Kalahari vs. Northside Piers

Kalahari - much better transportation and a building that is 90% closed.

how about safety at night? Wife will be coming home sometimes after 10pm

For the millionth time, harlem is safer than most neighborhoods in NYC, and has been for years. Black people does not always = crime. Here are the FBI crime stats.

100= U.S. average
87 = Harlem per http://realestate.nytimes.com/community/harlem-new-york-ny-usa/demographics
102= Williamsburg per http://realestate.nytimes.com/community/williamsburg-brooklyn-ny-usa/demographics

Before some dummy does not bother to read the detailed stats - You are more likely to be attacked or robbed in Wburg than in harlem, slightly more likely to be murdered in Harlem, much more likely to raped in Wburg, and more likely have your apartment robbed in Wburg. So its slightly safer in Harlem even for "violent" crime types.

Northside piers will be a nightmare to get to/from if you work or play in Manhattan, 116th/Lenox much easier. Plus its 5 blocks from Central Park (if you use the south entrance.

Harlem SUCKS when it comes to restaurants and otehr services. They exist, but with NO variety unless you like Afro-caribean, afro-soul, soul-caribean, afro-fusion, you get the idea. (And I am black myself but god I want a Thai or Falafal place nearby.)

FYI, NYC average is 113. Harlem is safer than UES, Clinton, Chelsea, and a lot of trendier Manhattan neighborhoods per the stats.

There are some NEW restaurants and cafes popping-up along Lenox Ave, in addition to those that have already established themselves in the neighborhood: an Italian Tratorria on Lenox and 129th St, Winery on Lenox and 129th St, French Bistro on Lenox and 125th St, Cafe Latte on Lenox and 119th-120th St, etc.

Harlem's transportation options are almost unmatched! Options galore (buses/trains/cabs)....including the MetroNorth at 125th St and Park Ave as well as Buses that will take you directly to various airports.

Regardless of which neighborhood you decide to spread your roots......Good Luck with your new home!

jason, while I agree with your opinion and factual data posting about Harlem crime statistics, I do disagree with you on accessibility from Northside Piers to Manhattan.

Northside Piers is located 4 blocks, a quick 6-7 minute walk to the Bedford Ave L train stop. In less than 3 minutes from there, you are at the 1 Avenue stop in Manhattan. If you want to get to 14 St/Union Square, it is only about a 6 minute ride from Bedford Avenue to Union Square. About a 12 or 13 minute commute to Union Square is hardly a nightmare.

116 Street is a local stop on the 1 train, B and C trains and if you are headed downtown, the nearest express stop is 7 stops away on the B and C and 3 on the 1.

So, transportation wise, I would say Northside Piers is not a nightmare compared to Kalahari.

I think the biggest difference is if you want to live in Brooklyn or Manhattan.

jason10006, We love good and polite people color doesnt matter, and thanks for the info on crime stats. but it is amazing to me how wburg is not that much diverse , walk down on bedford on a weekend. Also wburg seems very close to union square with L train and we love Central Park but we also love being by the water. Tough call

You might want to read this Post article (linked in Curbed) about the RE bust along 125th St.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04052009/news/regionalnews/harlem_is_losing_a_bit_of_its_oul_162969.htm

simi, I agree with you. Williamsburg's Bedford Avenue is like a clone factory. Everyone (no matter skin color) is a hipster, wearing tight fitting 80s clothing. They all are so "hip" that it has lost its edge completely.

Even though Kalahari is in Harlem, it is more similar to the Upper West Side than the traditional Harlem people think of.

Either option is good, IMHO. I like Northside Piers amenities, and views. But I am not 100% convinced on the whole Williamsburg thing. I enjoy visiting Wmsburg, but I don't think I would want to live there. Big difference. But I would have no problem living near an Ivy League university.

Personal call completely. Good luck in your decision.

Kalahari's pct crime stats (26 Pct)
http://nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs026pct.pdf

Northside Pier's pct crime stats (94 Pct)
http://nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs094pct.pdf

thanks kingdeka and dg156, thinking about flipping a coin :)

jason10006,

thnx for your enlightenment, its greatly appreciated. NYC has improve greatly from the 1980's but NYC will always be NYC and will never be The Land of Make Believe.

