Roughly one of every 250 retired public workers in New York is collecting a six-figure pension, and that group is expected to grow rapidly in coming years, based on the number of highly paid people in the pipeline.

Some will receive the big pensions for decades. Thirteen New York City police officers recently retired at age 40 with pensions above $100,000 a year; nine did so in their 30s. The plan’s public information officer said that the very young retirees had qualified for special disability pensions, which are 50 percent larger than ordinary police pensions

Not all the people getting six-figure pensions are former police and firefighters from cities with liberal overtime and disability policies. Hundreds more worked at hospitals, power utilities, port authorities and other “public benefit corporations” — hybrid entities that compete with the private sector and pay their officials accordingly, but allow them, at the same time, to participate in the state pension fund.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/business/economy/21pension.html

isn't this the type of thing that did greece in?

so you have a problem giving a 30 year old disabled person who risked their life to protect you a pension, you think this person wanted to get hurt?

Can't blame the participants for following the agreement. Need to blame the system, politicians who agreed to Union's demands so he/she can score the votes. This country is so far along this path, little to no chance to turn around. Think about the magnitude of protestors if NY/US decides to cut union benefits.

Politicians are just incapable of creating and following a responsible budget. All they care about is getting re-elected and kicking the can down the road or another four years.

There comes a point where if politicians have made promises our economy and its taxpayers cannot keep, such "promises" have to be adjusted.

Again, we have become a society that wants all of the upside and simply ignore or push all of the downside on others - in this case, the general tax paying public. All of this is so politicians can get reelected, as Riversider stated.

It is time for our country to grow up and accept responsibility for our actions - and in this case, make changes to "promises" that were fraudulently made as our economy/tax base cannot support such liabilities.

This can very definitely be turned around. In the late 70s and early 90s, the unions agreed to restructurings. The problem is the politicians gave everything back as soon as the economy improved. Create a new tier for new employees, and switch current employees to defined contribution plans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/world/europe/23europe.html?ref=business

PARIS — Across Western Europe, the “lifestyle superpower,” the assumptions and gains of a lifetime are suddenly in doubt. The deficit crisis that threatens the euro has also undermined the sustainability of the European standard of social welfare, built by left-leaning governments since the end of World War II.

With low growth, low birthrates and longer life expectancies, Europe can no longer afford its comfortable lifestyle, at least not without a period of austerity and significant changes. The countries are trying to reassure investors by cutting salaries, raising legal retirement ages, increasing working hours and reducing health benefits and pensions.

“We’re now in rescue mode,” said Carl Bildt, the Swedish foreign minister and a former prime minister. “But we need to transition to the reform mode very soon. The ‘reform deficit’ is the real problem,” he said, pointing to the need for structural change.

Lower tax states....Florida, Texas, Nevada...

I for ONCE agree 100% with Riversider. I am from CA and now live in NYC...two places where pensions are OUT OF CONTROL...San Diego ALREADY went "bankrupt" over the issue (in the way cities legally can restructure debt in CA) and LA may have to within a year. This is truly unsustainable - having to cut ALL services to pay for pensions that are more than the average person makes working full time. Absurd. In California, its now over 15,000 people who make over $100k per year post-retirment, and that number will doouble in the next five years.

>And the list of states with the strongest balance sheets or best budgets when factoring in pension, etc. liabilities?

at http://www.pgpf.org you can find the details of each state. problem is that health care "promises" are not counted by most. in nyc for example, from this year on those cost more than the pension check per se.

on a positive note, those same health care benefits are not protected by law, so they can be cut instead of having to declare bankruptcy. also, in ny and nyc public pensions could be taxed more heavily in a legal way (an implicit adjustment to reality outside of bankruptcy that can be very disruptive for needed services).

ar, are you oblivious to what is going on in Europe? The welfare state model does not work. Early retirements, excessive taxpayer-funded pensions, free health care for all, etc, are massive burdens that cannot be sustained. America works well when it stays away from those models and sticks with ones that reward production and work, but we have a socialist-leaning president now and that worries me.

look at the cost of retiring in the city, look at the lifelong hard work these people do, and then picture yourself in their shoes. does $100k seem like too much? my mother and grandfather both retired on civil service pensions. my grandfather is 93 and was a NYC cop for 35 years without ever missing a day. he has five children and many grandchildren and pays property tax, cost of living, running a home and everthing else. why don't you come over sometime and tell him he doesn't deserve it. i'd like to see you try motherf*cker.

here's a novel idea, how about they try closing off all the thousands of endless tax loopholes for the rich. THEN we could make some real money for the budget and not have to resort to targeting civil servants and their innocent families. for godssake!

