Sutton Place Five

I vote for 5 (4 + .5 + .5) though that might be read as a three-bedroom even more than 5.5 would.

NWT, that had been my fear -- it could be converted, but one really wouldn't; out system has a place to call it a 5/2/2 but I don't know if that even reads on some of the pick-up sites.

OTOH, I don't want someone seeing 5.5 and expecting 1700 sf.

ali

^our not out

Sounds like 4 rooms to me. Since when is an alcove a room? And if a foyer is a room, then classic 6s are classic 7s. Or maybe they are 10s -- why not count the bathrooms too, and the MBR closet?

Very nice apartment. Call it a 'Junior Five' LOL

sorry, "Junior Three" for almost a three bedroom

If the alcove or foyer is big enough and sufficiently distinct from a "real" room, then it's legit and standard practice to call it a half room. Even then, it's the broker's call. E.g., in my building the same apartment has been called 4 and 4.5, depending on how the broker saw the foyer, or maybe how closely the broker adhered to the REBNY(?) standard.

You could call it 4.5 and leave the extra half-room to be discovered as a pleasant surprise.

I vote for 4.5, but maybe NWT's math could work.

Ali: Definitely a CNV3. In East Side post-war parlance, that seems to be standard label for two real BRs plus a windowed dining area. It's legit in this case, because your kitchen has a window and access from both sides, and your dining alcove has a nice big corner window; at 11'6"*9'0", it's even decent-sized.

The room count is a little trickier. Most brokers would count the alcove as a room and call it 5.5, but they probably skipped the Business Ethics class that you aced.

Take a classic 6, remove half a dining room and a maid's room. What are you left with? I'd call it a 5.

Obviously, you can't put the link up yourself lest you be called a shill, but so as to save everyone else the effort:

http://www.dgneary.com/BrokerWebsite3/Code/sales_detail.asp?index=2

Err, that didn't work. How's about this:

http://public.olr.com/details.aspx?id=762931

I'd call it a 4.5.

After seeing the floorplan, I'd call it a 5. Earlier, sans floorplan, I'd envisioned a windowless dining alcove, and the foyer as being bigger, so it equals out. 5.

Its a post vs pre war conundrum. If pre and called a 5 I would expect something a little more substantial in the way of DR. I have no clue what constitutes a 5 in post war but my bet is with w81 and buyers will be expecting a cnv 3. The kitchen is a kitchenette and calling the area where they saved on cabinets a dining room seems a stretch at best. 5.5 is misleading IMO.

ali, i have no problems with the five. even calling the dining room a full room. but that living room/foyer combo is worth nothing more than a one, if that. given the doors sprouting tentacles off the foyer, it seems fairly useless as a space, and the living room is relatively small for a two bedroom so the dining room is kind of needed. so unless you have high ceilings, etc., to make the space seem grander, calling this a 5.5 will only lead to disappointment in your potential buyers, i'd think.

ali -- ask se to kill this thread. not prudent to have this listing discussed on a public forum. i looked on your firm's site -- it looks like a five -- good luck.

after seeing the floorplan, I think calling it a 4.5 seems accurate and a small 5 seems acceptable. The dining alcove could count as a room if it can be closed off. The foyer is a foyer, not a room.

Going with consensus on 5 (though thanks West 81st for backing me up on the high side).

thanks all for playing!

ManhattanFox, I hear you about this thread -- but our firm has learned that our listings are going to be "reviewed" on streeteasy no matter what, so I'd at least like the courtesy to be in the conversation.

We'll see how I feel in four weeks, though (*grin*).

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

if i were selling -- there is a large difference between public chatter and a public discussion started by my own broker...

If you were selling, MF, you might want a Harvard-educated broker who had sense to be in the public discussion tied to the right SEO keywords for your property ...

ali r.

Ali goes nuclear, drops the H-bomb. That was rapid escalation.

MFox,
My clients fall into two basic categories -- Hollywood and tech-y. The Hollywood ones crave privacy, and never get any social media marketing whatsoever. The tech-y ones (who sometimes find me through referrals from past clients but often find me through Streeteasy) gets regular email updates about what social media marketing I'm doing.

So in other words, the seller client already knows about this thread. Similarly, when I work with buyer clients, they tell me if they are posting making inquiries about a certain neighborhood or building. I can see your point that you don't like this kind of marketing/information gathering technique; I disagree with that point, but it's valid.

What I find surprising (and I think what you just apologized for) is the idea that I am somehow "going rogue." I get hired to work for someone; I don't just fly off on my own. I am working in my client's interests as we as a team determine them. That's what agency is.

I am sorry that there are so many lousy real estate agents/brokers out there that I even have to make the point.

But just because I'm selling something doesn't mean I don't value your input. I DO, or I wouldn't be asking for it. Thanks for both it and the apology.

ali

We have a signed contract; thanks everybody for your help.

This listing is in Rue McLanahan's bldg, and I'm so sorry I didn't manage to go all raving fan on her before she died.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Quick work! I just noticed that the baths and those steel kitchen cabinets with the chrome edge are in perfect shape. Give the buyer a nudge not to wreck them.

