Why should I buy? Convince me!

What induced you to go apartment-shopping here, when you work and live in Connecticut?

If the girlfriend lives and works here, your appeal to her may be that you're in CT and have to be dealt with only on weekends. Don't throw a wrench in the works.

It's obvious that you are happy in CT. Why should anyone try to convince you to move? It's your life.

It's hard enough to compare renting in NYC to buying in NYC. It's even harder to compare renting in CT to buying in NYC. Need to know exactly what premium you would place on living in one over the other. But from the looks of it, doesn't seem to make much sense for you to buy in NYC given your life and job situation.

NWT - My girlfriend and I both prefer the city life to the suburban life, but I'm looking for someone to somehow justify the vastly higher cost (even ignoring the crappy commute). My girlfriend already made the move back to the city and she wants me to follow her back. She has a small studio apt that I crash at on the weekends, but it's not sustainable to live like that.

Why are buying in NYC and renting in CT the only choices? Why not rent in NYC or buy in CT?

6/half dozen, but some of your bullet points? noyb re what the seller pays the broker or what you think is sensible. if you want the co op put in your $58x bid and let it roll. RE tax deductions being eliminated - not happening unless some eejit decides to further implode the housing market. will toss over a hooray if you are really getting 8% on an investment.

If you think the co-op is doesn't have much appreciation - why don't you just rent in NYC? Or even better, if you can swing it, get a short term rental in NYC and carry both for a few months?

You're making the question too complicated. It's new job versus new girlfriend. She answered it for you by moving back to town.

Nobody's worth commuting two hours every day.

inonada - It's not the only scenario that I've considered. Renting in the building that I've identified costs around $3200/month. Also, living full time in NYC would still incur the 6% income tax differential and the 2% commuting costs.

The other scenario that I'm giving serious consideration to is getting a cheap share in CT (< $1k) and spending up to $1.5k (ideally < $1k) in NYC. With my girlfriend kicking in her share, that would give us around $2700-2800 to spend in NY.

romary - that was painful to read. Maybe try posting again after sobering up?

I should add that I would need to be in CT for 183 days to avoid the NYC taxes...

NWT - sensible words! If it were only so easy!

I figure that I want to keep the job at least another 18 months as I anticipate a promotion.

And the girlfriend is a keeper. Aww...

LOL NWT.

NS, You are missing a trick by simply assuming that the clearing price on the co-op is "list price minus 3%." You should either hire a buyer's broker to get a better sense of pricing or start doing some of your own serious homework on the apartment's comps, because in your current quick-and-dirty scenario, you're probably overpaying by $10K.

Also, I'm not sure you're a great co-op candidate. I'd say renting might make the most sense for you.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Thanks Ali. I'm sure that there is room to shave at least $10-20k off the ask price. Whether it's reduced commission, or negotiating on the price. A couple of examples: a unit 13 floors higher with the same layout sold in Dec 2008 for $590k. In March 2005, a similar unit 7 floors higher went for $490k!! If you can get me that price today, then let's talk!

Also, why don't you think I'd be a good co-op candidate? I've got the 25% down covered in my trading account and I have additional cash balances that I think should be sufficient cash cushion. I also have a fair amount in retirement balances that can be drawn upon if the shit really hit the fan.

Are you looking at places near Grand Central only? I would assume so but wanted to verify.

inonda - Ideally, yes, the place would be near Grand Central. Last year I did the reverse commute from Murray Hill (10 min walk to the train) and that was tolerable. I've also done the reverse commute from Wall St and that sucked. I currently do it from Upper West Side (takes about 20 mins to get to either Harlem 125th St or Grand Central) and it's pretty crappy (2 trains).

Ohh, and I currently have a 5 min walk to the office. That's worth something too!

