Does joining apartments ever make sense?

Thanks kylewest, I think this subject does deserve its own thread. Like you, I have not seen any joined apartments that made sense to me, in terms of layout or cost. I have looked at a lot of apartments and quite a few joined apartments. The joined apartments always stand out from the crowd, and not in a good way.

I have friends who are in the process of joining two apartments in order to accommodate their two children. After speaking with the husband about what was involved, I was put off from the idea of doing a join, ever. There are the architect's fees, the city permits to get the services turned off in the other apartment, the huge costs for simple drywall work, on and on. I think he is not happy about how much the join is costing him.

I thought this one worked quite well (of course, no one can argue with that view!) albeit a bit steep maintenance-wise, especially considering the trash is only collected in the early AM on weekdays...

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/365920-coop-417-riverside-drive-morningside-heights-new-york

The only other 'combos' I've seen that I really think work flow-wise are apartments that had been split for years and were being recombined to achieve their original floorplans. Those can be glorious.

I saw a joined apartment last week where all the people did was knock a doorway size hole in the wall to combine the two. So they had two kitchens etc (very weird). I know others who purchased a 1BR and a 2BR and gutted the entire thing, completely redesigning the layout. It looks awesome (it was in a design magazine maybe 6 years ago). It certainly wasn't cheap but if it is done well it will look great (as in you would never know it used to be 2 apartments today).

The 1BR became the master BR, part of the living room was incorporated into the living room from the 2BR making a large living room and dining space. The kitchen in the 1BR became the master bath.

One combo I think could be tremendous is the two units on the market at the Normandy (fl 16). They are in terrible shape, and a combo + gut reno would be costly, but I think the result could be spectacular.

If you own an apartment and have an opportunity to add to the footprint by buying an adjacent property, the upside is not triggering a tax event. If you sell and move to a larger property, you have to pay taxes on the upside. If you just add to the footprint, no taxable event. The tradeoffs are the additional cost to renovate and potentially the strange layout.

dawase,
On primary residencess, $250k for people filing singly and $500k for those filing jointly, are exempted from capital gains tax. I'm not quite following your logic. You certainly trigger all of the transfer taxes when buying the second apartment. It is no different than buying any other apartment.

Simple answer: Done well, a combination can meet the particular needs of a specific owner very well. But that's a double edged sword, because the result is a residence tailored to those needs, which tends to make it less widely marketable than standard plans that have evolved over a hundred years.

Keep in mind, though, that "standard" floorplans can also outlive the lifestyle for which they were designed. As much as I would love a classic eight, I'm not likely to have two live-in servants any time soon.

Here's one that I think works pretty well:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/347701-coop-33-riverside-drive-upper-west-side-new-york

Unfortunately, the owner was a quant star at Lehman, so if anyone has a few million dollars and a taste for river views...

Good god, West81st, you're going to give me a heart attack with listings like that. Almost %5 million and $4k maintenance. Yeah, sure, it looks beautiful. We looked at apartments at 33 Riverside and just decided they were way overpriced. Other people like it. Every deal is a deal for someone.

Yeah, West, I love that one as well. Maybe Mega Millions or Lotto will come through this week...

>>On primary residencess, $250k for people filing singly and $500k for those filing jointly, are exempted from capital gains tax.<<

But I believe that's only a one-time deal for a first-time seller.

My stepmother bought two apartments in the early 80s and combined them into a duplex, which she subsequently sold for a nice profit in the early 90s.

Given that this was 25+ years ago its relevance to the present time is perhaps questionable. But if real estate does become as depressed as many think it will, cash rich buyers who can afford the construction costs will do well over time.

"But I believe that's only a one-time deal for a first-time seller. "

Nope, that is not my understanding at all. You can do it as many times as you want, as long as you live in a house for 2 years out of the last 5, in order to qualify as a primary residence. This change in policy has led to a very simple retirement strategy. Say you have bought four houses over your lifetime, renting three and living in one. You sell your current one, move into the next one, live two years, sell, and repeat. All of the gains are exempt within the limits.

You're right, 407. My bad.

Hmm. So this means that in order to apply the tax break we'll have to cram back into my shoe-box of a Village co-op and camp there for two years... Blech. But hey, just think about the money we'll save!

Squid, it might be worth it to move back into that little place. The Village is a lot of fun. I have friends who lived in a one room shoebox on University Place and managed for a long time.

One of my favorite small apartment stories involves a homeless Japanese woman who moved into a small Tokyo apartment, probably less than 500 square feet, unbeknownst to the owner. The woman managed to live undetected in a small storage closet for years, along with the owner and his family, I presume. Let's think about this for a minute. Somehow this woman was so quiet, so clean, and so respectful that she did not draw attention to herself.

