up in Manhattan. So my reply is that it was really really really fun...and if I had kids I know it's what I'd want for them.

Did you grow up in Westbeth?

pterifizz -- where did you grow up? What schools did you attend?

> Missing the point much?

No, because you HAD NO POINT.

You gave no specific refutal of anything, just "you don't know anything".

Generally the people who scream loud and make no logical argument just have nothing to say.... and you've pretty much proven thats you.

And, perfitz, don't get me started on you. 'Aint nobody who knows less about EVERYTHING that you....
You are the running joke of this board (you have the title solo now that rufus 'aint here).

The streets have been cleaned up, the crime rate has dropped remarkably and the number of excellent public options for elementary school has indeed increased. I'm not sure if that is true of secondary school (or even middle school in some areas). Unfortunately the number of applicants at Stuy, Hunter, Bx Science, Townsed Harris et al far exceed the places and from what I hear (on Streeteasy among other places) local public high schools are just about as bad as they were in my day. Which puts a hell of lot of pressure onto 14 year olds to make it into Sty etc... I don't know what the alternative would be unless you were comfortable with a Catholic, Jewish or "elite" private and I would have to pick none of the above. Commuting would kill me...but I guess I would sign up for four years in Westchester or Jersey or wherever (sob, sob, sob) running back to the city the moment the last hs dipolma was in hand.

The number of applicants might be way up for Stuy (.125 acceptance rate), but I know of not one person whose children didn't make it in. The bottom line is that if you're smart and make your children's education a top hands-on priority, they'll do very well academically regardless of what schools they go to. As for the other seven-eights, who cares?

I grew up in Westchester and would NEVER go back there. It's BORING - not interesting like the city and not beautiful like the country. My experience can be summed up: summer - lying on my stomach in the back yard watching ants and waiting for school to start. winter - sitting in school and waiting for the other kids to get it. The snobs were just as snobby as any city snobs, just the criteria were even sillier and smaller. I got out of there when I was 17 and never went back. I would never subject my kids to that stultifying life. (Can you tell I didn't like it?)

nyc10022 - I am the running joke but you are the wall street wannbe RE owning wannbe who has never bought or owned but sits on this board all day trying to convince people that you know about real estate. Yeah I am the running joke. you can keep laughing at me all day long as long as you send your rent check on time otherwise I'm going to have to ruin your credit and keep you deposit.

serf.

Calm down nyc10022.
Let me use your comment that I was replying to in order to help you see the point.

"Long term, this just added a significant cost to living in NYC with families... that won't help real estate now that parents have one more thing to worry about."

I replied that parents are a lot more resilient and resourceful and gave you an example of how the ps234/ps89 overcrowding committee (consisting of many parents) worked overtime to significant cost (to use your term) in order to address this successfully with the DOE. It wasn't easy and it took a long time but the effort was worth it.

So then, pterifizz: where did you grow up? What schools did you attend?

alanhart - what does it matter where I went school?

Because it might be useful to know which schools to avoid.

i have a masters in chemical enginnering and an MBA from Penn

Penn is a university, not a school.
What schools did you attend, pterifizz?

i overcame my early education. i didnt go to great elementary or high schools.

I'm glad you can admit it. And you communicate effectively, despite your inability to write (spell, punctuate) properly. It takes a big man to admit that his early education failed him.

What "not great" elementary or high schools were those, exactly?

i type on my iphone while working so forgive the lack of punctuation and spelling mistakes. Fat Fingers.

no one your business. Alan what is your social security number?

So you're going to spout off about NEST, Stuyvesant, and LaGuardia but you can't disclose a simple nonpersonal piece of information like where you went to school?

And why do you assume that I have a Social Security Number?

I didn't grow up in Westbeth although not far away actually. I'm trying to remember if I knew any kids who did...I think they tended to be more of the "hippie" type and my friends were more "Saturday Night Fever" before it became a national craze. The tent pole locations of my misspent youth were Blimpies on 6th Avenue and some of our local parks, wherever the cops decided NOT to harrass kids hanging out and committing "quality of life offenses", on any particular week. The idea of idle youth hanging out in West Village today consuming bad wine and worse pot cracks me up, what if someone were to puke on their new Marc Jacobs shoes? Definitely different than the stuff we bought (or in some cases stole) on 8th street.

