Kalahari vs. Northside Piers

Dangerous -- On one hand, I believe that you shouldn't plan on living where you're truly uncomfortable. However, when you're faced with ZERO factual data supporting your fears, it becomes a mental-health issue. It's not just the crime stats. It's also first-, second-, and third-hand personal experiences of personal or apartment crime. Aside from liars like Rufus, does anybody here have these anecdotes for Central or West Harlem? I'm not talking about seeing people who are together enough to willingly participate in drug treatment programs, or even people who buy, sell, or use drugs (which doesn't automatically translate into any impact at all regarding the nonconnected people around them, sorry)...?

In my 8 years in Harlem, I've never been robbed or burglarized. In my 7 years on the Northside of Williamsburgh, I was robbed once ($12 and a pair of non-prescription LeCorbusier-style clear-lensed eyeglass) and burglarized never. Based on that, I'd conclude that the Northside is a bazillion times more dangerous than Harlem, and based on that that I'm not good at basic mathematical concepts.

Schools should always be visited firsthand (and with a careful plan as to what to look for and how to interpret what you see and hear), even the ones that your peers assume are bad. Internets research is not enough.

bwj2103,

Is that the best you got?

Totally agree with alanhart about safety issues. What ultimately matters is how you feel about living in the neighborhood. If you're not going to be comfortable, I don't care what kind of "deal" you're getting - it's not worth it to live that way. And I would never go by what people on an internet message board are saying to determine that.

bjw2103, you partially agree with me, and on the smaller part. My main point is that personal growth is important, and people should stretch their comfort/discomfort levels when all true facts point them in the opposite direction.

In this post, Harlem is being compared to Williamsburg, not to Chelsea, the Upper West Side, or Carnegie Hill. So, in terms or safety and ambience, neither Williamsburg nor Harlem are at the top of the list. They each have their problems. I feel Harlem is the better investment in the long run. Williamsburg doesn't have the infrastructure for much more growth. But it really just depends on your preferences.

alanhart, you're right, I was not at all clear - I do think people should look beyond stats and unfounded statements. If I went by pterozitz' statements, I would have made a pretty big mistake. Nothing beats getting to know a neighborhood yourself.

Anyway, we still haven't heard the original poster's priorities for a home, so he probably hasn't organized his thoughts on that underlying matter. The correct answer, then, is probably for him to buy neither apartment.

I work uptown, and lived and owned downtown for many years. I recently decided to rent at the Kalahari to see whether I like living in Harlem enough to buy there. Although the construction quality at the Kalahari is nice enough (which is not to say that the builders haven't cut a lot of construction corners) I wouldn't be inclined to buy there. The main and for me decisive reason is the lack of amenities I have come to take for granted during my 25 years in the city, where I've lived downtown and on the upper West Side: quality grocery shopping, cafes and restaurants, bookstores, clothing stores, etc. Although 116th Street and Lenox is a public transportation hub, I prefer and often need to take taxis. About an hour ago I tried to hail a yellow cab from the corner of 116th Street and Lenox. I am a middle-aged and obviously middle class man of color. It took me 30 minutes before a yellow cab would stop to pick me up. I counted 6 cabs that were empty but had their off-duty lights on. By the time I finally got a cab to pick me up I was furious. My experience may strike some of you as trivial, but it introduces a level of stress into one's daily routine which is not sustainable over the long term. I intend to enjoy my time renting at the Kalahari, but I've already concluded that I probably won't renew my lease.

> Maybe you two should get a room?

Classic bjw... when proven wrong, go personal!

Cherrywood, you need to know a very simple thing: take gypsy cabs in Harlem (just as you would in the boroughs.) Its a MILLION times easier to get a cab in Harlem if you include gypsy cabs than it was when I lived in FiDi, and than when I would visit my brother in Brooklyn. You just need to have a firm price BEFORE they drive away, but they always charge the same as a regular cab would. Just hold up your arm to the passing sedans and miraculously you have a cab in 15 seconds. And BTW, I have lived in Harlem for two years and its never taken me that long to find yellow cabs if I need to pay with a credit card, so you certainly have an odd experience in my mind.

