Forte Rebooted!

Prices are still waaaay to high. And then there's the ridiculous common charges...

hey Fayek how is that rental building going on Gold? Forte is ugly!

New prices not yet listed on SE.

Fayek is a borker.

new prices ARE listed on SE, stevejhx.

Fayek - I believe you tried pitching these units to us before. Btw, brokers are asked to kindly identify themselves on this site. Thanks.

THOSE are the NEW prices?!

haha. yes, they are the new prices. here's some price history for you:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/480272-condo-230-ashland-place-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn

keep cuttin'!!

When they cut another 30% they'll be about right.

Forte is f'in UGLY! No way now how! When Toren is priced here give me a ring Fayek, we can put a low bid in to see if it hits

samadams:

The rentals on GOLD STREET are literally FLYING of the shelf! Reason being they are very well priced...Better than their competitors!

BTW I have never hidden the fact that I am a broker working for Halstead property and have no intention of shilling for Forte!

Fayek fair enough. Like I said we can do business when Toren i priced where Forte is today.

I've never seen an apartment on a shelf. Can you tell me where it is - I'm curious.

I wonder what the impact will be on the rest of the new condo developement in downtown brooklyn?

and not just downtown but elswhere like lic and roosevelt island new condos

Absolutely frightning!

I think sponsors holding empty units in LIC and Downtown Brooklyn will soon learn they need to undercut places like Bay Ridge, Jackson Heights and Astoria (rather than Manhattan) in order to sell. No one's going to the outer boroughs just to save 20% off the Manhattan price. But someone may move from a decent outer borough neighborhood to a grimier, less neighborhood-y neighborhood closer to Manhattan if the price is right.

Get real. Prices only ever go UP in Long Island City.

One of those cities is here:

Home Prices in 20 U.S. Cities Rise for Fourth Straight Month

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aBYsOGnlOaBw&pos=3

Well, the price per square foot at Forte will definitely affect the pricing at the rest of the NEW developements in the surrounding area!

Unfortunately, the developers will have to face a not so pleasant reality!

I wonder how far away these price cuts will be felt. Do people think this will push down billyburg?

In regards to forte what people must understand is this. The pricing of these initial unit as they call IT a reboot.These are reflective up needing to get some units in contract right away.This will allow the bank to recoup some of the losses the incurred over the time that the original forte project was floundering.This shouldn't have any effect on conditions in the area.Just look at them what they are technically foreclosures.Since thats what the whole project is.

thereal that is the dumbest post I have seen on street easy in months!

oh, so foreclosures don't have any affect on other units in the same neighborhood??

have to agree with samadams here...

therealfortgreene:

Unfortunately we do not live in a vacuum! everything around us has some kind of effect, thus when there are lots of forclosures in a given area, all of the real estate in close proximity loses value!

Fayek, I will have to partially disagree with you; many in fact do appear to live in a vacuum!

Which unit gets most sun?
Which ones get the sun rise and sun down?

We are interested in units A and C. Any advice - pros and cons of each?

C and D face south and get the most sun.

A/B/C all face east and get sunrises.
D always gets sunsets. A gets sunsets in the summer only. C gets sunsets in the winter only.

I think A has a much more flexible layout. I don't like the long hallway in C.

Thanks Zinka. How about the lotline in A. Do you care about that?

Do any of them not have lotlines? I know D and A have a major problem with lot lines but what about C?B?
thanks!

Sorr for being ignorant. But how the lotlines will affect your apt?
I've heard that a new building could block the sounthern view & lignt. Is that for both C & D?

Zinka

Thanks for all your information. you seem to be extremely knowledgeable in everything real estate!

The lot lines in A would only be a problem if they built on the site of the BAM Harvey theater. That seems spectacularly unlikely to me -- it's a well-loved theater, owned by BAM free and clear, with a notable historic renovation.

It is more conceivable that other sites on the block would be built on, e.g. the indoor parking garage. These could block the A line's view, but they wouldn't require bricking up the windows.

jj1918, B and C lines don't have any lot line windows. They only face the street.

