rental markets continues free fall with no end in sight

I think your market pronouncement is a bit too broad if you are limiting yourself to the apartments that would be rented by people out of college or business school or law school or a few years after that.

This portion of the market free-falling doesn't help families or more mature professionals and doesn't much factor into the renting to buying ratio.

its all deflating

Well you cited cause and effect. And your cause doesn't support your later statement about ALL.

I think it supports it. The new supply coming on the market is on the luxury end. So you have people not only exiting the market on the low to mid end, but you have an over supply coming on the high end. seems pretty clear to me.

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/16-mercer-street-in-soho-nearly-rented-out-within-30-days

I'm pretty bearish overall marco and I think we'll continue to see a fall in rental prices. BUT, I know that law firms and banks have been hiring (true, there are fewer banks), but GS, Morgan, BofA, BarCap, Nomura, all have been hiring a ton. Also, associates at the top 20 law firms are hitting 2200+ hours, so I think we'll see some lateral hiring there as well.

Probably won't see Cravath hire 150+ summers again, but the necessities of having enormous numbers of associates (i.e. e-mail and regulation) have not changed.

Anecdotal, evidence I know, but I would expect stats to lag (as every banker/lawyer probably creates 2-4 jobs in NYC).

How do ppl see the property tax increase in the coming months to effect the rental market? Will more people be persuaded out of the buying market and into the rental market?

I also think (and yes, this is anecdotal) that the market for under $1m apts for a small family is much more plentiful than the $1m-$1.5m market. What I've seen is that there are MANY more apts sitting on the market in the under $1m range than $1m-$1.5m. When doing a search for 2/2 apts in each category it comes up that many more apts over $1m are in contract than under $1m. As someone who has seen most (if not all) of the 2/2 apts on the UWS, UES, and Flatiron, I can vouch for the fact that the under $1m apts need drastically too much work than I personally want to put in, and thus, am almost being convinced to stay in the rental market. I can't imagine I'm alone in that thought process ...

If it is either a real rental building with a rental management company vs. a longterm coop conversion, or if it is a condo owner etc., then the prices aren't any lower than they were in 2006. So there are a lot of people who last rented 3 or 4 years ago who don't see lower prices on their rentals. They may be lower than a renewal in summer 2007 through summer 2008, but unless you are moving annually, you mightn't see evidence of that. Part of this is that owners' costs are up from 3 or 4 years ago, and expecting them to rise especially taxes, so theres less room to cut.

the hiring on the street doesnt even come close to offsetting the losses that have come since 2007. net we are still way down and most of those jobs arent coming back. thats the point. theres more supply than there was in 2007 and less people. doesnt take a genius to figure out what the result will be.

"the hiring on the street doesnt even come close to offsetting the losses that have come since 2007."

sure marco, but look how you titled the thread. You are trying to make pronouncements about where the future will be compared to NOW, not compared to 2007. Yes, wall street employment is down from 2007, nobody is arguing otherwise.

But if you are going to say the rental market continues "free fall with no end in sight", then logically you need to demonstrate why you think things will keep getting worse compared to NOW.

These repeated 2007 comparisons are a meaningless strawman for your purposes.

the problem persists. we have even more supply today with more coming than we had in 2007. therefore prices continue to decline.

Owners do not pass on higher costs to renters. They get what the market will bear.

Re. Supply:

Then why is the Manhattan vacancy rate not higher than it is? CitiHabitats reported 1.84% in December down from 2.24% a year ago in Dec.08.

I dont know how those vacancy rates are calculated and i definitely wouldnt trust citi habitats when it comes to anything. I just go bu what I see and I see this market continuing to deteriorate.

marco_m, do you think there's some shadow demand for Manhattan rentals...people who moved to the outer boroughs and will move back to Manhattan now that rents are down a little?

people coming from the outer boroughs will be the only source of demand. that in turn is gonna drop prices in the boroughs as well

So Manhattan rents will stabilize while rents in outer boroughs will go into "free fall?" Is this what you're saying?