Back to the crime issue - someone brought tup Chelsea, and I ONLY know of two people in NYC who have been crime victims, and both lived in Chelsea (one mugged and one burglarized.) However, crime stats are all we have to go on, and Harlem USED to be much more dangerous than the rest of Manhattan, but has not been for many years.

As for why I think its retarded to say that quiet, empty streets make one feel unsafe, I bring up BPC - the ABSOLUTE lowest crime area in the entire 5 borough city by a SIGNIFICANT margin. And its across the street from projects.

"you might find this amusing: http://www.forgotten-ny.com/TROLLEYS/canarsie/canarsie.html
Apparently, Canarsie was the butt of many a schlocky comic's joke, so if that's where you're from you'll find a few people on SE unsurprised. Not mutombonyc, though."

Alan... very interesting. I never got the full story. God, that bus fence brings back memories.

Canarsie was basically rebuilt in the 60/70s. 90% of the housing stock I remember was built in that time period... some small houses left over, but in tiny sections. The majority of it was standard brick multi-family. Mostly Italian and Jewish... then came the blockbusting. Last time I drove through, it was 99.9% black.

this is another anecdotal evidence (omg! this reminds me of the nyt crappy articles) last week a cab driver told me he doesn't take color clients (neither men nor women) in the area. i asked why and he said he had many problems... i didn't get what problems he had. after asking again he said, "with the pay". it might be just an excuse.

nyc10022,

bjw2103, softly went personal, it was yet again, a sorry attempt on his part.

nyc10022, it's just a little ribbing, and considering the words that come from you, didn't think you'd take it so personally. It is amusing to see you and mutombo try to set up this dinner date via Streeteasy though. I wish you two the best of luck.

nyc10022,

Could not have said it any better and I have to quote it.

"Classic bjw... when proven wrong, go personal!"

1. "hold up your arm to the passing sedans"??? Are you kidding? They honk at you and stop in your way whenever you're simply trying to cross the street. Gypsy cabs are part of the atmosphere there. I wish they'd go away and leave me alone.

2. "However, crime stats are all we have to go on" . . . NO, we also have 1st, 2nd, and 3rd hand anecdotes. As in "I was mugged," or "my friend was mugged," or "his friend was mugged". These are not the sorts of things that people are shy about telling and repeating. On the other hand, "I heard people get mugged there a lot" or "I saw shady looking characters who look like muggers" . . . useless.

This is about personal comfort level, and if people are, realistically not going to feel comfortable on empty streets (many won't), which is how some have described Kalahari area, that is a perfectly legitimate view point. The idea that it is unusual or irrational to not feel comfortable on empty streets at night is ridiculous. Also, again, if there is no one around it is also boring, no fun. This is personal.

As to Harlem being a better long term investment, I suspect that long term Harlem may be a better, more popular, more expensive place to live than Wmburg....but that does NOT necessarily mean it is a better nvestment today because there are two variables here, the current relative prices. and how long it takes for Harlem to truly be transformed (the longer it takes, the worse the investment return.

BPC is quiet and boring...and people feel safe..but it is obviously a unique case because of its isolation.

I am familiar with the Kalahari and never felt the street was empty, esp. if you head toward Lenox. You have the Harlem Market and the Sea Food place. There is less traffic as you head toward 5th Avenue, which is prob. due to a lack of open retail space on that block.

I meant empty at NIGHT. All the businesses you mention are closed at like 10PM every night of the week except Amy Ruth's. Not at all like say 96th and Broadway or 23rd and 8th.

As for BPC being empty yet safe...its MORE densly populated than the part of Harlem we are speaking of. Why is BPC being empty at night safe but 116th and Lennox dangerous when empty?

As a female, I don't think any place that's empty is safe. It's a question of how early the area empties out. Like I have friends who live on 57th and First Ave. There used to be a club across the street, so there were people around in the wee hours and I'd walk several blocks to find a cab. Now the club is closed and so if it's late, I'll ask my friends' doorman to hail the cab.