I can only dream of finding such a tenant in this country. If someone could live in my one bedroom apartment for years, clean things as they were needed, and escape detection, I think I would welcome them in my home.

It did make sense when the price/sqft was larger for bigger apartments. So when the additional space yielded by combining apartments even after renovation costs made economic sense. For example, when the jump from a 2-bedroom to 3-bedroom was an extra 500k, if you could have annexed a studio for 250k (cost of renovation + cost of studio), it was well worth it. And as for the pain - it's not that big a deal (been through process of combining apts in a co-op 2x). And as for layout - you can't combine any 2 apts well. One thing I specifically looked in my 2-bedroom phase was a building that had a studio next door that I could have annexed easily (and it came on the market, and I did).

Link to the story about the homeless Japanese woman:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24889337/

Ok, she did take some food to survive and it was only a little over a year, but still fascinating.

and the man lived alone, so this makes more sense, but still quite amazing.

At this point in time, it's probably difficult to make the numbers work. If you can negotiate aggressively, it could be a situation that makes sense. Renovations are not quite as bad as some are making out - you do have to be smart and manage costs well. If you or your partner has experience doing renovations in the past, it helps a lot.

NYC - that is a great point. One of the things that I expect to see from this downturn/correction is that the jump in price will get smaller. I know that when I was looking there was such a significant increase from a 1BR to a 2BR or from a Jr4 and 1 BA to a 2br/2BA that it was almost shcoking in some cases. For me, this will be interesting to play out.

Kylewest - great question! I have to say I have noticed how hard it is to find a situation like this that makes sense. I guess West81st and NYC have given us a couple of examples where it works, but it looks like these are very hard to find. I will let you know if I come across anything that looks like a possibility.

Ever since I started living in NYC (1997), there's been a big jump price/persqft-wise from 1 to 2 bedrooms, 2 to 3 bedrooms. I think there will always be a premium, but that premium is shrinking. For example, one bedrooms in a doorman co-op were about 300k when I started looking in '98. Two bedrooms in the same building (but not twice the size) were priced at 600k. Studios were about 150k. So you could have had a large 2 bedroom (even better if an alcove studio) for 450k. At that point time, it would have cost you way less than 150k to renovate. Real 3-bedrooms (i.e. large dining/living room area) were 900k in the same building, so if you could have combined 2 large 1 bedrooms, then you would still have been ahead.

These days, with people spending 200+/sqft for renovations, the numbers don't look as good.

As for finding easy combinations, I suggest saving the building floorplans of any buildings you might be interested. IMO, it's easiest to do combos in postwar because a lot of the buildings have studios in the mix.
Prewars can be a little bit more difficult (except for recombining what had been broken up).

"And as for layout - you can't combine any 2 apts well."

This has been my experience as well, with the only real exceptions being when both places were totally gutted. Many times you have awkward layouts with two entrances or poorly flowing units.

I think the vast majority of combination result from couples spawning and needing more space. The one-bdrm or studio next door becomes available and bashing a hole in the wall between them is cheaper than moving--even with increased maintenance. The result is something very hard to sell. The second kitchen is always an issue (technically can't leave it there) and replacing it with a bathroom doesn't always get approval or work into a new layout. Joining old units that were once one doesn't count!

It probably works best when money doesn't matter that much, one's heart is set on a particular building/view/location, and a combination is the only way to get the amount of space needed.

I'd say in 90% of cases the result will appeal only to the owner and resale will take forever, require large loss, or happen only after the units are restored to 2 apts.

W81st's example does indeed appear from the plan to be a rare success story aesthetically and from a flow perspective.

kylewest,
I think you have it right. Joins fit the needs of a particular individual or family but do not conform to the needs of the marketplace. I have asked at various times on this board if a joined unit could be unjoined and my question is always met with silence. So, I guess that means it is expensive and difficult to unjoin, if the apartments have been combined to a large extent.

On the flip-side, has anyone seen an owner chopping a 2BR into a 1BR and a studio to sell? Is that even possible? My thought was, with the high cost of mortgages over $625k, perhaps owners of bigger apartments would figure they might do better splitting them up.

I don't think you could ever get the services (gas, water) to the other units in order to do a split like you envision. Good luck with the Department of Buildings. You should live so long.

> On the flip-side, has anyone seen an owner chopping a 2BR into a 1BR and a studio to sell?