A and D have some lot line windows on certain floors. They all adjoin the BAM Harvey (see my post above).

Views east (across Ashland Place) are protected by zoning. Views north/west/south are not, so new buildings could block them.

but isn't another big 'glassy' development that has come up already blocking some views from the A-line? What building is that?

You may be thinking of 80 DeKalb. It only blocks the views of Toren, Oro, etc. Fortunately they're all in a straight line, minimizing the amount of view-blocking.

zinka thanks so much for that information! i also think the lots lines shouldnt be a problem in any of the units of you are above 17 and up - no?

zinka thanks so much for that information! i also think the lots lines shouldnt be a problem in any of the units of you are above 17 and up - no?

I think the location is better than Oro or Toren but it's still not great. There were plans for a mixed-use development across on the south side of Fulton, which would have been bad for views but nice for the convenience, bustle and safety of the neighborhood (all of which are more important than views, in my opinion).

Unfortunately I read that instead they will be building a new Shakespeare theatre there. Nothing against Shakespeare, but it means that block of Fulton will be pretty dead on nights when there's no performance. Better for the views though, I guess.

jj, hard to say -- legally you run the same risk with any floor's lot lines, and there's the same likelihood of building on the Harvey Theater (i.e. slim) no matter what floor you're on.

Floors 2-7 have no lot line windows; floors 8-14 have two lot-line windows per unit in the A and D lines; floors 15+ have a whole wall of lot-line windows per unit in the A and D lines.

Post87, the "Shakespeare theatre" (TFANA) was planned all along, as were the mixed-use developments. The mixed-use developments are on hold thanks to the economy, but TFANA is going forward. But it's not an either/or; the mixed-use developments should follow when they can get financing.

whats " lot line " ?

R U Serious?

I think Theatre for a New Audience was originally supposed to be 2 blocks down on Flatbush. In my opinion that's a much better location for it. For whatever reason it got moved up to Fulton when the plans for that mixed-use development got put on hold.

Really, there's no reason they couldn't put TfaNA back down on the Flatbush thoroughfare where it belongs, and put up some sort of decent looking but temporary structure to house some basic retail on the parking lot across from Forté.

What that block needs is a supermarket, not a theatre. A nice Food Emporium or Great Wall with parking on the roof would be a perfect use of the space until the economy recovers and that mixed-use development can be built.

Stupid government urban planners . . .

Why would a theater belong on Flatbush? That doesn't make any sense. BAM and the Harvey aren't on Flatbush, and they're great places to see a show.

The whole BAM Cultural District plans have reshuffled so many times by now that I can't say for sure TFANA was supposed to be on Flatbush, but if it was, it was quite a few revisions ago. More recently it was supposed to be on Lafayette. The most recent reshuffling is because they decided not to eminent domain the Track Data building on Rockwell, so they had to move stuff around a bit.

Let's hope they don't build a supermarket with parking, because that will only encourage overuse of autos in this very transit-accessible area. That's the last thing we need.

There's a parking lot there now, so it wouldn't add any additional encouragement to the use of autos. I'd be fine with eliminating the parking, but the block definitely needs a supermarket.

A theatre would belong on Flatbush because Flatbush is a thoroughfare. People may come from other neighborhoods to go to shows, so accessibility from the main thoroughfares is a plus.

The spot across from Forté has lots of residential buildings around it that are underserviced by retail. From a day-to-day, neighborhood perspective, I'm sure Forté's residents would rather have a supermarket there than a theatre, if the option were on the table.

zinka you have been a great help! thanks! i agree about the parking as well. i don't understand how the lower floors would not have lotlines but the top floors do! shouldnt it be the other way around?

also do you know which are the floors with the 11' ceilings?

Update about the parking lot from last week:
http://fort-greene.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/the-day-a-grand-plaza-of-parking/?scp=2&sq=brooklyn%20academy%20of%20music&st=cse

Brooklyn Paper, april 2009:
http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/32/13/32_13_mm_bam_housing.html

jj: I've got the info you want. That's 3, 7, 14, 22 and PH.