Listen to Ali who says things much more nicely than others might. You are a poor coop candidate. And somewhat naive based on why you think you are a good one. Retirement savings are all but meaningless to a coop board. If you are in a position that you have to invade retirement accounts to pay coop bills--even in an emergency--they don't want you. They 25% down is a requirement, so that isn't exactly something weighing in your favor. It'll be gone when you buy. What the coop wants to see is about 2 years of mortgage and maintenance payments in the bank AFTER you close. At least that is what many coops would like to see in order for you to be considered a terrific financial candidate. Some may accept less, but the less you have the less desirable you are to the board.

Then there is the part about the NYC coop being only a part-time residence. Most coops require that the apartment be your primary residence. In addition, you are not married and to the extent you plan on a contribution from your girlfriend, coops know all too well what everyone else knows: girlfriends come and go. If she isn't a co-buyer, they will judge your financial position based solely upon your own income. Having a job in CT isn't great either. If you are young and haven't been there that long, the coop may question job stability and your own stability in terms of where you will be in 6 months or 12 months. Coops like consistency. Stability. No drama. No cutting things close. People who are no trouble. You will have to package yourself that way.

The point is, even if you disagree with any of this, is that you may be less ideal a candidate than you think for a NYC coop. Frankly, the whole NYC thing sounds like a huge headache to add to your life right now. I love owning, but man, you sound like renting would be SO much easier in terms of keeping life simple.

First and foremost, Lucy and Ricky moved from near Grand Central to the country, and never moved back. If they're happier in CT, so are you. The Mertzes are not essential.

Second, you need to add the substantial transaction costs into your numbers. 10%ish gone.

>You are a poor coop candidate.

This is a grand central area co-op. You think they have the same strict standards?

kylewest - Thanks for the thoughtful response, but you missed some of the details and made incorrect assumptions. It's funny that you and Ali are so confident that I'm a bad candidate w/out knowing me.

1) If I purchase in NYC, then I will be a full time resident. That's why I mentioned the tax implications.
2) After the down payment and closing costs, I will still have a good bit of liquid assets left over. Adding the next projected bonus and I'll easily have two years cash to cover mortgage/maintenance.
3) I've been at my current employer for nearly six years. I think that counts for stable in today's job switching world.
4) I didn't say that the Board will give primary consideration to my retirement assets, though I'm sure that they appreciate that I have it though in case I lose my job.
5) It's not ideal, but I can still comfortably pay the monthlies if my girlfriend moves out. If you play with the ballpark #'s that I gave, you would calculate that the montlies are around 3400. Divide that by pre-tax income of roughly $16700 and you get 20%. Definitely affordable.

It sounds like you've done a lot of homework re: the financial aspect of things. I would caution you, though, that a co-op board will NOT take into consideration your GF's contribution unless she is a co-buyer. So, if your debt-to-income ratio (with GF) would be 20% but would be greater than 25% WITHOUT the GF, then the co-op board will likely reject you. 25% debt-to-income is generally the acceptable limit for co-ops.

Also, projected bonuses are not considered assets as they are just that--projected. They are not accounts receivable (which ARE considered assets).

One thing to keep in mind is that your assets also include things like valuable artwork and jewelry. People sometimes forget that.

i'll convince you of something. how about you stop dicking around and propose - or break up. because that's why she ditched you in ct.

bramstar is right. jewelry. if you like it, put a ring on it, and she'll happily move back to connecticut with you. boys are stupid.

>>In March 2005, a similar unit 7 floors higher went for $490k!! If you can get me that price today, then let's talk!<<

You don't need to introduce a buy-side broker to negotiate as long as you've done your homework. A lot depends on the unit's condition, views, floor height. I don't know that you will achieve a 2005 price but there is absolutely no harm in trying. It is useful that other units have traded in the building in recent years--this will give you a good idea of trends for that particular building. Also expand your research to neighboring buildings and the area in general.