What's funny is, just a few years back, everybody was combining. More years back, everyone WAS splitting up. Look at all those townhouses split up. TONS of apartments in this city were broken into fewer...

I think these two could become a very nice combined unit, though it would cost a bit to combine (considering the larger unit's kitchen is already in need of a gut.) But if you tore out the smaller apartment's kitchen you could have a huge living room, nice sized formal dining room (made out of the former larger apartment's living room, sans space for the new hallway between sides), and if you combined the larger apt's dining room into the kitchen, you'd have a 17x17 kitchen overlooking CP. Plus 5 good sized bedrooms.

The asking prices are outrageous. Both are more than 10% higher than peak comps. And combined maintenance would be about $5900/month. Way out of my price range...but one can dream.

1080 Fifth Avenue, 5C and 5B

http://www.stribling.com/propinfo.asp?webid=1064447&type=SALE

http://www.stribling.com/propinfo.asp?webid=1116013&type=SALE

Pity the poor agent who has to sell the thing and answer the question: "Why is the maintenance so high?", two thousand times.

I've seen a gorgeous combined penthouse that took two triplexes and combined them so that each floor was more spacious. It can work, especially when combining primarily-vertical apartments into ones that have both horizontal and vertical elements.

E.g., take 4BC at 246 WEA (http://www.corcoran.com/property/FloorPlan.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1056006) that went for $3.7M last year. The join was the wall in the middle of the kitchen. (Note the plumbing stack in that wall that lost part of the advantage of starting with adjoining kitchens.) The same combo was done with 10BC, but with a smaller kitchen and extra bedroom, but I can't find the plan for that. In both cases the combining owners hit peak premium for extra rooms.

246 WEA was originally constructed as 12 and 14 room apts (2 apts/floor), so B+C used to be part of 1 apt (minus 1 room).

It is easy to feel like a failure in New York when you see joined apartments selling for $3.7 million. Unfortunately, I don't see these joins making much sense for those of us with more modest means.

I live very close to 246WEA and truly don't understand the selling prices for the BC combo, even at the tippity-top of the bubble. The only answer I can come up with is that it's a Carpenter building, built pre WW1 and that is a rarity on the UWS.

Those A and C corner 2br/2b and the B 1br/1b -- alone or in combo -- show much better than they photograph. Large scale but nicely proportioned rather than loft- or barn-like, and having the long side of the LR facing out makes a big difference: no tunnel effect. #1C just closed (contracted in September) for $1.575M. That wasn't much off peak, considering it's just one floor up from the street. And as you said, Carpenter did just that one building on the UWS, while Candela did lots, most of them nothing special.

Speaking of joins, from today's On the Market column in the Times:

UPPER WEST SIDE CO-OP

$1,175,000
MAINTENANCE: $2,063 a month
MANHATTAN: 360 Riverside Drive (at 108th Street), #13CD

A two-bedroom two-bath apartment on the top floor of a handsome 1917 co-op. French doors open onto a flowing line of living rooms and a home office with views facing east, north and south.

PROS: The unit has gorgeous, if indirect, views of the Hudson; four hall closets; herringbone floors; and beautiful plaster trim. There is also a washer/dryer hookup.
CONS: The second bedroom is small, and the baths could use sprucing up. The maintenance is high, particularly for a building with no doorman.

From:
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/02/13/realestate/0215-nyc_14.html

For once, the Times mentions a Con that has something to do with the price. The maintenance is high, $2063, and with no doorman. Any idea on the deductibility of the maintenance?

I guess this would be another join that just does not make sense in the marketplace. Thoughts?

407PAS: 48% deductible. http://www.halstead.com/detail.aspx?id=1589971

That's a very stale listing that has been managed poorly, IMO:
05/03/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Halstead Property at $1,650,000
06/10/2008 Price decreased to $1,550,000
07/28/2008 Price decreased to $1,450,000
11/04/2008 Price decreased to $1,399,000
11/11/2008 Price decreased to $1,275,000
12/31/2008 Price decreased to $1,175,000

Probably at least 10% behind the market at every point. Of course, hindsight is 20-20, and it may not be the brokers' fault. If nothing else, they deserve credit for the extra exposure in the Times.

Thanks West81st. Talk about going out way over the market and not getting a clue for seven months. The place is starting to make a lot more sense now but there is still that huge maintenance with few services, from what I can see. It is a join that I will not be bidding on. I have not found an exception yet to my "No Joins" rule.

Correction: besides 246 WEA, J.E.R. Carpenter also did 173-175 RSD.