So then Williamsburgh is The Land of Make Believe? I thought it was The Land of the Not-So-Great Unwashed.

I guess you like it,but I found the all glass thing at Northside Piers to feel a little weird, a little too fishbowly feeling, and it would complicate decorating I think. That side, it's a very nice building. Obviously you know this,,,but why not wait a couple or few months at least...given that there is zero upside from where you will buy (even the most optimistic don't claim any rebound in the offing) and very very substantial downside possible.

I happen to think all the high-rises will make Wmburg better because will lead to more infrastructure like bookstores, shops, etc.

If you are commuting to Manhattan from W'burg during rush hour, keep in mind that it is next to impossible to get on an L train at Bedford. The trains are packed by the time it gets there, so you sometimes have to wait for several trains to pass.

maraman..that does worry me about wmburg transport...What will happen when these high rises all fill up?. This potential transport problem (or should I say potentially much worse than it already is) is another risk factor that should negatively impact price of anything in Wmburg.

jimstreeteasy, you are right about the glass, right now it is very dirty , we were told that it gets cleaned a couple times a year and this expense is included in the common charges. About waiting to buy, our lease is up in less than four months and we feel like better apts that we liked and negotiated may sell, or may not.

woww maraman, thanks something I did not know , hmmm

Alanhart,

The comparison was NYC not being the land of make believe but your addition was funny.

I live in the Kalahari and I have a correction to Kingdeka's post: It's not on the 1 line. It's a half block from the 2/3, so it takes me half an hour to get to work in midtown, door to door.

That said, I take a cab home if the stores (and the next-door Shabazz market) are going to be closed. It's not that the neighborhood is so dangerous. It's that that stretch of 116 Street is pretty desolate--storefronts on the ground floor of the Kalahari are vacant—and that's what makes me feel uncomfortable if I'm alone at night.

ValB, how long have you been leaving in the Kalahari? If you take a cab home after hours, can you even go out for a walk at night to get a coffee, etc?

ValB, call me I will escort you.

If you don't feel comfortable in the blocks nearby late...that will deter many buyers, including me (a late night person).

I haven't, but that's because I don't drink coffee at night. There's an Italian place just north of 116 on 5th Avenue that looks like it has decent coffee/espressos/capuccinos. I would probably go there alone at dark--there's more traffic over there. There's also a Dunkin Donuts across the street from the front door, just west of that big church.

There's something else I would say about the building: I would steer clear of the apartments looking onto that plaza on the second floor. There are kids playing out there till pretty late at night. I would try to get an apt in Tower A that's facing north, or in Tower B that's facing south.

You know, it's only when there aren't any people around that I'm uncomfortable. When there are people, it's fine—like this morning, I left the house at 7:15 AM, and the street and subway were perfectly fine.

At Northside Piers, I'm assuming you're considering tower 1? Has tower 2 gone rental? My biggest concern would be how the overall economic health (or lack thereof) of the development would impact Tower 1. The upside, of course, is that a west-facing apartment may never lose its views since Tower 3 seems so unlikely.

Thanks for the tip ValB! Any insight is appreciated.

tenemental, yes it is tower 1. They say tower 3 will be built in the future, but I agree they need to sell/rent the first two towers first. Who will give them any money to build a third one in this economy?

"Northside Piers is located 4 blocks, a quick 6-7 minute walk to the Bedford Ave L train stop. In less than 3 minutes from there, you are at the 1 Avenue stop in Manhattan. If you want to get to 14 St/Union Square, it is only about a 6 minute ride from Bedford Avenue to Union Square. About a 12 or 13 minute commute to Union Square is hardly a nightmare.

116 Street is a local stop on the 1 train, B and C trains and if you are headed downtown, the nearest express stop is 7 stops away on the B and C and 3 on the 1."