If you really want to go the buy-side broker route but are trying to save money you could look into the Burkhardt Group, which offers a rebate to the buyer of a percentage of the sales commission. I haven't actually had occasion to use them myself but the owner and one of the agents are contributors to this board and it sounds like a pretty good operation.

NS, I don't know you, and I'm certainly not trying to rag on a potential home purchaser. But you seem to have an easy confidence that's often not the right tone for a board.. (and this is coming from someone who takes a pretty thorough beating on these boards for her perceived-as-snooty Harvard background.)

For one thing, the fact that this conversation started "convince me" -- well, boards tend to want people who aspire to them, not people who have to be convinced to settle for them!

Buildings do generally hate unmarried co-purchasers (I know, I bought my second co-op as one). They can't discriminate based on marital status, but they are going to scrutinize your finances *as though* you have to carry the apartment yourself. There are buildings that will push to 30% d-t-i, but you'd want to sound financially conservative to the point of stuffy, and that's not the picture I get from the words "trading account" (or, frankly, that you would adjust your state residency in order to avoid paying NYS taxes.)

I don't think it's impossible for you to buy a co-op, but I would proceed with caution. KW is right that a board will also probably be looking for heavy post-closing liquid (i.e., non-retirement) reserves.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

I'm not sure why this thread turned into whether or not you're qualified for the coop purchase you are considering. You have a steady income of $200K, are looking at a mortgage of $450K, and will have $80K in cash after closing. Piece of cake IMO.

The first order of business is for you to decide between NYC and CT. You know what each will bring you, both at rough costs you can afford. Once you have figured that out, then you should decide between buying and renting. Given that you are having trouble on the whole NYC vs. CT thing, then that should push you away from buying.

bramstar - Thanks for the helpful response. The trend is definitely up in the building. The 2004 price 11 floors higher was $380k!! The only two transactions with similar views from 2010-present have been in the low 600's, so I imagine the seller isn't to eager to move for a low ball bid. Even the 2009 recession prices were in the high 500s.

It's certainly worth negotating and I didn't mean to convey that I was just gonna bid $582k and be done with it. A $50k price cut doesn't materially change the decision, though. And considering how low these units traded for pre-2005 just makes it even more obvious that it doesn't make sense to buy.

Ali - It's not easy to accurately judge someone's "tone" based on their writings on a chat board. I'm confident (not cocky!) that I will know how to deal with a co-op Board.

And just to reiterate, this would not be a co-purchase and I wouldn’t even mention my girlfriend's financial role to the Board. I mentioned her contribution b/c that’s a factor to be considered in arriving at my decision, not the Board's. She would in effect be paying me rent in an amount that exceeds the monthly assessment and I would still have the benefit of the tax deduction and retain 100% ownership (well, after I pay off of the damn bank!). I imagine that this is somewhat unique for most purchases.

And for the record, I’m very financially conservative. I live in the ‘burbs and I don’t even have a car. That’s just one example.

Anyway, thanks for the response. I should get back to work before my projected bonus goes to 0. ;-)

what front porch said. also, what lucille said. buying an apartment in new york is stressful, expensive, and frankly degrading in many ways. you live and work in ct, you like ct, you like your girlfriend, but she is gently nudging towards making that big step. trust me on this. how much are you willing to spend on an apartment you don't need and don't even really want to be close to her? even the most extavagant engagement ring is the cheapest and smartest option for you to keep the girl you love and want to live with. and if you don't want to marry her, stop wasting her time, don't tie her up in your purchase where she will have no ownership rights. let her have her single fun in the city and find someone better. or maybe if you're lucky, she'll get it out of her system and come back to you and ct on her own in a few years.

the only other possible senario here is that she is trying to leave you slowly. who just picks up and moves away? in that case you REALLY REALLY should not even be entertaining the idea of "following her" here. because that's not romantic, it's creepy. you know the answer, doesn she want to break up? then leave her alone. does she want to get married? then propose and start planning for the purchase of the new home you will share as a possible growing family. there is it. your options.