You can get a BAM masterplan from here:
http://www.dbpartnership.org/lookingahead/bamcd/

Apparently it's not 100% reliable b/c of frequent & numerous changes.

Post87: Theaters are destinations. They don't need to be on automobile thoroughfares. They just need to be walking distance from mass transit. Most successful theaters are not on automotive arterials!

There's already a large supermarket nearby (Pathmark in Atlantic Center). What the immediate vicinity still needs is a medium-size grocery store, not a destination supermarket.

jj1918: The lowest floors have concrete walls where the lot line windows would go, so there are no lot line windows on the lot lines.

how different is the neighborhood that surrounds Oro from the one that surrounds Forte? i still dont know what a "lot line " is..sorry

Very different. Oro is on the block with a police precinct and a fire station (= lots of sirens and terrible parking), is far from the subway, and far from any viable neighborhood for restaurants, etc. Forte is on a major street but a relatively crossable one, very close to the Fort Greene Fulton/Lafayette strip, and close to several different subway stations.

this area is considered fringe

Marco: Oro has fewer subway lines stopping nearby, and is a longer walk to the nearest one. Oro is also about a block away from the Ingersoll Housing Project, and the only retail within 3 blocks is a gas station.

Forté's immediate block could use a lot more activity (particularly on nights when the theatres are not performing), but it's much less desolate than that around Oro. Forté also has 9 subway lines stopping within a 3-block radius.

Oro has advantages over Forté in terms of maintenance and amenities, but Forté wins hands-down on location.

Zinka: I don't think of any supermarket in NYC as really a "destination supermarket". People mostly shop in their own neighborhoods, except for a few Fairway or Whole Foods die-hards. The Pathmark is not that far away from Forté, but really it could use some competition in the neighborhood.

interesting..I thot the Oro neighborhood was pretty bad and the view of the projects and empty lots not very appealing.

anything on Flatbush ave is not appealing if you ask me. I think this area will turn into cheap rentals but the question is how cheap?

Post87, you'd be surprised how far people come to shop at that Pathmark. Especially from the east, where other options are few and far between.

I guess I've been spoiled by my other neighborhoods. Manhattan is one thing, but even in Sunnyside we had Key Foods, Associated and Foodtown all within a 5-minute walk of each other.

I'd take this location over toren / oro in a second. The latter only have projects surrounding them. This building has fulton, and the pretty part of fort green around the corner.

I'd put 1BBP somewhere in the middle. No projects, but its completely dead over there.

For some people the price of a unit often is more important than the location. For most people location is key....today the buyer can have a unit in a good location at a great price!

thanks for the tips leom and zinka. agreed fayek.
marco i think the oro and toren are in an awful location.
forte is in a great location and is currently fairly priced. the other place to look at is clermont greene but it is still WAY over priced and is very very far form the subway (i did like the finishes in there though)

jj, you might also look at One Hanson - the prices on the remaining units have come down a lot and it's a neat historic building. My main concern there is that as far as I know none of the large high floor apts have sold, and it's unclear how long the sponsor can carry them. They way overshot the market.

I'm not persuaded Forté is such a great deal at the current new prices. Maybe $400/sf would be a good deal for an upper floor at a building with amenities and maintenance similar to Oro but a location similar to Forté. As things stand, I would say hold out for $350/sf.

I agree with Zinka. One Hanson place is a preferable place. Nicer units, solid quality building with units with views that won't be blocked in the near term.

I thought the units at one Hanson were really nice too but I just can't afford them.
I don't think the Forte's views are going to be affected actually. I also prefer the area around Forte more

One Hanson views are just as likely to be blocked by Atlantic Yards as Forte views are to be blocked by BAM Cultural District development.

Forte is selling really fast at these prices. A little bit too fast, implying they set prices too low.

People could be making offers but watch out - Not many people can get mortgages on this building. They've only sold 30% of the units thus far and are not FHA approved. Don't fall to the hype created by the brokers.

