If I have to see one more open kitchen...

Sounds charming! Care to post a link so we can really give that brilliant "developer" a grilling on his window wall?

I'm with ya, ACH. Hate, hate, HATE open kitchens. I mean, who wants to see prep detritus while sitting at the dining room table eating? Or entertaining in the living room?

Give me a nice pre-war enclosed kitchen over an open monstrosity any day.

http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/94/6443694.gif

the listing is
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/446413-condo-303-west-149th-street-central-harlem-new-york
but of course they do not show that wall of kitchen cabinets. Only the model unit has pics up...
I can't begin to explain it....;-)

Agreed, open kitchens suck if you actually cook. At least there is counter space.
So you're looking at W. 149th, huh? We don't want to go that high since we want access to both the 2 and 3. Too many times in the past year they were running buses instead of the 3 train.

Those layouts are designed by people who would never (or, will never) live there. Layout is more important than square footage, in my opinion. My apt is actually smaller than that (if it's really 600 sq), but mine is WAY more livable. I could never make that crappy layout work.

I cook, and I prefer an open kitchen (which I have, and I created) in a smallish apartment -- it makes the living room look and feel much bigger, lets natural light into the kitchen, lets you communicate with your guests (who will otherwise come into your enclosed kitchen), and eliminates the confining feeling of being in a galley kitchen while preparing meals. I clean as I cook, so there's really very little unsightly mess to look at it while eating. I have good mechanical ventilation, so there's no smoke or grease. The shame in this city is that "ductless" vents are legal -- they're just noisemakers.

My guess is that most people who dislike open kitchens do not, in fact, really cook (i.e. they're in the kitchen for half an hour or more at a time).

Of course, it might be preferable to have a large, and large-windowed, enclosed kitchen if you live in a Classic Six or similar, but that's not generally what's being offered in post-war buildings, let alone new development.

The ideal for us would be a large eat-in kitchen adjacent to a family room (pocket doors separating the two), formal living room, dining room.

... and a door directly from the kitchen to a 10,000 sf terrace with water views and direct access from that to the beach.

What does hit the right balance, in some new developments and renovations, is the half-open kitchen -- a traditional galley in the back half, and an open kitchen near the entrance to the room. That usually gives the opportunity to hide most mess ... although there's a matter of which (dining table or couch) gets more of a peek.

And of course there's the horrible suburban one-foot vertical extension up from the open counter, with its own little counter atop. That really hides things from seated guests, and allows communication, light, and continuity at ceiling level. It's just somehow icky, IMO.

It's interesting to see how expectations have evolved, and how builders try to keep up. E.g. http://www.slcearch.com/residential/the-laureate/ (lower-floor plan is 7th picture.)

There they're going to compromise by providing large-for-NY kitchens, but not open to living rooms. In most of the larger apartments, semi-open to dining rooms. In the one-bedroom G line, kitchen isn't really visible from living room, but it is open to front hall. (I guess so guests can admire your spiffy appliances as they pass by.)

There are pros & cons to both layouts, I'd say, & much depends on lifestyle & personal taste. Either way, neatness & cleaning as you go are definite pluses. I often think of the restaurant experience & you get lots of options when you think how different restaurant kitchens & serving scenarios are.

Another thing that's important to note is that pre-war "eat-in kitchens" were not really intended to be eat-in, except maybe for some breakfasts. The tenant was out in the LR or DR with his and her guests pretty much continuously. I assume most of us don't have that arrangement, even in larger apartments. That means your guests will find you in the kitchen and annoy you and get in your way, or stand just outside of hearing distance and repeatedly try to talk to you, so you'll have to repeatedly stop what you're doing. I hate people.

NWT, that one has an extraordinary spitting balcony!

In the conventional kitchen you often ARE missing the party which is going on in the other room. Again, pros & cons ......

NWT: you are good at digging up floorplans! Much better than the 72nd & Bway building that is almost complete - do you have flrplans for that too?

Thanks! I only found that because SLCE does all that developer's buildings.

For 72nd all I've turned up is for the retail, at www.72andbway.com. I walk by every day, so have to look at the permits and see who're the architects. The narrow bays don't bode well. Looks as if those corner apartments will have open kitchens.

@mmarquez110: well, right now I am just looking what is out there, price range etc.while working on that darn downpayment.
And really would prefer to stay west of Jackie Robinson Park, bc of that big hill of 145th St on my bicycle!! ;-)
And well, in the pricerange that I am looking I would be having a hard time finding anything below 145th anyway, which I know and it's okay....

@alanhart: I do agree with the argument of guests wanting to talk to you while you cook, so having something half open would be a good compromise, for sure...
I just kind of need some separation, since I do not always clean up right away (hey, what can I say...)

alanhart, right, "Can I do anything? How can I help?" "By getting TF out from underfoot."

Not that I've cooked for anybody in five years....

I am cooking constantly and thus love the open kitchen, especially within my reasonably small apartment. In fact, I'm not sure why anyone who cooks would want to be isolated--especially if it is in a galley kitchen.