I seriously doubt if people feel as safe walking down the street at midnight in Harlem as they do in BPC, and I seriously doubt if it is all mental,because I personally don't buy the argument that Harlem is as safe as anywhere in NYC. I think most New Yorkers probably agree with me. Perhaps you disagree, and perhaps I am wrong about the relative safety, and what most New Yorkers feel, but if I am right it should affect real estate values. I think the view that Harlem is as safe as any place in the city will be viewed skeptically by most, but everyone is welcome to their opinion.

Sometimes streets are empty at night because people don't feel safe going out....but it depends on the hood.

They're also empty at night, or emptier, compared to "nicer" areas, because they're not lined with restaurants and bars and 24-hour green grocers, and this is the case because there isn't a big enough customer base yet. It all goes back to what someone said earlier: The main drawback to the area around Kalahari is the lack of amenities--restaurants and such.

"nyc10022, it's just a little ribbing, and considering the words that come from you, didn't think you'd take it so personally."

I didn't take it personally... I just didn't want to miss yet another opportunity to point out your blatant hypocrisy.

You're just making it waaaaay too easy.

nyc10022,

We are on bjw's hit list. Did I give it to him?

Why is it that everyone who LIVES in Harlem thinks its safe, as the statistics clearly bear, whereas you who does not, do not? I have lived in FiDi, where I felt safer, and Hells Kitchen, where i felt less safe, and now Harlem, which is right in the middle. And as if by magic, this is what the crime stats suggest I SHOULD feel.

"Most New Yorkers" do not live or work in Harlem, and have not spent anywhere near enough time there to have anything to base their "feeling" on. I "feel" like I might be in danger if I went to Israel, but in fact am far more likely to be murdered in any neighborhood in NYC (or in Beverly Hills for that matter) than I am to be killed by terrorists on a Jerusalem vacation. I "feel" jittery when flying, but my brain tells me its far safer than driving.

jason, it reminds me of that scene in the original Hairspray movie when Mrs. Pingleton is spooked by everybody and everything she sees in the negro part of Baltimore -- including the negro police officer in the cruiser she runs to for safety (from nothing at all).

My son went to Stuyvesant (BPC) and was mugged at least once each semester except for his last semester. Losses include phones, ipods etc, but he was not hurt.
Locations were the bridge at the school, entrance to the subway, walk to the subway etc. So I rate BPC as not a particularly safe place. The perps were typically from Brooklyn or in one case an escaped con from an upstate NY facility. They were caught most of the time.

Harlem: my son and daughter do community work there. SOn has been hassled once but not mugged at 125th and Amsterdam next to the project. Daughter has been hassled around 106th but that is about all. I have seen many unsavory things (1 rape -- averted, active pooping on the sidewalk etc) but have never been hassled or mugged -- but have only been there in daytime.

Still, the general atmosphere of BPC comes across as more pleasant than in many blocks in Harlem. On the other hand, people will talk to you in Harlem and they wont in BPC. I have never been to W'burg so can't comment.
As jason notes, the key issue is the lack of amenities and the general grunge in Harlem vs other areas. I am sure if you make an ostentatious display of objects you have you stand a good chance of being mugged anywhere.
at this point whicehever one you choose be sure that it is a sharp discount over UWS and other areas, else it is not worth it
Appreciated the comments from the current Kalahari dwellers. I think the discount over say the Morningside Heights area would have to be 30-40% to live in most parts of Harlem including Kalahari. It is not at this point.

> We are on bjw's hit list. Did I give it to him?

Well done. Like perfitz, if you're on his list, you probably did something right.

"My son went to Stuyvesant (BPC) and was mugged at least once each semester except for his last semester. Losses include phones, ipods etc, but he was not hurt. "

Lets also not confuse kids bugging other kids with real crime. Bullying can stink for kids, but I wouldn't exactly put it into the crime statistics.

joedavis is absolutely right about the discount question. Absent a steep discount I would find it hard to justify living in Harlem. BTW, jd, have you noticed that Windows on 123 has finally listed a couple of units (although the broker curiously doesn't say which)?

