Wjy we want to live in Manhattan

Because there ´s a lot of blood running through its veins

For me, as a transplant from California, Manhattan IS New York. I came here because I was attracted to the vibrancy, convenience, green space and architecture that's concentrated in Manhattan, but hit-or-miss in the grey, low-rise, too-quiet boroughs. And if I lived outside Manhattan, I'd find myself wanting a car, which is a thought that has never crossed my mind here.

But then again, I'm a single guy trying out one of my dreams. I'm sure if I establish myself here, I'll eventually find somewhere suburban that I find suitable. And start saving money.

(Sorry for the renter's perspective on the sales board, but I was just pondering this today after winding down a 3-month search for my 2nd Manhattan apartment.)

Thanks hal - and then again, if you establish yourself, you might want to stay here for all the reasons you first stated (two cars in the suburbs add up to a lot of rent/mortgage payments in the city)

Speaking as a parent, some schools in Manhattan are excellent, as good as than any suburban schools.
In fact I would be scared to move to a suburban area, with all the jocks and the meatheads, the bullies, the stultifying boredom and rampant drug/alcohol addiction. I find kids here to be incredibly poised and knowledgeable, almost scarily sophisticated.

I find the diversity of people and cultures very interesting. Living in the suburbs you typically only meet people who are very similiar to each other. I enjoy walking around the many neighborhoods in NYC and sampling the foods and visiting the shops. I enjoy seeing independent films and going to the theater which are activities that are limited in the suburbs (although there is Netflix). As someone who is married but doesn't have children, I feel more comfortable living amonst people who have all types of living arrangements as opposed to mostly families with children.

I like living in Manhattan because there's a Costco.

lobster - when, and if, you have children, do you think that the diversity of city would remain an a reason to stay here? Schools may be a problem here, but does cultural diversity, actually access to culture (museums, theater, dance, )very individual shops, rather than mall stores, great restauratns, neighborhood as well as destination, ability to travel around without a car balance that out?

I do truly understand that schools and house space count for a lot, but it's the question of why people still try to stay in Manhattan.

And are you serious about Netflix being somenow the equivalent of all that New York has to offer?

but Alan, there's still no Target, is there? (which is so frustrating)

And there's only one Costco in Manhattan, which is really unfair.

But, if Costco and Target are what we look for, then both of us shoudd be in a suburb somewhere.

Not enough to make me move

Its fun to be here until you have a second kid. Until you break into the 3rd bedroom arena, the 2 bed and no car compares reasonably well to the house plus two cars. I agree with lobster...but I think when you have a kid and then another, those things are tougher to take advantage of...its also forgotten somewhat that if you live in a nearby burb you can come in on the weekend and take advantage of many of these things. Oh and the taxes are a bitch. Once you make $500k or more the price you pay for the priviledge of being here is tough to deal with...especially since at best it buys you a decent PS thru only 5th grade and then you are on to the next educational fire drill. I must admit, I like walking culture. Ok back to the flip side....everyone who lives here 'loves to get away' when they can...there is something telling about that.

@ Maly: You dont think there are bullies in Manhattan. Dont you watch Gossip Girl? Did you ever watch Kids back in the day. I think stultifying boredom you are talking about the sticks, not a decent NY metro suburb.

Oh Rhino, you've already given up on the city.

And all those people in the "nearby burbs" don't really come in that frequently to take advantage of "these things" - they just say that so they feel better about paying a premium to be closer to their jobs in Manhattan.

Ask them next time - when was the last time they just came in to do stuff in Manhattan, and I'm not talking about coming in to see the tree in Rock Center

Or, more to the point, how often they do that (probably once every two to three months) when you can just walk out your door and have the city spread before you for adventure.

Target in Marble Hill is technically in Manhattan (by some measures), so no need to move.

It's been said that New York is not about the destinations, but rather everything that happens along the way.

Honestly who cares? Listen I think the city is great, especially for single people and couples without kids. Since you're picking over my post, I'll pick over yours. Access to individual shops is an advantage for children? May be a stretch. Manhattan is a great place to eat and drink, I'll admit that. I would venture that not only to people in the burbs exagerrate their visits to Manhattan...but the people in Manhattan exagerrate their visits to museums and theaters. Manhattan is all about convenient consumption. Don't pretend its all so high minded. Right, and if by giving up on it you mean I struggle to rationalize the taxes, private school tuitions and hoops, and the lack of space you get for a dollar....again for families of four or more...then yes. I'd say more accurately that I just dont value what the city has to offer against the tradeoffs that amplify with the second kid and school options beyond the fifth grade. Adventure? Oh give me a break.

