355 rsd 5w

bramstar: That Halstead team doesn't mess around. If the seller were serious and flexible, the listing would have gone to best and final eight months ago. Unless there has been a change of heart there, my guess would be another no-sale.

That said, the apartment is very nice, and unlike #10WN, it shows no visible signs of having ever been cut up. I even liked the mural in the dining room, although its days are probably numbered if the current owners ever sell.

So, West81st, you think the seller is farting around, eh? Interesting. I agree that the unit is better than 10WN re: the cut-up/re-glued issue but the views from 10 more than make up for that, IMO. 10WN clearly deserves a premium for the views alone.

Absolutely - big premium for the views on 10. Although #5W sits fairly high for the fifth floor, it's not in the same class.

I think the seller WAS f@rting around. Circumstances can change. FWIW, the price still smells of hydrogen sulfide.

Yep--5W is nice but cannot begin to compete with 10WN. That was one of my faves, along with 417 RSD 12C (which I like even better)--both have high ceilings and dramatic, expansive views. *Sigh*

How would you compare 355 riverside with 845 west end, 3E which seems similar in size? They are priced somewhat similarly, is 845 also inspirational or does the new renovation keep it priced in that area depsite having no view at all?

lologan: The folks who set the prices at 845 WEA seem to have understood that the "E" line is problematic on low floors. #3E is already discounted deeply for the lack of views and light; despite the discount, it might wind up as the last "broken toy" on the shelf unless somebody who can't afford the higher floors falls in love with the space and the finishes.

You're right that the footprints of the two apartments are similar, aside from some extra space in the LR and maid's room at 845. I think the listings will ultimately appeal to different buyers. First, there's the condo/coop difference; add the stark contrast in views/light, condition/finishes, and curb appeal of the buildings (355 is fairly shopworn until you get upstairs); then throw in 845's more convenient location, and you're really in a different sub-market. I'm inclined to say 355 is more valuable because its positive attributes are more enduring - and, to me, more endearing. That's just a gut feeling. 845 could very well fetch a higher price. At any rate, the Sponsor will eventually find the clearing price and sell it; 355 might simply sit.

Given the dearth of C7 options at the $2.5MM price point, the same people will look at both apartments. At the end of the day, though, I don't think they will wind up bidding against each other. The direct comp for a dark seven at 845 is a low-floor eight at 905 WEA, which goes for $2.4MM. With its shiny new renovations, 845 might even infiltrate the Ariel buyer base. I think the important comps for 355 are in buildings like 395 and 417 RSD - maybe 440, 300, 285 and 210 as well. There are apartments on West End that compete, but they are mostly on higher floors, with west-facing windows that clear the neighboring buildings.

West81, I know I asked you this before and I lost it. But do you mind sharing your e-mail? I have a few follow up questions if you don't mind.

west81st {at} gmail {dot} com will get him.

ali

No problem. Just put my screen name in front of @gmail.com.

As the Listing broker--there is a whole lot of talk about something that no one is really informed about. Just to set the record straight. The seller of 5W had multiple offers last year and had decided to keep the apartment as a pied a terre until she had confirmed that she really was relocating. Now that she has confirmed that she is not returning to Manhattan we premiered the listing to very strong interest in the first 3 days. Yes, the view is better from 10W----but the apartment was in need of much work to bring it back to the splendour of the original layout that 5-W has. It is very rare (and in fact the only W in the building that has not been cut up and or rejoined together). In addition 5W has been updated and restored--including the electric----in addition because of the topography outside 355 RSD the view allows for both beautiful park/tree tops and river views. Along with the fact that 10W closed at the end of 2009---this is a much different marketplace today, with many homes already in 2011 selling above the asking price. Hope this has been helpful.

multiple offers? never heard that before from a broker.

strong interest? what does that mean? sounds a lot like broker babble for no offers.

do you really believe that the view from the fifth floor is comparable with 10? renovations come and go---the view (or lack thereof) is forever.

amp: Very helpful, thank you. Apologies for the locker-room jargon. "F@rting around" just means she wasn't sure about selling, which seems pretty accurate. "Testing the market" would be a more polite term.

One small clarification: 10W closed in March 2010, not late 2009. By the time 10W hit the market in October 2009, the crisis had largely passed, the S&P had bounced nearly 60% from its March low, and quality listings were already enjoying the benefits of pent-up demand. 10W might fetch a higher price today, but it's hard to make a persuasive case either way.

You're right about all of 5W's advantages over 10W. As for the views, I don't think bramstar intended to disparage the view from 5W. It just isn't in the same class as the view from 10W.

columbiacounty: If we want this board to be anything more than an echo chamber for tired, bull-vs.-bear arguments, I think civility is in order when one of the top brokers at Halstead drops in to share non-public information about a listing. Is amp's disclosure self-serving? Sure, but it's also helpful and credible.

