Successful Lowballs

that's not a lowball. YAWN.

I know your topis, NB99, was intended to draw out successful low offers, but it brings to mind something I have been noticing with major reductions in asking price. It seems that many of the significant price cuts come after a change of the listing broker. If Broker A has had the listing for six months at, say, $2.3, and Broker B gets the listing thereafter and persuades seller to drop to $1.8, the sale that results is just from chopping the price, not from superior service or acumen, wouldn't you say? Yet I have noticed this over and over. It seems a bit unfair to Broker A. Or should Broker B be lauded because he or she was able to persuade the sellers that they were not pricing rationally?

Sorry -- should have been "topic"

newbuyer99.....think you caught a big fish?

enter your catch in the tournament.

No, I don't think I caught anything. I like your idea of the competition, but I would also, separately, like to keep track of as many successful lowballs as people are willing to contribute.

I think that is a pretty poor example if you look at the time period, the price history, the final difference, and the economy and the market over the period in question.

newbuyer99, the 19% is pretty good. In the last 30 days, only a couple that'd match it. Most of the last-asking-to-sale differences (I'm forgetting the term for it) seem to around 10%.

The winner for the last month of recorded co-op sales where SE had a match to an asking price was 30%, at http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/168321-coop-14-east-75th-street-upper-east-side-new-york:

01/23/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $6,750,000.
06/13/2008 Price decreased by 10% to $6,100,000.
10/18/2008 Price decreased by 4% to $5,850,000.
02/27/2009 Listing entered contract.
06/16/2009 Sale recorded for $4,500,000.

ootin, a lowball's a lowball. No fun if hedged around with too many caveats.

Remember, the question is not whether the asking should've been what it was. It's the buyer seeing past the asking.

490 wea 9B

Yeah, that 25% would be right up there. Right now a 30-day query gets you 200 sales, so can dump to xls without adding price criteria, while a 60-day gets you 500-something, too many to futz with.

Riley
about 13 hours ago
ignore this person
I know your topis, NB99, was intended to draw out successful low offers, but it brings to mind something I have been noticing with major reductions in asking price. It seems that many of the significant price cuts come after a change of the listing broker. If Broker A has had the listing for six months at, say, $2.3, and Broker B gets the listing thereafter and persuades seller to drop to $1.8, the sale that results is just from chopping the price, not from superior service or acumen, wouldn't you say? Yet I have noticed this over and over. It seems a bit unfair to Broker A. Or should Broker B be lauded because he or she was able to persuade the sellers that they were not pricing rationally?

No sympathy for broker A at all, and not just because of a general distaste for most brokers. Broker A probably only got the listing because he convinced the seller he could get a higher price than was realistic, and the seller foolishly chose him over other brokers who would have listed lower. Broker A may have been delusional, or more likely knew it was bullshit but figured he could get the seller to drop the price later after locking in an exclusive. Broker B's probably one of the more sensible brokers that the seller passed on in the first round of interviews.

Doug Heddings had a blog post about much preferring to be Broker B a while back.

How about this one?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/365387-condo-25-columbus-circle-lincoln-square-new-york

11/13/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Brown Harris Stevens at $65,000,000.
03/30/2009 Price decreased by 25% to $49,000,000.
05/05/2009 Listing is no longer available.
06/16/2009 Listing sold.
06/16/2009 Sale recorded for $37,500,000.

OnTheMove, that 23.5% ranks #2 among condos in the last 30 days. Barely beating it at 24.1% was http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/412706-condo-340-east-23rd-street-gramercy-park-new-york.

55 W 95th Street #PHE
07/21/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Shares of New York at $1,495,000.
01/05/2009 Price decreased by 20% to $1,199,275.
01/22/2009 Price decreased by 8% to $1,099,417.
06/29/2009 Sale recorded for $865,000.
21.3% off final ask. 42.1% off original ask.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/320288-coop-55-w-95th-st-upper-west-side-new-york

5% Below 2005 closing, 35% off of original ask (which was ridiculous). Looks like the owner bought in 2005 and put some work into it as well...

30 Fifth Avenue, 10H
03/23/2005 Previous Sale recorded for $685,000.
05/06/2008 Previously Listed in StreetEasy by Stribling at $995,000.
01/01/2009 Stribling Listing is no longer available. Last priced at $775,000.
01/08/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $749,000.
03/03/2009 Price decreased by 7% to $699,000.
03/19/2009 Listing entered contract.
05/28/2009 Listing sold.
05/28/2009 Sale recorded for $650,000.
06/17/2009 Listing sold.

Thanks, Tenemental, for the useful insights.

320 West 86th Street #8A/#8B.
11/04/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Halstead Property at $3,495,000.
01/22/2009 Price decreased by 6% to $3,295,000.
05/19/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/06/2009 Sales recorded for $2,525,000. ($1,100,000 + $1,425,000)
Hoping liquidpaper will opine on this one. It's right up Liquidpaper Alley.

I am pretty sure 55 W 95th Street #PHE is an investor unit.
They tend to be more negotiatible.