I am curious, however, to see how long this trend will last and if everyone in ten years will be converting their open kitchens to closed spaces. I doubt I would do it for myself, but all trends seem to have a certain ebb and flow. And it would hardly surprise me if I had to close up my kitchen before trying to sell the place.

I do cook and I love open kitchens. Most people, guests and family alike, congregate in the kitchen anyway. In an apartment as small as my NYC apartment will be, it is the only thing that makes sense. Why should the cook be ostracized from the party?

10023 and NWT, rental building i think.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/property/2071-broadway-new_york

I know, but no floorplans yet.

Thanks, AR. Yes, rental, and no plans on Handel's projects page.

btw, has anyone firmly confirmed or denied the Trader Joe's rumor for that building?

Never mind -- I just found a TJ denial at http://www.foodandthings.com/2009/09/new-trader-joes-upper-west-side-store-in-doubt/

My neighbor put IN an open kitchen so she could watch the kids while cooking. So, it depends on your lifestyle.

{Manhattan real estate agent.}

When I was designing the open kitchen, I considered putting hospital tracks in the ceiling to support very thin sheer-type curtains -- maybe suspended so that they only block out a couple of feet above the counter -- that can be pulled across after dinner is ready, for those extreme cases. And machine washable, no ironing would have been a must. But I got lazy.

Before I had kids, I loved our closed kitchen – you can entertain without worrying about the mess throughout the night. Now that I have kids, I hate that I can’t watch them from the kitchen. To each his own.

I like an open kitchen, but I think what the OP was complaining about is the lack of anywhere to put a couch & tv (so you can look straight ahead). That's a valid complaint... I'm very familiar with that, because I've lived in a few very small places over the years, and the biggest issue is usually how to configure the "living room" (when that room is really the living/dining/kitchen area).

I hear your closed kitchen pain...but, the developer is not demanding a king's ransom.
you can get what you want for more money.
oh the pain...oh the pain...

I think the concern about an "open kitchen" in this case is not that it's an open kitchen as I'd conceive of one. Rather, this is a counter, sink, and stove along one wall in the living room. I've seen that, and it's awful. That it's the wall that contains the one window in the room is even worse.

The open kitchens I've seen are nice -- the same as closed kitchens, but with a wall taken down partially or completely and replaced with an island. Those I don't mind at all -- they're kind of nice. But "refrigerator in the living room" isn't the same thing at all.

I finally looked at the floorplan that ACH was complaining about & it is a tiny space; perhaps the developer didn't have a choice as to where to put that sink & the only other option might have been to scrunch everything down in one corner.

sometimes a closed kitchen is nice if you want to talk discretely about your guests...

ACH - That hill at 155th is massive, you would think they would mention it on a map or something. I remember the first time we encountered it, we were just walking from harlem up washington heights on a 90degree day, at unawares, when suddenly we saw that 500 step staircase.

Have you looked at 161 W 133rd st? They are also sold by Todd Stevens and have been on the market a very long time. I'm sure you could get a good discount. Although they do have open kitchens.

Let's face it, the biggest reason you are seeing all these open kitchens in new construction is because the living rooms are so tiny it's the only way they look like living rooms (although I admit that does not explain why they are also doing it in lofts, etc. which have living room which are plenty big enough).

You know that "wine merchant" thread? I wonder if there's another one about fish in Manhattan, because there has to be a big drop off in people cooking fish (especially in certain ways) with open kitchens.

But I admit that I personally think if you're not in a loft, open kitchens are unpalatable to me unless you've got some very creative ways for closing them off when you want to.

"Before I had kids, I loved our closed kitchen %u2013 you can entertain without worrying about the mess throughout the night. Now that I have kids, I hate that I can%u2019t watch them from the kitchen. To each his own."

What's with this obsession with being able to watch the children every second you're in the kitchen? Believe it or not, generations of children went unsupervised while Mom was busy in the kitchen -- often for HOURS -- back in the days when meals were actually cooked in ovens and on stoves, not just microwaved.

"The open kitchens I've seen are nice -- the same as closed kitchens, but with a wall taken down partially or completely and replaced with an island. Those I don't mind at all -- they're kind of nice. But "refrigerator in the living room" isn't the same thing at all."

I"m in the anti-open kitchen camp. And while I DO cook, I also clean up as I go, so "mess" isn't an issue.

What IS an issue for me is aesthetics. I *live* in my "living room". And I don't care how attractive the high-end appliances are ... having the refrigerator and kitchen sink in my line of vision while I'm "living" in my "living room" is just too ghetto for me.

My heart sinks every time I see or hear of how yet ANOTHER Classic Six has been "reconfigured" with a damn open kitchen. My biggest fear is that by the time I'll actually be able to afford my dream Classic Six on Fifth or Park, there will be no more actual Classic Sixes!