"actuallly, it was working for decades."

Obviously it wasn't. Even during the time you say it was "working", Europe had higher unemployment and slower economic growth. All the while spending more than it could and putting off the inevitable with borrowing. This is where Obama and the far-left politicians want to take America, and thankfully the electorate is pushing back.

glamma- taxpayers can't afford open-ended lifetime benefits. With defined contribution plans, government can now exactly how much it will cost, workers can contribute to their own benefit, and when someone stops working, he or she will know exactly how much they have to fund their retirement.
What tax loopholes are you talking about? Without specifics, that is a worthless comment. You can close every tax loophole, and you still wouldn't come close to covering the costs of these excessive pension benefits.

"i''d like to see you try motherf*cker"

How about tell me why I didn't deserve a nice pension? I worked for the last 12 years and still have 33 years ahead of me. Why do I have to work 10 years more then your grandfather to get a pension of 24k or 50k of future dollars (in 33 years)?

Try motherf*cker.

Public sector on average makes 10k more then the private in NYC.

"i''d like to see you try motherf*cker"

My grandfather worked until 75, and he's getting what 1200/mo? That's 20 years more of hard work then your grandfather, and he's a WW2 veteran. Is that fair?

@alanhard

Since when you can take my rights away at your whim? My rights are defined by my votes, what would happened if majority of NY state votes against increasing any tax to cover the out of control benefits? And my vote is - NO.

ar- pure nonsense. Too high tax burdens and incentives not based on working are the major problems. Socialized health care is another wrongheaded plan. You love straw man arguments, but they are obviously incorrect. No one said anything about taking healthcare away from the elderly. The issue is how to best provide it, and tax and spend, government-controlled health care is not it.

ah- do you really think union workers are better off? Maybe the lazy, incompetent ones are, because they are protected by the union while the smart, hard-working members have to pick up the slack while getting the same pay and benefits as the others. No meritocracy there. The unions have gamed the political system, that is how they get to suck taxpayers dry.

ar- look what the private sector unions have done to the U.S. auto industry. Look at Tavern on the Green- killed by unions. At least with the private sector, management and the unions negotiate based on each one's interests, and the money at stake is the private company's and not taxpayers (usually). That is not always so with municipal unions. Even FDR had concerns about municipal unions.

"No one wants to give up what they see as rightfully theirs. We as a society can no longer afford to make good on what we have promised?"

Corrupt politicians promised it.

> Can't blame the participants for following the agreement

Were they?

"Despite a pension investigation by the New York attorney general, an audit concluding that some police officers in the city broke overtime rules to increase their payouts and the mayor’s statements that future pensions should be based on regular pay, not overtime, these practices persist in Yonkers. "

AR, great strawman.... last resort of someone without a decent argument.

It used to be that public sector jobs paid less than private sector jobs, but that was offset by higher pensions for the public sector. Now, the public sector earns on average, more than a private sector worker, plus gets better benefits and gets still gets a better pension. Why not move the private sector to a defined contribution plan like the rest of us.
As for firemen, I think they can be excepted from having to work to 65 given the nature of their job, but let's not include overtime ibn the pension calculation.

Oops, make that why not move the "public" sector to a defined contribution plan. The Mets win two in a row and I get flustered. Yeah I know, come October, they'll be playing golf.

"I for ONCE agree 100% with Riversider. I am from CA and now live in NYC...two places where pensions are OUT OF CONTROL...San Diego ALREADY went "bankrupt" over the issue (in the way cities legally can restructure debt in CA) and LA may have to within a year. This is truly unsustainable - having to cut ALL services to pay for pensions that are more than the average person makes working full time. Absurd. In California, its now over 15,000 people who make over $100k per year post-retirment, and that number will doouble in the next five years."

Look, it's a case of "pay me now" or "pay me later".

Part of the social contract with public service employees is that in exchange for their dismal salaries and limited career growth (and in the case of cops and firefighters, dangerous and life-threatening jobs), the eventual payoff is an early retirement with a generous pension.

How else could we possibly attract men and women into jobs with horrendous schedules (shift work, night shifts, weekends, and holidays), the daily hazard of losing your life in the line of duty, little or no chance of making a lateral move out of your industry into another industry after 5, 10, 15, or even 20 years if you find you really didn't like the job -- all for an average base pay of $37,500 (for a firefighter) or $47,000 (for a cop)?

Everybody winces at these anecdotal stories about cops retiring with six-figure pensions ("Thirteen New York City police officers recently retired at age 40 with pensions above $100,000 a year; nine did so in their 30s."), but given the total number of police retirees (to date, 43,000), that's barely a drop in the bucket. The vast majority of retired cops average about 50% of their highest rate of pay during their retirement, putting the average annual NYPD retirement benefit at about $35,000/year.