Two successful lowball closings at Riverhouse:

#18F: (1br, 2ba)
09/16/2006 Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $1,300,000.
10/13/2008 Delisted temporarily.
12/07/2008 Re-listed by Corcoran.
04/17/2009 Listing is no longer available.
05/13/2009 Listing entered contract.
06/26/2009 Listing sold for $999,000 -23.1%
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/47383-condo-1-river-terrace-battery-park-city-new-york

#18F (3br, 3ba)
09/09/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $2,890,000.
12/03/2008 Delisted temporarily.
05/28/2009 Price decreased by 10% to $2,590,000.
05/28/2009 Listing entered contract.
06/25/2009 Listing sold.
06/25/2009 Sale recorded for $$2,050,000 -20.9%

Does not bode well for the would-be flipper of #6K in the same building if the developer is accepting 20%+ off prices.

09/16/2006 Previously Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $815,000.
10/02/2008 Corcoran Listing sold.
10/02/2008 Previous Sale recorded for $815,000
10/23/2008 Listed in StreetEasy, but no longer available, by Prudential Elliman at $939,000.
03/02/2009 Re-listed by Prudential Elliman.
03/02/2009 Price decreased by 7% to $875,000.
03/24/2009 Price decreased by 3% to $850,000.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/359550-condo-1-river-terr-battery-park-city-new-york

But maybe the prospect of claiming Leonardo DiCaprio, Tyra Banks, and David Gahan (Depeche Mode) as neighbors will reel in a bid.

236 East 47th. 18% lowball off much reduced ask. This was listed as a combination but hit ACRIS as 2 closings, so add the D and E prices to compare to the ask.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/236-east-47-street-new_york
06/29/2009 #27D $240,000 -
06/29/2009 #27E $825,000 -
05/18/2009 #27E - $1,295,000 ↓

236 east 47 27DE is a very tough sell. The combined cc/taxes are over $3,000. That is a serious issue on a 2br 2bath. I would say given the market the broker did a fairly decent job and the buyer paid market price.

haha low balls

In This Building
11 East 86th Street more »
New York, NY 10028

Sales listings: 3 active and 5 previous
Local Schools
Schools zoned for this address:
JHS 167 Robert F Wagner (6-8)
PS 6 Lillie D. Blake (K-5)

StreetEasy History
09/05/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Brown Harris Stevens at $1,999,000.
10/10/2008 Price decreased by 5% to $1,895,000.
11/14/2008 Price decreased by 5% to $1,795,000.
02/04/2009 Price decreased by 6% to $1,695,000.
03/03/2009 Price decreased by 12% to $1,500,000.
03/14/2009 Listing entered contract.
06/04/2009 Sale recorded for $1,200,000.
06/09/2009 Listing is no longer available.

Another fine example of chasing the market down. Nice find, UES.

35 East 20th #8: This 4,000 square foot Flatiron penthouse may be a bit over-the-top, but the cuts and eventual closing price are eye-catching.
07/22/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $4,995,000.
10/03/2008 Price decreased by 11% to $4,445,000.
12/12/2008 Price decreased by 19% to $3,595,000.
05/16/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/08/2009 Sale recorded for $3,000,000.

haha low ballz...

keep it up shrimpie... .how pathetic are you to require multiple personalities to take on just little ole me?

Don't forget to be at the open house later tonite... your parents would be proud! 18 yrs of diaper changes, home and board and the greatest skill set you got is to show up and ensure the proper key goes into the right hole....

f'n shrimpie... I know I know... you wanted to be lobsterwrappedinfiletminon, but your SAT score sucked.... and hence the RE brokerage gig... GOOD for you.... your great great grandfather is proud too...

west81st - nice catch. will need a gut, but the place will look amazing when done. nice block, too.

> that's not a lowball. YAWN.

Right... 20% off ask is standard.

Try 40-50% off ask.

ACRIS says 194 RSD #5A closed on June 16th for $1.3MM. NYC rolling sales update shows $1,323,725. Either way, it's a successful lowball, and a nice buy. The ask was $1,595,000. Don't know why Streeteasy doesn't show the sale.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/376707-coop-194-riverside-drive-upper-west-side-new-york

Copying from the choppers thread:

In This Building
135 East 83rd Street more »
New York, NY 10028

Sales listings: 2 active, 5 in contract and 3 previous
Rentals listings: 2 previous
Local Schools
Schools zoned for this address:
JHS 167 Robert F Wagner (6-8)
PS 6 Lillie D. Blake (K-5)

StreetEasy History
03/14/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $3,250,000.
05/28/2008 Price decreased by 8% to $2,990,000.
07/08/2008 Price decreased by 3% to $2,900,000.
09/13/2008 Listing entered contract.
11/22/2008 Re-listed by Prudential Elliman.
11/22/2008 Price decreased by 14% to $2,500,000.
12/12/2008 Price decreased by 10% to $2,250,000.
01/29/2009 Listing entered contract.
03/10/2009 Re-listed by Prudential Elliman.
Sold for 1,825,000.
works out to about $800/sf

19% off final ask. 44% off original ask.