Oro has just come up with the advantage of Rent To Own option! I wonder how this will resonate with buyers/renters?

See my new thread.....http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/16671-as-a-consumer-is-this-attractive

zinka: How do you know that forte is selling really fast?

I'm sorry, where's the evidence for Forté's "selling really fast"? Nothing in contract yet. I realize it's early but I'd like to see some actual closings before I believe this price reduction is working.

It will be interesting, though, to see if Forté can sell out at these prices. They say fools rush in, and eventually you run out of fools. Forté may end up scraping all the persuadable buyers off the market and leaving the other buildings in the area with only an even more skeptical pool of potential buyers.

Zinka: how many contract have been signed? Are they based on financing?

clermont greene tried rent to own and that totally failed. bad idea.
its the european buyers eating up the forte.

JJ, how do you know it is the european buyers. What do you mean by eating up? How many units sold? My understanding is the Europeans are poorer than us here in the US - I am not sure if you know, but their economies are in worst shape than ours.

also jj: clermont greene is not in a convenient location comparatively, so no matter what they try it will fail (unless of course they slash the prices dramatically which will always attract some buyer).
Shall we focus on recent questions raised by myself, post87 and toby..which is...how does zinka know forte is selling fast? Where's the evidence of current rate at which it is selling / getting into contract? Which bank is offering mortgage on a building like forte that made headlines going bankrupt plus which is at the moment less than 50% sold?

JB very true about clermont greene.
as for the other questions i don't have any idea what has or hasn't sold or if contracts are out etc.
zinka?
what i know is from going to see the units. they told me that the bank they are working with is wells fargo. and it was the brokers who told me that there were so many european buyers in the building. speaking of european buyers they are all over the city buying like crazy because the dollar is so weak right now against the euro.

oh yeah i as also told that the european buyers were paying all cash for their units but who knows if its true.

Don't fall victim to the hype created by the broker. According to my broker, there are only 15 offers for the best units in the building - higher floors A & C lines. Also majority of offers are conditional on financing.
Also if you attended the Sunday tour, watch out. Brokers these days are cramming all appointments together within 1 or 2 hrs on a Sunday so they create a false sign of high interest in a condo while many people are just window shopping and nothing else. We've seen this in other buildings where so many people get excited when only just a few units close - Remember financing is still very hard to obtain specially for a building like forte.
I like Forte but I'll wait till the dust settles as I am sure the bank will lower the prices again so they are not sitting on this building for too long.

Good point Toby! I went to the OH last Sunday at noon - it was packed. The broker claimed to be firmly booked all day. But at the time when I wanted to double check a unit I was interested in 1.5 hours later, I only encountered two middle aged males apparently not seriously looking. And there was not a single soul in the sales office.
However, I was sold that 30 contracts were out in the week following the price reduction, which seems true to me b/c most units I inquired about are not available any more.

I didn't take the plunge precipitously b/c the safety & bad school district concerns. Given that 80% of the units are family sized two bd two bth at 1000-1200sf. Would really appreciate some insightful comments on these two cons of the neighbourhood.

I looked into this a little and found there are some pretty good private school options in the neighborhood. The Quaker School in particular is supposed to be good. This can be expensive, but if you're saving a lot compared to living in a better school zone then it may be worth it.

Then for high school, Brooklyn Tech is right down the block if your kid can get in . . .

toby i know i know and i just don't know what to believe. according to my broker all the A and B lines are spoken for. I was not at the tour on Sunday I was there on Saturday morning.
do you really think they will lower the prices again? what i was told is that after this round whatever is remaining will be sold at higher pricing.

Forté is certainly ahead of the market right now but I think it will keep going down. Of course I could be wrong - you never know.

Also, even if Forté sells out, every buyer they catch is one fewer for 1HP. Real estate values in NYC are still extremely inflated, and there is a finite pool of buyers.