All this said, if you are pulling down $1.5-2mm+ consistently, then sure stick around. Anyone in the $300-500k range or even up to $700k or so has a harder time examining priorities and relative lifestyles. Sure there is not much to argue with if you have the 7-room here, a place in the Hamptons, a car and you're covering the tuitions easily.

I love living here because I can leave at 7:20pm for an 8 o'clock show at Carnegie Hall and never break a sweat on my there.

If I want to shop at 3am, I can do that.

If you love culture, NYC is the best place to be.

If you like to stay home and be one with the TV or the internet, that's fine, no point spending money to do it in NYC.

What I love best about NYC is that if you'd consider moving out of NYC, you're clearly not as cultured, intelligent or active as someone who wouldn't.

I have never seen Gossip Girl, I have seen Kids. Kids reminded me of my own rotten overprivileged private school youth. I am sure the decadent culture still exists, but I'll take New York schools over suburban options. I think bullying is more tolerated in the heartland, where the American myth of rugged individualism lives strong. New York has one of the highest proportion of foreign-born people, I find that reassuring. I think the daily confrontations with other ideas and cultures make people here less gullible and susceptible to groupthink.

Ok, lets get one thing straight here...I am no proponent of the heartland! Haha. I do support diversity, but in my neighborhood I see it mostly in the building staffs. My wife travelled all over the world as a kid. She was exposed to the top 2% in many different countries! Her parents are very liberal and open minded. They will entertain both Obama and Hillary Clinton, and will consider all manner of prep school options. I grew up in a suburb and I knew kids whose dads names were on buildings in my high school and other kids whose dads were janitors.

I grew up in a car-oriented city, and it always just felt...dead -- like you could go the whole day and never really encounter anyone except a disk jockey. The real challenge in life was finding parking. I spent so much time at the mall -- hell, I went to Wal-Mart for fun.

I think the biggest thing for me is that New York's a walkable city -- it's a city that you experience from ground level, rather than through a car window. (Which, to digress, makes me wonder about people who take those bus tours -- it seems like missing the point.)

Don't get me wrong, that's not some anti-car, pro-bicycle, hippie-dippy critical mass thing -- I had a beautiful car back home, with a lot of room and a huge engine, and I still miss it. (I don't miss the 17 mpg, though.) But there's something to be said for a city you can live in on foot, and NYC seems the epitome of that.

Member previews at the Met and MOMA and the Whitney; weekend workshops at the ICP; Frontiers in Astrophysics at the Hayden Planetarium; cocktails on the mezzanine at the Met on Friday and saturday nights; member breakfasts at the AMNH; daily turtle count in Central Park; open air dinners at the Sheepmeadow Cafe on summer nights in Central park; bird watching with the Birdman from the NYHistorical Society; walking my husband to work through Central Park; brunch at the Asia Society, or Fred's, or Ducale; shakespeare in the park in July and august; New York Film Festival in September; New Yorker Festival in October; Macy's Parade on Thanksgiving; Store Window Displays; subways; taxis; walking; ordering in any meal of the day; grocery delivery; browsing galleries in Chelsea; walking the highline; Central Park all to myself on a cold winter day; Central Park with a million other people on a warm spring day; walking from 82nd street to southstreet seaport for fun; Friday night at Sunnys in Redhook; and I'm just getting started...

Manhattan is fabulous and nowhere in the states compare. Fabulous people live in Manhattan. It's the center of the world.

If you want to live in Podunk, leave the city. Ewww, I always wonder where people go when they move out of New York?

I shudder just thinking about it. Scary.

My first language is English, so that precludes a lot of the other cities that I would consider living in. I like the human density, architecture, walkability, convenience. I never feel lonely as a housewife with young children even if I don't make it a point to meet up with people - we just walk out our door and boom! humanity. I love that my partner has a short commute and is able to work fairly long hours and still come home for dinner and work out/see movies during the week to preserve his sanity.

Yeah, the whole school thing is a turnoff but not enough to make us move. Sure, I could live in the burbs and come exploring but the reality is my laziness would take over. I love that when I get a sitter during the week, I can be in Qns/Bk/downtown checking some new hole-in-the wall restaurant out.

I disagree that the part of the city my kids see (my fault, I suppose) is that diverse and the diversity is not necessarily a "good" type of diversity.

Great thread. I am struggling with the idea of a move out to the burbs (Maplewood, NJ) which is a pretty diverse town with the feel of a small Westchester nabe. I moved here from a town in N. Jersey in 1981, married young and raised two children in Chelsea/West Village. The kids went to Greenwich music school, West Village nursery, PS 3, IS 89 and my daughter to Laguardia HS, son went to a private HS.