40 East 9th Street #9J
05/18/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $1,925,000.
06/30/2008 Price decreased by 4% to $1,850,000.
07/22/2008 Price decreased by 4% to $1,780,000.
09/17/2008 Price decreased by 5% to $1,698,500.
10/17/2008 Listing is no longer available.
07/10/2009 Sale recorded for $1,300,000.
For some reason, the unit recorded on the tax statement is #3 (as with some other closings in the building), but it's clearly #9J.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/903784
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/241482-coop-40-east-9th-street-greenwich-village-new-york
It's hard to tell whether Elliman was ultimately involved in the sale. The buyers may have approached the estate directly.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/5461-condo-59-john-street-financial-district-new-york

1/01/2005
Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $2,550,000.
10/12/2007
Listing is no longer available.
11/07/2007
Re-listed by Prudential Elliman.
02/08/2008
Price decreased by 6% to $2,400,000.
02/09/2008
Price decreased by 0% to $2,395,000.
05/04/2008
Delisted temporarily.
06/08/2008
Re-listed by Prudential Elliman.
06/08/2008
Price increased by 0% to $2,399,000.
07/10/2008
Price decreased by 9% to $2,195,000.
09/12/2008
Price decreased by 9% to $1,995,000.
01/14/2009
Price decreased by 20% to $1,600,000.
02/17/2009
Price decreased by 2% to $1,575,000.
03/22/2009
Listing entered contract.
06/24/2009
Listing sold.
06/24/2009
Sale recorded for $1,350,000.

SF: 1,612
Final price: $837/sf

It should be noted that this unit also has a 1,582 sf private terrace.

1/2005 - $2,550,000.
06/24/2009 - $1,350,000.
wow, that's a significant discount from the 2005 level.

where would you say NYC Real estate prices have retreated to today? Perhaps 2004 level? considering previously example might have been a bigger chopper than others.

Would you say nationwide, we are back at 2002 levels?

jjun - 2.55 was not a sale, it was just an unreasonable asking price in 2005.

2 sales at the Prime on 14th
Unit 5
07/02/2008 - $3,275,000.
11/26/2008 - $2,650,000.
06/08/2009 - Sale recorded for $2,000,000.
Unit 8
07/02/2008 - $3,650,000.
11/26/2008 - $2,800,000.
06/08/2009 - Sale recorded for $2,100,000.

"the Prime on 14th"

Always good for a chuckle when the buyers move in and realize they were talking about beef and not location...... snark.

80 Central Park West #20A. 2007 ask. 2005 result.
10/08/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Brown Harris Stevens at $1,950,000.
11/04/2008 Price decreased by 5% to $1,850,000.
11/17/2008 Delisted temporarily.
05/07/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/14/2009 Sale recorded for $1,400,000.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/356154-coop-80-central-park-west-lincoln-square-new-york

23.5% down from last ask: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/393504-coop-308-east-79th-street-upper-east-side-new-york

09/17/2008 Previously Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $769,000.
11/17/2008 Delisted temporarily by Corcoran.
03/20/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Halstead Property at $699,000.
05/07/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/15/2009 Listing sold.
07/15/2009 Sale recorded for $535,000.

Is it just me or are substantially discounted properties becoming easier to find?

evnyc, are you an insider? i spent a couple of hours yesterday looking through recorded sales and there were so many that i could have posted in the comps section that i think i posted one and then stopped. including in that market that i and others have assumed is being propped up by the conforming loan, the studio and one bedroom. plus i saw a number that sold at or even slightly above initial ask in very little time, but many of those were priced to sell from the start, given the comps. of course, as spinnaker could tell you, there are still a number of them that have defied gravity.

Aboutready, no, I'm a complete cheapskate so I use ACRIS or ask an Insider friend to check for me when I'm curious about a specific property. I feel like I'm seeing a lot of accepted lowball sales in the $1.5-$3 million range, and thought that perhaps it had something to do with the incredible appreciation that family-sized apartments enjoyed over the past two decades. I feel like those were apartments people could and did live in for long periods of time, and therefore they have more downside negotiating room.

But as you said, it's all over the map.

The 1.5 (or 1.7) to 3 range is indeed showing the most lowball success in my analysis as well.

evnyc, if something has appreciated 3 or 4 times over the last 10-12 years, it has room for downward pricing regardless of the size. studios could be had for less than $100k in the not-so-distant past. the declines don't seem as stark thus far because of the conforming loan situation, and the fact that a $75-100k drop just doesn't seem as juicy, but some of the units in that market, and particularly the 700sf or so one bedroom, are falling quite quickly as well. if it weren't for julia i'd never notice it, because it's not what i'm really interested in.

That's interesting, Aboutready. My observation has been that the studio, 1-br, and low-end 2-br markets have been holding up the best, and I thought the most recent data had more or less shown fewest declines in 1-bedrooms. I do think we're starting to see some substantial separation of the chaff from the wheat in those markets, for example apartments with significant flaws in location, layout, maintenance or so forth seem to be getting heavily chopped in some cases.

this is something i just started noticing with the wave of recorded closings that are showing up from contracts signed mid-to-late spring, evnyc. the following is not atypical, this is a solid 2005 price, and it is newly renovated so condition is at least as good as the 2005 sales. a 20ish% decline won't get it on the comps board, perhaps, which may be why they're not getting any press:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/373143-coop-245-east-54th-street-sutton-place-new-york

01/10/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $535,000.
02/27/2009 Price decreased by 9% to $485,000.
04/28/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/20/2009 Listing sold.
07/20/2009 Sale recorded for $435,000.

maybe i'll start a thread for comps for the lower-end market.

