Doom and Gloom and Gloom and Doom

InvestorMan - do you read 13D?

buy now or be priced out forever.

Yep! I see this kind of data way too often for my own good. Probably the reason I've been so over the top bullish on RE (anywhere for that matter) for the past couple of years.

Just think how much better everything would get if the global government bond auctions, specially ours, don't attract sufficient investment interest.

Informative read. Thanks!

"Just think how much better everything would get if the global government bond auctions, specially ours, don't attract sufficient investment interest."

ahhhh... take a whiff of that entree... through the kitchen door.... smells delish doesn't it? don't worry, it's coming soon... be patient.

Doesn't effect me one bit, thankfully.

"Just think how much better everything would get if the global government bond auctions, specially ours, don't attract sufficient investment interest."

It has happened before, its not a pretty picture. many may not remember, but we(U.S.Govt) used to issue 20 yr bonds and 30 yr bond that were callable after 25 years. Most of these have recently matured or been called. In particular were a few of my favorites. The 14,00% of Nov 2011 callable in 2006, Also, a 20 yr bond, I think it was auctioned in 1981, I think it came in the high 14 percent range with a tail so large the U.S.Treasury reset the coupon the next day save a few dealers. It may have ultimately had 15.75% coupon. It is ugly, even for the Gov't haters, we don't want this environment. Maybe an old bond trader in the group may want to relive some of his glory days with details of 20% prime rates and double digit bond yields. Ah the Volcker days, here we come again!

GTFOHWTBS desgarcons.. thankfully

Jealous?

nah... just that trolls don't entertain me as much as they used. that other wack thread of yours about your rich parents in medicine would have illicited a smirk, but nah, it didn't.

trolling on this board just got old. you can thank rufus. now it's just wack. adios. sorry, you came too late.

don't rule out 8% 20-30 years in 2010.

Why do people praise Case Shiller likes its the best thing since the bible? Do we really need Case Shiller to tell us RE prices are falling?

Buy now or be priced in forever!

>Why do people praise Case Shiller likes its the best thing since the bible? Do we really need Case Shiller to tell us RE prices are falling?<

Agreed, not sure what the romance is with these reports. I don't see a reason to use Case Shiller other than for lite reading, if at all.. The only facts that in reality relevant are employment trends, credit availability, rental price trends, levels of home ownership (remain very high by historical standards) and the level of housing prices versus the long term median. All of the above are headed south & it's very difficult to see a quick fix that will reverse any of them.

Property taxes have also shot up like a rocket in the past several years which has added significantly to the cost of ownership. Unfortunately, states' fiscal budgets (better said, black holes) can't afford to offer relief on this front.

got tbt?

>don't rule out 8% 20-30 years in 2010.<

Talking about a market that can choke on the gargantuan flood of new blobal supply.

Funny, I heard some market expert commentary that the current trend of rising Treasury rates was a silver lining for the equity markets. His reasoning, it's an indicator of diminished fear of risk taking amongst the investor ranks. I have some ocean front property in Kansas I'd like to sell to this chap at a very good price. :)

Correction: should be "global" & not "blobal". :)

Noah, what's tbt?

serge07 I agree with you 100%.

serge07, I asked bjw2103 did his property gain, lose or maintain value because he lives by comps and data and frequently quotes Cash Shiller. bjw2103, replied I don't know if my property lost, gained or maintained value I have not tried to sell. bjw2103, mortgaged during the peak in Williamsburg. What would your assessment on the value of his property be (lost, maintained or gained value) based on no comps and data available from the building he resides, only using comps and data from the general market? No correct or incorrect answer looking for your logical answer to shed light on this sensitive issue regarding bjw2103 property value.

Noah, haaha looks like the discussions we had earlier regardng tbt and gold are slowly but surely coming to fruition.

very nice. the real crisis is fast approaching. i think we're pretty much done with the appetizer now.

mutombonyc, your obsession with my "property value" is creepy.