My Westbeth friends (and I) were more of the "punk" type (before it became a national craze...that took 15 years and a revival). But I grew up on the UWS, where (true story) a cop asked us to go across the street (to someone else's beat and a different precinct) to continue smoking weed ... but we felt it was more that he was personally offended that we were sitting on church steps while doing so, and that otherwise he wouldn't have bothered at all. We wore skips.

Near enough to 8th St., on LaGuardia place, was sprayed in huge letters on the side of a supermarket "FREE FOOD FOR THE TAKING".

pterifizz, which schools?
rufus, which way does 7th Ave. traffic run?

"i overcame my early education. i didnt go to great elementary or high schools.

How so? You can't read or spell, you don't understand math or finance....
And you're on record for the worst investment decisions in the history of this board.

If that is "overcoming", I'd hate to see the kids who didn't "overcome".

nyc10022 i am worth over $11 million. how about you?

What a shame that you'd define your worth in monetary terms.

Schools?

over 40 million people experienced my work last year.

who the f cares where I went to grade school? It was in suburbia.

"over 40 million people experienced my work last year."

Best sentence I've read in this whole thread.

bjw - as opposed to your "i have bilked millions of people out of their life savings by offering shitty health insurance coverage and caused millions to go into bankruptcy at the same time their health and well being are at their low point?"

Yes, way better.

BJW - you could alway write "i denied coverage to a person using some stupid loophole which caused them to not get the treatment they needed to live..."

pterifizz: suburbia? I'm surprised. I was sort of figuring you grew up in that Swedish city that's the main manufacturing center for Saab. The name escapes me right now. Can anyone remind me?

Okay - so I've been watching this for two days now - and I'll throw in my own 2 cents. If you love your kids, and treat them well - your kids will all be okay. They will get good educations. They will complain about doing homework. They will do stupid things. They will grow up. They will not turn into dullards. If you send them to public school they will be fine (but you will have to spend more time making sure that they are challenged). If you send them to private school they will be fine (but you will have to make sure that they don't become snooty). Best of luck!!!

For full disclosure: I went to public school in Brooklyn up to high school (PS 8) and to a private high school (Saint Anns).

These threads always start out interesting and then they disintegrate into penis-measuring. Oh well.

12 inches and thick

Trottelhatten or something like that

More like pissing contests. Piss everywhere!

"Living in an apartment in NYC of the same price range is a $2-3000 per year in property taxes. Living in a Brownstones of greater value in NYC $3-5000 per year." - - I may be completely misinformed, but HUH???? Did you mean $35,000/yr?

divvie -- thanks for jogging my memory. The place that I naturally just assumed pterifizz is from is called Trollhattan, and it's a real place! It's just like Manhattan, only different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trollhattan

october, you're basically right. But I should add the dirty little secret about today's "prestigious" NYC private schools: virtually every child at these schools (in early elementary school, at least) has a private tutor in-home, which leads me to believe that the schools themselves aren't doing a very good job teaching and/or motivating.

Houses in Brooklyn do have remarkably low RE taxes. Perfitz is right about that number. Just do a search here on SE.
The apt tax number is too low though. Depending on size and area (let's assume prime Manhattan) then it should be around $5K to $12K per year - excluding 421a and J-51 places exlcuded.

alan - the funny thing is that I have a friend who tutors these kids! My thought (without any evidence) is that tutors are just the latest arms-race for parents. First it's get your kid into a good pre-K program, then it's best private school, then it's the most interesting after school activity (soccer is so old - my son plays cricket), then it's SAT classes, then it's tutors, then it's good college application activities (my son works in a soup kitchen every week, etc., etc.).

petrfitz, are you seriously calling other people serfs? To many in my circle, $11 million is less than the estimated value of their furnishings. I'm a former Dragon (St. George's) and I would never call someone else a "serf;" no matter how little money they have.

Parkside you sound like a tool. I married a billionaires daughter. My son could buy St Georges on the trust he recieved at birth......serf

Actually, if we are talking about class distinctions, marrying a billionaire's daughter is of no relevance. Status tradionally comes from the husband, not the wife. Which means you and your wife are new money. How unfortunate. And do you really think you could buy St. George's? They would never let you on the lawn.