I am amazed that Brooklyn has held up as well as it has. Its no longer a good deal compared to Manhattan

at some point rents will stabilize, i just personally dont see that happeneing anytime soon.

Marco --

As I said, I am bearish. But you can't say "the hiring on the street doesn't even come close to offsetting the losses that have come since 2007"

We lost three banks -- ML, Bear, Lehman.

BarCap had a very limited equity trading practice in NYC and a decent but not huge FI business -- with LB, they now have a significant sized practice in both areas.

BofA -- had a decent sized NYC office, but had pretty huge teams in Charlotte and Chicago -- now there is far more activity in NYC b/c of the ML acquisition

Nomura -- had nothing in NYC of size, has gone out and hired a ton of ex LB people to build new FI and equity trading business areas.

Morgan and GS have been hiring aggressively since the fall -- GS is probably nearing the size they were and MS probably is another 1-2 years away.

JPMC -- the Bear folks were pretty much swallowed into JPMC, and yet JPMC is out there doing a ton of hiring.

RBC is building up a presence in NYC.

So to say there is no end in sight is a bit misguided ... it will take time to catch up to where we were there is definitely movement in the right direction. And from my experience, firms are looking to hire people from outside the NYC area.

Agree with SamAdams, weird how bklyn has held up.

My bet is that rentals fall to $3500 - $4000 for a 2 bed with doorman, etc. in Manhattan -- though obviously battery park, hell's kitchen, harlem will be lower.

actually I can say that becuase I work on the street and I know what Ive seen. But hey..only time will tell.

Spiny. 4/5 units rented when the LL 'priced to rent'. Whooooppppddeeeeeedo. Let me say it in kanadian. Whopppppdeeeeedo oui.

Avm. No matter what data you look at, we are currently in a downward compression w regards to rentbuy/credit/housing formation and the all important 'can't lose on NYC re!' mantra of the last 10 years. So given rents and buy are substitutes and one continues down (rent) unabated means buy will follow. Given enough time ppl will sub buy for rent thereby dropping rents further (it's circular) until for whatever reason one mkt holds firm. In this case with decreasing credit, I expect 'rent' mkt to firm first. So back to op.
1) housing formation was artificially high in the last 10 yrs, many ppl buying multiple 'homes';
2) you are right these smart bankers/ lawyers having seen their prior peers go into UNICEF/ teach America or just being unemployed, the first they'll do in NYC is pay full asking rents! They should meet petridish.

"I am amazed that Brooklyn has held up as well as it has. Its no longer a good deal compared to Manhattan"

the last market report said.. it hasn't. Numbers were actually worse than manhattan.
There was an entire thread on it, look it up...

students rent too
universities' and other schools' enrollments are not declining, are they?

Once a time when 'full heloc' parents heeded no mind to rental prices in NYC. Some actually bought for their college kids. If we just get back to pre bubble 'normal' w regards to the number of units of housing needed for NYC, me thinks rental rates pretty welled lubed and screwed.

No end in siiiighhhhtttttttt

> universities' and other schools' enrollments are not declining, are they?

wait, no, ha, seriously... have we really just stooped to ""college students will save NYC real estate market!"? no more irish carpenters.

rents aren't going up - I think, though, that when people refer to the season influx of people graduating from universities and prof schools to start jobs in the fall and that influx going away this year, it bears mentioning that the seasonal influx of students doesn't halt - and not all students were being bought coops by parents - they mostly rent, and I'm not talking about $3,000 1-brms

lowery...no jobs for the students hence no renting

A further reason for the market to fall is the perccent of bonuses that will now be in stock. People live to their income and with their income now being given in sock that can not be sold for 3 - 5 years, people will be cash short.