Your property not losing value during these tough economic times is creepy. I want to know how you pulled that one off?

mutombo, again, I never made a claim one way or the other. Frankly, I don't really care because I don't want to sell anytime soon, and it's extremely unlikely I would have to either. Therefore, stop worrying about it.

tbt is an etf that aims to short 20YR treasury index

What I smell is capitulation. If you guys are somehow spinning the news that old debt at 15% interest now has to be refinanced by the federal government at... under 3%... as *negative* news, you're smoking something (and I want some!).

Its awful. Its terrible. I hate having to refinance at 1/5th the interest rate I used to be paying.

:yawn:

I'm going to rebalance my portfolio to be heavier in stocks. When everyone else is fearful...

bjw2103, I'm not worrying about your property but I know you are worrying about it LOL. Its funny after I asked did you mortgage and "investment" or did you mortgage a "place to live" now you done ran off with my phrase but all of my opinions and facts are ridiculous but now you are using them to benefit you. Is your mayor still going to create 400K jobs in NYC in the next 4 years if he's re-elected? I know he aint going to create 400k jobs if he's re-elected but do you?

Pathetic

> What I smell is capitulation

Yeah, a bunch of folks tried making that claim on this board months back, too. Keep dreaming.

Still TONS of folks in denial....

denial is not just a river.

"Yeah, a bunch of folks tried making that claim on this board months back, too. Keep dreaming."

Another one bites the dusta!!

But wait... S&P's Chambers Sees U.S. Debt at 70% of GDP by0 2013.

Re-read that: 70% of GDP, by 2013.

http://www.bloomberg.com/avp/avp.htm?N=av&T=S%26P%27s%20Chambers%20Sees%20U.S.%20Debt%20at%2070%25%20of%20GDP%20by%202013&clipSRC=mms://media2.bloomberg.com/cache/vsoqe3Q.L8CE.asf

This is the Managing Director of S&P, the same person who warned of problems building up for the US's AAA credit rating.

Get ready people. Obviously, the Gov't cannot allow that to happen. Something drastic is going to happen before it reaches that stage. Be prepared.

Someone else said the economy would do well months ago, and was wrong? You're kidding me? Well now, that's obvious and irrefutable proof that I'm wrong now. You win.

mutombo, your posts are illegible run-ons and substanceless. Or are you going to refer me to craigslist again?

bjw2103 yes, I will refer you to craigslist again as craigslist ended up on SE, as I said before no brokers fee, 1-3 months rent free, moving in mid-month are practices unheard of until today. Why are these practices going on today in this abnormal market? At the peak of the housing boom these practices were not an option because if you don't buy or rent now you would have been priced out forever because RE only appreciates. Now this thread post has plenty of substance and its not coke.

I don't think Case Shiller is the bible, either. However, you can't deny that graph, or the friggin common sense, that show home prices went ridiculous about 1999 and kept going right up until a couple years ago. I mean, come on.

When in RATIONAL history has real estate gone up so much across the board? Besides in Wall Street (which has all but disappeared), did any of you have many friends that had double digit salary growth over that time? I sure didn't.

What fueled this huge growth in housing values, Wall St. bonuses and profits, and consumer spending that brought us here?

InvestorMan, you're implying that home values were the sole cause of economic prosperity in the last decade, and now that home values are going down, we should all buy guns, ammo, and canned food. The problem is that bulls know there was quite a bit more to our economic prosperity besides home values. Are consumers slowing down because they're worried? Obviously.

Will we shoot back to 1999 because every single non-housing, non-finance industry sat around twiddilng their thumbs for 10 years? Obviously not.

I did not say Case Shiller was the bible. What I'm saying is do we really need Case Shiller to tell us RE is depreciating and how long it will continue to dip for given all thats going on in the economy?

I'm implying that home values that created wealth out of thin air in a roaring Ponzi scheme, huge increases in debt accumulation by the average American because we've become a society of instant gratification and no savings, unsavory practices by Wall Street and mortgage brokers in forming CDOs/CDSs/MBSs/DBSs/etc. that increased this mess exponentially, government complicity in keeping rates low for far too long and encouraging GSEs like Fannie and Freddie to buy anything under the sun, and a belief that prosperity can't have a serious down cycle are all part of it.