Petrfitz - let me get this straight:

40 million people saw your work last year

you have a 12 inch penis

you are worth $11 million

your kid is in your "dream school"

you "collect" everyone else's rent

you married a billionaire's daughter (yet somehow your net worth is $11 million? did she make you sign a pre-nup?)

are we supposed to be envious of these things? they seemed to have added up to a bitter, unhappy mess.

oh my goodness. 12 inch penis, billionaires daughter, disgusting preschool media products, trust funds 'received at birth' (whatever that means), $11 million net worth: it's so hard to keep up.

it's interesting that petrfitz has nothing meaningful to brag about: he doesn't claim to be bright, talented, helpful, caring, or self-sacrificing. instead, he wants to be esteemed for being mercenary, hung, and crass.

here's a class distinction for both parkside and petrfitz: anyone signing in to an anonymous message board to claim his place in a high class group has no class at all. achievement and merit, not mercenary marriages and overrated prep schools, are the measure of a man.

I agree for the most part, HR. I went a bit overboard, because petrfitz is, well that has been well covered by others.

Merit, kindness, self-sacrifice; those are the measures of a man. I am bright, but I will not say that one must be bright to be a good person. There are many wonderful people who are not intellectually astute. Perhaps "achievement," but that is a subjective term. Merely accumulating wealth is not impressive. You have achieved because in addition to accumulating wealth, you work towards greater goals both civically and politically.

As to overpriced "elite" educations, I am with you. One of the main results of the "elite" private school system is to create pretentious, coddled children (and adults) who cannot see beyond their own tiny world.

Trinityparent - Glad you can afford the multi $35,000 tuitions at private school, the 1.5M dollar coop and the huge maintenance fees. Most people can't.

- Happy in Westchester (we are not all a bunch of dullards, and it's only as "stultifying" as you make it).

Well, that's where our investment money went. We told our kids: "You're our retirement fund." One's working on a PhD in neuroscience (luckily in science you don't pay tuition, you're a lab rat instead) and the other is working for a nonprofit in Bali, so it looks like we'll be eating catfood sometime soon.

trinityparent: Your kids sound pretty great. I doubt they'll let you eat cat food.

Hey Per - you sending your kid to Beginnings or City and Country. Reggio Model I assume is the new way of learning. Both are great schools.

There were shut outs at the top tier preschools this year and some kids had multiple accepts - it was different from last year.

The point being that we thought private school tuition was an investment -- even though it's not a safe moneymaker like Manhattan real estate - LOL

This is an interesting debate.

I don't think one needs to be ridiculously wealthy to raise one's kids in Manhattan. If you only have 2 kids, 3 bedroom apartments CAN be found for less than $1.5mm. Maybe they are not ideal, but it's do-able. You also don't need a car or at most need one (whereas in Westchester you need a car for each adult really), aren't spending $400+ a month on commuting to the city for each person that works. You also aren't spending the money/time maintaining a garden, etc. These things alone are worth easily $1,000 a month. That being said, property taxes are a bit of a wash vs. co-op/condo fees. A $1.5mm apartment is usually going to have around $2k a month in co-op condo fees, which is the same as paying $20-$25k in property taxes. You just have to want to make it work.... and frankly I think if both parents work in Manhattan, you almost have to live in the city.

On private schools vs. public - I personally don't feel strongly either way. I do generally believe that if you raise your kids well, they will find their path in life. Generally I think people put WAY too much emphasis on where people go to school - even college and graduate school. I went to a top 5 in both, and while most of my friends are doing fairly well now (broadly defined - not just financially), I know a lot of extraordinarily articulate, well-adjusted, and financially succesful people who went to State schools.

That said - I think at a good public OR private school your child is much more likely to be surrounded by motivated peers. I think this is increasingly important in middle school/high school, as kids spend less time with their parents and more with their peers. This to me is more important than "education methods" or "special programs." Of course, you can get this at a good public school as easily as a private school, but this doesn't mean people who send their kids to private schools are bad people. Kids generally get more individual attention at private schools, many have policies that make sure there are enough, say, soccer teams for every kid that wants to play soccer, many have abolished class rank. One could argue these things are bad, of course, and there is an obvious tradeoff of diversity/economic background of classmates, no matter how much private schools claim to the contrary. But I certainly respect parents who chose private schools for their kids, just as I respect parents who chose public schools for their kids.

I would like to provide my $0.02, especially for those who don't have a 300K-500K family income a year, and who consider that just because something is priced below 1.5M that doesn't mean it's affordable. Which is by definition 99% of US population, also in Manhattan. First of all, you can find a 2br. convertible 3 for 900K with maintenance of 1,700 within good school zones, such as 290 or 199 or 87, and that's only asking prices.