I started out being a musician, stumbled into RE at City College, my (ex)wife is an actress and comes from an entertainment family, so the kids enjoyed a lot of travel and were encouraged to be creative. They both had a great, diverse education and wonderfully diverse friends growing up downtown (daughter is currently in school in LA and her roommate is a friend from PS 3).

We were very close to pulling the trigger on a house in NJ about 3 years ago,made an offer which the sellers luckily refused. But it was on our excursions to NJ to open houses that opened my eyes to the pending RE crisis, everything I was reading about was happening there, but not here...yet. So we put off buying and I modified my business plans (quit my firm, started my own).

I love NYC for all the reasons and more stated above, "problem" is wife thinks she would like to have one baby, and we cannot afford a home in a neighborhood where we would want to raise a child in NYC.

This is more of a vent...I really don't want to leave Manhattan, love my wife and I don't want her to feel like she missed out on the mommy experience. She has a great relationship with my kids, they are closer in age to her than I am to her...lol. The idea of living in the suburbs sounds good...until I get there and then I start to get a pit in my stomach Oy.

Rhino86
about 9 hours ago
ignore this person
Ok, lets get one thing straight here...I am no proponent of the heartland! Haha. I do support diversity, but in my neighborhood I see it mostly in the building staffs.

Wow, can you be more of an arrogant whining asshole than that? Living outside of NYC means that your building staff would be a proxy for your neighbor? What if your neighbor was a "gay translating accountant" but was white?

The financial bubble has made this a tougher decision than it should be....or then it was in the 1980s and 1990s. I suspect there are many like you (and me) for whom its tough to weigh all these positive against financial realities. It would be very tough to recreate the experience with your second wife.

HFS: Do you want to meet somewhere and talk this out? This is unnatural for you to follow me from thread to thread.

It is the only walking city option. Lived here for 8 years without a car and bought one under duress.

The best schools in the country.....if you can get into them.

Central Park and Riverside Park.

It is very kid friendly. Both little ones and teenagers. Teens embrace the freedom not tied to your drivers license. Strolling all day with your kid, stopping for cocktails when they simultaneously fall a sleep in the Phil and Ted. THAT's something to celebrate.

Always something interesting to do.

Mingling with famous people.

Smart, interesting people tend to surround you.

Sense of community. Walking on the street and always seeing everyone you know.

The corner bodega guy who knows exactly what you want when you want it.

DELIVERY!!! Delivery of everything you could ever imagine.

Shall I go on?

The elitism here is kind of gross.

Rhino - you mean it's not elite to think, as you do, that the ONLY way you can raise a family here is to live in a classic 6 or 7?

I am not saying its the only way...And I dont think its elitist to prefer to raise a family of four in more than 1500 sqft. What is elitist to me is the inferiority ascribed to people who see another way vs Manhattan, or are probing the tradeoffs... As if people in a suburb are inherently less intelligent, active, etc than people here...and making that decision would be selling out your kids, your intellectual curiousity, your ability to drink a glass of wine on a dime. Sorry but the people here in Manhattan are no more intelligent than anywhere else.

Saying I want a certain amount of space, and may not be willing to pay what it costs to get that much space here in Manhattan is much different than saying its the only way. Only in Manhattan would it be accused as elitist to say 1500, 1200 or 1000 sqft is not ones preference for a family of four sized space.

I love NYC, but Rhin85 makes a very valid point that it is very difficult to live a comfortable life here when you have more than two (and maybe) one child(ren). A three or four bedroom apartment is beyond the reach of many families besides all the money that it takes to raise children in general. Having grown up in the suburbs near NYC, I know that most people don't visit the NYC that often but for children, it's nice to have a backyard. I'm not at all against raising children in NYC, but I can see both sides of this story.

Sorry - I meant Rhino86

KeithB, Maplewood is a lovely town. One of my brothers lives a few towns over and the whole area is very nice. Yes, it's a little different from NYC, but in actual driving distance, it's pretty close and he and his wife do many things in NYC with their two children (musicals, restaurants, shopping, etc). Yes, you have to drive everywhere instead of walking. I'm sure that you know all this and I can appreciate that you have some difficult decisions to make.

Papaya King. case closed.

The problem with Maplewood is that their are too many couples just shacking up, living in sin ... just get married already, persons!