I fully understand that not EVERYTHING has gone crazy in the last decade. There have been some amazing technological advances, doctors haven't changed (outside of the elective realm), business consulting is still needed, art is still art, acting is still acting, and music still moves people. But, you still can't get me to believe that most of this growth has been RATIONAL. Common sense still finds its way into my thinking and, well, people haven't gotten any wealthier in a real sense; although they sure have in a debt-fueled spending sense...

I'm also not saying there shouldn't be bulls. Hell, a bull in the guns, ammo, and/or canned good industry would have done quite well, actually. Ammunition prices have doubled, "black" guns prices have gone up, and, from what I see, I'm paying over twice as much for a can of soup than I was (albeit, I was in Texas for my lower baseline) I was back around 2005. You could buy Campbell's Chunky for a $1.25 at HEB during that time. Granted, NYC is given to be more expensive, but I'm paying about $2.70 here. That's a bit of a stretch for an NYC premium.

Guess there just isn't as much of a market for canned soups. Yet. Maybe Wall St. could securitize them for me...

"that increased this mess exponentially"

I don't think you understand what that word means.

"Common sense still finds its way into my thinking and, well, people haven't gotten any wealthier in a real sense"

I don't see anything common there at all. Completely ignoring house values, most people consider themselves wealthier now than they were 10 years ago in a real sense. Maybe not in your social circles, but something tells me your social circles are predominantly finance people. Obviously they're doing quite a bit worse now than they were 10 years ago.

Real America is doing better.

"I'm implying that home values that created wealth out of thin air in a roaring Ponzi scheme, huge increases in debt accumulation by the average American because we've become a society of instant gratification and no savings, unsavory practices by Wall Street and mortgage brokers in forming CDOs/CDSs/MBSs/DBSs/etc. that increased this mess exponentially, government complicity in keeping rates low for far too long and encouraging GSEs like Fannie and Freddie to buy anything under the sun, and a belief that prosperity can't have a serious down cycle are all part of it."

Absolutely...

And this...

"But, you still can't get me to believe that most of this growth has been RATIONAL. "

BINGO.

Bubble, plain and simple. Assuming that recovery means "back to bubble prices" is also insane.

"Maybe not in your social circles, but something tells me your social circles are predominantly finance people. "

Couldn't be further from the truth, my friend. Actually, my social circles don't include a single person in finance or real estate. I'm just a humble civil servant with this little burg and most of my 11k strong "social circle" is feeling pounded by having their 401ks return to levels they were a decade ago and their home values dropping double digits. Now, for me, since I'm a new addition to this city's workforce, I've gotta worry about the safety of my own job, as this collapse has crushed tax revenues and threatened Mike's ability to cut me a check for my labor every two weeks.

My roommate is in Commercial Insurance and has seen his retirement bombed out as much of his stock and option-paid matching and contributions have BOMBED, as well as his 401k, due to this downturn. Another friend who does web development in the online music industry saw his bonus slashed compared to last year and got nothing for a raise. Many other friends have been laid off and can't find work (or enough work) in industries such as sales, magazine editing, fashion, and even bartending.

The bar I used to tend at before getting on with the city had always said I could come back if I needed to. The problem is, they don't have any open slots because so many people have come back after getting laid off in finance, fashion, and sales. If shifts do open up or someone needs a day covered, it's usually scooped up in MINUTES by someone else. This never happened a year ago.

The downturn is real and affecting people far outside of the finance/real estate industry; people that never really had anything to do with those industries, either.

And I do know what exponentially means. Look at that graph of the Case Shiller housing index over the last 20 years that is in that link I posted up. THAT growth (from 99-05/06) is EXPONENTIAL. What do you think caused it?

"and most of my 11k strong "social circle""

Huh? Are you counting MySpace friends or something?