""Wall Street firms added about 1,000 jobs in December, though total employment in finance was still down by more than 16,000 positions from the end of 2008, the data showed"

- from the new york times today..thats why there is no end in sight

students rent with or without jobs, but I'm not advancing that as any kind of salvation of the rental market - just don't look at the fall influx of new hires as the whole of the rental market

> - from the new york times today..thats why there is no end in sight

After yesterday's announcements, I have to figure at least a few open positions will no longer be open...

Even if banks start hiring at the old pace, that doesnt replace the 2008 and 2009 non-existent classes. And yes, it impacts the whole market because normal outflow didnt stop, if anything it accelerated. Unless banks hire 1.8x the class in 2010 and 2011 to offset the -70% class sizes of 2008 and 2009, then there is an imbalance of inflow/outflow that persists...and oh yeah gets worse because of new rental building completions and condo conversions. Face it NY is headed to Boston pricing.

i love when someone digs up one of my gems

PS: administrator, why do I need to receive an email to tell me someones comment has been deleted by the moderator. Please fix that.

Marco, was that one of yours? I always had a pet theory that the ratio of prices in NY vs. Boston or Chicago for example had blown out during the bubble...and that somehow it could be looked at extracting the anomalous years say 2005-2007 when financing was stupid and banks were liberal about taking bonuses into affordability equations and figuring out what back to normal is.

??

"Even if banks start hiring at the old pace, that doesnt replace the 2008 and 2009 non-existent classes. And yes, it impacts the whole market because normal outflow didnt stop, if anything it accelerated. Unless banks hire 1.8x the class in 2010 and 2011 to offset the -70% class sizes of 2008 and 2009, then there is an imbalance of inflow/outflow that persists"

And, of course, hiring folks in the groups most likely to leave (folks entering the analyst programs and new MBAs) isn't going to fill the gap of the layoffs and non-hiring of more permanent positions...

what i find interesting is that most all of the new lux buildings in williamsburg try and charge really high rents - 2700- 3000 for a 1 bedroom and then just SIT AND LINGER on the market for months and months - like 65 anislee - who would pay those prices when you could live in lux building in manhattan for same price? i also looking at 184 Kent ave and they are some remote planet far from reality - as if people would be pay that high of rent to live that FAR FROM SUBWAY and in middle of warehouse and deserted streets etc.

how many months free are they doing in williamsburg? Its got to be at least 2?

Whole markets were created with the idea that there were going to be thousands of new hedge funds every year... Slow motion disaster.

one very bearish thing i have been hearing is that LIC waterfront rental buildings are emptying out and have very high vacancy now.

Rents down 25% in Manhattan doesnt help LIC.

An observation:

It seems pretty clear that for various reasons a lot of new dev condos are moving at a glacial pace, at best, toward lower, building clearing prices -- apparently with reliance on various reserves, lender forebearance, some hope/delusion that things will turn around, not wanting to scare away those in contract not yet closed, etc....

On the other hand, don't rental buildings have more incentive to move things to market clearing prices. It seems a little harder to point to a rental building and say -- that "ask rental price is ridiculous" ..because they have more incentive to really rent the place, asap, don't they? My point -- are they really crazy at say 184 kent...or do they think they are going to get that? [i assume that both the lessor and lessee will look at all advertised numbers and discount by say one or two months free rent...since that is apparently so common now]

Its all a calculus for them... If they make low marks on some of the units, every expiring lease is going to push for that new low price in this new era of max transparency. Beyond calculus, there is psychology. People just don't want to take a low price. They will fight it beyond what seems logical or optimal. The only part about it that makes some sense is that the initial entry for a tenant will be a mental anchor for their whole time there.

comin to the end of another month and the same places all still sit empty

Mostly when I see places still on the market, they aren't being well marketed by the broker and the owner. My observation is that a lot of good places are moving. The people over at Truffles Tribeca got their building fully leased in 6 or so months. But on the other hand I am seeing though a lot of places that are not very well maintained sit on the market, owners think that their apartments are cash cows and not realizing that they have to do work. Those who clean, fix up, present well, price well, and don't stick renters with big upfront broker fees without offsetting free months concessions are renting out relatively quickly.

http://afinecompany.blogspot.com/2010/02/change-in-perception-in-wind.html

Just a quick note on current market conditions. Change is in the air.

