frontline special on NY

watched about 1/2 so far....speechless.

Fascinating to see the faces and hear the voices of the recession. It's far easier to watch and hear these stories than those profiles in the NY Times and the Washington Post over the past few months about either rich divorcées or journalism students-cum-NYC bartenders and how they are "affected" by the economy.

Interesting how difficult life in the big city can be without a steady flow of money into your life.

Now for a little prespective. There is an article in this weeks New Yorker about life in North Korea. If you think living w/o a job is difficult here's an article about living w/o food....no exaggeration.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/11/02/091102fa_fact_demick
I am, by no means, de-emphasizing the horror of unemployment it's just doesn't hold a candle to true hunger. There is something very 'Kafkaesque' about both frontline and, the good cook piece. The magic of Kafka was his ability to draw upon the essence of the human condition of the moment. To see where these conditions would take society, if left unchecked, in difficult times. We now know that Kafka was spot on. I wonder what these tid-bits say about our future as a city/country/world. My mother would always say, "everyones' your friend at the party, your real friends are the ones helping you clean it up after it's over". I know what your thinking...is falco the child of Plato?
Dream on......

actually, falco, i read something recently about children not having enough food in this country. i'll try to find it.

i have a good friend who works for one of the business publications. is at high risk of losing his job next week. did i post this elsewhere? i've been thinking about it for weeks.

i asked him why there aren't more human-interest stories in this recession. i still recall the early 80's recession and the news was much differently presented then. he asked me if i really wanted him to go hunt up the five people who were recently fired from his unit, all relatively marginally paid over the years, to see if they were currently utilizing food banks. and he meant it. he said that this time the reporters are living the recession, in previous downturns they weren't even remotely close to this degree.

take a quick look at dailyjobcuts.com. you don't need to read the articles, the headlines will give you a pretty good idea of where we're headed. and i certainly don't mean to minimize global poverty or hunger. i just think it's here more than you'd ever imagine.

I just checked out that site. Notice that there are no small businesses listed. They are the last to shed employees. If 'all' businesses were listed I think it might get more frightening. On another note, as we see the health care bill emerge, take note of the fact that there is no provision for small businesses to join together to create health care groups for the purposes of collective bargining. It would appear that the health ins. companies have the pols in their pockets (when it comes to my pocket). In the end if my health care costs rise as a result of these measures as opposed to be reduced I believe it time for...dare I say......revolution. It occures to me that at a certian point the social contract is broken. The balance is so far off that no amount of tipping can save it. We might be closer than we think. We were very close in the late 60's.
Money can buy a lot of complacency.

"On another note, as we see the health care bill emerge, take note of the fact that there is no provision for small businesses to join together to create health care groups for the purposes of collective bargining."

Those have existed for along time. They are called co-ops (and no, they have nothing to do with real estate). And according to a study, they do not lower costs.

"The health care reform compromise that centrist Democrats and several Republicans have indicated they'd support has shown an inability to effectively lower premiums for consumers, a newly resurfaced government study shows.

In recent days, a slew of lawmakers, notably Sens. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) and Richard Shelby (R-Ala.), have begun a renewed push to establish health care insurance cooperatives as an alternative to a publicly run insurance plan.

But there's a study at hand that undercuts the argument that co-ops would drastically alter the health insurance market.

The U.S. General Accounting Office produced a report on cooperatives in March 2000 that was mostly sour on the idea. Using five different co-ops as examples, the study concluded that on the key function -- lowering the cost of insurance -- these non-profit insurance pools came up well short.

"The cooperatives' potential to reduce overall premiums is limited because (1) they lack sufficient leverage as a result of their limited market share; (2) the cooperatives have not been able to produce administrative cost savings for insurers; or (3) their state laws and regulations already restrict to differing degrees the amount insurers can vary the premiums charged different groups purchasing the same health plan."