"Buildings do generally hate unmarried co-purchasers"

With good reason:

"i'll convince you of something. how about you stop dicking around and propose - or break up. because that's why she ditched you in ct."

If you're serious enough to co-purchase real estate, the glaring question for board members is why you're not serious enough to get married. The subtext of which, we generally correctly interpret, is that you're really not serious enough to be buying in the first place.

no_slogan, it sounds to me like you want a pied-a-terre. You love NYC, but you want to retain your CT status to save on taxes. There are a million people out there just like you who have done this successfully, and there's no reason why you shouldn't do it as well, unless, of course, you cannot afford it. But please don't consider spending your retirement account to pay for any of it!

As far as the title of your thread, you don't need convincing; you sound like you know what you want, and I commend you for that. I haven't really assessed all of your assumptions, so it's difficult to tell how close they'd be to reality, but everything costs more in NYC!

Regarding your girlfriend, only *you and she* know how strong the relationship is. Pay no attention to naysayers on the board regarding relationship advice. If your relationship is strong, and you feel financially secure, you already have your answer. Convincing you that NYC is a great place to live is the easy part. :)

the board experts in such things have expressed their doubts about the security if his finances where a possible co op purchase is concerned. and his girlfriend, who we've been led to believe lived with him until recently, has moved out. i mean....there's fluff and there's thought out honest advice based on facts presented. but whatever, nevermind the naysayers. spend every penny you have on purchasing an apartment you don't want, and, if you evaluate your life with a clear head, don't need.

" this would not be a co-purchase and I wouldn’t even mention my girlfriend's financial role to the Board. "

not sure if this was overlooked, and i don't know the law on this, but would she even be allowed to live in a co op with you without some kind of vetting by the board? and if the answer to this is no, is she aware of that?

and on a separate note, what are the chances you are the guy who wanted to buy a bachelor shag pag in the city a few months ago or possibly last summer? because that might be an important piece of the puzzle.

"not sure if this was overlooked, and i don't know the law on this, but would she even be allowed to live in a co op with you without some kind of vetting by the board? and if the answer to this is no, is she aware of that?"

Yes, she would.

Co-ops have no control over who shareholders have living with them, or the financial agreements they enter into with them.

"Potential risks of ownership:
- Relationship ends, and stuck with higher monthly cost"

This is the number one item on your "risks of ownership" list? No, you won't be stuck with just a $1200 more monthly cost, you will be stuck with a $500K-$700K apt. Right or wrong, you'll come to the conclusion that you bought the apt because of her.

Re: Girlfriend vs Roommate

I think you might have a problem if you buy and let your girlfriend pay part of the carrying cost while assuming she will have no ownership interest in your prospective place.

Ir might not matter to the coop board that she's kicking in $1200 a month if you have the means to pay what you've promised and still have a healthy cushion. BUT if you break up with GF, even though her name is not on the deed of sale etc, if she paid for the place she might have an ownership interest in it.

If you think a breakup is a possibility, don't let her pay a penny. Or, make a formal roommate/tenant/landlord agreement with her, spelling out in writing that she is renting her portion of the space from you in exchange for $1200 a month plus scrubbing the bathroom every week and doing all the laundry, or arrangement/sum you choose.

As a romantic bonus, you can renew it in writing every year on your anniversary! Just don't let her think for a minute that she has any permanant stake in the apartment or, for that matter, in you.

>BUT if you break up with GF, even though her name is not on the deed of sale etc, if she paid for the place she might have an ownership interest in it.

This is your expert legal advice?

"Just don't let her think for a minute that she has any permanant stake in the apartment or, for that matter, in you. "

exactly. better lose all his money now on the purchase, than possibly lose half of it in the divorce later. he has more control that way.

huntersburg
29 minutes ago
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lucille, you should try this on columbiacounty. You'll need something like "the beauty of upstate new york" then you can get going on the beautiful scenery and how George Pataki's commercials used to be great (to lure alanhart in) and how we should get the Olympics again. Wait a couple of days (maybe Monday after a nice weekend) and use one of our other streeteasy posting names.