Lobster its so elitist to suggest that 900 sqft is not enough for a family of four. BS aside, sharing bedrooms is fine for same sex kids... But even then, you need a big enough common space for spillover. Unless of course you want to live like an animal.

there, not their

...NYC dogs; pet-friendly apartments; dogs off-leash in Central Park before 9:00am and after 9:00pm; the magical puppy store on Lexington in the 60s; the dog run at the AMNH; NYC dog walkers; hot dogs in Central park; Katz' Deli pastrami sandwiches but don't loose your ticket...

slgslc, I can't look in the window of the puppy store on Lexington in the 60's because I want to take all the puppies home with me and have to restrain myself from going into the shop and "buying" all the puppies. Although in truth, the next time that we get a dog, we'll go to a shelter. But the puppies in the shop window are so cute.

What's not so adorable are all the painful diseases and disorders those puppies will develop as a result of inbreeding.

I like to watch the puppies and the people who are watching the puppies. Ditto on getting a dog from the shelter.

to live in the city, you need over $1M in salary to afford it. if you want green space, you have to be uptown by central park. if you work downtown, you end up traveling the same as the people from some of the burbs. there are plenty of towns/borough locations within 10 mile radius that have restaurants, bars and theatres and also have backyards for the kids. you want to go to the city, take your car for 15-30 minutes and you're here. a person living on BPC will take 30+ minutes to get to the Met, Lincoln Center, etc. let's not forget that for the next X years, the subways will somewhat run as all the repairs are going on nights and weekends.

Single/Married No Kids in Manhattan = Great
Add Kids = Murder

As for the bullies, they exist everywhere. Drugs, give me a break. Burbs or the city, drugs are available, just in the city if your dealer is "away", there will be another one on the block or the next one.

-burp-
nycers speak so pretty and can spell to boot.

...the atmosphere on late Sunday afternoons when visitors/ tourists/ shoppers have gone home and people are just running errands or going out to eat or to a movie, squeezing the most out of the weekend before Monday morning comes around...

Thatz bc thy gotta work their asses off m-f to pay for their 'homes'.

slgslc, for you the city is perfect. you can have fun while your partner brings in the $$$$$$$. you'll be able to afford the private schools, expesive gyms for you and the kids, lunch for $300 for you and the kids, and a $30 per hr babysitter when you want to go out. the reality is, the middle class can't do 10% of what you do in one day, in one month and afford to live in a modest apartment.

there are people with kids who make $500K+ and live like a $100K+ household in an expensive burb.

I had dinner last night with two young women who grew up in the suburbs and are determined to raise their kids in the city--one is in Bklyn, the other in Manhattan. They both recalled feeling trapped and isolated growing up in lovely leafy communities. They don't have million dollar incomes,plan to send their kids to public schools and love walking to sociable playgrounds, storytime at the library (or Barnes and Noble), and having other kids in their building for playtimes. And the half-hour, door-to-door commutes are priceless.

I like living in the city for the following reasons that I don't think have been mentinoned yet...
I have a 10 minute bike ride to work.
I have more time to spend with the kids (sorry but the commute does mean a lot).
I can run out at 9pm once the kids are in bed to meet friends and not worry about driving, trains, buses, etc.
Food deliviries from Fresh Direct, Trader Joes, Whole Foods.
I can participate in a variety sports leagues and not worry about missing the bus or train like my suburban friends.
The green markets are great.
I don't want to devote time to additional chores that come with owning a house.
4 other kids live on my floor (great for playdates).

No matter what your price point, no matter if you rent or buy, you can always get a better deal or bigger space for the money somewhere else. Personally, I love the suburbs too (Is there a thread about what do you love about living near NYC but not actually in it?) OP asked why people decided to live here despite the hassles and irritations. (But you are right ab-11218, I am totally busted (please disregard posts if they don't really count.))

I want to live in Manhattan because I was frickin' born here and my father was frickin' born here and its essence is in my DNA as much as any other genetic material. For the record I was raised in well under 1500 sq ft (okay I am an "only") but you could go downstairs after school and play out front or in the street without "playdates". By the time I was 12 I had full run of the city, subway by myself whereever and whenever...and we did. Explored the culture and the underbelly to its fullest extent. Had friends and enemies of every ethnic background (there are a few that weren't prevelant in NYC then that have emererged since), never participated in organized sports (just as well as I have terminal white girl disease) but spent hours watching some of the greatest playground ball in the country, grew up on Balducci's produce, Jeff Market beef, Murray's Cheese and Faccio's pork when all were just neighborhood stores not foodie shrines; hung out at what were then working docks on the Hudson River (we made out in the trucks before gay guys claimed the turf. Went to a great elementary school, inner cities schools after that and managed to on to an, until recently, fairly succesful career.