I think all about the time horizon (as many other things). If you're pretty sure you're going to live in the combo 15-20 years, I can see it making sense, for the reasons mentioned by many above. A former co-worker with 2 small kids and a lot of $$ did it in 2002-2003, and seems happy as a clam. I can see us doing it, under the right circumstances. The VERY right circumstances.

The place we bought was a combo of two junior 4s. (Someone else did most of the work, then got tapped out for money and had to sell, we did the final 10%.)

We think we got a great deal. The layout is not standard, but exactly fit our needs and the way we wanted to live. I love pre-war, but who really needs a maid's room these days?

Joining apartments is a great hedge - if the two-bedroom markets corrects (as it has shown to be more volatile then studios or one-bedrooms in the past), you can always split back into 2 one-bedrooms. It offers much more flexibility then a "normal" two-bedroom.

Not so sure what scoots says makes financial sense. Figure in the cost of combining. Then figure in the cost of un-combining. In the first stage, you have to eliminate a kitchen. In many combinations, the old kitchen becomes a bathroom. Walls may be shifted, closets rearranged, hallways created. Undoing all that is expensive and by the time you are done the "hotter" 1-bedroom market is unlikely to make up for all the costs you incurred.

If you are just banging a hole through the wall from one apt to another, and ripping out the kitchen and capping the pipes, I suppose maybe scoots' idea could add up. Nothing I'd wanna bet on though.

When you combine apartments, you cannot obtain mortgage/tax benefits of "primary residence" on both units unless they are combined legally on city records. And that which the City DOB has joined let no man (or woman) put asunder.

lizyank has it dead on. Good post.

1) I'm skeptical about lizyank's claim. Does anyone have a source for this (e.g., some sort of IRS publication)?

2) Many people who combine apartments tend to gobble up an apartment next door to one they've been living in for a while. In those cases, mortgage on the first may already be sufficiently low so that there's minimal impact.

3) my understanding is that mortgage interest is deductible for up to two residences anyway, so lizyank's problem may be less a concern as long as you don't combine 3 apartments or have a mortgage on a vacation house somewhere.

My parents annexed the apartment adjacent to their one bedroom rental not long after I was born but the apartments were never legally combined and they always wrote two rent checks. When I was trying to buy the apartment from the sponsor it was difficult to get financing because it was offically "two units" and banks saying that only one could be a "primary residence" and the other had to be considered "investment property". Eventually it was worked out, thanks to a good lawyer and mortgage broker, but there was alot of incremental angst and cost. Keeping the units s"eparate" was not an option...and prior to selling the apartment I had to file to finally have them legally combined which was a major beaucratic nightmare as there were absolutely no records of the actual combination--my father and the landlord agreed to it over a handshake and a beer and they are both long dead.

Both my parents and my sister combined 2 apartments. They both look great - both are now 3br, 3bath apts. Very nice. My sister made a killing because they were insiders in the bldg already and the apartments were a wreck and unoccupied. My parents combined in a new construction in the 80s. Oh 1 is a coop the other condo

Nominee for worst combination on the Upper West Side:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/300728-coop-270-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york
We've discussed this one on a few other threads. It has many shortcomings. The biggest can be summed up in two words: "Maintenance" and "staircase".

The market is punishing the sellers for their folly and poor timing. The listing debuted at $3.3MM in June. It just dropped under $2MM. http://www.bhsusa.com/detail.aspx?id=904814

Is it possible the owners paid $5.3MM for this mess?
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/40230
That can't be right, can it?

Ok, my wife remembered a join we looked at that was not too bad. We think it might have been originally two studios combined, we're not sure.

This place has been on the market for a long time, we're not sure why it has not sold. Maybe because it is up at 114th street or maybe because the second bedroom is very small.

Here it is:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/372714-coop-417-riverside-drive-morningside-heights-new-york

ad the broker's listing:

http://www.prudentialelliman.com/1068675

West81st, when 270WEA 11-12E came up before, I think it came out that the owner has had the penthouse for awhile, and later bought 12W, 12E, and 11E. ACRIS lists the $5.3M for 11E only, but it'd have to include one or more of the other apartments. A bath either way....

Re. 270 WEA, I'll go out on a limb and throw out that 2005 sale. The price is too implausible, and the owner already had the penthouse, so there's probably some quirk in the tax filing.

It's still an interesting price-chopper, and a terrible combination.

NWT: The 2005 tax filing shows 11E as the subject parcel, but lists three apartments - 11E, 12E and 12W - as the owner's address. There's no way to know what the transaction actually was, or exactly which assets are part of that duplex, so it's probably best to ignore that piece of history. The current situation is much more interesting, with one of the top brokers in the neighborhood throwing darts at the price.