A real man doesn't let his gf pay rent to live with him.

You don't gain an ownership interest by paying some money every month to the owner. Not in NY. At least not under any legally cognizable theory I've ever seen. This ain't hippie California.

Sunday: Bullshit.

"She would in effect be paying me rent in an amount that exceeds the monthly assessment and I would still have the benefit of the tax deduction and retain 100% ownership"

This would be grounds for a palimony suit depending on how long you lived together. It implies intent to cohabit and share expenses with the benefits applying to only one partner. Actually rather stupid to think it out loud, let alone put it in print. If I were your girlfriend, I would leave you on the basis of this comment alone.

If you want to live in NY, you need to rent. If you are getting 8% on your investment now, you can not depend on it. The macro situation right now is horrendous. If you want to live with your girlfriend in NY, you should make it clear that you are co-renting, without one person primed to benefit from ownership or benefit in any way at the financial expense of the other. . If you decide that you are serious, you can make living, buying and financial decisions together. If not, you can break up and each go your own financial way knowing that one partner did not fiscally f**k and exploit the other. That is the moral code of relationship conduct. You don't use your girlfriends rental contribution as a financial gain for your real estate aspirations and tax benefits.That is abominable. Have you no shame? If she is the one, you need to treat her with respect, not as some financial cash cow on your self-involved financial plan.

If you want to buy, do it without her in your financial reckonings. Let her keep her own apartment so she is not destitute when you decide your ultimate financial/living arrangements without her. You are clearly not a noble being. If she basically paid the monthly assessments without the benefit of tax deductions, would you give her a pro rated share of any profits on the value of the apartment? It is little wonder why she moved away from you. If you are secure in your moral ground, why don't you let her read this thread.

And btw, it is extreme hubris to challenge a professional like Ali who kindly offered free advice from countless real estate closings at co-ops in NY. But, really. Good luck to you.

no_slogan, be grateful that apt23 isn't your girlfriend.
did you read the thread where she discussed how she called 911 and reported her husband for buying an illegal gun and planning on using it to menace the neighbors ... except that he didn't buy a gun at all, the only crime committed therefore was making false statements to the police by apt23 herself.
But, really. Good luck to you.

apt23 – Wow! Are you kidding me?! I would jump at this opportunity if the tables were reversed.

You don’t see how this is a great deal for her to live in a nice Manhattan apt for a fixed $1200 with the person she wants to be with? This is roughly a 50% discount to getting a studio on her own and with the costs rising every year. Also, as I said before, I believe the apt is fully priced (if not over priced), so I don’t foresee making any capital gains. And for the record I have discussed the economics of purchasing with her.

Can you explain to me again how this is exploitation and would leave her destitute should we part ways?

P.S. – if you’d come down from your utopian cloud you would realize that you can’t rent a studio in the UWS (south of the 80’s, near the park) for $1200. I make up the balance.

P.P.S. – I don’t think I "challenged” Ali. I simply asked for clarification for how she arrived at her conclusion.

matsonjones, I also believe a real lady would not let her bf pay rent to live with her.

Sunday - I think that's ridiculous and don't know anyone that has that setup. Out of curiousity, are you a female?

To clarify, your girlfriend would be paying $1200 / month, and the monthly maintenance (which you called an assessment) is $1150?

That's correct Huntersburg.

Do you want to get married to her?

If a couple if going to live together, it should not be "his apt" or "her apt", it should be "their apt". If it's not "their apt", then the other person is just a guest. That "guest" better have an alternative place to stay when the couple have a fight or breaks up. Btw, it would be nice if the guest offer to help out with groceries and a couple of household bills.

no_slogan, I'm the best day of the week.