And you think I missed out on WHAT exactly?

On the other hand, given the restrictions placed on kids today, I see middle schoolers walking parents or nannies, and with increasing diversity of the suburbs while good public schools including my alma mater look more like Greenwich, CT or Jackson, MS circa 1958 I'm not sure where I would raise kids today. I lived in 350 sq ft until I was past childbearing age (unless I was willing to be infused with chemicals) and as has stated a bazillion times on SE even a 900 sq ft apartment is beyond the reach of most families in Manhattan, programs like Mitchell Lama and yes, Sty Town/PVC are long gone and once affordable neighboorhoods (W Village, UWS,East Village etc) are now way out of reach.

For young adults, Manhattan can't be beat for night life...period. For parents...living here adds hours to your day either home or office....For seniors, no worry about being isolated once you can't drive. But for kids in 2009, almost a toss up.

Thank God for 1971.

If you want a big house and a big yard, why even put up with the expense, traffic and hassle of NYC suburbs? You can get a lot more for a lot less in the suburbs of any other U.S. city, or you can live in a suburban "city" like Los Angeles. There are people in the NYC suburbs who make $500K and live like a $100K household in suburbs of, say, Houston, Atlanta, etc., or even to a somewhat lesser extent Philly or D.C.

If you want to be in or near NYC, it is expensive and involves tradeoffs. And, what some think are compromises, other think are perks. Billions of people from cities around the world have grown up without a "backyard for the kids." This isn't some NYC trait (and, of course, backyards for the kids do exist outside Manhattan).

Lizyank, You always make so much sense. You cut through all the crap and always tell it like it is.

Thank you lobster...always nice to hear my rants appreciated. Sometimes i know I sound like I'm 85 years old but I'm most assureidly (notice the spell check generation spelling)--I just hate what has happened to the city I loved warts, porn shops, loose joints and all. Of course I'm more than a hypocritical myself, like the time I stormed into my (late) mother's apartment ranting on the topic of yuppies ruining the 'hood and she replied "I was going to completely agree with you until I noticed the Hermes scarf you're wearing".

i suspect that we are of the same generation. yes, nyc is not what is was in many ways but there were a lot of rough spots in the good old days. just think of all the fun in the subway with no air conditioning.

You should see the looks I get from young friends and colleagues when I tell them they complain about the A/C on the train being a little off and I tell them there used to be no a/c at all. On the other hand, it was really cool on outdoor lines when the windows were open and the overhead fans were going (unless of course the cane seat snagged your mandatory for school hose).

i only took the outdoor lines to see my grandmother which i did on a fairly regular basis. i love your line about being 12 and having the run of the city; that is exactly the way it was. still, i have no fond memories of sweating body parts on the subway.

We took the outdoor lines to Grandma's, Coney Island and since (to my eternal shame) Daddy was a Mets fan--the Dodgers heritage and all that, to Shea Stadium. But the 7 (then just called the Flushing) line had all the new "modern" cars because of the 1964 World's Fair. ("Part of the Fun of the World's Fair Is the subway special that takes you there"...scary I remember that commerical since I hadn't entered first grade but maybe I was destined for a career in advertising a long time before I knew it. Why God, couldn't I have been born with a natural affinity for something more lucrative?

By the way, for my fellow Boomers (aka "old farts") you MUST see the 25th Anniversary Rock and Roll Hall of Fame concert on HBO. Sign up for HBO for a month if you don't have it now...Springsteen alone is worth the price of admission.

i don't remember the commercial but i sure remember going to the world's fair on the brand new flushing line. was trying to remember the letter name of the subway that went to avenue j in brooklyn pre Q line.

we don't need to own 2 cars, walk to work (and everywhere else) and come home for lunch. come back and exercise in my treadmill... in another place i'd be home with toxic fast food for the family after a long commute and have a big ass... (this is just cause i get fat easily... i'm not saying people in suburbia are fatter ...)

also cause of the diversity and the fact that not everybody and their dog go to church. but, that said, i'm 100% sure i'm not gonna live my old days here (if i do reach that age, we will see)

Liz, thanks for elaborating on my Costco rationale for Manhattan.

CC, it wasn't the CC -- it was the QB and the QJ, on the Brighton Beach Line. Of course.

There were no letter name for the subway lines then. Avenue J was on the Brighton Line, today's D train.

The CC was the 8th Avenue local FYI.

Alan I'm not sure if your rationale isn't stronger, as soon as I can figure out how to schlep a Costco size anything on the 6 train.