WRONG on part 2. 116th and Lenox is an EXPRESS stop on the 2/3, and thus a direct shot to midtown west, and its SIGNIFICANTLY faster from that stop to any midtwon west job location than it is from Bedford L then transfering to the green, blue, or orange line. And Kalhari is HALF a block from this stop, not four blocks away. TWO and a half blocks away is the local B, C, or local 6. Still faster to my place of work midtown east on the 6 local than it would be from the Bedford L.

However, I am sure if you work in Chelsea or FiDi Wburg would be faster.

"There are some NEW restaurants and cafes popping-up along Lenox Ave, in addition to those that have already established themselves in the neighborhood:"

The Italian place you list has been in East Harlem for DECADES, it just moved. But you are smoking crack if you think that Harlem has anywhere NEAR as many restaurants and in as much variety as Williamsburg. CRACK.

simi, I don't know the buildings intimately, but in terms of neighborhood, there's a lot to like about each, as well as a lot to be aware of before making a purchase there. First, as a Williamsburg resident, I have to strongly disagree with the "clone factory" comments - if you walk within a 1-2 block radius of the Bedford stop, yes, you'll see a fair amount of hipsters, most of whom don't even live there. Beyond those boundaries is a MUCH more diverse population. My building is as diverse as any building I've lived in in NYC, and there are strong Polish, Italian, Dominican, and Puerto Rican populations in the immediate area, as well as quite a few Europeans and Argies. I would say Harlem's got a similar mix, depending on where in Harlem you are exactly. In terms of transportation, both have their ups and downs, but I would think of it more in terms of practicality to get to and from where you need to be most often (ie: downtown, Midtown, easy access to airports/trains, etc.)

jason, these are in Boston: green, blue, or orange line

jason10006: Is there something about crack in particular that causes misperceptions about restaurants?

Simi, it just occurred to me that you're talking 3 brs. Does that mean you've got kids? Cuz that would change things for me. As happy as I am at the Kalahari, I'd want to live closer to the kid's school.

alahart,

jason10006, did not want to type it out so I provided it for you. It's pretty similiar to the IND, IRT and BMT.

green is the 4, 5, & 6
blue is the a, c, & e
orange is the f, v, & d (If I forgot any I'm sorry)

I remember when the L was the LL, aka the Latino Local.

Anybody notice that 37% price cuts at Northside, btw?

simi,

If you have children would they be attending private or public school?

bjw2103, thanks for the comments, do you also find L train to manhattan during rush hour very crowded?
ValB, have a baby and thinking about another one. Honestly did not think about schools just the neighborhood and the building for our own adult selfish reasons. Do you know anything about school situation up around kalahari?

Eddie, we at St. Uyvesant called it the Love Line.

But on a rare substantive note, double letters indicated locals, and single letters expresses. After 7 years of living on the Northside of Williamsburgh, I decided never to live on a subway line that didn't have both . . . and unfortunately, the Canarsie Line is a two-track choo-choo, meaning that when anything goes bad, it goes very very bad. More unfortunately, the 2nd Ave. line will be 2-track, but at least the Lex IRT is a couple of blocks away.

simi,

As of now, the L is actually fine, even during rush hour. I've had to let at most one train pass on occasion, but it was way worse on the 4/5/6 when I lived on the UES, and just as bad on the 1/2/3 on the UWS. There is concern that if it breaks down, you're a bit stuck, as it's a one-track line, but (knock-on-wood) those days are mostly over. That said, I am a bit concerned about how the L will handle all the new residents once the waterfront is filled up. I would love to see the V extended to Grand St in WB someday, but that's literally a pipe dream at this point. If you spend a lot of time on subways during rush hour, I would be cautious. Any other scenario, I wouldn't worry as much.

Charter schools are popping-up in Harlem.....and they seem to have good leadership and results...hence, the list of those who would like to attend is very long. In addition, Columbia Univ. is creating new elementary schools in the area and is also partnering with some existing schools to provide support.

You think you had it bad? I lived at the *last stop* on the L train. ;-)

And, remember this... technically the L train went to the water back then... but the line was "shortened" even though physically nothing changed. Trivia bit... anyone remember why?