"with many homes already in 2011 selling above the asking price."

i guess we'll have to take your word for it, as they haven't hit recorded sales yet. but i've gotten the sense that sales, with a few exceptions, are very slow. maybe some very desirable properties are doing well, but elsewhere i'm not seeing it. and downtown seems almost comatose, but for the central and west village. the few things that close seem to do okay, but very few things seem to be closing. midtown east and the UES seem to be not doing well, except for some established condos. the small unit market seems quite ill, again except for some condo buildings. properties that have been priced well have been selling, others are languishing and closing well below list. any thoughts from others?

Oh, boy. And I'm the one who said the f-word first... I'll go stand in the corner. ;-)

Getting back on topic, as someone who visited 10WN, I respectfully disagree that the unit was 'in need of much work to bring it back to the splendor' of the original layout. On the contrary, I think the sellers had done a very handsome job of reattaching the two apartments and making the space whole again. I recall a very nice kitchen reno and decent bathrooms as well.

Also, as someone who is an avid river-phile I must say that treetop views with glimpses of water simply do not cut it for those seeking full river vistas. The difference between the two scenarios is vast and will absolutely affect value.

None of this is to say 5W is not a lovely unit with much potential, but I do stand by my original statement that the ask is aspirational. I guess only time will tell.

how is disputing a broker's tired old refrain a bull vs bear argument?

help me to understand how a statement of strong interest is sharing non public information?

tell me exactly what is helpful about amp's disclosure? the fact that the owner decided not to sell? that would seem self evident. the fact that the decision had nothing to do with the pricing on the offers received? i don't believe it.

and, why are you awe struck by the "top broker at halstead?"

The niche market that is 7+ rooms in prime-ish nonCPW UWS is doing quite well.

NYC10023: Exactly. As you know, that's AMP's market.

columbiacounty: Nobody's awestruck, and nobody's missing the spin. My point is just that we can have a more interesting conversation if we disagree in a civil way.

To point out that the listing agent has an agenda is to state the blindingly obvious. If AMP had shown up here under an alias and pretended to be, say, the heartbroken underbidder from #10W, he would deserve a spanking. Instead, he disclosed his identity and his interest. Within that context, you can take his post for what it's worth. If you think it's worthless, fine. My personal view is that more information is better than less, and that shouting down a listing agent - especially one with AMP's track record and market share - is counterproductive.

I always like to hear the other side's propaganda, because good propaganda contains just enough truth to be credible.

Bram: I have never been to 355RSD (I have visited 300, 285 a few times). Back to your question - my gut says 2.5m.

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

the fact that he states that 10W closed at the end of 2009 as evidence that it was a depressed price and you quite correctly pointed out that he missed the date by at least 3 months says it all.

i don't think you realize (and there is no reason that you should) how bruised and battered many of us have been by the likes of mr. big from halstead. in my business, that type of blatant misrepresentation (or factual error if you prefer) doesn't fly.

but, as always, i have no beef with you and wish that the broker community was more like you. it would make for a much better experience for everyone.

sure, west81st, then present the whole "with many homes in 2011 selling above asking price" within a credible context. many brokers extrapolate their niche experiences to the entire market. i don't care for it. i'm not saying there was necessarily any attempt to do so here, but i'm so tired of hearing year after year how good things are from brokers, including people who are my friends. it makes it difficult to tell when things really are good (although as you and 10023 have noted the 7+ room market in prime-ish nonCPW UWS is doing quite well).

Within that narrow context of the 7+room UWS apt with good views & light, blablabla, I think there may be one or two buyers at the 2.5 price point who will pay that for this apt. I don't see it going down to 2m right now. Things aren't good at all in the larger market. The nightmare of resetting mtges isn't over, bad economy, Feds printing $, artificially low interest rates, blablabla and at some point, it WILL spillover to this market.

this is a simple situation .... the 5th floor is not worth as much as the 10th floor. particularly when it comes to view apartments.

columbiacounty: Thanks. You know how much I have appreciated your support through my flirtation with the dark side of the Force.

The mistake on the dates is an interesting case in point. When somebody messes up something that's so easily fact-checked, I think you have to assume it's an honest mistake. That's not to say I condone brokers getting stuff like that wrong; I think they have a positive obligation to get it right, and their credibility takes a hit if they don't. But to intentionally fudge a closing date on a website that publishes closing dates? That would be pretty strange.

For better or worse, most people don't care as much about facts as the typical Streeteasy reader. And often, that indifference to detail blurs into a license to spin.

nyc, agreed--that niche market does seem to be strengthening (and it happens to be the market in which I'm looking, dang-it).

I do think, though, that 5W will likely trade somewhere in the $2.3-4 range, which would reflect the discount for the lesser views of a 10WN-type property. Personally, I believe 10WN's '10 sales price is pretty on par with its value today (correct me if I'm wrong on this) though it will likely climb as the market continues to strengthen.