"having their 401ks return to levels they were a decade ago"

They haven't been putting money in? I up'ed my contributions to the IRS max these first few pay periods to make sure my deposits take advantage of this dip. If your friends are bartending, I'm guessing they're on the younger side (as am I) and people our age shouldn't even think about 401k's, aside from figuring out how best to contribute the max. You really think 30-40 years from now, we'll be upset with the 401k stock purchases we made in 2007, 2008, or 2009? I don't.

Sorry to hear that your friends are in such bad situations with regard to their current jobs. I'm not seeing the same among my non-finance friends.

"no brokers fee, 1-3 months rent free, moving in mid-month are practices unheard of until today"

Unheard of until today? Are you sure? Because you shouldn't be. mutombo, if you don't like comps to gauge value, we're just on a different page. Sorry. There's nothing to advance the discussion, so let's just agree to disagree and keep it civil. Thanks.

"And I do know what exponentially means. Look at that graph of the Case Shiller housing index over the last 20 years that is in that link I posted up. THAT growth (from 99-05/06) is EXPONENTIAL. What do you think caused it?"

Stupidity?

Believing (yet again) "it is different this time".

As for exponential... you're basically saying the price can be found by multiplying B * G^T, where B=base price, G=growth rate, T=time. Yeah. Notice anything special about that? Its how you also calculate the growth of 30 year CD rates. Anything with compounded growth. Its uninteresting. Thats what I mean by you don't know what exponential means - you don't realize every compounded growth is exponential.

What you're really saying is "G" is too large. Yet you use "exponential" because it sounds scary.

tech_guy, you're a terrible judge of character. InvestorMan is definetly not a typical Wall Streeter. His screen name is very misleading. He is a hick and redneck from Texas. He actually knows how much canned soup costs.

As for his knowledge on ammunition costs, I'm sure he is a card carrying member of the NRA. The run up in the cost of guns and ammunition is not due to the economy but based on another irrational hyped up fear, that Obama will tighten the sales and possession of guns. BTW, do you know how difficult it is to get a pistol license in NYC? Unless you are in the armored truck business or revenue escorts, slim to none.

InvestorMan is just another typical negative hyper that thinks he is brining something new to the table. He's a dime a dozen on this table. And the fact that his posts so far have been erroneous should discredit him even more. Check out his thread "NYC Foreclosures on Bloomberg TV"

TG - I stopped doing math when paste stopped tasting so good. Nice equations, though. Makes you sound really smart.

My 11k strong "social circle" is the people I work with. My "company," you could say. That's why I used quotes around "social circle" and because I pulled that term from you.

Ahhh, King. You're my boy. Your analysis of character is spot on and your very descriptive use of nouns describing my background is flattering. At least you know you've got a good career in palm reading if you find you can't make payments on your overpriced apartment. But, it's still a bit off. I never said I was FROM Texas; I said I'd lived there. I'm also guessing you've never been to Austin, because it's certainly not very redneck.

Of course I know how tough it is to get a pistol license. But, it's much easier to get a rifle or shotgun license and, well, those are exponentially (that's for you, TG) better for protection than a pistol.

I would like you to tell me how, exactly, my posts have been erroneous or, for that matter, add some input to one of these posts that would be worth more than the tightly coiled piles my dog leaves in the yard. I've yet to hear some of your, surely, ground breaking input on the current situations.

Because, thus far, all you and TG have been able to accomplish is flaming other opinions on this board while offering very little factual input to rebut our views besides "it's NYC" or "it'll never happen here."

That's wishful thinking; not hard facts.

TG is also the guy who wondered why China doesn't put money under mattresses, and made a host of other Econ 101 mistakes... so, use the ignore button.

tech-guy, I believe the substitution of the word "parabolic" for "exponential" should clear up the log jam.

All one needs to know about any market in history that has concluded a long bull phase with a "parabolic" rise......the conclusion is ugly.

Best darn shorting opportunities on the planet develop whenever this occurs whether in be Tokyo, NASDQ, China, Russia, Brazil. India, Crude oil, Tulips, Euro, Sterling and little ol' brick & mortar structures.