Right, something's off there. I'd thought I'd dug up the three-apt sale, but turns out it was happyrenter on page 8 of the original IYCDMMWC.

Looking at the plan again, that space to the north of the kitchen couldn't have been intended as a big dining area, with living room elsewhere. There's a plumbing stack going through the middle that the plan-drawer neglected to color in.

Also intriguing that the last sale in this line, 7E, went for $1.45m in early '07. That suggests a significant drop for the combo of these two. It also seems the maintenance on the combined apt. is considerable higher than double the maintenance listed for 7E (though that may just be a function of higher floors and passage of time).

Also mentioned in the listing - looks like the seller's "will abate the maintenance for 2 years too" - i wonder how much they're willing to kick in.

West81st, how would you think about valuing this apartment? As a starting point, what do you think it would rent for? Is 10k too optimistic?

JohnDoe: I have a lot of respect for Lisa Lippman. If she can't price the thing, I wouldn't even presume to even try. In terms of practical space, this apartment competes with high-end classic sixes, and that sector is plummeting (see 110 RSD, 473 WEA, etc.). Considering the maintenance, $1.7MM for this one wouldn't shock me.

As for the rental option, I'm not even sure it exists at 270 WEA.

Where can I find information about legally joining two apartments? Would I be required to hire an architect for this, or is there some specialist that knows the protocols needed? I'm only dreaming about the possibility now, but I would want to be prepared if that opportunity appears.

pt95, it used to be that combos required a change to the Certificate of Occupancy. Since 1998, though, that's not required as long as there's "No change of use, occupancy or egress", which is the case with the combos I've seen. You would need all the permits, alteration agreement with your co-op or condo board, and on and on. I'm probably flinchy, but not something to get into without an architect. The NYC Building Info System will list all the permits issued for your building, so you can find other combos or major renovations and their architects/contractors.

Definitely will need an architect..also a licensed plumber. The paperwork alone will cost about $10,000 even if there is no construction to be done.

Wow, I had no idea the paperwork alone would cost so much. Thank you for you responses.

I love the idea & the creativity of combining apartments & I love Architectural Digest's 'before & after' issues but apparently the combined monthlies can be daunting for resale. They have a few apartments to combine at the Osborne but they'd need to be gutted, it seems, & no good layout comes to my mind. One of the floorplans doesn't even show plumbing!?!
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/205-west-57-street-new_york

In the Bolivar (230 CPW) - Joining apartments seem to be a ritual

Seinfeld had a pad there before

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/239182-coop-230-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york

Ah, the Osborne, we thought about that place for a few minutes. The one we were thinking of looked like too much renovation work. Those joins in there are not cheap, $1.6 million with $3200 maintenance, the 10DA apartment.

They even claim you could join with a couple of other apartments:

"It could be combined with 10DC to create a fantastic 3 or 4 bedroom apartment. "

Yikes, forget it.

I suppose joins make sense for those people who are not price sensitive, but for everyone else, I would say that we have proved our point that joins do not make sense in the marketplace. They're hard to sell and hard to unjoin. They're just not worth it.

This behemoth on Beekman Place has proven to be a hard sell.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/105662-coop-30-beekman-place-beekman-new-york

Wow, that Beekman place, $5000+ maintenance. I couldn't find any mention of the percentage deductible. Why don't these agents put that in the listing, it is the only thing that might make the apartment a little bit more palatable.

I think the market speaks volumes to those people who create these kind of unsaleable joins. Are the sellers listening?

It certainly is a spacious apartment & they may well have enjoyed the creativity of cobbling the place together but that one buyer they need has proven elusive. It's a great area with the river & the park right outside the door.

93rd: 225 CPW (the Alden) is even more of a "Frankenstein's Lab" for freakish combinations than 230. When supply is low in the buildings that were designed for families from the beginning, owners and buyers respond by combining smaller units in places like 225 and 230. Then the cycle turns and the market tide goes out; if those combos - most of them rather awkward - need to be sold while the tide is low, they offen suffer in competition with the real thing.

I'm in a 1br condo worth perhaps $650,000-$700,000 today (listings in my line are $750,000). I've had discussions with the owner of the identical adjoining 1br about buying his and combining. These units have been combined on other floors and have great layouts, so I'm comfortable that the result is marketable. A combined unit sold for $2 million at the height of the bubble.