Second, I've researched the market in NJ like crazy for 3 years (2005 to 2008, when I was resigned to leave the city) and I personally believe that, commute expenses notwithstanding, it's way cheaper. In my particular case, I would feel too depressed to get up from bed in the suburbs, but we're talking cost here. You can divide the NJ towns within reasonable commute to the city in 4 tiers: upper crust towns, good town, not even OK towns, and awful towns. The quality of the schools goes hand in hand with income and etc, but the schools are OK even in most of the merely "good" towns. By OK I mean that SAT averages are close to 600 per section and 75%-85% of students go to 4-year colleges.

Upper crust towns are towns such as Alpine, Creskill, Saddle River and Upper Saddle River, Tenafly, Glen Rock, etc. Good towns are towns such as Rutherford, Verona, Montclair, South Orange, Leonia, Paramus, etc. Not even OK are Elizabeth, Rahway, Hoboken, Jersey City, etc. Awful are Newark and similar.

In this time of foreclosures you can find 3 or 4 br homes with 2 full baths, in good condition, for less than 500K in all the good towns and, with some luck, in some of the upper crusty ones. And the property taxes are NOT 25K in a 500K home. They are more like 15K, at most. In certain towns such as Paramus they're way less because there's a lot of commercial activity.

What I feel was misguided in many previous posts was that people were boasting of their ability to pay 1.2M for a 2/2 in Manhattan and, therefore, were probably assuming that they would pay 1.2 M for a 5 br/4 bt McMansion in NJ. Then your taxes would be 25K or more, for sure. But you don't need that to raise a family. Moreover, if you're contempleting the possibility of raising a family in 1200 sqft, you don't need to switch to 4000 just because you reached the suburbs.

In sum, I can assure you that in most cases property taxes don't even come close to the combined expense of Maint. and CC here in Manhattan, and even if that were the case, the difference in mortgage would be so substantial that it would offset all your transportation expenses and whatnot. It's way cheaper to live in NJ. Unless you spend a lot in antidepressants. So, I'm not recommending it, I'm just stating the facts.

It seems odd to compare suburban property taxes with NYC property taxes + maint/cc, given that in a suburban house you'll need to add in all the costs of actually maintaining the property: heat, water, landscaping, snow removal, capital replacement, exterior painting, etc. etc.

kspeak / Trompilico - just who do you think you are posting substantive, lucid, rational comments in the middle of the stream of ego and invective on this thread? If you're not careful, you'll spoil the fun of watching the spectacle of this juvenile behavior.

trompiloco, thanks for the dose of sanity. there's just no question that it is a lot cheaper to raise a family in the suburbs than in manhattan.

but there is a third option: the four other boroughs (and let's add in manhattan above 125th street) in which the vast majority of new york city residents live. if you like an urban setting but can't afford enough space in manhattan there are wonderful middle class neighborhoods all over brooklyn, queens, and the bronx. property taxes tend to be substantially lower in the outer boroughs, many neighborhoods have perfectly good public schools, not to mention good parochial schools that cost a small fraction the price of fancy private schools in manhattan.

a close friend of mine bought a six-family building in crown heights right near the 2 train. he has a wonderful garden with fruit trees, vegetables, and flowers, a large apartment for his family, and significant income from the rentals. this sort of thing is very doable and doesn't require a move to the suburbs.

I was going to scold you for referring to the three other boroughs as "the four other boroughs", but then you correctly identified them as BBQ.

Although Staten Island is a nice place for a country house.

alanhart, something's gotta give. You could also factor that child care will cost you 1/2 in the suburbs, same for any kind of activity you want to enroll your kids in, or that you would be able to buy bulk at Costco, or that you won't pay NYC Local Tax. I think the suburbs are definitely cheaper unless you want to go Mansion.

Happyrenter, what I've heard in forums such as insideschools.org and others is that B'klyn can work for PS, but that there are basically no passable options for Middle or High School. Whereas if nothing goes terribly wrong I think that an UES kid, and in a lesser degree a UWS kid, if he/she goes to a solid PS and does OK will get into an OK middle+high and come out of it with a reasonably good education. He may still decide not to go to a 4-year college (and not all 4-year Colleges are equivalent) but I'm trying to think in broad strokes here.

Tromp - just curious if you could show me where you have seen 4 bed/ 2 bath homes in the "good" towns? i have been looking over the last 6 months and haven't seen anything close to that in some of the towns you mention as well as Old Tappan, Rivervale, Northvale, etc. point me in the right direction.