NYCMatt: back then there were generally a troop of older siblings watching them and/or the mom had the youngest strapped to her back while cooking (my aunt did this). Also, it's not necessarily about safety as my biggest concern these days is the mess my kids can make while not under my watchful eye. Ain't worth it (to me) to slave over dinner AND then have to clean up the living room/bedrooms afterwards.

We're talking about two different kinds of open kitchens. One is essentially where one wall of the living space is the kitchen with no counter to break the space. Those layouts can be really hard to decorate. The other is where the kitchen is essentially U-shaped, with one counter and possibly a bit of wall separating it from the living room. This is much easier to decorate and allows the cook a view of the living space. I prefer the latter to a totally closed off kitchen, but it's because I'm looking at small apartments. Often, it's the only way to get the counter space you need without feeling like you're working inside a closet. For a large apartment, I might have a different opinion.

The open kitchen trend in NYC actually dates to the 1961 zoning resolution that mandated that all building lots have 30' deep rear yards. This meant the developer had much less lot area to play with and had to squeeze his building onto 70% of the lot (for a 100' deep lot, which is fairly typical). The open kitchen was a compromise that the code gave to developers becuase, without the ability to spread the building out over more of the lot, you could no longer have windows in every room, and so kitchens and bathrooms were windowless and mechanically ventilated from then on in many new buildings.
All that being said I'll say that I've always hated the open kitchen if it's open to the main living space in your apt. I think it works if you're lucky enough to have a separate dining room or family room that the kitchen can be attached to.

Alan I cook and have an eat in kitchen - not huge but a separate room with a window - I love it. And I have a 3 yo- I don't watch her - she's good and can do what she wishes while I cook. I don't need to oversee her. I actually put her in another room by herself to watch tv and play

I've known some 3YOs in my time ... the innocence thing is all an act ... she's undoubtedly plotting something while you're in the other room -- a world takeover or spill or other vandalism or geosociopolitical engineering agenda implementation or meltdown. Keep an eye on her.

Any new condos with traditional kitchens in the 1 bedroom size?

I live in a pre-war with an EIK and I farrrrrrrrrr prefer it to an open kitchen layout. I don't want my kitchen in the same space as my living area, its just unsightly IMHO. I don't need odors from cooking wafting into my living room. And also, it creates privacy in that it is a separate room. Many times my husband is watching TV or on the phone and I can simply go into the kitchen to eat or have quiet space.

I agree and want to find that too in a new building.

The Laureate's one-bedrooms have a separate kitchen: http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/0/19774000.gif

Not visible from most of the LR/DR, but it's right inside the front door. 8'x10' seems too big for a one-bedroom, but it's not big enough for a table and chairs.

I hate closed galley-style kitchens. When you're entertaining, you're off in one room while your guests and family are enjoying themselves in another. And regardless of which style you have, guests and family always seem to congregate in the kitchen anyway. Personally, I enjoy hanging out in the same vicinity as my guests and family, although I could see if you were very anti-social you'd prefer being off alone by yourself when you cook. But then why have people over to begin with?

The closed galley-style kitchens make sense if you have a personal chef, a clean up crew, and a huge apartment.

Just because it's closed doesn't mean it's a "galley".

And you could always prepare the meal BEFORE your guests arrive.

i much prefer an open kitchen, but i am a "clean as you go" cook--those who shit all over their kitchen in the process of putting together a meal might not be so happy looking at that while eating

isle of lucy said it better

i think it depends on your preference, but closed or open, the most offensive kitchens imo are in a back windowless corner of the apartment, leaving cooking smells and heat with nowhere to go but into the living space. which is fine for casual informal people (like my family), but seeing those in expensive apartments purchased by grown ups is really weird. you have to assume all their fancy dinner parties are catered.

"Just because it's closed doesn't mean it's a "galley"."

NYCMatt.....make that "a kitchen closed off from the rest of friends and family." Galley kitchens are generally closed off, but there are other types of kitchens that are also closed off. I used "galley" as a euphemism, which indeed, it is.

"And you could always prepare the meal BEFORE your guests arrive."

That leaves dish prepping, dishing out, wrapping up, accepting food gifts from guests, all while talking with sister about crazy Uncle Albert, and neighbor about board members who should be ejected, etc. etc. No thanks. You can have your galley....um....kitchen closed off from the rest of friends and family, and I'll have my open kitchen. Sorry, can't chat now, I'm prepping dinner in a different wing.

A "kitchen" is a separate room that you cook in. Otherwise it is a "cooking area".

I like them. however the one in the living room doesn't sound correct either it was a dump or it was not a living room? the only open kitchens and contemporary loft style living I have seen the kitchen is set back with a beautiful island. I am a huge cook that loves to entertain and would love an open kitchen in a great space.

>What IS an issue for me is aesthetics. I *live* in my "living room". And I don't care how attractive the high-end appliances are ... having the refrigerator and kitchen sink in my line of vision while I'm "living" in my "living room" is just too ghetto for me.

What neighborhood do you live in?