343 East 74th St. #12G: Asking $1.25MM. Sold, after just six weeks on the market, for $950K.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/343-east-74-street-manhattan
The tax filing identifies the sold apartment appears as "UNIT2", but it's really #12G.
http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/Detail?Doc_ID=2009072300140001

Apartment 1709 at the Plaza owns a special place in the annals of lowballing, price-chopping AND market movement: 42% off prior sale, 53% off original ask, 32% off final ask.
05/05/2008 Previous Sale recorded for $14,674,181.
06/13/2008 Listed with Sotheby's/Warburg at $18,000,000.
09/16/2008 Price reduced to $16,500,000.
10/22/2008 Price reduced to $14,500,000.
02/17/2009 Price reduced to $12,500,000.
06/02/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/21/2009 Sale recorded for $8,500,000.
Don't pity the original buyer. He's rich enough to have donated the property to his favorite charity.

133 East 80th #2A sold for $2.135MM, 28% below the final ask of $2.95MM.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/368275-coop-133-east-80th-street-upper-east-side-new-york

With regard to comps, note that the second floor of this building is unique. #2A is a seven, and cannot be compared directly to #3A and #4A, ten-room apartments in better condition that sold for 2-3 times as much. Nonetheless, the drop in per-share price from #4A ($9484/share in 2007) to #2A ($4662/share in 2009) is stunning.

8 East 96th Street #15/16B sold for $2.1MM, 27% below the final ask of $2.895, and 44% below the original ask of $3.75MM.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/8-east-96-street-manhattan

There are no direct comps for this estate Candela duplex. On a per-share basis, the sale suggests a drop of 50% from peak, but that's a very crude metric.

W81: I posted about 133 East 80th on the UES 7+ thread a couple days ago...had no idea about the massive drop in per-share price though. It is really a beautiful apartment, albeit on the second floor with the master bedroom overlooking noisy Lexington Avenue, with a salon and grocery directly below.

Thanks, xellam. Sorry about the duplication. I missed your post.

That 8 East 96th St #15/16B 27% lowball just outdoes a slightly earlier sale in the building, #9C in May for $1.8mm, 25% below final ask of $2.395mm.

Next one to watch is #12AB. The sellers may have insulated themselves from a major lowball by pricing 20% below their early 2006 cost, so I'll bet that when it closes #12AB ends up on the market movement thread rather than here.

The first closing at 905 West End Avenue is apartment #72, a renovated seven priced at $2.975MM that sold for $1.74MM. The 42% discount makes this sale a record-shattering lowball, but with an important footnote: the sponsor has been quietly offering deep discounts at 905 WEA for a year. The asking prices were DOA before the ink was dry on the prospectus.

Copying from the choppers thread again. Closing 23% below most recent ask.

131 East 66th St. 4-5A
08/19/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $8,000,000.
11/07/2008 Price decreased by 15% to $6,800,000.
01/07/2009 Price decreased by 15% to $5,750,000.
01/30/2009 Price decreased by 14% to $4,950,000.
02/27/2009 Price decreased by 11% to $4,400,000.
04/14/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/10/2009 Sale recorded for $3,400,000.
As the listing says, "THIS IS AN ESTATE SALE AND SELLERS ARE VERY SERIOUS!"
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/343221-coop-131-east-66th-street-lenox-hill-new-york

Here's a good one, at %19.5 down from last asking:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/166488-coop-45-east-62nd-street-lenox-hill-new-york

11/02/2005 Previously Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $2,750,000.
03/19/2007 Previous Sale recorded for $2,550,000.
01/14/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Stribling at $3,495,000.
02/05/2008 Price decreased by 7% to $3,250,000.
04/22/2008 Price decreased by 5% to $3,100,000.
06/10/2008 Price decreased by 3% to $2,995,000.
08/15/2008 Listing is no longer available.
09/18/2008 Re-listed by Stribling.
11/24/2008 Price decreased by 7% to $2,795,000.
03/23/2009 Listing is no longer available.
07/30/2009 Sale recorded for $2,250,000.

The median listing discount for co-ops remains at a boring %7, though.

At the other end of the range but OT, this went for 8.9% above last asking: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/394603-coop-42-west-89th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

03/24/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $895,000.
05/14/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/31/2009 Sale recorded for $975,000.

Sold at 21% below, so buyer started out offering what, 25% below?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/361705-coop-16-east-96th-street-carnegie-hill-new-york

11/03/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Sotheby's International Realty, Inc. at $3,995,000.
11/17/2008 Price decreased by 20% to $3,200,000.
02/17/2009 Price decreased by 9% to $2,900,000.
05/15/2009 Price decreased by 10% to $2,600,000.
07/09/2009 Listing entered contract.
08/05/2009 Sale recorded for $2,050,000.

NWT: The capitulation at 16 E96 #2A is even more striking if you add the original listing to the history (see http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/226148-coop-16-east-96th-street-carnegie-hill-new-york).
04/23/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by CBHK at $5,300,000.
06/22/2008 Price decreased by 8% to $4,900,000.
08/29/2008 Price decreased by 6% to $4,600,000.
10/11/2008 Price decreased by 13% to $3,995,000.
10/28/2008 Listing is no longer available.
11/03/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Sotheby's International Realty, Inc. at $3,995,000.
11/17/2008 Price decreased by 20% to $3,200,000.
02/17/2009 Price decreased by 9% to $2,900,000.
05/15/2009 Price decreased by 10% to $2,600,000.
07/09/2009 Listing entered contract.
08/05/2009 Sale recorded for $2,050,000.