"Anybody notice that 37% price cuts at Northside, btw?"

You're right - tough to notice when you post something 25 times. It would be nice if they lowered the prices on the second Northside Piers tower too, but I think it'll be a while before that happens.

nyc10022,

You have to post the link too the 37% price cuts @ NSP.

Are you kidding? Kalahari. No contest. The train is a half block away and you can also walk to the 6 train (or take the bus). You've got NYSC around the corner and that fancy new Park on 5th a few blocks away--that should bring new shops, etc. And...the Kalahari is in MANHATTAN!!!!!

bjw2103, we were thinking the same about overcrowding of the train when all the new developments of wburg fill up in the next couple of years. How much does it cost to take a cab ( can you find one ?) to midtown?

"nyc10022, You have to post the link too the 37% price cuts @ NSP."

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20090227/FREE/902279983

"You're right - tough to notice when you post something 25 times"
Apparently wrong again.

Btw, BJW, if you get bitter enough, noone will notice the price cuts.

Actually, the walk to the 6 is not great. You have to walk under a bridge at some point, and it reeks of urine....I once sublet in Wburg and there weren't yellow cabs. You had to call a livery, and it could get nuts when the L was down in the morning.

simi, hailing down a cab in Williamsburg is getting a bit easier, but it's nothing like hailing a cab on major Manhattan avenues. However, there are a few reliable car companies that charge the same prices, so a quick call and they'll pick you up within minutes. To midtown, I'd say it's roughly 20-25, depending on your exact start/stop points.

Eddie, did toxic fumes from Jamaica Bay eat away at the last few stops? Was it a two-fare zone? Was the extension mule-drawn? Was it undone by unions? Did that guy from The Lords of Flatbush who said "I eat Avenue J" eat it?

CB123, yes Kalahari is in Manhattan but isn't the point of living in Manhattan is to be able to walk to many shops, restaurants, etc whenever you like. It seems to me that you need to use transportation from Kalahari, but of course not to the central park which is very nice.

nyc10022, I think you're a bit paranoid about people "not noticing" price cuts. If people are at all serious about buying in a building or area, I'm sure they've seen the cuts. I think they're a good thing, actually, just don't see your need to post these kinds of things every chance you get. I don't think anyone subscribes to an nyc10022 rss feed, do they?

simi, there's also the whole Columbia University area nearby, which is much more Manhattany than exactly where the Kalahari is located, and much much more than Williamsburgh, which will feel forlorn no matter how much they build.

alanhart, I agree with you , even though wburg is quite fun to walk around, some parts of it are full of empty and ugly warehouses (like around northside !) It is nowhere as elegant looking as columbia area.

So I have to agree with simi that Wburg has many more restaurants and such but with ValB that getting a taxi in that part of harlem is a MILLION times easier. So i don't know if we are helping or hurting...the decision making process...

simi, I agree with that, though you really have to pick your spots. Walk up Bedford, Berry, or Wythe between North 7th and North 10th, or between South 3rd and Metropolitan. Those are beautiful blocks that have been residential (ie: no warehouses) for a long time. North 3rd between Wythe and Berry is an example of a formerly warehousey block that is now great. But yes, if you walk around North 14th, it's a completely different feel.

I lived on N. 8th St. between Berry & Wythe, the ONLY attractive (or non-hideous, actually) block in Williamsburgh (albeit a long time ago...1984-90...but that aspect hasn't changed since then), and I lived a few blocks from the Kalahari at 117th & Morningside Avenue from 2000-2007. The specific siting of the Kalahari isn't as nice as the microneighborhood west of 8th Ave and east of Morningside Park where I lived, but for me the answer is extremely easy, unless there are major factors regarding the two buildings or units that you've bid on.

Go with the Kalahari.

> nyc10022, I think you're a bit paranoid about people "not noticing" price cuts.

Or perhaps you feel a need to whine whenever there is a stat you don't like.

Paranoid?

Come on, you can do better than that. Come up with a better insult so noone notices Williamsburg is tanking.