I need more space (growing family), and it seems to me that a combination would be a better option than selling mine and incurring the associated costs (10% after commissions, fees, taxes). I realize that there may no longer be a premium for a larger unit now that the bubble burst, but I am assuming that the combined unit would have at least the same value per s.f. I would estimate the cost of renovations to be $100,000. An alternative would be to cut a door between them and maintain two kitchens and do a full gut renovation at a later date.

Other combinations in my building have not combined into one tax lot, so I see no need to incur that expense. Someone above mentioned that the tax lots would need to be combined in order to sell them at a later date, but the rationale for that is not clear to me.

Any thoughts or advice on whether (or how) to undertake a combination would be appreciated.

Let me also add that I estimate the cost of owning both apartments (with 80% mortgages on each) to be $7300/mo ($5600/mo after the tax deduction). Similar sized apartments in doorman condos in my neighborhood (Union Sq) rent for about $6000.

I'm a veteran of combos - done 2x myself. Yes, a combined apt will almost always be worth less than a similarly sized apt that was designed to be that size. However, in your situation: expanding family, love of neighborhood/building, transaction costs, longer term horizon, it may be worth it to expand next door rather than moving.

Our old combo apt, while not having the perfect flow for a 3br, had a lot of things going for it (due to the combo nature) not easily obtainable in other apts: large laundry room (part of an original kitchen), humongous walk-in closet in master br (most of an original kitchen), semi-open large kitchen (old kitchen + foyer) but not eat-in. Large bedroom sizes (all 3 brs used to be master brs or living rooms).

If you're combining a side-by-side 1br with its mirror image, the flow is generally less ideal - you typically only get 2 brs out of the combo, each equal size, in diff. corners of apts. Old kitchen in one becomes a laundry room.

But 1brcondo, prices are coming down - look at this 2br with dining alcove - http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/347767-coop-10-west-15th-street-chelsea-new-york.

"Let me also add that I estimate the cost of owning both apartments (with 80% mortgages on each) to be $7300/mo ($5600/mo after the tax deduction). Similar sized apartments in doorman condos in my neighborhood (Union Sq) rent for about $6000."

So...all this work and considerable financial risk to "save" $400 a month or less depending on tax situation in the future? Sell quickly and then take your choice of rentals.

IbrCondo, I recently considered combining with my neighbor's unit, but I ultimately decided not to do it because of the ridiculously high maintenance in comparison to similarly sized units. Although we would plan to live there for a long while, I worry that when we do need to sell, the maintenance would be so steep that it will be tough to move the unit. If your condo has reasonable carrying charges, then it's a more compelling argument to do a combo.

Thanks all for the thoughtful comments.

kas242 - the combined maintenance is about $1/sf, which wouldn't seem to be a deal breaker.

columbiacounty - your point is valid, and if I could sell my place quickly and for a good price I ought to do that.

nyc10023 - I have a million questions for you. Did you buy the units simultaneously or acquire, as I'm proposing? Did you have a mortgage on your first unit, and if so did you get the lender's permission to combine? Was your combination before or after the DOB required a new certificate of occupancy? Did you combine the tax lots (other combinations in my buidling did not combine tax lots). Was the combined maintenence simply the sum of both units? You are visualizing the layout exactly (the LRs are indeed adjacent), and my plan would be for a double size LR/DR, two master bedrooms, and an office/den/nursery where one kitchen is now.

Here's a similar question: we're negotiating with our upstairs neighbor to buy her apartment and combine by creating a duplex. (We're in a prewar UWS co-op; the Board seems favorable to the idea.) Are there different considerations for combining vertically than for a side by side combination? Thanks!

AJC10, you will lose square footage with a vertical combination in order to accomodate stairs. There are more challenging structural issues in order to break through the ceiling. Definitely speak with a contractor and architect before making a decision. You will most likely have sticker shock.

1brCondo:

I've been in 2 diff situations (buying 2 units simultaneously from one seller and buying neighbor's unit).

In the latter situation, I had a mortgage on the 1st unit, and I bought the neighbor's unit for cash because
I wanted to start construction ASAP. While in contract, I started shopping around for a mortgage on both units.
Shortly after we closed, we got a mortgage on both units - not hard at all (same lender). The lender asked us to
put 10k in escrow which we would get back once the wall bet. 2 units was broken through & kitchen capped.

As far as I know, the DOB still does NOT require a new C of O. It was a co-op which makes combinations easier, as you are just buying more shares in the building. Combined maintenance is the sum of both units.

Are your kitchens windowed, if so that would make a nice nursery/den. My suggestion for you is to make a 3br out of it as the double LR will be huge and have some wasted space near the 2nd front door. You can remove the 2nd front door (I had no trouble doing this), make a 3rd br out of a LR, and still have enough space by old front door to make a spacious dining area in front of your kitchen (if I'm visualizing this correctly). The other kitchen can be den/office/nursery as you suggested and contain laundry as well.