Sunday - That's a fair point, but I would never put anyone out on the street and we each have other places to go should it come to it. The flip side to that risk is that she would have the option to leave at any point and for no reason at all. That option has value too, and in my opinion, exceeds the risk.

>That option has value too, and in my opinion, exceeds the risk.

uh oh, talking about a relationship in terms of financial derivatives.

Slippery slope here.

no_slogan, if "you" are considering buying here, take your gf out of the equation. If you two are buying it together, that's a different story.

huntersburg - what's your delta? I'd say 0

Or if its so damn important to your girlfriend to live in Manhattan, tell HER to buy the place, and you can give HER $1,200/month in rent. Or, better yet, according to Sunday, you don't have to contribute at all because "a real lady would not let her bf pay rent to live with her.' So that settles that. According to Sunday, you could live in Manhattan for free! SCORE!

@apt123: there is no "palimony" in NYS.

matsonjones, only if you're hot enough.

Just because you could, does not necessarily mean you should.

Apt23 & Sunday, you guys have me scratching my head. These two kids are looking to co-habit and want to each pay their share more or less. Option 1 is that they find a place for $2400 - $3200 and split the rent. Option 2 is that one buys and pays the other half the equivalent rent. At $1200, I'd say that's half or less. Option 3 is to get into some messy joint ownership situation.

They're considering option 2. Que pasa?

>@apt123: there is no "palimony" in NYS.

typical apt23 hysteria

inonada, I think OP should leave the gf out of the equation in the decision to buy. He listed their breakup as the 1st item on the risk list.

seems like you're getting all kinds of money advice. but i'm a little confused about the relationship arrangement. would you be a couple who is serious enough about eachother that they have decided to live together? or would you be room mates who have sex?

"A real man doesn't let his gf pay rent to live with him."
"I also believe a real lady would not let her bf pay rent to live with her."
"Btw, it would be nice if the guest offer to help out with groceries and a couple of household bills."

i actually agree with this. you want a more concrete definitive arrangement? make the relationship more concrete and definitive. but i guess to answer your original question, no you shouldn't buy that place. why the f8ck would you buy a house 2 hours from your job?

>>"not sure if this was overlooked, and i don't know the law on this, but would she even be allowed to live in a co op with you without some kind of vetting by the board? and if the answer to this is no, is she aware of that?"

Yes, she would.

Co-ops have no control over who shareholders have living with them, or the financial agreements they enter into with them.<<

Correct. But--the GF would not be allowed to live there WITHOUT the shareholder (you). So, if, for example, you were to move away for a year, or decide to move back to your CT digs permently and let the GF stay in the co-op--that would not fly unless you got her approved as a subtenant (which would only be for a finite time--most boards allow two to three years max per every five).

The "resident" issue is a serious one which has largely been ignored here. The OP stated that to evade NYS taxes, he will spend at least 1/2 the year + 1 day in Connecticut. He will have to be able to document this for the IRS. He presumably will be staying at the same place in CT during the greater than 1/2 year he is there. It thus becomes arguable as to which place is his actual primary residence. For tax purposes, he will essentially have to say he resides in Connecticut. As such, were his girl friend to live in the NYC apartment the entire year and not schlep back and forth for tax purposes, then she will be the sole person making the NYC apartment her legal primary residence. This casts the entire arrangement into a murkier area in terms of how a coop might respond. So long as the apartment is the owner's primary residence, the coop has no real say in whom the shareholder chooses to live with. But if the apartment is a secondary residence, the shareholder may not, under the rules of most coops, invite someone to make the aparment a primary residence and to live there full time despite the fact that the sharehold is there less than 1/2 the time.

KW, I'm not sure why you're projecting so much on this.

The OP said that another option he was considering (and just that, stated as option #4 after prodding) was having a place in NYC w/ GF and sharing something in CT, and this was stated in the context of renting in NYC.