Not so simple, CC. Sometimes in the space of a few months an inferior apt will sell for about the same or not as huge a differential as you might think. I wouldn't call it market movement. More like perceived scarcity of inventory and the size of the buyer pool at that moment.

Just look at the three B-line duplexes at 173-5 RSD.

well, worth and sales price often have little correlation.

w81st--my take on the dates is that many people simply make up facts to support their underlying argument. and get away with it because a lot of people on the other end (as you point out) don't care. doesn't make it right. and doesn't make it acceptable.

#5W was just reduced $100K, to $2.595MM. The reduction is small, but it does suggest that the seller may be more committed this time around.

i still think this apartment is seriously challenged because of the compromised nature of the view.

They're still chasing the 10WN dragon. Still too high. Agree with CC re: view issues.

Sure, the price is high, but it isn't crazy and #10W isn't the only relevant comp. 895 WEA #12A - with good light, but no view to speak of - sold for $2.425MM.

In valuing #5W, there's a plausible case for anything from $2-2.5MM. I'd lean toward the middle of that range, but amp has been doing this a lot longer than I have, and his record on pricing is better than most.

West--I've only poked my head into 5W briefly, when it first came on the market, so am not terribly familiar with it. How would you compare 5W to 10W with regards to condition? 5 definitely appeared to be more 'original' and in meed of work (at least from my very cursory glance).

By the way, I thought 10WN sold slightly higher than expected, though perhaps I'm wrong in this.

By the way, 895 WEA was in excellent condition; the owners had done a gorgeous reno and even used the roof to their advantage by installing not only central AC but also a top-of-the-line range hood in the kitchen. Great for folks who want to be able to grill indoors!

But seriously - I wasn't terribly surprised to see that unit go higher than ask. It showed beautifully; even without a view it felt open, roomy, light and airy.

Condition-wise, I strongly preferred 5W to 10W. It's partly a matter of taste: I'm a preservationist, not a renovator, so 5W's "originalness" is a plus for me. I thought 5W was very nicely cared for, and sensibly updated. Of course, the devil is in the details. We don't know what was lurking behind the walls, fixtures and outlets of either apartment.

West--I too prefer keeping the original character of a space. Perhaps it was the old-world wallpaper that threw me in 5W--wallpaper of any kind often scares me as I wonder what horrors it may conceal--but I'll defer to your assessment as I really didn't spend any significant time in the apartment.

And yes - one really NEVER knows what surprises may be lurking in a prewar apartment until one buys the place and begins renovating.

#5W was just reduced another $100K. Now asking $2.495MM.

hmmmn.

apparently the top broker guy didn't get a bite.

Still too expensive, IMO. I can understand paying a premium for the higher floor's full river view but the fifth floor just isn't quite 'there'. They'd do better asking around $2.3, IMO.

rsd without a real river view and way up town doesn't make any sense. not at this price or even close.

They started out using the 10WN comp ($2.6 sales price) as a guide and seem to be doggedly holding on. The price cuts they've taken still suggest they haven't yet quite come to grips with reality--that the higher floor apartment will always command a premium for its views; 5C cannot compete in that regard.

Maybe 440 RSD #41 is a better comp, though it's even farther north. It appears to have sold for a little under $2.2MM; hasn't hit ACRIS yet.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/553442-coop-440-riverside-drive-morningside-heights-new-york

Bramstar called it. #5W closed on 11/18/11 for $2,329,375.

we'll never know but it would sure be interesting to hear about what kind of offers were rejected when this listing was first placed.

Interesting. It's a really nice apartment but clearly without the views of 10WN couldn't achieve the same kind of premium. Still and all, a very solid closing price.

By the way--I never understand when closing prices are odd numbers like this. It's a multi-million-dollar transaction yet they're quibbling over change? Couldn't they have rounded things out? You know--$3,330,000? What's up with that??

possibly either or both agents brought their fees down to close the deal and/or nitpicking about remaining fixtures. think about it for a second---we've now arrived after long and hard negotiation at $2,329,375. as the buyer, would you round up to to $2,350,000? or as seller to $2,300,000? best to leave it as is.

bramstar: An odd closing price usually reflects one of three conditions:
1) The buyer paid some or all of the transfer taxes;
2) The buyer paid a transfer fee/flip tax, which was included in the reported price;
3) In a "best-and-final" round, the successful bidder intentionally submitted an uneven number to set herself apart from round-number bids.

never a give on the commish?

>3) In a "best-and-final" round, the successful bidder intentionally submitted an uneven number to set herself apart from round-number bids.

That's ridiculous. Instead of $2,329,500, the winner bid $2,329,375 so he could still beat the more round number $2,329,250 bid but not overpay?