I wouldn't do an upstairs-downstairs combo unless the flow is exceptional or the location outstanding. There is never a good place to put a staircase in most apts, and you want most of your bedrooms on the same floor which is not easy to achieve.

One example - if you are combining 2 1-bedrooms, ideally you would get 3 bedrooms on the top floor, dining room, living room, kitchen on the bottom but you can't get this unless you have a generously sized windowed kitchen. If you combine 2 2-bedrooms, you would get 3 bedrooms for sure on one floor, but then you would end up with a bedroom on the main floor which is not ideal for most families.

AJC10, if you're not deterred already, wait, it gets worse. If your board seems to be OK with a vertical combo, it can only be because there hasn't yet been one in your building. A pre-war is most likely steel-framed, which makes punching through a big messy nightmare. It's not much easier with concrete-slab construction, as there you've got steel rebar to contend with. As the other posters said, it's much much more involved, expensive, time-consuming, etc. than going horizontally.

The only disadvantages that I know of in a combination is the (1) higher maintenance/monthlies because of the multiple-unit ownership and (2) faulty misconception that the eventual price of the combined unit should be the total of how much the units would sell for separately. After all, not all units that are side by side can be combined to create a space that is synergistic.

Combinations allow you to stay within a building and neighborhood (convenience is worth a bundle to me) and the freedom to create a space with your needs in mind. If the layout flows well, you're afforded more liveable space (who needs the higher square footage in paper if you can't even use it?), increased closet space / an extra bedroom / .5-1 more baths, then you're about to achieve what most people can only dream of having especially in this cramped city.

Also, from a practical, financial fallback you can also always consider selling or renting one of the units should the space ever exceed your needs.

I don't think you can maintain a second kitchen but, as someone else pointed out, you can use it as extra space including a laundry if your building permits. My understanding is that as of the late 90s you don't need the C of O. You might want to combine if you need to sell or you'll be taxed at a higher rate during the sale.

All told, though there are costs associated with the combination upfront for the renovational work and at the tail end when you want to sell, combining is a good move and many have done it in well-established buildings. You're doubling up on your ownership within the same building so just make sure it's a financially sound building.

Much luck.

AJC10, think about the type of stairs too -- spirals save space, but then you have a tough resale to anyone with a toddler -- people who might accept straight stairs that they could gate won't do spirals.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Thanks for the good advice, all! I'm a total novice so I'll take all the tips I can get. I would definitely be sure to have an architect and engineer tell us all about what we are getting into before proceeding. We'd be combining our small 2bedroom+ dining room with the classic five upstairs, making for an office for my work-at-home husband and a mother-in-law suite on the bottom and a family living space on top. Our building isn't particularly special but the location is great (by me, anyway); I'm trying not to worry too much about resale value and hoping that this is the apartment my kids will inherit. That said, I do want to be mindful not to create anything too wacky in case we ever do want to sell.

If I add the price we paid for our apartment in 1998 and the price we would pay this year for the upstairs apartment, it would turn out to be about $480/square foot BEFORE the construction costs associated with breaking through and configuring the space. If I assume that the construction would cost $100,000, that brings us to about $550/square foot. Am I insane, to paraphrase another thread? Are we spending too much? It's true the staircase presents challenges; it's also true that there has never been a vertical conversion in my building (just side by side ones).

I'm very interested in cautionary tales and words of wisdom--I want to be deterred if I should be...Thanks!

I have a question for the group. Why do combinations result in higher maintenance? I've always thought of maintenance on a psf basis. If you combine two 1000 SF apartments, each with maintenance of $1300 (aka $1.30 psf), wouldn't the combined apartment be 2000 SF with a maintenance of $2600 (i.e. the same $1.30 psf)? Thanks.

I've seen 2 side by side studios combine to make an AMAZING 1BR/2BTH. The kitchen n the bedroom apt was made into a walk in closet and the bathroom was extended into the entry hallway area to make room for the steam shower and soaking tub. nice

newbuyer99, it's because developers rarely use a pure square-foot basis when allocating co-op shares or condo PCI.

There're a number of factors at play, but the main one is the relative value of different sizes of apartment at the time the allocation was done.

Generally speaking, three studios in 900 sf will rent or sell for more than one 600 sf one-bedroom and one 300 sf studio. Whether "more" will cover the increased construction cost (six kitchens and baths vs. four) depends on the market at the time. The developer will of course often fail to predict future markets, so you'll see large apartments split up at one period and small ones combined in another.