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/17/compromise-co-op-proposal_n_261044.html

I've been looking at last month's Vanity Fair, the one with Jackie Kennedy on the cover, & the articles about how we got into this mess with TARP, etc. 'MAY YOU LIVE IN INTERESTING TIMES", the Chinese say. Oy!

Pres, great post...exactly what I'm talking about.

2009 == 1989. Middle class, college educated, middle management type, middle aged workers being laid off.
1989 = manufacturing dominated economy
2009 = services dominated economy

falco, the job loss column on the left side shows major job losses. the right column, showing business closings, is far less comprehensive, but gives a decent snapshot of small business closings.

and for a different health care perspective, here.

http://www.reuters.com/article/wtUSInvestingNews/idUSTRE59S3FX20091029?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=11604

wow, a race between Riversider and toilet seat welfare queen aboutready who can post the most articles.

wow, a total win by hfs on who can post the most douchey posts in a week.

congrats!! i think you've outperformed jerkico. good job, mate.

too bad w67th is busy...we need to see a meltdown a la carol st. i know he could do it.

yeah, too bad you forgot your password to your 3rd personality. When you "3" all post you really know how to gang up. I look forward to hearing from this w67th.

be careful what you wish for.

oh ok, I'll shut up. Thanks so much for the warning. Whew! I almost pushed too far.

Is w67th just a bit taller than you, a bit more muscular, and green?

wow, such disorder, psychologically.

hsf, how do you think we view you? tall and strong? or weak and nasty and short and viscious.

put it this way, you're not someone anyone wants to have in the office.

The office? Interesting. When was the last time you had a job?

Do you work? Do you do anything other than follow me? Although I'm grateful because you are so assinine and provide so much fun for me. Maybe a psych analysis is in order? That would be jolly good fun.

Yes
Yes
Glad you are grateful. Usually you just feel entitled.
Maybe a psych analysis is in order, but given you have no medical degree, your analysis would bear similar weight to your poor legal analyses.

Only if you need drugs. What do you do again? What value do you add? Feel free to lie. Your Ilk often does.

Funny, YOU of all people calling me a liar?

Why yes I am. And you of all people are far more dishonest than I am.

What do you do ? How do you add value. Feel free to lie because giving your posting idoubt anything would be positive. Good luck.

So you admit your dishonesty?

answer the question.

yes, please answer the question, you admit your dishonesty?

no stupid..

you.... hfs

answer the question.

no asshole

you ... columbiacounty

tell us, do you admit your dishonesty?

yep...lets take it there.

Quit fighting or else I swear I will pull this thread over!

lets bring back jmbuch1.

alpie, this is kind of sort of my thread?

hfs, once again, WHAT CAN YOU OFFER? and of course i'm going to think that anything you say is a lie because you have been so secretive.

i'm very open, and honest. compare that to you.

to all of you who find this distracting and less than attractive, sorry.

the show is very worthwhile, although sad. have a look, it's an interesting view of our current world. even if you disagree, i'd love to have some real conversation about this. so watch and talk.

Interesting Frontline. Thanks for the link AR.

What I found interesting was the couple with the failed coffee shop. They are $200,000 in debt - much of it on credit cards-- yet, when she was talking about their problems, she was saying it was important to take care of yourself and that she works out more and still get massages and still goes to the salon. When the hairstylist asked how she paid for it, she laughed and said she charges it. This could only happen in America. There is an entire generation that thinks that cutting back is not ordering dessert in the restaurant. Really, this is why the banks are in trouble. We read every day in the paper that the wealthy corporate bastards walk away from debt. How can you expect the poor and middle class to step up to their responsibilities. Our national cultural hubris might end up biting our fair nation in the butt.

Is the reporter serious? She is walking on Madison and sees no signs of problems? Every other store is for rent!!!