Thank you, Serge07. I knew someone smart would come along and clear that up. I should have been using "parabolic." My bad and thanks again.

The point's the same, regardless of me using the correct word; increases like that are a recipe for disaster.

Yo... shrimpie... how's the bacon tasting?

kingdeka.. bend over... there's a lot of polyps that need to be removed before you get off metamucil....

bj... hahahaahahaha.... there was this other TA in my university... his had a thick accent and his first and middle initial was F.U... sometimes we'd all over-hear him as he was trying to make reservations... and he'd be screaming F.U. hilarious! Oh... my point being F.U. too (like Tupac said)... InvestorMan... I tried to buy Denialade this morning for the bomb shelter... Techie/king/Bj... beat me to it :)

mutombo... is there anyway you can shot block these idiots?

"Nice equations, though. Makes you sound really smart."

What's sad is that I posted the equations to show how stupid and simple it was. Yet you interpreted it as me bragging. Maybe you ate a bit too much paste?

"bj... hahahaahahaha.... there was this other TA in my university... his had a thick accent and his first and middle initial was F.U... sometimes we'd all over-hear him as he was trying to make reservations... and he'd be screaming F.U. hilarious! Oh... my point being F.U. too (like Tupac said)... InvestorMan... I tried to buy Denialade this morning for the bomb shelter... Techie/king/Bj... beat me to it :)

mutombo... is there anyway you can shot block these idiots?"

What is this incomprehensible babble?

As for proof... what proof? You "proved" that nation wide housing is in trouble. Really? It is? I had no idea... can you prove it to me a little more? How about a proof that the sun will rise tomorrow?

You haven't proved that this implies further economic collapse. Instead you bring up strawman arguments, pretending I said "it's NYC". I wasn't talking about NYC. I don't know why you were. I was talking about the nation wide economy.

InvestorMan, no problem.:)

Not smart at all. I'm just a study of history that's had far more experienced folks teach me a thing or two.

Personally, I prefer the term "hockey stick" but that would probably result in another log jam.

BTW, you might check freshdirect.com. One of the great things about NY living is rarely having to visit an over priced & crowded grocery store. You might get a better deal on canned soup plus its delivered to your door step.

If you study history and bet against the US stock market, you're not a very good student :) That's the reality - anyone saying the US economy will not recover are the ones saying "this time it's different".

"You "proved" that nation wide housing is in trouble. Really? It is? I had no idea... can you prove it to me a little more? How about a proof that the sun will rise tomorrow?"

Funny, coming fromt he guy who didn't actually believe it....

Funny, coming from someone who told me he put me on ignore. Then took me off, then told me he put me on ignore again. And in the middle, had very childish comments along the lines of "I ignore tech_guy so I can't see what he wrote above, but

Odd... Streeteasy ate the middle of my 3 paragraph post and turned it into a 1 paragraph mush. Maybe that's what happens to w67? Only it happens to him every single post.

Anyway, I never once said nation-wide housing is not in trouble. I challenge you to provide a link proving otherwise (you can't).

"If you study history and bet against the US stock market, you're not a very good student "

This very much depends on the era you are in, and when you need your money. History has been punctuated with many year long spans where stocks were doing very poorly. The apt question now is are we in one of those now?

nyc10022: All you do is troll pathetic (and incorrect) ad hominems. There's never any substance. Its really old. Save everyone the wasted time of reading your dribble, and suppress the urge to "show comment" me.

tech-guy, I don't bet against great American or international companies. I spend most of my time searching for such investments that have demonstrated an ability to grow earnings and dividends during this climate. However, there are many companies that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. I rather see it as a market of individual companies and not so much some sort of market index.

Studying history and seeing similar trends develop which were historically indicative of major tops, saved quite a few people a heck of a lot of money from the latest rout & that of 2000-2. Tops have usually been not too difficult to spot but bottoms are a totally different animal.