Curiously, #3A returned to the market, asking $3.5MM, right after #2A went to contract.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/437618-coop-16-east-96th-street-carnegie-hill-new-york

Although it's a lowball in percentage terms, the purchase of #6F at the San Remo by the next-door neighbors seems a fairly rich trade:
10/21/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $5,295,000.
10/26/2008 Price decreased by 6% to $4,995,000.
01/21/2009 Listing entered contract.
08/04/2009 Listing sold.
08/04/2009 Sale recorded for $4,100,000.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/359115-coop-145-146-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york
The seller here traded up to #25G at the Eldorado in June. A purchase at the Beresford would complete the Emery Roth hat trick.

Wow. I'd missed that earlier 2A listing. 3A can't be happy, especially as theirs lacks the higher ceilings and some of the detail potential buyers would want.

40 East 83rd Street #8W
02/10/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Olshan Realty at $2,150,000.
03/07/2009 Price decreased by 7% to $1,995,000.
04/10/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/14/2009 Listing sold.
07/14/2009 Sale recorded for $1,600,000.

Pretty much a wreck, and the maintenance is on the high side, but still... under $900/SF for a big pre-war six in prime Lenox Hill?

West 81st - I am confused again - I only see five rooms in the 40 East 83rd listing, including the kitchen. What am I missing? Thanks.

As for 16 East 96, I am absolutely stunned. 5 bedrooms, plus a library, living and dining, plus an eat in kitchen, less than a block from the park, for $2.05MM. Granted, low floor and 96th is up there, I am still shocked.

250 East 65th Street, 10E:

08/20/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Brown Harris Stevens at $1,999,000.
09/17/2008 Listing entered contract.
10/15/2008 Re-listed by Brown Harris Stevens.
11/05/2008 Price decreased by 5% to $1,900,000.
03/07/2009 Price decreased by 5% to $1,799,000.
04/03/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/31/2009 Listing sold for $1,500,000

Interestingly, 8E is on the market asking $1.65MM, but 11E is in contract with an ask of $2.375MM. Either that closing price will be the lowball that dwarfs all lowballs, or else something seems off here.

422 East 72nd Street #27A
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/286905-coop-10-east-end-avenue-yorkville-new-york

I got an update on this one via email, saying it had sold. My first thought was "must have gone for under $2MM". Lo and behold:

12/16/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $2,395,000.
02/27/2009 Price decreased by 8% to $2,195,000.
04/03/2009 Listing entered contract.
06/16/2009 Listing is no longer available.
06/30/2009 Listing sold.
06/30/2009 Sale recorded $1,775,000.

I actually don't think this was a great deal for the buyer, but the difference between ask and closing price is noteworthy.

Newbuyer99: The original "W" floorplan at 40 East 83rd is a classic six with side-by-side LR/DR:
http://www.corcoran.com/images/media/ListingFloorplans/1487702.1.gif
In #8W, the wall between the LR and DR has been removed, and the wall between the DR and maid's room has been moved three feet to the north, to expand the "third bedroom":
http://www.olshan.com/images/292107/base0.jpg
I think the main problem with that change is the effect on window placement.
By the way, I shouldn't have called 83rd and Madison prime Lenox Hill, but it's certainly prime UES.

Newbuyer99: With regard to 16 West 96th, I think in this case the clearing price (while notable) is much less shocking than the numbers that both #2A and #3A were seeking in 2008. #2A is just mind-numbing. $5.3MM for a low-floor estate in a third-tier pre-WWI coop where the all-time high is around $2.25MM??? Granted, #6A achieved that high mark in January 2004, but that still suggests a peak value for #2A south of $3MM and a current value right around where it sold.

Thanks, West 81st, that's a helpful explanation.

Does this count -- http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/344772-coop-86-10-34th-avenue-jackson-heights Originally on the market last year at 429k, was informed by broker that it has gone into contract, last week for 365k.

Any successful lowballs in the lower price ranges...such as $500,000? It doesn't seem like owners at this price are going down that far.

Most sellers at any price aren't going down that far.

E.g., querying SE for its last 14 days of closed Manhattan co-ops, there're 70-odd closings linked to a last-asking price. Of those, there're a few above asking, a few at asking, and a few at maybe 15-25% off asking. The rest are in a broad range, with most clumped around 7% off. It's been like that for the last few months I've been looking, and of course is always a few months behind the contracts.

So, buyers may be offering lowballs, but that's not what they're paying, as a rule. I suspect people offer something like ~10% below, and end up at ~7% after negotiations.

I misremembered. Median is 6.1% off.