And do you know what those 13 police officers had to do in order to get a six-figure retirement package? More work -- more DANGEROUS work -- than most people cram into two or even THREE careers. Those cops had to either bust their asses making promotion after promotion over the course of their NYPD careers (and believe me, NYPD promotions don't come easy -- they're not an automatic reward, handed out like party favors for perfect attendance the way banks hand out vice president titles). And even promotions to detective or elite divisions don't guarantee a six-figure pension; most likely these men spent 20 years of their lives not only achieving promotions, but working MASSIVE overtime in order to do it: double shifts ... triple shifts ... overnights ... every weekend ... every holiday ... sacrificing their personal lives, not to mention their health and safety, for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

And now they've earned it.

It's a pot of gold ANY of us could have claimed after 20 years, had we made the same choices and sacrifices they made. But whether anyone feels they "deserve" it or whether we can "afford" it is irrelevant; they did the work, they put in the time, and it is money that we owe them.

"Public sector on average makes 10k more then the private in NYC." Then why on earth are you not working in public sector?

For what it's worth my grandfather was also a WW2 vet and started working at the age of oh I don't know NINE. He did many things before joining the force. His pension is like 42k by the way.

Look I work on wall st and already seriously doubt my ability to retire in this country let alone this city, and that's just the way it is. The system is broken for sure, but it sure ain't in the favor of the lower and working classes.

Lots of people work hard. That doesn't mean they should get to retire in their 50s with indeterminate lifetime pensions paid for by someone else.

Matt's social contract needs to change. Contracts expire and get renegotiated. Workers can't get paid if the system goes broke. Besides Life Spans are way longer than they used to be. It's not about what people deserve it's what people deserve in the context of what the system can afford. This is how any budget works. A business, a coop, a non-profit. Nobody can keep spending more than they take in. Even France knows this(Is Europe about to give up its claim to life style capital of the world?)

Expectations are growing that France is set to remove the right to retire at 60, as it embarks on a contentious reform of its debt-laden pension system and brings public finances back into line.

Christian Estrosi, industry minister, said on Sunday the government was “leaning towards an increase in the [retirement] age” in its talks with unions and employers’ federations, despite denials from cabinet ministers over the weekend of a decision being taken.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/751a63d4-66a5-11df-aeb1-00144feab49a.html

aboutready

'actuallly, it was working for decades.'

and i believe things went swimmingly at Madoff Securities for quite a while too. That's how ponzi schemes work.

"and i do wonder how many fewer police and firemen would have signed up without the early retirement promises."

They signed up with significantly less pay. The pension stuff came because pay was low.

But to get the higher pay and then benefits based on low pay... thats way more than they signed up.

How about we give them the pension they signed up for at the wages they signed up for adjusted for inflation? That would be fair, no?

> i think it's a but for situation, not a strawman argument (which, btw, is a term you use way too
> often

Nah, strawmen arguments are used way too often.
I never said anything like that

Printer, this is only an issue for people who pay taxes.

The contract with unions isn't so much for the hard work unions do in fact provide(i.e police, firefighters, etc) but it can also have a great deal to do with votes politicians can extract from them in return for the benefits.

""Public sector on average makes 10k more then the private in NYC."

Really? Because when I compare apples to apples, the private sector makes more. Compare govt. lawyers to private lawyers. Compare private doctores to govt. doctors. Compare accountants. Compare electricians and plumbers. When you come up with BS data that govt. workers make more, your not comparing apples to apples.

Most public workers deserve decent pensions since they work much harder than everyone else. When your sitting at your desk on Wall St. public workers are in the subway with rate, inside of burning buldings, picking up garbage, having shootouts with drug dealers, teaching in ghetto high schools, and rushing someone to the hospital in an ambulance. Do you do any of these things? Most of you on SE right now are at work (don't deny it), so that right there proves that you have an easy job.

Compare, uh, teachers.... who represent 25% of union workers nationwide, and more here.

They make more than private school teachers, and significantly more so when benefits are included.

What's a government doctor, btw? And when did they get unionized?

And electricians and plumbers are, uh, unionized. Of course they make a lot.

"The contract with unions isn't so much for the hard work unions do in fact provide(i.e police, firefighters, etc) but it can also have a great deal to do with votes politicians can extract from them in return for the benefits."

Of course. The salaries/benefits they have now came not from work effort, but from the efforts of buying politicians. The packages they received aren't because anyone said they are entitled, its because thats what their votes were worth.