"just don't see your need to post these kinds of things every chance you get."

The hypocrite is complaining about one post and one reference to it.

WOW, you really don't want anyone to know, do you...

jason 10006, I am grateful for every comment posted here, thanks to all streeteasy insiders :) Decision making process is very difficult with many pros and cons for both places, but every bit of info helps as you are making the purchase of your lifetime in an uncertain time.

Yeah, I agree with Jason. I just re-read what I last wrote--and it wasn't very helpful. But I think that's because you really have a tough call on your hands, Simi--what's the best of two non-ideal situations. Personally, and it is only an opinion, so take it or leave it: I would try to sort out where you think you'd send your kids pre-school if you lived in either place. That might make matters clearer...?

simi,

You and your wife should go to each neighborhood during the day, afternoon, night and weekend. Make a list of the pros and cons of WB and Harlem during these times, than weigh the two. After gathering all raw data you and your wife should be able to decide what will be beneficial for you and your family. This process is becoming unseemingly difficult and should not be.

nyc10022, instead of cluttering up this very useful thread with this bs, let's just give it a rest, ok? Save your antagonism for another thread (though FWIW, paranoid is not an "insult").

Tell us the rules again, hall monitor hypocrite!

You are the one who starts up about "paranoid" and all your other BS, when the stat I posted was relevant (and even asked for!)

Then an entire post from you on antagonism.

YOU are clogging this up.

Go home, troll!

So why did they discontinue service on the last few stops of the Canarsie Line?

"did toxic fumes from Jamaica Bay eat away at the last few stops? Was it a two-fare zone? Was the extension mule-drawn? Was it undone by unions? Did that guy from The Lords of Flatbush who said "I eat Avenue J" eat it?"

You actually almost got it with the 2 fare.

The train ended at Rockaway Parkway stop (as it does now), but it was a FREE TRANSFER to the bus that went down RP to the water. In those days, that was HUGE... it was a one fare zone when there were NO free bus/train transfers. And, you could even get on the bus on the route with a train pass! (which was different from a bus pass). The bus waited for you inside the station...

So, technically, it was part of "train". The grey L line went dotted to the water on the subway maps.

When the city came up with metrocards and bus/train transfers, they removed the last hop from the subway maps.

I believe the original reason was that there were tracks that went all the way, but when they redid tracks waaaay back the city didn't want the elevated or street level train on RP.

As far as I know, its the only part of a subway line removed from the map.... (though I no some stops went away, like the old city hall 6 stop).

bjw2103,

A few months ago you used to argue hard now you give up with ease, what happened?

Eating Crow happened.

nyc10022,

We exposed him for the hypocrite he is.

Did you see my last post in the williasmburg thread?

Do you know where I can purchase a nice pot & pan set?

nyc10022,

You already know you are GOOD in my book. I had no idea you lived in BK back in the days. As you said you want to keep you super hero identity a secret lol.

I was just thinking: If there was a condo building like the Kalahari in the Columbia area, I would buy, sight unseen (well, not really, but you know what I mean). I was really bummed to realize that the Avalon Morningside was rental. Does anyone know if there are any plans for a condo development in the area? Or does Columbia have all the property locked up?

ValB,

Majority of "planned" condo developments in NYC are converting to luxury rental.

Yeah, because they can't sell, right? But in the Columbia area, I'd think that wouldn't be a problem....

I have heard of no condo developments in MH whatsoever, no. Maybe you would like FDB better, there are condos for sale there. Its a lot nicer than Lenox/116th and closer to Columbia.

ValB,

Yes, It would be a problem as it is a problem in The Village around NYU.

> Did you see my last post in the williasmburg thread?

Just looked... well done.

> Do you know where I can purchase a nice pot & pan set?

Broadway panhandler!

> You already know you are GOOD in my book. I had no idea you lived in BK back in the days. As you
> said you want to keep you super hero identity a secret lol.

I'm not disagreeing...

;-)

Jason, yeah, I checked out FDB. But my sense from comments here is that no one believes they're really going to happen...?