You could also think of it as each housing unit having a base cost, to which is added a per-room or per-square-foot multiplier. What happens when you start combining those base costs is where maintenance /CCs can get out of whack.

Then you've got to factor in the current perception of what're low/OK/high maintenance/CCs, which varies by size of apartment, location, etc. E.g., you may end up with an "OK" number in a "low" building or an "high" number in an "OK" building.

AJC10, remember to throw in what you'll pay to rent elsewhere for a year or so and two moves, then double the $100K, etc. Then there's your individual stress threshold. On the other hand, the eight-room apartment you want to end up with is hard to find. It is a quandary.

Exactly. Also add to that the fact that you have generally less efficient use of space in a combined apt, so even though on a per-sq-ft basis costs may be equal to an uncombined 2000 sqft apt, there are typically more useful room in an uncombined apt.

Where would you put the staircase, AJC10? And how much of a guarantee can you get from board that it's okay to proceed. Whatever you do, don't put in a spiral. I've seen some nice staircases with a landing in prewar combos (127W82 -combo of 3 apts, they stuck the staircase in the 2 kitchens so the stairwell had windows).

Do you remember 'The 7 Year Itch' with Tom Ewell & Marilyn Monroe? They're in a smallish building, perhaps a brownstone; Ewell lives downstairs & Monroe is subletting upstairs for the summer. She asks, "What's with the stairs, they go nowhere?" & he explains that when the apartments were split, the stairs remained. A bit later, she discovers * VOILA * there's a trap door in the floor upstairs, real handy for this little flirtation. It is a cute movie.

E.g., the unsellable http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/225905-coop-1170-fifth-avenue-carnegie-hill-new-york, which came up on another thread. Not good layouts as simplexes, what with having a bedroom accessible only through the living room. Now the awkwardness has been compounded, so I guess the combo *is* more than the sum of its parts. The whole point of a duplex is having a grand (or at least decorative) staircase, so no point in running it between two walls. If I want to see stairs built with tract-house stock parts I can go to Alpine.

Thanks NWT and nyc10023--but yikes, might it actually take a year to break through? We had figured on 4-5 months for breaking through, constructing a staircase, putting down new hardwood floors on both levels, and painting. (That's 4-5 months of actual work with the contractor, not including the time it takes to get permits, board approval, etc). We don't have a great plan for the staircase yet (though in the kitchen window area is a brilliant idea and could work very well). We've been waiting to make sure we can come to agreement on the the price with our upstairs neighbor before we spend any money on getting architectural drawings and engineer reports. (She's an older lady, would like to leave the city but has no real timeframe for moving). I also have vague hopes that the dumbwaiter shaft would be a good place to put in the staircase, since presumably there is some sort of opening.

As for getting a board guarantee that they'll allow us to proceed, I agree; we'd want it to be as solid as possible. Do people tend to put contingency clauses in contracts that involve combinations? Ideally we would have a contingency allowing us to get our deposit back if the Board doesn't approve a breakthrough of some kind...

Plan on a year. If it turns out 4-5 months, you'll feel lucky and blessed.

Spend some money now on the architect, just to do a walk-through. They've all got plenty of time these days.

I just found your thread - we're thinking of vertically combining two Jr4s in our post-war (~1985) condo. Anybody have any idea what the MINIMUM renovation cost (recognizing that finishes, appliances, etc are a highly personal/variable thing). I'm interested in the whole megillah - cost of architect, contractor, DoB, permits, yada yada. $100K? $200K? More??

Combining apartments tends to make more sense in buildings with low maintenance fees to begin with, but ESPECIALLY in buildings where there were abbe rations in the initial share allocations. Just as an example, take 300 West 23rd Street: the one bedroom units have substantially more shares than the studio units: over twice as much. So if you combine 2 studios into a one bedroom, not only do you end up with a one bedroom with 2 baths (very rare in the neighborhood), you end up with a one bedroom which has low maintenance compared to other one bedroom apartments in the building.

OTOH, take a look at 407 Park Ave South (sorry to pick on you 407PAS): you end up with a small 2 BR with a monthly maintenance near $4,000 - that ain't going nowhere fast.

Can anyone provide the costs of combining? I know a lot depends on the types of kitchen/bathrooms, etc but in general, if you were to combine a 2 bedrm condo with a 1 bedrm condo in a new construction building, how much would that run? We talking in the $50-$75k range or is it more like $150-200k range when you add in lawyer, architect, contractor fees??