I could be happy in either Manhatttan or a suburb on the train line. That is likely because I grew up just 20 rail miles from the city and don't happen to think that it is the center of the universe. I think that people who think that may not know first hand how great a proper suburb is. The town I grew up in was in close proximity to museums, theatre (paper mill playhouse), great restaurants (italian, thai, japanese, mongolian, whatever you want), a number of town centers and we even had foreign films (the lost picture show). You just have to pick the right suburb. I also find people in the suburbs a lot more welcoming.

Personally, I don't find much more diversity in Manahattan than I did in Maplewood, NJ (KeithB, great place to live). There is diversity in NYC, but not so much in Manhattan. As for the shopping, Manhattan has become full of the suburban type shops (Kmart, Home Depot, Banana, Gap, J Crew, Victoria Secret, Costco, Ann Taylor, etc.), so barring places like the village, which is becoming less and less interesting, shopping is not as unique of an experience as it once was in the city. One big advantage of the suburbs is that when you buy into a town, you buy into the schools, which is apparently different in Manhattan, at least for high school.

I stay in Manhattan because I don't want to commute more than 10 - 20 minutes to my workplace. Yes, I could have a bigger apartment somewhere else, but if I have to take MetroNorth, NJTransit or a subway, what's the point?

FYI, I've commuted from both NJ & Connecticut. I've also lived in Chicago. I'd definitely move back to Chicago. Nice place and great people.

Wow you have a really pleasant perspective. I agree 100%. My least favorite part of Manhattan (again) is that such a value judgement is made on people who consider the alternative. And usually that value judgement is made by someone of marginal intelligence anyway, ironically.

East 71, love your post. I grew up in Short Hills, great place but HIGH taxes, but with great schools. The diversity in the wealthy suburbs is there, but everyone is generally upper middle class, so it is slanted. I really don't think that when most of the people are of the same or similar socioeconomic class whether they be white, black, hispanic or asian that there is much diversity though. Likewise on the upper east side when the kids are insulated from the middle classes and go to the UES private schools, that they get much of a diverse educational/life experience. The diversity is there, but depending on how the parents guide their children, they can lead an awfully insulated life. Also agree, Chicago is a nice place.

"For me, as a transplant from California, Manhattan IS New York. I came here because I was attracted to the vibrancy, convenience, green space and architecture that's concentrated in Manhattan,"

For ME, as a transplant from Pennsylvania, who all my life dreamed of living in New York, I have to admit my attitude was the same when I first moved here in the early '90s.

But when I first moved here, I couldn't afford Manhattan, so I did Brooklyn ... biding my time until I could join the "fabulous" people in "the city".

But guess what? Now that I'm here, it seems that all that "vibrancy" and energy that first attracted me to the city has by and large left Manhattan and has moved to ... BROOKLYN!

That may be trite, but I'm sure most of you get my drift. Manhattan, by and large, has become way too "white bread" for most of us who moved here for diversity and excitement. There are no more "edgy" areas, like the red light district on 42nd Street, or the Meatpacking District. I'm sorry, but Stella McCartney, Apple, and Bo Concept are not "edgy". They're not even "culture". If I wanted to live in a sanitized high-end mall, I'd move to Beverly Hills.

Last summer I attended an event in Peekskill. I couldn't get over how quaint the town was, with funky, offbeat stores and (even more important, in my opinion) coffeehouses. Remember coffeehouses? (NOT Starbucks -- REAL coffeehouses.) A place where you could hang out with friends, meet new friends, discuss politics and philosophy, listen to underground music. Manhattan USED to have those, but thanks to economic forces, businesses like that can no longer survive in Manhattan (unless they have a an "off-the-books" business operating out of a back room).

A good friend of mine -- Maine native, Manhattan resident for 30 years -- told me he's considering moving back to Maine. I told him "Oh no! You CAN'T leave NEW YORK!" He said "Honey, I'm not leaving New York -- New York left ME years ago."

Very true. I'm starting to feel the same way.

Brooklyn is also too expensive. Maybe the Bronx, Queens or Harlem for real vibrancy. And Manhattan is like Scarsdale now.

Manhattan still has an ace up it's sleeve - I can walk to work in 10 minutes.

Rhino86 - you started out with a genuine and heartfelt response to the question - and then, as uaual, got defensive, and began demeaning anyone who disagreed with you. Anyone who disagress with you has made a value judgement on you, personally? And of ,course " usually that value judgement is made by someone of marginal intelligence anyway, ironically".

Right, anyone who disagrees with you is "someone of marginal intelligence" and anyone who agrees with you is brilliant.