"The OP stated that to evade NYS taxes, he will spend at least 1/2 the year + 1 day in Connecticut."

Tax evasion means illegality. The scenario is tax avoidance, which is entirely legal.

kylewest - it's about "avoiding" NYC/NYS taxes (which is legal), not "evading" taxes (which is illegal). I only mentioned this as an alternate scenario in response to one of the questions that I got from inonada. I could get a cheap CT apt and a cheap NYC apt, but that's not a scenario I wanted to be convinced of.

In any case, to reiterate, if I purchase in NYC then I will be a resident of the state as I don't think I can or really want to carry a CT apt too.

I am not certain this relationship is even solid. I don't know of a woman who moves out of a shared apt with intents to keep dating the guy. Also, no_slogan has consistently avoided answering the question "Do you plan to marry her?" There are glaring omissions in this story. no_slogan, can you please fill us in on the backstory?

1) Where does your girlfriend currently work? (NY or CT)
2) Was she living with you in CT? If yes, was she commuting to NYC for work?
3) What made her move to NYC without you?
4) Who are you living with right now?
5) How long ago did she move out to NYC?
6) Is she dating other men on weeknights?

You should buy an apartment in NYC and rent a second apartment in CT so that you can avoid NYC and NYS taxes. Great idea! Just don't fuck it up and miss your count of days by 1 or 2.

Also I think the recent case in Staten Island is going to give you a hard time if your GF lives in your apartment on days when you aren't there - you might find that YOUR count should actually include her count when living in your apartment as a permanent member of the household. Feel free to consult absolutely no one who knows the answer with any real certainty on this matter. Just to avoid taxes in New York State and New York City.

>6) Is she dating other men on weeknights?

Nice

thanks for defending me 23 (I feel like I should buy you a glass of wine for all the nice things you say) but I feel like NS and I are discussing things civilly.

If only everyone were behaving as well today in RL.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

>I think the answer is obvious, but I’m sure there are several people on this board that will make the case that I should buy. If it’s so obvious to me to stay in CT, why do people want to live in NYC so much? Is it really worth the additional taxes plus double the housing costs?

The answer *is* obvious. You shouldn't buy right now. As you say, if you buy this "fully priced" apartment the chance that you'll make money on an eventual sale isn't good enough to justify tying up your cash. You aren't married yet, and if/when you marry you'll find that a 1br won't swing it unless you and future wife have very little physical property and/or no desire for kids. So, you'd have to sell, possibly at a loss.

You're working in CT and paying CT taxes, with a short commute. The only reason to move here is to be closer to your GF. If she's a keeper, propose marriage and I'm pretty sure she'll move to CT. If she doesn't want to marry you, better to know it now than in 5 years when you're even older and have less hair on your head and more on your ears.

Hope this helps!

NS: Just for the record, the tax issue should be high on your list of considerations. I think it would be quite impossible to do the six month and a day legal option. The state/city govt is really cracking down. I had a plan to take advantage of this legal option this year and spend time at my home in Miami. My tax lawyer informed me that I could not count any days that I was in Miami but our cat was in NY (with a loving cat sitter). So I imagine the tax guys would not allow any days where your girlfriend was in the city. There was a big NYTimes story about how impossible it was to take advantage of this tax option and that CT hedge fund managers are losing their audits on an increasing basis. After my meeting with my tax lawyer, I came to realize I had one of the most expensive kitties in the city.

Also, my above point was --- you are clearly considering using your girl friends rent contribution to build up equity in an apartment for yourself. However, she would not be building up any equity at all. She would not have the advantage of building up a credit record by renting in the city. She would not benefit from any oft considered strategies that have enriched renters -- a building going co-op for example or if she is financially constrained, trying to find a rent controlled apt that would have years of benefits. Or establishing a foothold in a neighborhood that will gentrify. Yes, she would have the option to move at any time but clearly only after she has contributed to the equity in your apt. Say you break up after a few years, do you really think she will be content knowing that you will be in a cushy apt that she contributed to financially as well as the creature comforts that most females add to a home whereas she will be in the hallway with a bunch of boxes starting from scratch? Seems you are not entering into this arrangement on an equal basis. I don't think there are many financial advisors that would advise her that the strategy you propose is a good option for her. Which is why I recommend that if she is "the one" you rent together until you reach some conclusions about your arrangement.