Rental Market: What a difference a few months makes! Despite seasonal factors, which usually see inventory levels climb, I have seen the opposite this winter. One reason is that over the past several years there has been a trend where landlords have been stacking their vacancies into the April-October period by writing leases longer than 12 months in order for them to end during the active time of year. However, I think lower rents and incentives have also helped New York retain more people than would be ordinary in a hot market. The bad news for renters is, it appears that the party is just about over. Sure, you can still get wild incentives in the Financial District and Far Midtown West, but established neighborhoods are starting to see better pricing power. I have encountered numerous prospective renters of late whose perceptions of a hyper-renter's market have been shattered. The fact is, inventory is actually down significantly over the past several months and landlords are slowly and cautiously wising up to the fact that they no longer have to give it away. Is there a huge rebound in pricing coming up? I tend to doubt it given the continued weak jobs picture and the surge of inventory that we will see in the spring, but it does look like the bottom has been reached.

Sales Market: It is night and day compared to 2009. It looks like we are setting up for a period where the perception gets ahead of the reality. As I have mentioned in the past, after a nuclear winter of sorts last year, things started to pick up last Spring and accelerate into the summer and fall. Most of the activity was concentrated to the under $1 Million market. The market has been changing this winter. First, the activity has begun to trickle up to the $2 Mil.-$4 Mil. segment. Second, while everyone is expecting great discounts (and many are getting them), the volume of prospects in the market and attending open houses has picked up significantly. There have been sporadic bidding wars, but at the same time, these are at the new normal (lower) prices, and most have kept their heads and budgets in check. It looks like a fairly stable market, but everyone should watch out for a marked increase in positive perceptions of the market near term. The reason is simple. Last year was so bad that this year's numbers are going to look explosive. It would not surprise me to see year over year increases in 1st quarter sales that seem amazing. I am sure that there are going to be some very dramatic and positive headlines, but remember, these are against numbers when the earth stood still! Nevertheless, perceptions can drive a market and these reports could result in an increase in pricing power in the short term. If the jobs picture and overall economy improves during that period (big ifs), that increase will stick. The best advice in this market bears resemblance to an old OTB commercial: "bet with your head, not over it."

Granted this is from a broker...I'm not looking to looking to buy. Looking for a rental (current month to month situation).

if things were getting better and people were coming into the city and seeking new places to live, then why would there be any incentives? could it be that there is greater slack in the rental market then people even thought?

flaTOny
about 6 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse http://afinecompany.blogspot.com/2010/02/change-in-perception-in-wind.html

Just a quick note on current market conditions. Change is in the air.

Rental Market: What a difference a few months makes! Despite seasonal factors, which usually see inventory levels climb, I have seen the opposite this winter. One reason is that over the past several years there has been a trend where landlords have been stacking their vacancies into the April-October period by writing leases longer than 12 months in order for them to end during the active time of year. However, I think lower rents and incentives have also helped New York retain more people than would be ordinary in a hot market. The bad news for renters is, it appears that the party is just about over. Sure, you can still get wild incentives in the Financial District and Far Midtown West, but established neighborhoods are starting to see better pricing power. I have encountered numerous prospective renters of late whose perceptions of a hyper-renter's market have been shattered. The fact is, inventory is actually down significantly over the past several months and landlords are slowly and cautiously wising up to the fact that they no longer have to give it away. Is there a huge rebound in pricing coming up? I tend to doubt it given the continued weak jobs picture and the surge of inventory that we will see in the spring, but it does look like the bottom has been reached.