My impression of the nearby train towns is of a SUV, soccor games, Home Depot monoculture. Which isn't very appealing, and one reason why I'd rather live in a suburb in another metro area which isn't as materialistic as NYC.

and, penthouse lady, when you told me emphatically that i don't qualify as a new yorker, you were?

making a value judgement based on no facts? or?

CC- do you live in New York?

Your posting name certainly would indicate that you don't, and the fact that AR posts that she will meet you for dinner upstate when she's there in a few weeks?

Am I making a value judgement, or just a judgement based on information posted here.

"Manhattan still has an ace up it's sleeve - I can walk to work in 10 minutes."

My friends who work for Smith Barney used to be able to say that too -- until they moved to New Jersey.

My friends who work for Citicorp used to to be able to say that too -- until they moved to Connecticut.

Same thing for other friends whose jobs moved from Manhattan to North Carolina.

The diversity of cultures = happy tummy. I just got up and felt like getting breakfast out, walked half a mile from my house, and had a wonderful cafe con leche and two chicken tamales for less than five bucks. If I'd gone in a different direction it could have been a croissant avec chocolat chaud, or hand-rolled bagels with Thai ice tea.

Hard to do where I grew up in the suburbs.

ali r.

so, because i don't endlessly brag about my terraces and fire place and repeated outings to cultural events, you assume? don't you understand that you epitomize exactly what rhino is talking about?

Ali you just made me hungry all over again....(:

Matt makes a valid point that many parts of Manhattan are very similiar in spirit to affluent NYC suburbs although having lived in both, I do see some differences. Living in a more adventurous neighborhood isn't always the best fit with people who get up early in the morning to go to work as opposed to artists, musicians and writers whose work hours are more varied. Is Manhattan better than Peekskill or Maine- probably not. Is Manhattan the only place that most of us would live- probably not. ph41, you haven't told us why you live in Manhattan?

"I just got up and felt like getting breakfast out, walked half a mile from my house, and had a wonderful cafe con leche and two chicken tamales for less than five bucks. If I'd gone in a different direction it could have been a croissant avec chocolat chaud, or hand-rolled bagels with Thai ice tea."

I hope you walked right over to a gym after all that.

Ph I was sucked into the sanctimonious singularity. I didn't start it. Bronx boy good ironic point. Forch porch good point. For most it's more about bagels than museums or enriching their kids. Everyone ultimately has to price the bagel.

It's not that they don't agree with me that makes them stupid. It's that many of them went to rollins after their parents shelled out a half mil on primary and secondary school.

CC - as in Columbia County - you still haven't answered the question.

And Rhino wants but can't have, which is what he initially posted, then got defensive (as you have) and resorted to name calling.

"Living in a more adventurous neighborhood isn't always the best fit with people who get up early in the morning to go to work as opposed to artists, musicians and writers whose work hours are more varied."

My point, however -- speaking as a writer whose work hours ARE varied -- is that Manhattan no longer has the same "adventure" that it once did.

Basically, after hours, your only options in Manhattan these days are bars and 24-hour diners.

That's not culture. That's just eating and getting drunk.

You'll find those same options in other cities.

now, i'm defensive? of what? your judgement of me? isn't that a little self important? actually, a lot. and, rhino certainly doesn't need me to speak for him but i don't think of him as defensive.

CC - Columbia County - still haven't answered the question.

why would i? you're the one who enjoys bragging, not me.

At the sime time, some culture has become much more portable. 20 years ago your only hope for access to music, film or books was to have a physical store/theater/radio station in your area. This was unlikely in most of the country, and a real benefit to NYC. Now those things are equally available everywhere thanks to Amazon, Netflix, Rhapsody, etc.

In Manhattan, it's possible to feel all at once completely individual and part of something bigger than you. There's something in the shared experience. Being in the city for me is about being really close to people without ever really having to be disappointed, overwhelmed by them, having to feel responsible for them...I can share the living...squeeze up against them on the train, fight for a cab and be surprised when I win by forfeiture, wait in line with them, see the unending list of fresh items in the market...the sheer amount signifying the confidence that they will come. I take heart knowing someone wants that very item and I have no idea what it is. It makes me feel small and I like it.
I like to watch. I like to read. I like to learn. The anonymity of it all, all those lives going on out there, where else can you see into a stranger's home? The dichotomy of that.
It isn't too dissimilar from what happens here on SE...I like to read the way people live. I like to hear people's stories. And the varying and opposing viewpoints is NYC.
Nobody is drinking the kool aid of suburban life.
Watching others live their lives fully and beautifully helps me to do the same.
NYC will change every day forever...it's nice to look in the rearview mirror if it helps you move forward. I like to think my best experiences in NYC are the ones that are about to come.