Yes guys, I have a "list." Nice sleuthing.

Yes, bjw2103, stop being a hypocrite.

"but have heard mostly good things about the schools here."

NYTimes did an article recently about the problem with Williamsburg being no good schools for the kids... with local parents trying to start some.

The DOE stats basically say the same thing.... not a great neighborhood for schools.

I know the schools of W'burg and this is no lie.

joedavis: "My son went to Stuyvesant (BPC) and was mugged at least once each semester"

That's very interesting, because I went to Stuy when it was at 15th & 1st, and for years and years the asshole asst. principal tried to relocate the school far far away from the dangerous East Village, even declining to get in on a Union Square redev like the Zeckendorf building where S. Klein used to be. He also wanted to lock the kids in the school at lunch time, which was (fortunately) illegal due to inadequate cafeteria space.

The thing is, virtually no students ever got mugged, either hard by Stuy or when we cut afternoon classes and went to Veselka, a coffee shop at 7th & A. One time the principal made an announcement to watch out for "Roman youths" in the neighborhood, but Stuy offered Latin, so we were okeh with that possibility.

So Battery Park City High offers muggings? Very interesting.

nyc10022 -- In all cases, police reports were filed and perps were arrested in all cases but 1. In every case none of the perps was a Stuy student. In one case it was a group from BMCC, one case the escaped con, and in all other cases gang kids from Brooklyn. My son's experience was not unique by any means. I went to at least two meetings at the school where a bunch of parents were upset over the level of security around the school. We saw the football parents every weekend in season, and many reported similar stories.
One of the times when my son's phone was taken, the perp through another phone at him. We went through the calls made on the phone and located the "Mom". The phone belonged to another Stuy student who had received similar treatment earlier in the week. We checked the other numbers and traced the calls to the jail upstate NY. This was tracked by the police and led to the arrest of the escaped con.
What an opportunity for street education.

"Veselka, a coffee shop at 7th & A"

alanhart, I think you mean the long-departed Leshko's (replaced by Luca). I used to buy bags of frozen pierogi there until I found a hair in one.

Veselka's still going strong at 2nd Ave and 9th St. My last omelette there was terrible, but I have fond memories of the pancakes with raspberry sauce.

Pardon the interruption.

I don't doubt the problems at that HS in BPC, which I guess is the one at the end of the path along the river....but this is adiscussion is about relative safety of areas, and where people feel comfortable, and I think any yuppie type (paranoid about a "threatening" looking person) would feel very comfortable at night in BPC (much more so than what I've read ON SE about Harlem).If that high school is where I think it is,I don't think people would be walking by there too much late at night because it is on the fringe (I might be wrong on the location), not really between apartment buildings.

Yes, thanks tenemental -- I definitely meant Leshko's. Veselka is dead to me because they put huge plateglass windows along the whole long side, contributing a lot toward ruining the ambience. The no-smoking contribution, though, I'm not complaining about. They also have a bad habit of serving eggcreams with a straw. I forgot which of the two places had a handwritten sign in the bathroom that said "This Is Not A Shooting Gallery."

OP, once again, what are your priorities in a place to live?

"nyc10022 -- In all cases, police reports were filed and perps were arrested in all cases but 1. In every case none of the perps was a Stuy student. In one case it was a group from BMCC, one case the escaped con, and in all other cases gang kids from Brooklyn. "

"Gang kids from Brooklyn" = kids from the other high schools.

Again, in my day we just called this bullying.

""Veselka, a coffee shop at 7th & A"

alanhart, I think you mean the long-departed Leshko's (replaced by Luca). I used to buy bags of frozen pierogi there until I found a hair in one."

Actually, I think he's describing Odessa... still there.

We went to Dibella for sandwiches... or Mariella for pizza.