Mutombo, I see your point. Wishful thinking on my part.

nyc10022,

Don't forget we have to due Peter Luger's LOL.

Its always good when I get to rap with you.

Is there a Dallas BBQ's near Columbia U, FDB & 116?

Not sure... but there is Dinosaur just a little north of there!

And its pretty close to the original (which is a good thing).

And Rack & Soul on Bway and 109, which has better ribs IMHO and divine biscuits. Here's a decision-making trick I learned from a psychologist: toss a coin. Really. Pretend you're going to decide based on the toss. And see how you feel when it comes out as it does. If you're a little disappointed, you'll have unearthed some inner feeling.

Also == I highly recommend the Prioritizer! http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/prioritize/prioritize_101.jsp

FAbulous tool on the CNN/Money website. It's supposed to be for money, but it's good for weighing options on anything.

thanks for the link trinityparent, definitely will try it. ValB I loved your comment "what's the best of two non-ideal situations. " thats exactly how I feel. My ideal situation would be a 3br below 96st near park within my price range (impossible :)) so it is the coin toss :)

simi, you haven't told us what you like and dislike about each apartment, each building & its amenities, and each neighborhood, nor lifestyle things like how much you cook vs. eat out, want to keep a car and where you'd go with it, etc.

Eddie, you might find this amusing: http://www.forgotten-ny.com/TROLLEYS/canarsie/canarsie.html
Apparently, Canarsie was the butt of many a schlocky comic's joke, so if that's where you're from you'll find a few people on SE unsurprised. Not mutombonyc, though.

alanhart,

You big dofus.

So many people have said Wmburg is really cool, arty, hip, etc. I don't know it well but I'm kind of interested in it because it is cheaper and in some areas much quieter than in Manhattan.

I've spent two weekday afternoons walking around there (dec 2008, some other time in 2007)and it was dead as hell during the afternoon, in no way comparable to walking around in the afternoon in say any hood in manhattan where you could at least amuse yourself in all kinds of shops. It was hard to spot the coolness during an afternoon, which is to be expected I suppose, it just seemed quiet, which I kind of like actually.

No, I meant buidlings ALREADY OPEN on FDB or around it, like Soha118, the Fitzgerald, 258 Saint Nick, etc. There are plenty of sales and resales of new condos on FDB. I was not referring to future buildings.

I feel safe walking around on 116th Street. In fact, while the Kalahari was being built, I walked from the 6 train on Lex all the way past the B/C line on Manhattan Ave. several times a week when I was in grad school. Never an issue. I am a guy though. My female friends have not reported issues visiting me "up town" either. There are restaurants and services, but you need to find them. For a 8 minute ride on the 2/3 from your door you could be at 96th street--home of a new Whole Foods and plenty of dining options. I vote Harlem. Also, from the 2/3 on 116th--you are talking a 25 minute trip to 14th street. The 6 is a 5 minute walk.

aerofreaky11, a whole foods on 96 sounds good,do you know when will it be open? For wburg we we thinking about trader joe's on 14th &3rd. Some walk to northside from bedford with groceries. Ok people right now we are off to wburg to check out the place on a monday night, will keep you updated on what we find.

The Whole Foods is at 98 & Columbus, scheduled to open in August.

as another Kalahari resident, I have a different perception of the neighborhood than ValB. I do come home after 10pm by myself, by subway, and do not feel uncomfortable. This is a personal thing, I think. Also, I face the courtyard and never hear kids outdoors at night, making noise. I recommend visiting both locations at different times of day and on different days -- weekends, weekdays, after dark, etc., to see how you feel and what your personal comfort level is.

Simi...I truly don't know Harlem at night (only by biking through sometimes on weekends), but the tone of the comments on here send off alarm bells to me when it sounds like whether you feel safe or not walking around at night might be a personal thing, might be a guy thing, not too populated, etc...You're going to live there, and I wouldn't want to feel uncomfortable at all, ever really ..and I've always felt fine in NYC but have lived only in BPC, chelsea, ues, brook hts.