I specifically am refering to non-mainstream film/music/books.

Matt, it's hard for me to believe that artists and writers in Manhattan/ Brooklyn don't meet somewhere and talk about their work and other issues. I admire writers very much and if I were fortunate enough to make a living as a writer, I would probably want to break up the solitude of my writing hours by meeting with other artists in coffeehouses or bars for some conversation. As ChasingWamus states, culture is much more portable. But there is something special about discussing ideas in person.

"At the sime time, some culture has become much more portable. 20 years ago your only hope for access to music, film or books was to have a physical store/theater/radio station in your area. This was unlikely in most of the country, and a real benefit to NYC. Now those things are equally available everywhere thanks to Amazon, Netflix, Rhapsody, etc."

Which is why there's a dramatically diminished demand for live music venues -- and subsequent shrinking of such venues -- here in New York. Hell, you can't even see a movie in Manhattan past midnight anymore -- the big movie chains (the only ones that can survive in this city with the stratospheric rents -- hello, paging Columbia County, another example of a barrier for "small businesses" -- and now we're saddled with their suburban-style movie schedules.

**********

"Nobody is drinking the kool aid of suburban life. Watching others live their lives fully and beautifully helps me to do the same.
NYC will change every day forever...it's nice to look in the rearview mirror if it helps you move forward. I like to think my best experiences in NYC are the ones that are about to come."

As long as your expectations for those "best experiences" aren't too out of the mainstream for our new "Disneyfied", "family-friendly" sensibility and happen before the carpets are rolled up before midnight.

cc - Columbia County still haven't answered the question.

And answering it certainly wouldn't be considered "bragging", just answering a very basic question asked of someone (you) who posts very often on SE about NY real estate.

"Matt, it's hard for me to believe that artists and writers in Manhattan/ Brooklyn don't meet somewhere and talk about their work and other issues. I admire writers very much and if I were fortunate enough to make a living as a writer, I would probably want to break up the solitude of my writing hours by meeting with other artists in coffeehouses or bars for some conversation. As ChasingWamus states, culture is much more portable. But there is something special about discussing ideas in person."

We do, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to do so because we're all scattered hither and yon.

Time was, we all lived in the Village. It was easy to gather because we all lived within walking distance of each other. Then we got priced out by Susan Sarandon and moved to Chelsea and the Upper West Side. Now we were just a "little" scattered. Then along came Demi and Wall Street money. Then the entire island exploded with money (money, of course, that WE weren't making). Hello Brooklyn! Then along came the Clinton/Giuliani years, and the dot-com boom. We had already surrendered Brooklyn Heights, and now we had to surrender Park Slope.

Today, there is no real community of writers. Yes, there are writers' groups, but they're rigidly scheduled and organized, since it's such a project just to bring us all together from our far-flung neighborhoods in Queens, the Bronx, Brooklyn, New Jersey, Connecticut, and now, increasingly, Hudson River Valley towns. Even those writers who still live in Manhattan by and large live up in Washington Heights and Inwood.

Gone are the days that writers could have an impromptu gathering in Manhattan. Unless you're talking about television and screenwriters, they just can't afford to be here anymore.

ph41, as far as i know CC lived and owned in Manhattan for a very long time and now he is still quite close to it. The same with me, but I live 5000 miles away, and want to own again in the city. I wonder if this in any way prevent us from saying why do we think people wants to live in Manhattan.

Good afternoon, Mimi. Please excuse the following forwarded message.

Matt, Dorothy Parker asked me to pass this ("Bohemia") along to you:

Authors and actors and artists and such
Never know nothing, and never know much.
Sculptors and singers and those of their kidney
Tell their affairs from Seattle to Sydney.
Playwrights and poets and such horses’ necks
Start off from anywhere, end up at sex.
Diarists, critics, and similar roe
Never say nothing, and never say no.
People Who Do Things exceed my endurance;
God, for a man that solicits insurance!

matt: move to maine already.....then you can be mainematt and sell your drivel somewhere else.

so, when you moved here in the 90's, you hung with the hipsters in the village?

Ph help me understand how I have suggested that I want what I can't have. I've neither said that I want it nor have I said I can't afford it. I have simply said I question the price tradeoff relative to the other nearby options. You have quite a little superiority thing going.

that's pent house lady for you. busy on the terrace. getting ready to attend her third significant cultural event of the week. the reason why for years when traveling I always tried to steer the conversation away from where i came from.

i vote with lizyank--its all about where you come from.