What about the irony of filming these sad stories while these people are getting expensive hair cuts in the most expensive neighborhood in one of the most expensive cities in the world.

my parents cut each others hair. it's usually pretty uneven. man they're awesome.

apt23, what i find interesting is that you choose to look at it from that perspective. out of all the people interviewed you picked the one who showed a silly disregard for credit (the theology student had a similar, issue, i believe) that's what you find interesting? not the guy who lost his wife, his job, and had his stuff thrown on the street by a bank unwilling to negotiate who then turned around and sold the property for $55k? there's been so little discussion of what's happening to the people who are unemployed. a hair salon, with a sympathetic owner who has a long-term clientele, is an obvious source of info. the reporter selected her own. obviously the owner was helping, but obviously she also generally talks to her clients. this seems to me to be akin to receiving a free therapy session along with the style. as such, it's worth quite a bit more than the cut.

i'm actually going to try and find out what this salon charges today. but it was quite clear that her clients are generally NOT indulging nearly as much. she may lose her business.

wishhouse, that's a great story. i only get my hair cut a couple of times a year, but i certainly don't have the courage to let my husband near it.

yes, people should be responsible. yes, banks had irresponsible lending standards.

the thing about the documentary that left me speechless (unfortunately, i've now recovered) was the sheer ordinariness of all the people; they looked and sounded like many that i (and i suspect many of us) know casually from our day to day dealings. no one was complaining but its clear that no one has a clue as to what to do next.

felt like an early glimpse of a huge problem coming at all of us.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pMscxxELHEg/SsXzzDSUSqI/AAAAAAAAGfM/PWX-2daRZ0w/s1600-h/EmploymentJobLossesRecessions.jpg

this is the problem.

how long do we need before there is some consensus that this won't fix itself?

There's an untold story here. How the guy driving limousine has depleted savings in 8 months, the Porsche lady who blew her stock savings, the guy who thought it was a good idea to load up on credit card debt studying theology, the mom supporting her kids, instead of the kids getting a second job, and the people who get off feeling good about themselves by feeling sorry watching this.

shut up you sanctimonious pig.

The recession of the 80s did a huge number on my psyche (as a young impressionable teenager). I have never forgotten. I simply can't get excited about it a second time around.

so what? what do we do about it? sit back and watch almost 20% of our society fail, largely because they were set up to fail? while money continues to be redistributed upward? watch as less than 50% of recent grads find jobs? as older people lose employment far earlier than retirement age and health care are available? it's easy to point fingers, it's much more difficult to consider what the ramifications are. and you don't know the back story of these people, you're guessing. i know it's really really hard for you to imagine that normal prudent people can find it hard to survive when unemployed for more than six months, but you're of limited imagination.

i'm glad you're so smug and secure. we here have discussed what would happen if the grim prospect of unemployment came knocking. likely we'd be ok, but we would have a tough time if unemployment lasted more than 18 months. and we're in MUCH better shape than most.

I recall a story in the WSJ about a trader who drove a Volksagon instead of a Porsche and wasn't spending his salary like he was supposed to. The story was that his firm(Bear I believe) investigated him fearing drug use or something. He merely didn't trust the money, and decided to save it.

10023, it's certainly easier that way. that's actually a fascinating comment. in the 80s the recession was so in our faces. coverage all the time, on the human interest level. this time, statistics and more statistics. hope, optimism, change. but no jobs, and little discussion of the real people who don't have work.

No, we post Front Line stories to make ourselves feel good, while we live in rent stabalized housing developments.

i guess it makes people believe they are immune. as i said earlier, how long until the majority wakes up and says this is different -- this requires basic rethinking of how we live and what we do.

RS, fuck you. my positions are clear, and always have been. i live in my home, my home's status is being changed. it had zero to do with me, and everything to do with metlife and TS. i love how you hate anecdotal evidence until it is all you have to spew.

enjoying your tax benefits?

enjoying your tax benefits?
so you think 421-a benefits the home buyer now? What's your position here?
Everyone can't benefit, this isn't Wall Street.

wow, that was insightful.