1 -21.2% $2,050,000 $2,600,000 08/05/09 #2A The Queenston at 16 East 96th Street in Carnegie Hill
2 -17.9% $4,100,000 $4,995,000 08/04/09 #6F The San Remo at 145 Central Park West in Upper West Side
3 -17.1% $455,000 $549,000 08/05/09 #4C 237 West 109th Street in Manhattan Valley
4 -16.8% $1,160,000 $1,395,000 08/05/09 #2B 200 Mercer Street in Noho
5 -15.7% $572,500 $679,000 07/31/09 #11M 345 East 81st Street in Yorkville
6 -14.7% $639,000 $749,000 08/06/09 #4LN Chelsea Lane at 16 West 16th Street in Chelsea
7 -13.6% $1,015,000 $1,175,000 07/31/09 #5C 8 Jay Street in Tribeca
8 -13.3% $5,200,000 $5,995,000 08/03/09 #14C 1125 Park Avenue in Carnegie Hill
9 -12.6% $340,000 $389,000 08/05/09 #1001 200 East 24th Street in Kips Bay
10 -12.3% $250,000 $285,000 08/05/09 #8H 433 West 34th Street in Clinton
11 -11.7% $370,000 $419,000 07/31/09 #2A 240 East 35th Street in Murray Hill
12 -11.5% $1,483,137 $1,675,000 08/07/09 #2,3 85 Bedford Street in West Village
13 -11.0% $800,000 $899,000 08/04/09 #10A 221 West 82nd Street in Upper West Side
14 -10.8% $370,000 $415,000 08/05/09 #2F 1831 Madison Avenue in East Harlem
15 -10.6% $2,100,000 $2,350,000 08/04/09 #15E 785 Park Avenue in Upper East Side
16 -10.6% $455,000 $509,000 07/31/09 #7J 345 East 73rd Street in Upper East Side
17 -9.8% $360,000 $399,000 08/06/09 #2N 211 Thompson Street in Greenwich Village
18 -9.8% $360,000 $399,000 08/06/09 #4-F 3 Hanover Square in Financial District
19 -9.5% $900,000 $995,000 08/04/09 #3S 134 Duane Street in Tribeca
20 -9.5% $950,000 $1,050,000 07/31/09 #5K 1199 Park Avenue in Carnegie Hill
21 -9.3% $1,225,000 $1,350,000 08/03/09 #3C 2 Beekman Place in Beekman
22 -9.0% $534,000 $587,000 08/06/09 #5K 250 West 94th Street in Upper West Side
23 -9.0% $555,000 $610,000 08/05/09 #3I 244 Madison Avenue in Midtown South
24 -8.8% $492,375 $540,000 08/05/09 #C304 East River Coop at 575 Grand Street in Lower East Side
25 -8.3% $1,100,000 $1,200,000 08/06/09 #11B 135 East 71st Street in Lenox Hill
26 -8.0% $400,000 $435,000 08/10/09 309 West 82nd Street in Upper West Side
27 -7.9% $1,100,000 $1,195,000 07/31/09 #27AB 200 East 90th Street in Yorkville
28 -7.6% $910,000 $985,000 08/03/09 #6D 400 East 52nd Street in Beekman
29 -7.6% $553,500 $599,000 08/05/09 #12C 325 East 57th Street in Sutton Place
30 -7.5% $920,000 $995,000 08/06/09 #16-NE The Schwab House at 11 Riverside Drive in Upper West Side
31 -7.4% $625,000 $675,000 08/05/09 #K1306 Seward Park (3-4) at 210 East Broadway in Lower East Side
32 -7.3% $1,850,000 $1,995,000 08/06/09 #2A 165 Duane Street in Tribeca
33 -7.2% $342,500 $369,000 08/03/09 #8E 525 East 82nd Street in Yorkville
34 -6.9% $325,000 $349,000 08/06/09 #312 243 West End Avenue in Lincoln Square
35 -6.8% $885,000 $950,000 07/31/09 #3D Emery Towers at 400 East 77th Street in Upper East Side
36 -6.7% $760,000 $815,000 08/04/09 #4C 439 East 51st Street in Beekman
37 -6.7% $555,000 $595,000 07/31/09 #12C 333 East 75th Street in Upper East Side
38 -6.5% $650,000 $695,000 08/06/09 #10NS 60 Sutton Place South in Sutton Place
39 -6.1% $535,000 $570,000 08/06/09 #26G 160 East 38th Street in Murray Hill
40 -6.0% $375,000 $399,000 07/31/09 #12-L 440 East 79th Street in Upper East Side
41 -6.0% $1,175,625 $1,250,000 08/04/09 #16C 50 East 79th Street in Upper East Side
42 -5.7% $330,000 $350,000 08/04/09 #10H Tracy Towers at 245 East 24th Street in Kips Bay
43 -5.7% $750,000 $795,000 08/05/09 #4E 20 East 74th Street in Upper East Side
44 -5.6% $915,000 $969,000 08/06/09 #11C 44 West 62nd Street in Lincoln Square
45 -5.2% $882,100 $930,000 08/06/09 #E 8D The Royal York at 425 East 63rd Street in Lenox Hill
46 -4.8% $570,000 $599,000 08/05/09 #909 24 Fifth Avenue in Greenwich Village
47 -4.8% $380,000 $399,000 08/10/09 #22H 345 East 93rd Street in Yorkville
48 -4.7% $490,000 $514,000 08/06/09 #1G 325 East 80th Street in Yorkville
49 -4.1% $1,606,875 $1,675,000 08/07/09 #2,3 85 Bedford Street in West Village
50 -4.0% $575,000 $599,000 07/31/09 #4K 165 West 66th Street in Lincoln Square
51 -3.7% $1,055,000 $1,095,000 07/31/09 #1F The Victoria House at 200 East 27th Street in Kips Bay
52 -3.6% $375,000 $389,000 08/03/09 #6N The Victoria House at 200 East 27th Street in Kips Bay
53 -3.1% $435,000 $449,000 08/04/09 #9F B The Sutton House at 415 East 52nd Street in Sutton Place
54 -3.1% $522,500 $539,000 08/07/09 #7K Lincoln Towers at 140 West End Avenue in Lincoln Square
55 -2.6% $427,750 $439,000 08/07/09 #19F 345 East 81st Street in Yorkville
56 -2.4% $410,000 $420,000 08/05/09 #11T The John Adams at 101 West 12th Street in Greenwich Village
57 -2.3% $380,000 $389,000 08/06/09 #102 325 West 45th Street in Clinton
58 -2.3% $390,000 $399,000 08/06/09 #1109 Woodstock Tower at 320 East 42nd Street in Murray Hill
59 -2.0% $1,225,000 $1,250,000 08/06/09 #1202 243 Riverside Drive in Upper West Side
60 -1.4% $1,375,000 $1,395,000 08/04/09 #10-C 250 West 94th Street in Upper West Side
61 -1.4% $837,000 $849,000 07/31/09 #1JK 25 Minetta Lane in Greenwich Village
62 -1.4% $1,267,500 $1,285,000 08/04/09 #14JW The Schwab House at 11 Riverside Drive in Upper West Side
63 -1.3% $295,000 $299,000 08/07/09 #17 317 East 3rd Street in East Village
64 -0.8% $729,000 $735,000 08/05/09 #817 The Parker Gramercy at 10 West 15th Street in Chelsea
65 0.0% $299,000 $299,000 08/03/09 #8K 225 East 36th Street in Murray Hill
66 0.0% $480,000 $480,000 08/06/09 #24G 180 West End Avenue in Lincoln Square
67 0.0% $499,900 $499,900 08/03/09 #17D 80 La Salle Street in West Harlem
68 0.0% $505,000 $505,000 08/04/09 #15C 878 West End Avenue in Manhattan Valley
69 0.0% $575,000 $575,000 08/04/09 #4L Gracie Gardens at 520 East 90th Street in Yorkville
70 0.0% $599,000 $599,000 08/04/09 #82 40 West 72nd Street in Lincoln Square
71 0.0% $825,000 $825,000 08/03/09 #3B 315 West 99th Street in Upper West Side
72 0.0% $1,095,000 $1,095,000 08/06/09 #12F 50 Riverside Drive in Upper West Side
73 2.2% $700,000 $685,000 08/05/09 #11L 165 East 72nd Street in Upper East Side
74 4.0% $675,000 $649,000 08/04/09 #11TE The Schwab House at 11 Riverside Drive in Upper West Side
75 7.5% $215,000 $200,000 07/31/09 #2A 225 Bennett Avenue in Fort George
76 8.9% $975,000 $895,000 07/31/09 42 West 89th Street in Upper West Side
77 10.0% $385,000 $350,000 08/06/09 #4AB 268 East 4th Street in East Village