Matt wrote me an email and said I was kicking too much sand in your face and that he'll try to limit the number of alias accounts that mysteriously "back-up" Techie if I lay off on you :)

Apparently having your mom write streeteasy saying how you get pushed around you are on the threads is helping .... poor Tech_mom :(

Funny how colonelKlink, shrimpie..... never post when you're on this tirade against Serge07, nyc10022 and IvesMan... Oh well... back to your 1 bdrm and coding... seriously when's the last time you kissed a girl? and I don't mean kissing Petridish...

bjw2103, yes, I'm sure those practices are unheard until today, and if those practices existed pre-boom the burden of proof is on to prove otherwise if not shut your face. I'm going to shot block your property from losing value since its the only property made of teflon and totally immune and resistant from this housing crisis.

w67th, you can't *possibly* be so stupid as to think I'm the only person on these boards who especially doesn't like you, and goes especially out of their way to insult you. Well yes, maybe you can be...

> All you do is troll pathetic (and incorrect) ad hominems. There's never any substance. Its really
> old.

-techtroll

Why is it that the biggest complainers are generally the biggest idiots and the biggest hypocrites?

"Why is it that the biggest complainers are generally the biggest idiots and the biggest hypocrites?"

Exactly.

Glad to see you are now recognizing your inferior intellect as well as your troll nature.

But, if thats the case, why do you post at all? What on earth do you think you add here?

TG, I'd say if you bet on the markets in the last 10 years, you're probably not too happy with yourself. If you invested hoping for market growth at the beginning of the 70s, you probably weren't happy at the dawn of the 80s. The "it will always go up" mentality, whether it's real estate, markets, gold, bullets, oil, etc. has proved to be an erroneous one and, to the best of my ability, I try to bet in both directions; as well as play the swings in a flat market bouncing between resistance and support.

I'm not betting against the markets in the long term. I'm bullish for the US and, actually, continually DCA into a long-term portfolio of dividend payers in my IRA; as well as a 457. I love that the markets are down now; it means I'm getting more for my dollar each pay period/buy-in. I've got, oh, 32 years until I can tap into my IRA and at least another 20 until I can retire and get to my 457; so I can most certainly patiently await a market recovery and handle ups and downs. But, I totally understand the problem in becoming an "investor," as this usually just means a position was taken at the wrong time and profitability will have to be waited for.

Real estate is no different.

Do I think it's possible we could end up with severe hyperinflation with a heavily devalued currency, gold at multiple-thousands per oz, and total lack of trust in the government; yeah. Anything's possible. Since that is, I will be prepared for it, as it's much better to be holding onto some gold and silver coins instead of pressing your face into the front window of your bank when you want in to get your money because they have a run on the place.

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. Being ignorant of the possibility isn't something I want to be, since the ramifications can be pretty heavy. But, that's just me. You'll do, believe, and act how you want and both of us will deal with the consequences of our bets; whichever way this plays out.

nyc10022, to quote you:

;)

"nyc10022
about 2 weeks ago
ignore this person
report abuse

guys, really... grow up."

I'm just trying to get rid of the troll.... you seem to like long arguments with them.

nyc10022: I don't need to justify myself to you. Anybody looking through this thread sees a useful, informative debate among me, InvestorMan, serge07, others... while you continually troll about how I'm a troll. What you said about the biggest complainers is exactly right.

"I'm just trying to get rid of the troll...."

Yes, your 345734893453 responses to the Chicago guy really seem to have worked in that regard.

InvestorMan: "TG, I'd say if you bet on the markets in the last 10 years, you're probably not too happy with yourself"

Depends on many circumstances. I've been putting money in my 401k, and I'm very happy about that because I do believe 40 years from now, it will turn out to have been a smart bet. Smarter than CDs or government bonds would have been during that same period. Anyone who bought in 2002 or 2003 may be mildly underwater, but probably isn't unhappy. 2001 or 2004/2005 buyers probably aren't terribly upset either.

"The "it will always go up" mentality, whether it's real estate, markets, gold, bullets, oil, etc. has proved to be an erroneous one"

Over 10 years, you're still iffy. Over 20 years, the market generally goes up. Over 40 years, it always goes up. Stock market, that is. Not real estate, gold, bullets (don't they typically go down long term, due to technological advances?), or oil.