Amazingly, there was no burger king / mcds anywhere to be seen....

hi everybody! Great input from all of you, just wanted to update what we found in williamsburg on a rainy monday night.
Well, it seemed quite safe form the station (L) on bedford up until Kent ave if you walk on 7th street. Hipsters were still around at 10pm.
But Kent ave from 7th until northside piers was quite empty , just some cars passing by very fast !. That may change when the edge and northside piers stores open in the future. other than that it was a nice walk where restaurants and bars and even some cafes were open and busy. It somewhat reminded us a small holiday/beach town, people seemed relaxed, not so much in rush. hmmm

No, it was Leshko's, not Odessa. DiBella's was phenomenal, both under the DiBella brothers and "Jason & Susie". What I wouldn't do for a Stuyvesant Special today.

I thought you went to the BPC location, Eddie. No?

simi, I'm having trouble picturing a quite empty street with open and busy cafes.

alanhart, only Kent ave was empty from 7th to northside piers. 7th st and bedford was busy.

"Actually, I think he's describing Odessa... still there."

Leshko's was at the corner of 7th and A. Odessa is now two places, the original location is now the café, with a more recent Odessa restaurant next door, on A between 7th and St. Marks.

Alanhart, Veselka's stuffed cabagge with mushroom gravy and beet salad tastes still the same...each time I go to NY I confirm this...No doubt it looked better when you went to the back room through a little corridor and the "frescos" were less conspicuous...

I love Harlem. I visited Williamsburg and didn't capture my imagination, an architectural no-place.

I am a bit lost when it comes to it's different sections. Today I visited 5th and 128 and felt totally ok, though I rather be closer to Mt Morris Park West, below 125th. I see prices going down more noticeable above 132, and in Sugar Hill. Any preferred sections above 125 to recommend"?

mimi buildings in harlem are beautiful other than projects, but I think wburg is going to be full of new and modern looking buildings, so a totally different environment.

Simi,

You are right. They are totally different environments. It just depends on your preference.

"NYTimes did an article recently about the problem with Williamsburg being no good schools for the kids... with local parents trying to start some.
The DOE stats basically say the same thing.... not a great neighborhood for schools."

nyc10022, this wouldn't come off as merely a spiteful post if you had posted a link or at least a shred of specific info, instead of insipid generalities that seem pretty unfounded.

Here's some actual data on the schools:

"On last year’s progress report for Public School 17, on North Fifth Street, 62.5 percent of fourth graders were proficient in English, 90.6 percent in math, versus 61.3 and 79.7 percent citywide. Those numbers earned the school an A.

At Conselyea Preparatory School, a junior high on North Fifth Street, 78.4 percent of eighth graders were proficient in math and 59.2 percent in English; the citywide scores were 59.6 and 43. Conselyea, too, got an A."

(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/realestate/21livi.html)

More info:
Northside Preschool - http://www.willnorth.org/

More links:

PS 17 - http://insideschools.org/index12.php?fso=400
PS 132 - http://insideschools.org/index12.php?fs=636
ps132andyou.net
PS 84 - http://insideschools.org/index12.php?fso=411

"But Kent ave from 7th until northside piers was quite empty , just some cars passing by very fast !. That may change when the edge and northside piers stores open in the future. other than that it was a nice walk where restaurants and bars and even some cafes were open and busy."

simi, glad you went out and saw it for yourself - beats what anyone (myself included) may tell you on here. That walk down North 7th to the water is great, and I'd recommend you do it again when it's warmer and sunny out. There's a lot there - Sunac (great though expensive organic food market), Beehive Salon, dba bar (which will have great patio seating when it warms up), that Bikram yoga place, DOC Wine bar, and Williamsburg Cafe (which is huge). You're totally right about Kent itself; it's pretty empty right now, and though they envision it as a pretty extensive retail strip, I think that'll take more than a few years to really materialize.

"You're totally right about Kent itself; it's pretty empty right now, and though they envision it as a pretty extensive retail strip, I think that'll take more than a few years to really materialize."

Like half an economic cycle, if ever.

Mimi, I sent you an email.