1349 Lexington Avenue #6E. A quick estate sale hits the $600/sq.ft. mark for a Carnegie Hill six with tolerable maintenance.
04/12/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $1,195,000.
06/01/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/13/2009 Sale recorded for $999,000.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/404133-coop-1349-lexington-avenue-carnegie-hill-new-york
There are reasons to discount this one. The location is fringe Carnegie Hill, and non-PS6. The layout isn't great, though it's quite flexible - which will come in handy, since the apartment probably needs extensive renovation. Even with the negatives, the price seems noteworthy.

NWT, is that off initial asking or most recent asking price prior to going into contract?

51 Fifth Avenue #12B. Prime, corner Village six for under $1100/SF.
10/17/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Halstead Property at $2,750,000.
10/19/2008 Price increased by 2% to $2,795,000.
01/24/2009 Price decreased by 14% to $2,395,000.
02/27/2009 Price decreased by 8% to $2,195,000.
05/19/2009 Listing entered contract.
08/11/2009 Sale recorded for $1,800,000.
Estate sale, but no evident condition problems. #16B sold a year ago for $2.35MM.

Kylewest, Happyrenter, other Village People: Any thoughts?

Most-recent asking.

west81st,

i think that will turn out to be a great buy. i bid on that apartment, actually, but withdrew because i just couldn't figure out a way to arrange the layout to my liking--there is no way to create any privacy for the bedrooms. that said, there are very, very few prewar classic sixes in the village in general and lower 5th avenue in particular. it's an utterly ideal location, and it has a fabulous, protected view west over 5th avenue and the landmark church across the street.

the broker was also quite adamant that the sellers would never go below $2 million. apparently circumstances changed.

happyrenter, right, the E plan and the F next door are awkward. Bedrooms off the living room, which you can see being dictated by space and isn't uncommon, but putting the WBFP in that useless little sitting room makes no sense at all. The chimney stack could just as well have been further north with WBFPs in the living rooms. Note in the 10E plan how a couple of chairs have been added to suggest what you're supposed to do with that foyer.

NWT--

OOPS, I guess I wasn't clear: I was talking about 51 5th 12B. No doubt you are correct that the 1349 Lex layout is quite poor, and the location less than ideal. I think that is amply reflected in the price, and for the right person that would be a pretty great buy. But I was talking about 51 5th.

You were clear; my brain skipped.

And "right" for real, that 51 Fifth layout would've been a PITA forever. The weird guest-cubby/DR/bath arrangement was discussed here before, but the BR off the living room with the door centered opposite the fireplace is no good. Maybe OK access if the LR were wider, but still a privacy problem.

NWT: I still wonder if 12A&B could have been had for 3m. That would be a forever apt for me - would definitely give up the UWS for that.

Yeah, they'd have made a good combo. That wall of closets between the foyers could go, and more scope to fix the layout issues with B.

A few weeks ago I walked around lower Fifth for the first time in years. It really is great.