Sales Market: It is night and day compared to 2009. It looks like we are setting up for a period where the perception gets ahead of the reality. As I have mentioned in the past, after a nuclear winter of sorts last year, things started to pick up last Spring and accelerate into the summer and fall. Most of the activity was concentrated to the under $1 Million market. The market has been changing this winter. First, the activity has begun to trickle up to the $2 Mil.-$4 Mil. segment. Second, while everyone is expecting great discounts (and many are getting them), the volume of prospects in the market and attending open houses has picked up significantly. There have been sporadic bidding wars, but at the same time, these are at the new normal (lower) prices, and most have kept their heads and budgets in check. It looks like a fairly stable market, but everyone should watch out for a marked increase in positive perceptions of the market near term. The reason is simple. Last year was so bad that this year's numbers are going to look explosive. It would not surprise me to see year over year increases in 1st quarter sales that seem amazing. I am sure that there are going to be some very dramatic and positive headlines, but remember, these are against numbers when the earth stood still! Nevertheless, perceptions can drive a market and these reports could result in an increase in pricing power in the short term. If the jobs picture and overall economy improves during that period (big ifs), that increase will stick. The best advice in this market bears resemblance to an old OTB commercial: "bet with your head, not over it."

Granted this is from a broker...I'm not looking to looking to buy. Looking for a rental (current month to month situation).

no one here will believe you. it's more fun for them to believe that the housing market in nyc is doomed and will never recover.

vacancy rates are indeed lower than they were 12 months ago. this has led to less discounting in rent. you can bet that it will lead to less incentives in the next 3 months or so. BUSINESS AS USUAL

if things are ok, then why do incentives still exist ? there will be a recovery eventually..just not this year.

You're delusional. You've been calling the non-existent rebound for 6 months now, but it just hasn't been the case in the segments I track. I'm sorry, but 6 months ago you just didn't see 4000 sq ft prime UWS townhouses coming to market straight at $13500:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/619728-rental-333-west-87th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

Obviously when owners are paying OP and offering incentives things are not "ok", if we take "ok" to mean the way things were a few years ago.FAR from it. However, totally anecdotally I will say that the Rockrose buildings on River Terrace which last year were offering 2 free months plus OP (and there were still tons of vacancies) are this year offering only one month plus OP, and there are very few vacancies. BTW I am a broker, but not a residential one, so this is devoid of agenda and just something I noted when talking to the leasing woman the other day.

what agenda could i have? inonada, did you see this townhouse? do you have any idea what it's actaully like? price should reflect, among other things, condition.

there is LESS inventory this year than last, there are FEWER incentives this year than last

i didnt say we were back to 2007, only that it is not the doom and gloom you bears like to think it is

i'll say the same thing, try and find an apartment that you would actually be happy to live in. then see that the asking rent is, what incentives are offered, etc.

What if we take "ok" to mean prices discounted to levels prevailing in 2000?

this is by the way, someone who completed over 70 rental transactions last year, and 11 already this year, so im pretty qualified to talk on the subject.

what are your day jobs?

"i'll say the same thing, try and find an apartment that you would actually be happy to live in. then see that the asking rent is, what incentives are offered, etc."

Wake up in the morning, and continue to breath, otherwise you might die.

Yum....breakfast with broker!

Rhino86
3 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse "i'll say the same thing, try and find an apartment that you would actually be happy to live in. then see that the asking rent is, what incentives are offered, etc."

Wake up in the morning, and continue to breath, otherwise you might die.

you have been an impossible loser forever.
what in the world does your posting mean anyway>

NATIVES ARE RESTLESS!

Rhino--wait are you saying that 2000 levels are where we are at?

Yes, I've been saying that for a while....and then someone in the business said it in the Times a couple of weeks ago.

but wait...im probably wrong. people with nothing better to do with their time except to spend 10 hours or so a day on streetsleazy say so.

Jim, oh thick one, it means that find an apartment where you'd like to live, that you can afford, and ask what the rent...is a pretty funny piece of advice. Its like asking for analysis of the Superbowl and being told "I think this one is going to go to the team that puts more points on the board". How do you define loser? Is it by the quality of my insight? You are clearly a winner in that department.