Did you ever notice how hard it is to reconcile certain New York ethnicities with their home countries.
New York Greeks for instance are some of the hardest working people I have ever seen in my life yet back home in Greece the press portrays Greeks as lazy sleepy wards of the state. Then again, I've met some tuff Italians in my time but, put those guys in an army uniform and what can they say? "I surrender". Then again, New York Jews don't exactly appear physically menacing but the Israeli Army....

You never heard of a govt. doctor? Who do you think the doctors are who work in city and federally owned hospitals are? VA? Bellevue?

>Really? Because when I compare apples to apples, the private sector makes more.
Uh really, so others folks in the private sector should just die? Thanks, great to know how big assholes the public sector is. The hot dog seller on the street doesn't deserve to live, because the public employee that watches porn on the government computer deserves his pay.

>Most public workers deserve decent pensions since they work much harder than everyone else.
I work nights and weekends, do I get double play? No? But public employees get extra pension for working for private companies.

They're scamming us out of our money.

"They make more than private school teachers, and significantly more so when benefits are included."

Really? Because this private school teacher made $40k in 1999 right out of college. That's more than public school teachers made back then:

http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues/20080803/Confessions+Private+School+Teacher

Most public workers get time and a half, not double pay.

Did you ever notice how hard it is to reconcile certain New York ethnicities with their home countries

Makes sense, It's not hard to believe that those that emigrate are more motivated and harder working than the larger population of their native country. Emigrating is not something one takes lightly. The press is also mischaracterizing the Native Greeks; People are people and respond to the incentives they are given within their respective societies.

"Lots of people work hard. That doesn't mean they should get to retire in their 50s with indeterminate lifetime pensions paid for by someone else."

Actually, it DOES, if part of the agreement in taking on life-threatening jobs with health-threatening shifts with relatively low salaries meant a DEFERRED compensation vis-a-vis a more generous pension.

You can't be changing the rules mid-game. It's patently unfair and immoral to those people who sacrificed decades of their lives who are now entitled to their full compensation.

@The_President When the article says LESS then 40k then it says

"After taxes, Anisha had only $1,500 left to spend per month"

Really do some math and bother with your lies.

Private business changes the rules all the time. Gov't increases has increased the retirement age, Miners don't get the benefits of a cop and many civil servants don't risk their lives. Nothing that's been argued suggests the contract is unchangable and teachers and other unions have introduced tiering into contracts where newer workers entering the union have differnet benefits than older workers.

It's really a straight forward concept. The city and state get a budget and have to live within the budget. No politician would spend their onwn money the way they spend the publics.

all the rich people who feel they are being robbed by the poor people are hopelessly disillusioned and i wish them good luck attaining a better grasp on reality.

The poor are not robbing the rich. the politians are.

NYCMatt, if you don't think rules of the game in life are changed all the time, well wake up. its usually then followed by a tough tittie on you with a rasberry. you know, for the common good. whats going on here and what we will see is a reduction of services, less trains, less park availablity, less libraries and even less teachers, cops and then fireman and then last but not least garbarge pickup. get used to mail without saturday delivery too (who cares). this all will be done in order to "protect" those golden egg pensions. they will have to be cut too at some point. this is just the beginning of the ball of twine yet to be unravled. but all these "cuts" will be on the backs of nyc taxpayers andresidents to protect some of the more outlandish pensions and the abuses built into the system and overtly "approved" by our esteemed "leaders". ugh.

"Private business changes the rules all the time."

That doesn't make it right.

*****

"Miners don't get the benefits of a cop"

If a miner (or anyone else) wants the benefits of a cop, he's more than welcome to become a cop and take on the risks and sacrifices that the job demands.

Interesting....

"but all these "cuts" will be on the backs of nyc taxpayers andresidents to protect some of the more outlandish pensions and the abuses built into the system"

Honestly, I don't see a $35K/year pension for a cop who's been risking his life his entire career to be "outlandish" in the least.

And what "abuses" are you talking about?

NYCMatt, admit it. your motivation here is the love of the uniform.

>all the rich people who feel they are being robbed by the poor people are hopelessly disillusioned and i wish them good luck attaining a better grasp on reality.

Poor people, working for government? Sorry, you're delusional. More then 40% of households in this country make less then 40k, and they don't work for government.

ha, but you have the south of france that time of year anyway. :)

Matt, plz. you aren't serious. look, my sister actually is a cop - my dad retired from the nypd as a civil engineer. but its common knowledge how they goose their pensions the last few years and how their hierarchy allows it. first dibbs on the ot to those retiring in the next two years...

head to provence - they turn "garbage" into gastronomical orgasms.