I think the number one advantage of Nside Piers is that the area is quiet...which has a psychological value that New Yorkers underestimate or ignore as a defensive mechanism because most of manhattan is so very very noisy (I often have people tell me their street is quiet, and I just laugh to myself; I lived in London which has truly quiet neighborhoods because much of it is lowrise..and little in nyc compares). It is on the water, not next to some big avenue (quasi highway) like everything almost in Manhattan. That's why I may end up in that area some day...but for me the main drawback is that I like to walk a lot, and I'd hate to have to always take the subway everyday or a taxi..but I haven't yet tried walking across the bridge from there (quite a hike,,but I like to walk).

jimstreeteasy, those are good qualities in a country house. After a short time of actually living it, you start to feel like you're on the outside looking in, so close to the excitement and yet so far. At least that's how I felt when I lived there.

And I'm reminded that in the 1950s and even 60s, people moving to the burbs said and felt that they were moving to "the country." Lucy and Ricky did, anyway. Proof positive.

Country? ..Wmburg? -- to the extent it is quiet by the water -- is more like an abandoned industrial site after a neutron bomb went off. It needs some greenery.

alanhart, I know you lived there for 7 years, but when was that? I think the neighborhood has come a long way. As a current resident, I really never feel that the "excitement" is far away. Sure, everyone's got their preferences, and I like to spend time in Manhattan too, but there's more than enough going on in the immediate area that it never feels like anything but the city. Art, music, bars, cafes, restaurants, etc.

jimstreeteasy, I feel the same way. Who is responsible for wburg? It can definitely use some more cleaning , nice sidewalks, and greenery and flowers. It has so much potential being by the water, water access is so rare in manhattan. It amazes me how 5th ave and park are, uws, ues are clean and green in manhattan so it can be done. What is that markovitz guy doing? nothing.

simi, you have to keep in mind that Williamsburg was long neglected as a residential area, and much of the change has really taken shape in the past 10 years. If that momentum holds (and I think it will), the area will only get better. I've noticed that they're actually planting trees in front of a lot of these newer buildings, and with the new pier, improvements to the East River park and Grand St park, I think the green areas are on their way. I don't think Markowitz is to blame here; rather, this is the nature of the beast. These things take time.

"simi, you have to keep in mind that Williamsburg was long neglected as a residential area, and much of the change has really taken shape in the past 10 years. If that momentum holds (and I think it will), the area will only get better."

Ditto verbatim for Harlem. And probably LIC, Fidi... your point?

"Ditto verbatim for Harlem. And probably LIC, Fidi... your point?"

Definitely true for the above as well. Read simi's questions though - he/she was asking about the improvements in comparison to places like 5th, Park, the UWS.

I must jump in here, as someone who has closely monitered the development of Wburg.

I don't wish to mention any particular names, developers have found Wburg to be a hard area to develop/change, because of the prominent presence of a particular group of residents who resist change in general. This has been true, even though most of the developers share the same cultural/religious/ethnic group membership with those "difficult" locals.

Thus, sure, the development/change WILL happen in Wburg, yes, but it is going to be slow, difficult, somewhat disjointed, and less "wholistic."

why would not those difficult locals want cleaner and greener streets and a better place to live? I am sure what those difficult locals are against are developers taking advantage of them. if wburg is a residential area what are those warehouse buildings doing there, abandoned. If they don't want to demolish them why not have a plan to convert them to other uses like entertainment venues, art spaces,schools, etc public or private. It seems to me that there is no urgency for city planning for wburg. Beautiful waterfront full of crap. There is no public outcry to really improve the quality of life.

vanderveen,

I assume you're referring (at least in part) to the "Finger" building and similar issues. I think we're talking about two different things here though, as simi is getting at. Yes, there are residents who are staunchly opposed to certain kinds of development and changes in neighborhood character, and yes, there are several developers who are quite respectful of these needs, but I think there's an overwhelming majority of residents who welcome improvements for cleaner streets, green space, and general upkeep. I also think the newer residents are pushing for this in a much more proactive fashion, which is why there's still a ways to go.

simi,

As I said, it takes a lot of time and money to repurpose (or rebuild over) the more industrial sites. A lot of that has already happened, but especially as you get towards the Greenpoint border, there's still plenty of work to be done. We're starting to see some of that there, with the Brooklyn Bowl ready to open next month at North 12th and Wythe, and the recent opening of the gallery on North 14th. I think the waterfront will only start to take off once the Edge, 111 Kent, and second NSP tower start to fill up, which is why I wouldn't rush a purchase there if you're not particularly patient.