Apt A would be the bedroom wing (LR becomes MBr) - 4brs or 3brs + den. The MBr of B would be the library. 2nd br of B would be guest bedroom/nanny suite. Get rid of the maid's br and create an EIK.

Sounds good. Was just thinking how to handle bath access from A's new master, but for dream purposes we can assume not too much plumbing in that wall to right of fireplace....

308 East 79th St #7F - Did I do my math right and it closed for 30% below asking??

09/17/2008 Previously Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $769,000.
11/17/2008 Delisted temporarily by Corcoran.
03/20/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Halstead Property at $699,000.
05/07/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/15/2009 Listing sold.
07/15/2009 Sale recorded for $535,000.

> that's not a lowball. YAWN.

YAWN apparently means "wow, correct, I am in fact a dumbass"

Obernon, I get a 23.5% listing discount. Pretty good.

(699000-535000)=164000
164000/699000=.2346.....

12 A and B could not have been had for $3 mil or even close to that. The owner of 12A was merely testing the water, he wasn't a serious seller. I looked into it.

HR/NWT/10023: I think it's possible to manufacture a bedroom wing in the "B" line - the dining room can even be part of it as an extra BR - but the price is converting a whole lot of closet space into hallway.

By the way, #16B - which sold for $2.35MM a year ago - isn't even a comp. The layout looks similar at first glance... until you notice that the dining room is missing.
http://www.robilotti.com/img/contentimg/51_5th_16B_floorplan_web%20(2).jpg

west81st,

it is POSSIBLE to create a bedroom wing, but really requires a mutilation of the apartment and--as you point out--leaves you with no closets. again, i think it is a great buy, and i will admit that i have some regret over letting that one go. but i do think they layout is an issue.

More In This Building
340 East 80th Street

New York, NY 10021

Sales listings: 1 active, 2 in contract and 64 previous
Rentals listings: 2 active and 10 previous
Local Schools
Schools zoned for this address:
JHS 167 Robert F Wagner (6-8)
PS 290 Manhattan New School (K-5)

StreetEasy History
04/07/2005 Previous Sale recorded for $1,100,000.
11/04/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $1,495,000.
01/05/2009 Price decreased by 8% to $1,375,000.
02/18/2009 Price decreased by 9% to $1,249,000.
03/10/2009 Price decreased by 12% to $1,099,000.
05/17/2009 Price decreased by 9% to $999,000.
06/02/2009 Listing entered contract.
08/12/2009 Listing sold.
08/12/2009 Sale recorded for $960,000.

Not such a lowball from the final asking but significantly below the previous sale price, esp factoring the brokers fee and closing costs.

905 West End Avenue #12-2: Fully renovated, high-floor, front-facing 4BR/3BA condo.
04/17/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Halstead Property at $3,140,000.
01/30/2009 Listing entered contract.
08/10/2009 Sale recorded for $1,884,380.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/218313-condop-905-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york
The brave buyers who helped Samson beat the sales deadline for this conversion were rewarded with huge discounts off black-book prices.

Interesting. What do you think the odds are of future buyers getting similar deals at 905WEA?

1965 Broadway #16B: "Only" 15.3% below ask, but posted for w67's amusement.
02/27/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Brown Harris Stevens at $3,895,000.
07/19/2009 Listing entered contract.
08/18/2009 Sale recorded for $3,300,000.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/387079-condo-1965-broadway-lincoln-square-new-york

[BTW, for those interested in 905 WEA, that discussion continued on this thread: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/6100-905-west-end-avenue?page=2]

360 Riverside Drive- 5/08 $1,650,000 - just closed for $1,085,000.

The lowball winner for recorded sales 8/11-8/25, at 23% listing discount, is http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/350341-coop-144-east-84th-street-upper-east-side-new-york

09/19/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $2,595,000.
01/27/2009 Price decreased by 8% to $2,395,000.
06/16/2009 Listing entered contract.
08/19/2009 Sale recorded for $1,845,000.

Winner at the other end, with an 18.3% premium, was http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/411376-coop-235-east-73rd-street-upper-east-side-new-york

Nothing interesting in the other 104 closings. Median listing discount unchanged at 6%.

ph41 - 360 riverside was caught behind the curve, maybe a result of the detachment between estate and broker. The apartment needed a lot of work and was never correctly priced. Last listing price of 1.175 was a little closer to reality but still too high given maint, condition, layout and north RSD location imo. Not sure I would categorize 1.175 ---> 1.085 as a successful lowball.

I'm sure I wouldn't. The buyer's first offer may have been 30% less -- we'll never know -- but ending up paying 7.7% less is not a successful lowball.

It'd be interesting to see whether there's a pattern to those first offers, since most co-op closings show an unremarkable listing discount. There seems to be a threshold below which the bidder tends to get a FU and above which the seller is willing to negotiate.

I don't know how to track it, but there might be patterns of asking-price reductions, time on the market, etc., that correlate to listing discounts.

65 Central Park West #12B. Best line in the building: big southeast corner six with park views. High floor, excellent condition. Closed 15% below final ask, though still not exactly cheap at $3.4MM.
11/10/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Warburg at $4,495,000.
12/04/2008 Price decreased by 11% to $3,995,000.
08/27/2009 Listing sold.
08/27/2009 Sale recorded for $3,400,000.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/364668-coop-65-central-park-west-lincoln-square-new-york