Can any rental broker tell me what those really large (bill themselves as maybe 1150 sq feet or so)units at the west coast(95-97 building) facing the river go for now? They are technically loft/studios with a 1/2 wall defining the bedroom area?thnx!

www.rockrose.com

ask their onsite leasing people

but i don't think there are any current vacancies

Rhino86
25 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse Jim, oh thick one, it means that find an apartment where you'd like to live, that you can afford, and ask what the rent...is a pretty funny piece of advice. Its like asking for analysis of the Superbowl and being told "I think this one is going to go to the team that puts more points on the board". How do you define loser? Is it by the quality of my insight? You are clearly a winner in that department.

Rhino, its the best piece of advice that you or any other know-it-all on this site is ever going to get. again, it is very easy to stare at your screen all day and declare yourself an expert on the manhattan rental market. your "expert" (read, uninformed) opinion is that the rental market is going to continue to go down. you are completely wrong. it went down, it has more or less stabilized. that is reflected in LOWER VACANCIES. since the market more or less works on supply and demand, that means prices will go up and incentives will go away. it's the way things work.
now again, get outside (probaby very very rare for you), make a few appointments, and go out and see some of the bargains out there. you will find that most of the really really good deals are that for a myriad of good reasons, but it all boils down to the same thing: they are undesireable.
if you find an apartment you really like, chances are it will either be:
more expensive than your "expert" (read, uninformed) opinion believes it should be
carries few or non incentives
has demand from other prospective tennants

so you are wrong

nyg
10 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse Can any rental broker tell me what those really large (bill themselves as maybe 1150 sq feet or so)units at the west coast(95-97 building) facing the river go for now? They are technically loft/studios with a 1/2 wall defining the bedroom area?thnx!

sorry, I forgot, its www.tfcornerstone.com now

by the way, obsessing abouut square footage in rentals is silly

@nyg What you describe is approx. $4000-$4400.

tf's website is showing one with an "osbtructed" north view for just under 4k, so at least 4.4 with the view

i think this speaks well to supply and demand. hot apartment, no vacancies, higher rents

rhino thinks perhaps they should pay HIM to live in that kind of space

Jim I never said the rental market is going to fall. I said the purchase market is going to continue to fall. I think people should go out an unabashedly take advantage of this attractive rental market. The ratio of cost to own if off the chart, and anything renting around where it did 10 years ago cant be bad.

Does it make you feel good to call me a 'rental bear' and then slay me? I'm not a rental bear at all. Although I do think rents could get lower as developments and vulture buyers turn condos into rentals. However, logically genius, I cant consider rentals too expensive and purchases too expensive unless I want to live on the street.

Its really strange to me that you have invented a reality where I have demanded that rents continue to fall.

Rhino86
about 4 weeks ago
ignore this person
report abuse Even if banks start hiring at the old pace, that doesnt replace the 2008 and 2009 non-existent classes. And yes, it impacts the whole market because normal outflow didnt stop, if anything it accelerated. Unless banks hire 1.8x the class in 2010 and 2011 to offset the -70% class sizes of 2008 and 2009, then there is an imbalance of inflow/outflow that persists...and oh yeah gets worse because of new rental building completions and condo conversions. Face it NY is headed to Boston pricing.

read what you wrote.

Thanks guys for the info re: west coast--the only reason I ask is because I lived in one of those units briefly in 2000. My recollection is that those units were renting at the time for 3,095 or thereabouts? I was curious in response to rhinos assertion that we are currently at 2000 rental prive levels, which seems way off to me.

On the rental side, are we that far from Boston pricing already?!? The idea behind this post is that rents will not run away to the upside, saving the condo/coop market.

But Jim, if you weren't so stupid, you'd know that I am primarily a bear vs. buying. Therefore, I rent. So I am not really advising anyone to wait out the rental market at the same time they are waiting for the purchase market to settle.