"I don't wish to mention any particular names, developers have found Wburg to be a hard area to develop/change, because of the prominent presence of a particular group of residents who resist change in general. This has been true, even though most of the developers share the same cultural/religious/ethnic group membership with those "difficult" locals."

Again, also true of Harlem. Was true back in SF when I lived there. It baffles me why people would want EMPTY LOTS and abondoned buidlings (as both Wburg and Harlem have) rather than new residents, especially when so many are set aside for low income etc.

jason10006,

I don't want to see empty lots with grass the height of a 1 story bldg with derelict autos and abandoned bldgs with all types of illegal activities going on in them as we did in the early 1990's and prior. I don't want to see neighborhoods filled with new bldgs that are empty. To me the early 90s and prior is in effect but taking place in a different form. Most HOODS in NYC looked like this not just Harlem. Greed is a MF'er.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU1z5SGMdQE

I can't understand how we always have such a low vacancy rate in NYC , a housing "shortage" as defined by rent control laws for SIXTY years, yet still vacant lots in Harlem, some literally on top of express subway stops.

jason,

The vacancy rate in NYC is far from low. "Shortage" LOL. Ppl have a way of manipulating words. Did you see the video?

Can't watch it at work. NYC vacany is definitely low compared to any other large U.S. city and by a long shot. Even compared to other dense cities like Boston, SF, etc. And has been for decades. But I will watch the video at home.

jason,

OK, the vid brings back memories and it shows how we have grown as a city and ppl.

mutombonyc, that video is incredible.

Where's lowery?

tenemental,

That video is incredible in displaying how we have grown as a city and ppl.

Lowery?

I just think it's an extraordinary historical document, with a great song to boot. And yes, it's of course a benchmark from which to demonstrate progress.

lowery is a poster here who shares my fascination w/ urban decay.

Across 110th Street.

The video is excellent..."Across 110th Street" is a very neglected classic that should be played more often. But while Harlem might be one of the most extreme examples, those of you who were not in NYC in the 1980s should know:
-West 17th between 8th and 9th was a drive through drug market
-Cocaine was sold openly on specific blocks in the West 80s (I'm not remembering if it was 84th, 87th or 88th)
-The south eastern edge of Murray Hill bordering Madison Square and Herald Square were overrun with welfare hotels that housed every social pathology imaginable and a few yet to be documented.
-The phone company and Con Edison did not send out repair service personnel alone due to the high rate of violence/harrassement their employees encoutnered.
-When I worked at 1515 Broadway in Times Square (today's MTV buidling), the office closed at 4:45 during the winter so we could leave before it was truly dark outside.
-Racial and ethnic tension was a fact of life that accompanied you every time you walked down the street or took the subway

Yes we have come a LONG way. And while I'm generally firmly against the evolution to Disney By The Hudson, there is a lot about the old New York I DON'T miss.
But it might be nice to have a few of those bulletproof plastic fronted "smoke shops" with no visible inventory around (yes, even the West Village had them). Can't find weed anwhere these days.

lizyank,

This is before my time but do you remember when loose joints were sold on the streets of NYC.

Loose Joints - Its All Over My Face (A Paradise Garage or Garage Classic).

LOL

Absolutely, loose joints were the particular speciality of Washington Sq Park. Unforunately, most of those loose joints were generally "doo doo" versus more substantial weed available to those able to afford a nickle or dime bag (or better yet...chip in on an oz).
Btw, Mutombonyc, did you ever visit the Paradise Garage or Garage? I don't remember the Garage too well but I seem to recall the Paradise Garage was predominantly a gay roller disco. Then again, things got VERY confused in those days...between drug hazes and androugous fashions who knew??

Why buy a LJ when you could get a envelope of Pineapple Express for $5 LOL. The PG was before my time. What I heard of the PG was Fri nite was straight nite and Sat nite was gay nite but Fri nite was a mixture of gay and straight and the two partied in harmony. It was not a roller disco it was just a disco LOL.