Color me jaded. Maybe it's a generational thing - I can remember the first time I read/saw a documentary about various calamities (nuclear holocaust, env. issues, famine, recession). Deeply impacted the first time. I was upset that other people weren't as upset. But on a personal level, it's not a case of willful denial - it just simply doesn't have the impact on me the second or third time around. Also, and not being smug about this, I was somewhat educated by all the stuff that happened. This has translated into:

1) I'm aware of my impact on the environment, what I consume - try to minimize my consumption, reduce, reuse, recycle, and to spread those memes to my children, their friends, my friends. This isn't a 2009 fad to me, I've been consciously living this way since I've been a teen.

2) The economy - what impressed me the most the last time around was that a college education meant nothing. College grads of my parents' generation, in general, did well. You would have to almost try not to end
up living a fairly comfortable lifestyle if you were a college grad and were born anytime from the late 30s to late 40s. Instead of depending upon a fairly stable job, one had to save as much as possible when times were good
and be resourceful.

3) Geopolitical stuff. Wildly unpredictable, can't get worked up about it too much because who would have
thought the Iron Curtain would come down?

10023, not being judgmental. just interested. i was in college during the early 80s. i remember adult men standing in long lines to apply for seasonal jobs selling fruit at roadside stands.

NYC seems so different than what i experienced then. maybe it is the city? maybe in other places the experience is more similar to what i recall. but i peruse regional newspapers, and this seems different. take a look at the chart i posted. this is actually much worse. our economy as it stands has little to no chance of reabsorbing these people in the next couple of years. maybe i'm being histrionic, but i don't think so.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2009/10/longterm-unemployment.html

It is only superficially different (in terms of human suffering, not root causes) because there is a (shrinking) layer of people who are doing well, or have inherited $ or whatever and I am situated so that these people are my peers and whom I interact with on a day to day basis.

So on one level, the press can't make as deep an impression on me this time, and on another level (who knows for how much longer), I don't have as much personal contact with people who are suffering this time around.

The last go-around, adults of my acquaintance were breaking up families to find jobs wherever they could, dads were becoming (in some cases permanently) stay-at-home dads, college grads went off to Japan to teach English. One difference was that people were not losing their homes because mtge-wise, they weren't as over-extended, and many families I knew ended up renting their basements, sharing houses. A fair number of families relocated to be near other family so they could all save on housing.

This time around, my more intimate circle consists of friends from college (all of whom much were more frugal and conservative than I) - can't think of any who can't hold out for a couple of years sans jobs. Friends from NYC who are fortunately in the layer of people who are renting, are holding on to their jobs, etc.

i do know two divorced couples who are still living together because they can't afford not to. i also know a number of people who are unemployed, including two people living on my floor, and a fair number who are worried about losing their jobs. one friend lost a higher-education teaching position but was rehired without benefits so she had to take a second nighttime position so she could have health benefits for her family. she's a single mom.

my husband has had to fire a number of people, for cause, but i'm sure the economy sped up the decisions.

AR - the divorced couples still living together is not strictly a result of this economic downturn - there were reports of that years ago, the reasons back then - RS or other reasonably priced rental that couldn't be duplicated, expensive condo/coop - couldn't be purchased by just one of the partners, etc.,etc,

And if it makes you feel better to think that all the people your husband fired were "for cause" - not just to reduce firm overhead at a time of shrinking rates for billable hours - well, that's your perogative

of course it doesn't make me feel better, nor him. it's difficult to let even lousy employees go these days. under normal circumstances the lesser workers can still find a job somewhere. taken on any new identities recently?

the two couples that i know bought coops on the UES, one in 2005, one in 2007. they're not remaining together for the benefits of RS. nice try, though.