Honestly, though, what the fuck is your point? If you're a rental broker primarily, and people have little choice in that matter of renting... Why should you care if I think the finance industry has hit a meaningful change and its defacto world capital might be looking at shrinking to less of a premium to other major US cities? My rage against purchase prices if anything helps you.

here is what is happeninng:
1. vacancies are down (except of unattractive fringe type residential neighborhoods)
2. landlordsd are noting the decrease in vacancies, and are pricing accordingly (slightly higher than winder 08,early 09)
3. incenttives are taken away (very few paid brokers fee PLUS one month, or multiple month free, now its an either or scenario
4. prices will slowly increase going into the traditionally busier rental season
5. incentives will be taken away
6. incentives will probably return for some in fall, winter 2010 for less desierable properties

"rhinos assertion that we are currently at 2000 rental prive levels, which seems way off to me."

Isnt there a little bit of a rate of neighborhood change story over the last ten years in that location? Listen its not just my assertion. Its been beaten up on this board and pretty well vetted with charts and graphs from Jonathan Miller and the whole magilla.

i don't really care. except uninformed and unchecked stupidity on this board makes people think that they are going to get someting that they are not.

Jim when people need to rent, people need to rent. Its not like buying. Why on earth do you feel the need to make a pitch. Someone has a job here that starts in June... Are they able to consider this decision?

and i am far from stupid

"i don't really care. except uninformed and unchecked stupidity on this board makes people think that they are going to get someting that they are not."

Listen stupid. You just predicted the future direction of the rental market. All I am doing is predicting the future direction of the purchase market. I never suggest that the current market is something that it isn't...and that people can get something TODAY (purchase or rental) that is outside the scope of it.

What is your IQ? SAT? Anything. You seem very dull.

You're not very smart... Your train of thought is off the track.

Grown man asserts "I'm not stupid". I feel like that's the response of a fourth grader.

How are you smart, if you are suggesting that I am advising people to neither buy nor rent? You are on the short bus.

You're the one that came at me out of nowhere, Corky.

remember, streeteasy has perhaps 20% of the picture of the rental market...so if you base your opinions on what is available here, you are basing it on a very small window

doesnt matter what people here say...markets gonna do what its gonna do. right now the market is clearly saying the demand is not there...we'll revisit this next month.

what do you base that on marco? that the demand isn't there?

I need to understand why Corky thinks debating the direction of the rental market is useful...especially when I a de facto proponent of renting. [cue Corky looking up de facto]

if the demand was there...there would be no incentives. brokers would be charging renters full boat instead of owners paying the fee. pretty simple connection

Well we know there is not the demand there was in 2007. I would think as we clear out the silly buyers, and given the relationships at play... You could see some sellers to renters.

sigh....rhino, i am a long way from stupid....i may have a different opinion from you, and despise your online persona, but i am not stupid. i don't need to look up de facto. i don't usually have to look up anything really. so get off this track. i'm smart enough to make an easy living where i dont really have to work that hard, answer to anyone, show up at any particular time, etc, et al. and that makes me smarter by itself than 95% of people you will ever meet.

Does it make you smart to argue that I want people to neither rent nor buy? Does it make you smart to attribute my bearish rants on the purchase market to the rental market and then attack me? Hint: no.

why are you chiming in then on a rental discussion. shall i just tell you to fuck off, keep your uninformed opions to yourself?

I didn't realize only double-digit IQ broke-whores had good opinions...and UNBIASED ones to boot!

blah blah blah. yes coming onto streeteasy and spouting your uninformed opinions based on information provided by a website no doubt makes you smarter and more expert than i am.

have you ever rented an apartment to someone?
have you ever sold an apartment (not your's) to someone?

i have done both: many many times over.

your opinion is based on what is fed to you by people like me.

i am not even going to respond to the whole intelligence thing any longer, its an obvious waste of time and unimportant

Let him have it, Corky! Go Corky!

i am curious, can anyone tell me on this site what percentage of real estate transactions in manhattan are facilitated by a real estate broker?

and by the way, you are both dating yourselves with the corky reference....badly