I'd say wait for your pitch, or if you want to make an offer make it a low-ball and don't budge. Even if you miss out on Forté you'll probably be able to get a much better deal on a 1HP unit next year. ;)

I spoke to a broker yesterday about setting up an appointment, and he led me to believe that it was 2006 all over again telling me that I should only come if I was prepared to make an offer on the spot. He said they have 38 offers so far. This same broker called me at 8:00 on a Saturday night two weeks ago(he only got my name through a signature at an open house of his), so something smells of desperation rather than confidence in selling this building. Pretty turned off by the broker's attitude.

Good to hear your view Post87. The brokers made me feel like I was missing out on the deal of a lifetime...and I was also fed the same line about this being 2006 all over again. But who knows maybe they did sell all those units. Nothing shocks me anymore - over in Williamsburg buildings with much shoddier construction than this (i mean really crappy buildings) have sold out at much higher prices and that neighborhood stinks....

Glad to be of service, JJ. ;)

I'm assuming you don't, for life reasons, absolutely need to buy right now. If you can wait a year or two then there is no reason to fall for high-pressure sales tactics. The macroeconomic trends are in your favor.

Post87 - I'm looking for kindergartens. PS20 is notoriously bad and the enrollment keep dropping by double digits in recent years. There are a couple private elementary schools near Hanson, which are all too small in scale and not reliable. One of them even doesn't have a library: can you think of a more basic facility other than toilets for a shcool?.
Quaker looks pretty good but it's religious, pricey and difficult to get in. A long 10 blocks walk from Forte (in this respect, I'd rather take Toren for my kid's sake.

leom

Quaker looks pretty good but it's religious, pricey and difficult to get in. A long 10 blocks walk from Forte (in this respect, I'd rather take Toren for my kid's sake.

Do you think Toren's prices will be slashed to compete with forte's prices any time soon?

Excellent perspective, Post87! 80 DeKalb seems to be joining in soon. Another 300+ units!

Fayek - First, Toren is a better product (aesthetics, finishes, amenities), hands down. 10-20% higher than Forte's price would be acceptable - I only speak for myself. Secondly, the maintainance there is lower. Every $500 less in monthly maintenance makes up for a 100k mortgage at 5%.
Toren's best penthouse asks for $800/sf right now. In the absenc of a dramatic across the board slash, if you can negotiate 20% down individually, I don't think you'll be worse off than with Forte.

leom, i have no opinion regarding any of the three developments mentioned. but you should be aware that NYC provides bus transportation for elementary school children enrolled in private schools (must be on the school route and at least a certain distance from the school). just a FYI.

i don't think Brooklyn Friends is that religious, more of a social/moral bent. Packer Collegiate is excellent.

Leom:

I will agree that Toren is a better product than Forte HANDSDOWN....!

Thx aboutready. I'm vaguely aware of the school bus system.
After intensive research, I haven't found any good elementary school within walking distance of Forte or in Fort Greene proper. Packer & Saint Ann's are in Bkln Heights, Bkln Poly Prep & Berkeley Carroll-Park Slope, Quaker - Downtown.
All those have very limited seats. If your kid can't get admitted in (not to mention the 28k tuition), there's no decent public school as back-up.

the tuition is a killer, particularly with more than one child. are there any plans to open any new schools in that area? it seems as though the Bloomberg administration has become more aggressive in terms of opening new schools.

Have you listened to NPR this morning? Another budget cut for public schools. My wife and I had a chill at the breakfast...

$400 at Forte.... and you still have WB/LIC asking in the 700s-800s, right?

Insane.

Have you really been some where else for awhile and haven't cought up with the current market?

LIC: 5th Street Loft was recently in contract at $570;
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/67102-condo-509-48th-avenue-long-island-city
Powerhouse is asking around $600 for higher floor;
Arris Lofts: $400; The broker told be #310 could be had for 1.05-1.1M for 2778sf, which is in the 3!!!
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/441653-condo-27-28-thomson-avenue-long-island-city
The View has slashed 20% off but doesn't sell at all @ 700-800.

WB:
1NSP penthouse, 1578sf interior + 350sf terrace: initial asking 2.02M, now 1.27M, still 5-7% negotiatable.

Yes, there's plenty of insanity. I smell there'll be more...