Harlem at night arond Kalahari is a GHOST town. There is NO one on the sttreet, 7 days a week. Why would that make ANYONE feel unsafe? you are retarded.

"A few months ago you used to argue hard now you give up with ease, what happened?"
"We exposed him for the hypocrite he is."

Well, mutombo, there is a difference between getting all riled up over a broker's loose neighborhood demarcations and people posting supposed facts that are just incorrect. By your definition, isn't it hypocritical for you to complain about people saying they live in Williamsburg when they live in Bushwick and then lump all sections of the neighborhood together? I don't think it is, but seems you do.

"You already know you are GOOD in my book. I had no idea you lived in BK back in the days. As you said you want to keep you super hero identity a secret lol."
"Don't forget we have to due Peter Luger's LOL."

Maybe you two should get a room?

Simi- if you have kids...there are no schools in wiliamsburg..stay in manhattan....much better investment...

If the area around Kalahari is a ghost town at night with no one around that would be 1) somewhat creepy to me, and many people; since some apparently don't get this: deserted streets are creepy because, if some wacko does happen to show up, its just you and him..(why this is a retarded comment is beyond me) ..2) depressing...3) boring, as in, doesn't sound like much fun to step out to have a drink or a late night snack or whatever.

It depends on your personal preference. They are very different nabes in many ways. I believe Harlem is more family friendly; parks are nearby (Central, Morningside, and Mount Morris). There is swimming and skating at the Lasker Rink. Harlem Lanes for bowling is not far nor are the Magic Johnson movie theaters. Williamsburg, on the other hand, has better dining and drinking options. In Harlem there are more churches than any other facility, to the detriment, in my opinion, of a neighborhood that needs many other services. Harlem (where the kalahari is located) is also much more convenient to midtown Manhattan and the upside as an investment, in the long term, (post recession) I believe is better than Williamsburg.

And just to irritate Jason1006, because he engaged in infantile name calling ("retarded"), I interject a subjective opinion: I flat out do not believe the statement that "For the millionth time, harlem is safer than most neighborhoods in NYC, and has been for years. "

Statistics may purport to show that, but statistics are never perfect (underreporting of certain types of crimes in certain areas, for example; types of intimidation that may not rise to the level of a reported crime). I also believe that if it were really true on a sustained basis for "years" as claimed then the perception would change, just as the general perception of crime in NYC has changed dramatically in NYC over the last many years. I wonder how many people on here really believe that Harlem is safer than say Chelsea.

the area doesn't make sense at all without a HUGE discount with respect to other areas (50%? how much i don't know, buy it has to be very significant). the issue of the drugs (the meth clinics) that some blogs talk about is real. the other day in a coffee shop w/ my young kid one of these characters played with my kid. surreal at the very least (she was really nice i have to say). also, projects are not going away any time soon. about the total lack of dinning options, according to a couple of owners the reason is that Harlem is full of churches. there's a city regulation that says that restaurants cannot get a wine permit w/in certain distance of a church. so that's not improving any time soon either.

i imagine that with the columbia expansion, if the area is cleaned up, with rows of nice restaurants, no dilapidated buildings, no chicken bones in the sidewalks, good schools ... it would be really nice. i just don't see that happening within the next 20 years or so. right now is livable and has "good bones".

And I have noticed on here that when apartments in Harlem area come up that posters frequently cite neighborhood ambience issue and anecdotes that are either explicitly or indirectly crime related. I'm not saying Harlem is super-dangerous, but it seems many think it is not the safest area in NYC.

"I'm not saying Harlem is super-dangerous"

exactly. the issue is, unless you can get way much more space for the same price, why going for an already non ideal environment? maybe harlem looks the way the entire city will look in the recession gets really ugly. not necessarily dangerous but not easy on the eyes either.

About schools in Williamsburg - I don't have children, but have heard mostly good things about the schools here. PS 17 is usually considered the top school on the northside, and PS 132 is supposedly right there as well. ap2492 has posted concerns about the schools here before though, so he/she may know something I don't. If you're concerned, I would visit the schools to find out more firsthand, or at least google them for a little more info.