Actually many of the city/state union workers that have relatively generous retirement benefits don't risk their lives in any special way. The fact is not every civil servant is a cop or a fireman.

>yes, but every public worker isn't offerred early retirement either. your post specifically highlighted police officers.

Fine, actually I am more pissed with feds.

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20091211/1afedpay11_st.art.htm?loc=interstitialskip

The growth in six-figure salaries has pushed the average federal worker's pay to $71,206, compared with $40,331 in the private sector

Oh I dont worry about myself. My pay is certainly is in top 5% or so in US.

But it isn't fair to the 45% that have less then 40k, while they don't pay federal taxes (which i dont mind while they work), they still pay state taxes.

Yes, private includes fast food industry which has the lowest pay out of all. But are you telling me they aren't human and shouldn't be accounted anywhere?

How many crooks are there in the NY force or state officials... I wonder where is the ex-NYPD commissioner is, or NY senate majority leader?

Why should I pay for crooks?

nice. true, my experience was more personally related towards them but think almost identical for the FDNY and others. anyway, think this can be a pretty passionate debate for obvious reasons but its an issue that is going to be quite painful all the way around.

ar, just to be clear not happy to see wages and benefits of others decline. just seems like the ultimate logical outcome if you follow the bouncing ball. no doubt, politicos and others will try and continue to perpetuate the ruse but smoke and mirrors only get you so far - until recently, at least for the next four years of public office. eventually, the balance sheet has to add up or these ripple effects will be more like a tidal wave. i am not a doomsdayer by any means but those nyc re bears have a pretty formidable roar at the moment.

How about reducing the senate by half. Would we really notice the difference. Then add on to that, their staffs. Be honest, how many of you would miss Schumer, Lautenberg and Dodd (or whoever will replace him).

"Actually, it DOES, if part of the agreement in taking on life-threatening jobs with health-threatening shifts with relatively low salaries meant a DEFERRED compensation vis-a-vis a more generous pension.

You can't be changing the rules mid-game. It's patently unfair and immoral to those people who sacrificed decades of their lives who are now entitled to their full compensation."

True... of course that completely nullifies your case.

The unions DID change mid-game.

They took deferred compensation and lower current salaries.
Now they take higher current salaries AND the deferred compensation.

I'm fine with the original rules, unions aren't.

Are you?

ah, putting aside any personal bias on raising taxes - that "solution" doesnt come close to addressing the eventual shortfall.

"Honestly, I don't see a $35K/year pension for a cop who's been risking his life his entire career to be "outlandish" in the least."

Nor I. Nor anyone here.

Claiming that folks are would be a... yes, you guessed it... a STRAWMAN.

How about $350k after 20 years? That ok with you?

We are Greece and we are bankrupt. The social welfare state will die a slow and painful death. All of you big government entitlement prostitutes, will get what you deserve.

haha! okay, will take a look later tonight. just want to avoid any grey matter that might appear on my screen due to licc's unfortunate combustion.

@ar

Took me a bit of looking, but here were are.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/S5PClAnI9kI/AAAAAAAAM9I/YZNbYqnaT5w/s1600-h/fedjobs.jpg

Looks at the cook category.

Not to mention, when unions push for too much and make things unworkable, not only with unreasonable salaries and benfits but rediculous work rules that kill productivity (see construction union) the companies they deal with DIE, as do those jobs. There is a force pushing back.
This is why, of course, unions are dying off in the private sector.

In the public sector, there is no such pushback. Corrupt politicians give greedy unions things they can't afford, and won't have to pay anyway (the guys after will) and the citizens need to be punished for it forever because??!?!?

The system was set up and gamed by the unions. Because they scammed taxpayers out of the concessions, they deserve them forever?

Do bankrobbers get to keep the money when caught?

"Not to mention, when unions push for too much and make things unworkable, not only with unreasonable salaries and benfits but rediculous work rules that kill productivity"

Be specific. What's an "unreasonable" salary for a cop or firefighter? They're already averaging less than $50K. You want them to get paid LESS?

*****

"This is why, of course, unions are dying off in the private sector."

Actually, unions are holding steady in the private sector, and in some areas gaining new momentum, as workers realize they can no longer depend on the benevolence and integrity of employers.

*****

Corrupt politicians give greedy unions things they can't afford, and won't have to pay anyway (the guys after will)"

Examples, please?

*****

"Do bankrobbers get to keep the money when caught?"

Do you mean people who rob banks, or the people who work inside the banks who are robbing the taxpayers? In the case of the latter, yes they DO get to keep the money.

"i think SAHMs should unionize."

What will you include in your pattern of demands? More Bon-Bons?

Matt: I don't like sweets. Forget the bon-bons. How about a pension?