There are nice apartments in Forest Hills, Jamaica Estates, Kew Gardens & Flushing that go for a fraction of Manhattan East Side. These people were making an economic choice to live on the Upper East Side.

yes, and until, at least in one case, one of them lost their job it wasn't a bad decision. but now that one is unemployed and they can't stand each other, it's not so great. but forest hills wouldn't be so great either. they can't afford two households, anywhere. he can't leave his job, she can't get another one.

is it really SOOOO hard for you to imagine hardship? you really must accuse every single person who has had a run of bad luck for their own demise? you're such an asshole.

its ironic that frontline profiled people who lost their jobs or had their incomes halved but yet still shell out what $50 bucks, $100 bucks for a high end hair salon. r they kidding?
I make over half a million but I still get my haircut maybe once a month for $10 a pop. I shop at COstco and target.
Americans have short memories and don't remember the adversity of the 30's and 40's. They have become prey to the parasitic industries of our age---banks and advertising, luring people into buying shit they don't need!! LIVE RICHLY deadbeats!!!

people are not set up to fail as this post says "sit back and watch almost 20% of our society fail, largely because they were set up to fail?"

this is a great country of opportunity but you can't come here thinking that streets are paved with gold and you have to do nothing. You have to work. You have to deal with advertisity too. Make something. Maybe it even takes a whole generation so your kids are better.

I would not call that a "high end" hair salon. I would also guess that the producer had the owner call up clients to come on down for a trim and share their stories, at least in some cases. Which by the way I don't have a problem with.

new posters? how pleasant.

the very cheap old-time barber shop on first around 82nd went out of business. too bad. i'd bet there were some good (maybe interesting would be a better word) stories there as well.

the people in florida weren't going to her hair salon.

What makes Riversider more "sanctimonious" than columbiacounty?

What makes Riverside a pig but leaves columbiacounty untouched?

AboutReady - you do not live in "your home." You live in a property owned by someone else and they are free to reclassify, rename, re whatever they like or want to do. That is the difference between an owner and a renter. As a renter you are subject to whatever the owner wants to do with his property. You claim that renting is your preferred situation, so stop complaining about the consequences of being a renter.

aboutready
about 2 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse RS, fuck you

another beautiful day ruined because aboutready didn't get something she wasn't entitled to.

aboutready
about 1 hour ago
ignore this person
report abuse 10023, not being judgmental. just interested

liar

petro, pay attention. why would i be unhappy? however, i do have the right to basic services. all renters do.

"i'm glad you're so smug and secure. we here have discussed what would happen if the grim prospect of unemployment came knocking. likely we'd be ok, but we would have a tough time if unemployment lasted more than 18 months. and we're in MUCH better shape than most. "

Our Lady of the Toilet Seat Welfare Queen, one question for you, does this 18 months include the treble damages that you feel entitled to even though you've suffered no damages?

aboutready, stop lying.

I've never seen someone complain so much. Complain about your landlord, your unemployment, the free things someone isn't giving to you because of your entitlement, society, and on and on and on.

Why would you be unhappy ... that's the joke of the day, right?

Liar.

petro, actually the courts just showed exactly the opposite of what you write.

KeithB, exactly right that the producers set up and scripted the entire thing. I've been interviewed for television several times, the camera crew doesn't just pop in one day and hang around. They call weeks in advance, make sure you have the right clients coming in, perhaps even pay for the haircut to entice certain people to come, etc...

Seems most of the people interviewed don't live on the Upper East Side. the Theology student who used his MasterCard to buy food in Coney Island, the single mom from Florida, the HE exec from Conn. Feels like the stories were being told mostly by people who had moved into the city to work/live during the boom years and who have already been forced out by the downturn.

Deborah must be in bad shape if her sister(cousin?) is worried about losing her house over $11,000. Maybe there's something else going on they don't talk about but if $11K is a lot of money to you, you are going to have a very difficult time maintaining a business on the UES.

What are you entitled to this morning Our Lady of the Toilet Seat Welfare Queen?

You are in a market rate rental that you entered into on an arms-length basis. Ask your husband, he seems like the one who deals with practicality for a living.

over and over and over again. the same stupid shit. what is the point of all this? you're pissed? who cares?

Who is pissed? No one is pissed more than you, columbiacounty. No one is more nasty than you.