Congrats Ali. That's a great apartment at a reasonable price...and very livable "as is" from what I could see although I would update the baths...retro has breaking points. Sales happen in this economy when something, from a brand of peanut butter to a Sutton Place apartment, represents good value.

Ooh yeah metal kitchens. I love the st Charles kitchens at the beresford and neighhbor.

Update:

SOLD AND CLOSED!

The list of $899K produced multiple bids. A couple were lowballs that never received serious consideration, and one came from candidates who never would have passed a historically tough board. (Sample dialogue: "Tell the board my mother's in her 80s and I'll inherit all her money, so we'll be in an even better financial position in a few years.")

$870K was accepted from buyers who intend to do a complete gut reno. My guess on the reno cost is $150K, but I think it's possible that the buyers will do a nicer job than I would, and spend somewhere in the $2s.

Note that the comparable apartment #10B, four floors up, had sold at $870K, so it was tough to get buyers to crack that ceiling.

If you're tracking prices over time, the final closed price is 13% off the "peak" pricing of $1mm, from an appraisal the sellers had done a couple of years earlier.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Good job Ali - looks like you convinced the sellers to ask a reasonable price, and the market responded.

One question - why is the board in a building like this (post war, not particularly distinguished or expensive apartments) so "tough"? And, in your opinion, has it hurt sales in this building?

Congratulations Ali! Thank you for the update and market analysis.

That neighborhood seems to offer excellent relative value, with the minor problem that I don't know anyone who wants to live there.

Could you write an email to the buyers letting them know that original metal kitch cabs are much desired, and they can get a tax writeoff if they donate to Build it Green?

Congrats Ali! Sounds like you did a bang-up job. Hilarious sample dialogue.

West81st - Is it possible that you "don't know anyone who wants to live there" because you live and work as a broker basically on the Upper West Side? Sort of a pre-selected sample for you, no?

ph41, this was my first Sutton-area deal, and I don't know why the Sutton Manor board (and for that matter, other boards in the area that I heard about anecdotally) are so strict, just that they are. Frankly I was terrified. I've never had a board turndown (knock wood) and I wanted to keep my perfect record, so four of us -- three people from my firm and one from the buyers' (CitiHabitats) went over the application with fine-toothed combs.

Are the high standards a drag on prices? Sure. The listing we sold has three exposures, two of which are good, and a generous floorplan, and it went at less than $650 a square foot. Even after a gold-plated renovation, you'd be looking at, what, $900 a square foot for a full-service building with a roofdeck? That's cheap compared to many parts of Manhattan.

On the other hand, making one's building into a fortress certainly looks smart in an economy like this one.

and 10023, good call. I'll drop their agent a note.

ali

West 81st - re: Sutton area, unless you are insisting on being near Central Park because you have small children, Sutton area works very well. I don't know the public school options in that general area but many of the best private schools in the city are on the Upper East Side (easy getting up there from Sutton). Shopping, theater, transportation are very good. And if someone travels a lot, easy in-out to airports.

I agree that the area's apartments are generally underpriced (have thought so for years - leaving out the new condos), and a very good value. There is even a pre-war CONDO in the area - hard to believe, right?

And of course, NO ONE wants to live in River House, right?

ph41: Agreed. Sorry it came across as a swipe at the neighborhood.

West 81st - apology accepted. But another little odd fact - Donald Trump Jr. also saw good value in the area. Sold his place(s) in Dad's buildings, and bought two adjacent COOP apartments in the Sutton area, obviously destined to be combined for his own personal use.

ph41: I think he made a good trade there. I doubt he'll start a trend of UWSers crossing over to Midtown East. Riverside Boulevard isn't exactly the San Remo.

As for River House, I haven't been inside since the 70s It was beautiful then. I don't know whether it deserves the snarky press it has received recently, e.g.: http://www.observer.com/2010/real-estate/has-been

West81 - Agreed, but then again, MOST of the UWS isn't the San Remo (and he also sold in the Park Avenue building).

ph41
about 2 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse West 81st - re: Sutton area, unless you are insisting on being near Central Park because you have small children, Sutton area works very well. I don't know the public school options in that general area but many of the best private schools in the city are on the Upper East Side (easy getting up there from Sutton). Shopping, theater, transportation are very good. And if someone travels a lot, easy in-out to airports.

I agree that the area's apartments are generally underpriced (have thought so for years - leaving out the new condos), and a very good value. There is even a pre-war CONDO in the area - hard to believe, right?

And of course, NO ONE wants to live in River House, right?

http://insideschools.org/index12.php?fs=40

http://www.250e57.com/250E57_Retail.pdf

ali, how was your experience with the citi broker?

I was in River House in the 90s when I was a journalist and interviewed someone who lived there. Unbelievable. I'd love to go back and see how I feel today, but I believe I'd take it over the Dakota. (In, you know, my fantasy land where I had the choice).

ali