Most clubs in the 70s and early 80s were somewhat mixed gay and straight. The early years of the AIDS epidemic tended to fray some of the ties because of ignorance, fear and the homophobia that was allowed to incubate in that soil. Fortunately, I believe we are past that from a health and human rights point of view but alas I can no longer comment on clubs.

lizyank,

Those were the days when NYC was'nt so PRIME and did not have a billionaire mayor who professed not to be a politician.

I love an "Is it all over my face" mention. An Arthur Russell written classic.

"I'm in love dancin'." Yes. You can say what you want about the epoch of the Garage and Crisco Disco, but NYC was alive then in a way that now seems a distant memory.

"NYC was alive then in a way that now seems a distant memory"

feeling wistful

Cherrywood,

You forgot The Loft, which kind of put SOHO on the map.

JK,

Did Arthur Russell, write "Go Bang"?

is this thread meandering?....

jim,

Can't relate so he deviates. It all ties into one another.

Yes he wrote "Go Bang" as well which is just as good. You should rent the doc on him called Wild Combination. It's pretty great. Very interesting picture of late 70's/early 80's NYC.

That video tells only half the story. I have seen all those photographs before...however the origianl website shows ALL of those spots then and now, in order to show you how much nicer Harlem is now than it was then. I do think THAT version is useful for when people in these and other real estate boards say Harlem was and always will be a sh** hole...it was SOOOO much worse then.

Which brings me to people who long for the old New York of the 70s...I fear for such people's sanity. Not only was Harlem a place I would never dare visit in broad dayligtht let alone LIVE back then, but as others have said, other, now perfectly safe parts of the city, like broad stretches of the UWS, Chelsea, Hells Kitchen, etc were scarier than the worst parts of South Central LA at night.

Plus all the AIDs, recessions, oil price spikes, NYC nearly going bankrupt a few times, garbabe strikes, etc...my god I would NOT trade ANY of that for what we have now just to have a few more vibrant dance clubs.

jason,

This is well put. A lot of newbies (such as bjw2103) don't know the history of NYC. Alicia Keys said growing up in Hell's Kitchen was grimey, she saw pimps, prostitutes*, drug addicts and lots of needles. I don't want to return to those days I'm glad I don't see blood on the floor from someone who were shot and killed.

jason, you'll have to excuse mutombo; he gets all riled up just thinking about me, which apparently is way too frequently.

Harlem was indeed in really rough shape, but it definitely wasn't alone - it's fairly incredible how many neighborhoods are considered gentrified now vs then. BTW, weren't those photos taken from a Wired NY thread? I think jason is right, the before and after photos were striking.

bjw2103,

Just quoted/paraphrased me "Harlem was indeed in really rough shape, but it definitely wasn't alone - it's fairly incredible how many neighborhoods are considered gentrified now vs then. BTW, weren't those photos taken from a Wired NY thread? I think jason is right, the before and after photos were striking."

mutombo, I definitely did not quote you, nor did I paraphrase you.

bjw2103,

Your are a liar and the blood of jesus be against you.

Nice! As a Jew, I've been told that one before. Never by Dikembe himself though. Especially on Easter weekend!

Jason10006, I stand by my memories. After all, it's not as though the New York of 2009 knows nothing about AIDS or recessions. Times were hard in the city during the late 70s and early 80s, but that's not all they were. Moreover, it wasn't just the clubs. It was a period of extraordinary theater, dance, music and art and the literary scene was rich with writers whose work will endure. And danger? I remember walking on early Sunday morning from a club in Times Square all the way up to 163rd Street, where I shared a little railroad flat with friends, just in time to change clothes and hop on the train to make it to the 10:45 a.m. service at Canaan Baptist Church. Would I trade (relatively) clean streets and a semi-gentrified Harlem for the 70s and 80s? Not necessarily. But I don't need to demonize those years either.

bjw2103,

You nasal sourpuss.

cherrywood,

Well put.

bjw2103,

Do you eat at Gottlieb's on Roebling & Division?