Why do you only hate some liars but not all liars?

how many times are you going to say the same thing? you're giving me a headache.

i certainly don't hate you hfs. i feel sorry for you.

carry on.

thats so sweet.

I actually have too much pride to accept the sympathy of a lying welfare queen though. But seriously, thank you.

columbiacounty, use the ignore button if you have a headache.

columbiacounty, at least the lying welfare queen can post a link to a Frontline article. Your contribution was that you were speechless. Little sis really shows you up some times. Now I understand why you like some liars.

About Ready you still dont live in "your home"

Lets see how thoser basic services go when the bankruptcy hits and you will b forced to keep paying rent for buildings that go unmaintained cause if you stop paying your rent, the next owner will use even a temp lapse as an excuse to boot you out and rent the apt for market rate....

Hee heee

let's see what happens if the tenants buy the complex, shall we? and it hardly matters. i could find a comparable rental if i had to, no problem. i like my home a great deal, but it would hardly be crushing for me to have to find something else.

somebody should tell the IRS that i'm a welfare queen. maybe my taxes could be lowered.

I think aboutready is a market rate renter.

But even though she entered into a market rate lease on an arms-length basis, she feels entitled to treble damages she didn't face.

hfs, it's simply not a question of what i feel entitled to. it's what the courts deem that i'm entitled to.

if the court rules that the ll owes me treble damages, do you honestly suggest i refuse to accept it? is that what you would do if you were in my circumstances? really?

yeah, there you go again. Bitching about your taxes. Complaining about everything.

You aren't even an earner in your family.

The aboutready day comprises 2 hours at the gym, 1 hour explaning what she is giving to her daughter and the strings attached, 1 hour sulking about her parents, 1.5 hours trying to argue with the landlord, 3 hours reading the internet, 5 hours bitching people out on streeteasy, 3 30 minute intervals on the toilet.

oh, 50 minutes walking the husband to work so she can see what working people look like

its ironic that frontline profiled people who lost their jobs or had their incomes halved but yet still shell out what $50 bucks, $100 bucks for a high end hair salon. r they kidding?
I make over half a million but I still get my haircut maybe once a month for $10 a pop. I shop at COstco and target.
Americans have short memories and don't remember the adversity of the 30's and 40's. They have become prey to the parasitic industries of our age---banks and advertising, luring people into buying shit they don't need!! LIVE RICHLY deadbeats!!!

*******************
Waxer , sounds like you've read the Millionaire next door...or didn't need to

your venom is spectacular. your reasoning and delivery not so much.

what do you do to add value? you've never answered. of course you never really answer. you just regurgitate non-responsive talking points.

have a nice day.

wait, am I back to not amusing you?

80's man is right, Of course this was scripted.

you amuse me hugely. just asking for some answers.

RS, i see you ignored 80sman and Keith's posts. of course, they're not consistent with your mantra that everyone who is having a hard time deserves the same.

abouready again talking about what she deserves

AR: I confess I did not watch the entire program. But I was impressed by the HR man who was so diligent about finding a new job without complaints in spite of the fact that his company, like many others, obviously capitalized on the "opportunity" of the recession to get rid of older workers. His example starkly contrasted with others who had a sense of entitlement born out of living their entire lives in a flush economy.

I don't think most Americans know what suffering is. I grew up in Libya and the suffering I saw at that time is permanently implanted on my brain stem -- as is the guilt of knowing that my personal opportunity is an accident of birth.

I think this country needs to plow all it's energy and every dollar into our deteriorating education system. I have much more empathy for the young woman at UCLA on the front page of the Times today who is desperately trying to get into classes so she can graduate than I do for the Columbia graduate who was berating her mother -- from whom she was still, at age 40, taking financial support--for not supporting her dreams of becoming a personal trainer and instead wanting her to have a corporate job that had benefits. Please. No sympathy here.

interesting perspective here, on strategic defaults.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/10/government-and-lender-policies-of-fear.html