"Do I think it's possible we could end up with severe hyperinflation..."

My way of mitigating this is by having a large 30 year loan with a low fixed interest rate. My mortgage, that is.

"Prepare for the worst, hope for the best."

Agreed. When I say I see capitulation on these boards, its true. I think the most likely scenario is that S&P 800 is a local floor and the previous 750 was the bottom for this recession. There will probably be more negative news, but probably not worse than what the market already expects. I'm still preparing for worse, but I just don't think worse is likely.

> nyc10022: I don't need to justify myself to you. Anybody looking through this thread sees a useful,
> informative debate among me, InvestorMan, serge07, others...

Yes, we'll ignore all the complaints about you from all the people who think you are an idiot. Just check the China thread if you can't recall.

> Yes, your 345734893453 responses to the Chicago guy really seem to have worked in that regard.

Actually, they finally are. Once I post the standard response, he almost never responds. Check... at this pace, he'll be gone soon.

"Just check the China thread if you can't recall."

Or, hell, this one. If you think your posts are "useful" and "informative", you are either funnier than I thought, or dumber.

nyc10022, its obvious that your M.O. is to insult anyone bullish, regardless of content, and support anyone bearish, regardless of content. I honestly could not possibly care less what such a person thinks of me.

What's sad is that you'll never realize what its like to look at something objectively. And by implication, how you look to anyone objective. Obviously w67th will support you, and its sad that such support (obviously similar bias, regardless of content) is enough to give you the confidence you have.

oh gawd... let's just leave the poor kid alone already... we already established that tech_guy lives in another world altogether so reasoning with him is a waste of time. it's just a step above trying to reason with rufus.

Well, anyone bullish on RE in 2008 - including you - was shown to be painfully wrong, so not quite sure what your point is there.

And "supporting anyone bearish" is just a lie.

> I honestly could not possibly care less what such a person thinks of me.

Amusing, given that you'll argue to the death with every last one of 'em... and I'm sure you'll do that here. You'll keep posting and posting and posting, without even trying to understand reality.

> What's sad is that you'll never realize what its like to look at something objectively. And by
> implication, how you look to anyone objective.

You are holding up YOURSELF as the model of objective?

ROTFL...

Don't confuse being painfully wrong with being mistaken. You are ignorant of the facts, and you speak of topics you don't know anything about.

Being dumb isn't being objective, its just being dumb.

> Obviously w67th will support you, and its sad that such support (obviously similar bias, regardless
> of content) is enough to give you the confidence you have.

Yes, W67 is what gives me confidence, not the fact the the numbers are now demonstrating what I said would be happening (and you screamed and cried would not)...

Wow, you are in utter denial. At least its a little funny.

nyc10022, let's forget about right or wrong and bear or bull for a second - the tone of your posts is puerile and petulant. Can we make it a little more civil and not relapse at every perceived slight? I don't care if someone's right 100% of the time and knows everything - that person is probably not passing the airplane test if he/she addresses you as such.

nyc10022, its hilarious that you talk about inability to read when this thread is about the nation wide economy, not NYC real estate. I made that abundantly clear in many of my posts. Kind of discredits everything else you say, when this 1 thread in isolation is sufficient to prove you obviously (and objectively) wrong. Not that much is needed to discredit your trolling.

> Can we make it a little more civil and not relapse at every perceived slight?

I haven't... I had the putz on ignore for quite some time. The nonsense just popped up again, as others started complaining as well.

That being said, why exactly are you addressing me, and not the troll?

I'm really addressing everyone.

thanks, hall monitor...

;-)

"oh gawd... let's just leave the poor kid alone already... we already established that tech_guy lives in another world altogether so reasoning with him is a waste of time. it's just a step above trying to reason with rufus. "

you are right MMA... back to the ignore...

good!

=D

bjw, I don't know how you do it, but I'm impressed.