"it's interesting that petrfitz has nothing meaningful to brag about: he doesn't claim to be bright, talented, helpful, caring, or self-sacrificing. instead, he wants to be esteemed for being mercenary, hung, and crass."

Of course, his claimed net worth double twice in just a couple of months.

All this while telling everying he tied up all his net worth (plus leverage) into real estate... all right at the peak of the bubble.

If his first lie was accurate, he's be down under a million at this point.

Sniper -- some friends of mine live in West Orange, which is a more socioeconomically mixed town near the fancier South Orange. I believe it's reasonably affordable and has good schools. I don't know if it has better and worse sections.

They live in a cute craftsman-style bungalow near Seton Hall Prep (which I list as a landmark, not because it's a school recommendation. I think my friends are going all-public.)

You might want to check out the area.

Tromp: Thanks for bringing this thread back into the realm of real estate (and sanity). Just a couple of points -- I wouldn't put Hoboken or JC in the same category with Rahway and Elizabeth (or with each other for that matter). Neither has good schools but commute time, convenience and general quality of life don't compare. Also you seem to leave out parts of Central NJ. People commute from places like East Brunswick, Edison, Metutchen, which have pretty good schools and are generally cheaper than places up north you mentioned.

alan- i have looked in that area (maplewood, milburn, etc.) but i would much rather commute by way of the palisades and we also have friends around that area.

> Metutchen

Yes, but there is a huge difference between the hour plus commute, and the being on the PATH train scenario.

Only one is a commute with a capital C.

South Orange is not fancy at all (it's a very liberal racially mixed town) and the schools there are merely OK. West Orange is down the ladder from SO and East Orange is scary. Edison schools are not as good, but the commute is good. Metuchen and East Brunswick are a long commute if you intend to do it daily. I would say 1 1/2 hour each way, and people tell horror stories about parking at the train stations.

sniper, I was extrapolating, to be honest. I've seen a few foreclosures in Tenafly below 500K and Tenafly is a perennial top 5 school. My inclination is to think that, if an average house in those places was selling for 800K at peak it can be had now, or soon, for close to half.

your inclination would seem to match most buyer's inclination (mine as well) except the sellers seem to have not gotten the memo. that is basically what 50% of the posts on all these threads are about. it is as if all the sellers know this too but no one wants to be the first one jumping in the pool by dropping their prices. the only ones so far are those that have been pushed in over the edge by the bullies named "foreclosure," "need to eat" and "ahead of the curve."

You don't need all the sellers to know... just one.

And they don't even have to "know". The just have to need to sell...

true, but a pool party is much more fun than swimming laps alone! everyone in!!!!!

To the original point of this post, at our "elite" private school (at which we are in the poorer set and got into by sheer luck) there are already at least 3 kids in our class who are not returning next year. This is out of a class of 15.

And, to someone else's comment, I too know partner at Goldman who send their kids to NYC public elementary. Not the same public as you note.. so there must be more than one.

There was also an article on how parents are paying monthly instead of yearly in case they need to pull mid-year.

newsflash from private-school-parents dinner party. Trinity, Ethical Culture holding steady, but 3x as many asking for financial aid as last year (this is students who are already in the school, not new applications). Nobody knows if endowments can stretch that far.

Anecdotally, this will be a good time for strong students to transfer to a private school in an off-year. Traditionally well-regarded schools will have no problem keeping enrollment numbers up but lesser private schools will go under. This happens in a weak economy all the time.

I watched the movie "Kids" the other day...it was like looking into the future of petrfitz's offspring

Except they're not in Nevada.

petrfitz is an idiot. I am sure your kids will grow up and hate you for your pompous views. You are exactly what makes most people sick when they think of the UES or UWS. Please do us all a favor and move out.

evillager - hows the unemployment line? I see that you are still obsessed with me.

NYC100022 - your envy over my 3rd vacation home in Nevada is getting boring.

kmedina - why do you say that? because i raise my kids well, keeping htem balanced but expose them to interesting things? By the way I dont live in the UWS or UES. What the fcxk are you talking about? is english your first language?

fitz family foto: http://tinyurl.com/a9qjzg

alanhart, that is truly awesome. maybe the mullet could become a fixture of the radical-chic look.

sorry petrfitz, I am still very much employed, although quite irritated that liberals like you are raising my taxes. won't hurt me so much, but surely will impact lots of independent stores and restaurants.