Thanks Ali. I would love to share a glass of wine. Next time you are pouring a nice dry white at an open house, I will be there -- preferably at a two bedroom near the park so I can also consider the apt. ;)

Alanhart, what do you think about apt23 trying not to pay taxes in NYS and NYC?

Also, what do you think about abandoning her cat for half the year?

>Apt23-Why not just take the cat?

It might be possible that the cat would prefer to be free of apt23, in which case I withdraw my prior comment.

I don't know why everyone's assuming OP's GF is catty ... maybe she's just a city mouse.

Alan, what do you think of apt23 trying to avoid NY taxes?

Apt23:
1. A cat is property of the sort people usually keep at their primary residence and thus evidence that you live in NY. GFs are not property, surprising as that may be to some.

2. If the GF is paying less than the ongoing maintenance interest charges, how is she foregoing "building up equity"? Those charges are ongoing costs of occupancy, like rent, not contributions to equity.

3. And, in any event, why would anyone imagine that purchasing at bubble prices would lead to "building up" as opposed to "losing" equity?

"However, she would not be building up any equity at all."

What are you talking about, apt23? Given that the GF is putting up no capital, bearing no risk, and simply paying relatively fair market rent, why should she have exposure to equity? Presumably she is an adult and can make a decision as to whether or not she'd like exposure to equity or simply rent, just like you and I can.

Look at it this way. The monthly after-tax costs of carrying the place will be around $2500. The GF pays $1200, which is half-ish the fair market rent. The OP pays the other half, forgoes investment on the downpayment of around $1000 a month (by his own number), will pay $60K in transaction costs, and will carry any gain or loss.

Yes, the GF has levered the OP's financial exposure to NYC RE (up or down) by renting. But how is this any different from you or I renting an apt from owner whose leverage to NYC RE is also increased via our renting. At the end of the day, the GF gets to live in 50% of a $600K apt for the price of $1200 a month, at a price-to-rent of 21x.

If she too would like to purchase at such a price-to-rent, that's another story. But given that her price-to-rent is in line with the market, how is the arrangement unfair?

Answer me this: is there ANY price at which we'd have a fair financial arrangement here? We have two people who would like to live together, don't want to combine their finances, with one looking to buy and the other one not looking to buy. What is the right amount here, or should it be simply impossible for two consenting adults to get into such an arrangement?

You are trying to talk relationship fairness to apt23, who made false statements to the police that her husband was making an illegal gun buy in order to menace (or worse) a third party! Apt23 who manages to find half a year to leave her husband and cat back home in NY so he can earn while she tans? Heck, even aboutready has more marital integrity than that, at least she walks her husband to work every day.

Apr23, thw woman who wanted w67 to enter her backdoor, and had no shame about publishing that on streeteasy?

troll, wouldn't it be much easier for you to just buy a Whitman's sampler for aboutready, and let her know your feelings of, um, admiration for her?

marital integrity? i'm just making sure my investment pays off by going to work each day.

apt23, you're kind of sounding like my mom. dear woman and all that but her ideas about relationships were firmly grounded in the '50s. i'm presuming nobody is forcing this woman to move in and pay less. if she feels burdened, insecure, manipulated, whatever, she can just leave. you're making her seem way too pitiful given the little we know about her. i agree with sunday, though, that whatever rent she brings to the arrangement should just be considered extra, and not be considered in determining whether or not it's a good idea to buy.

Yes, I know there's that reason too. You own half the degree, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you might also enjoy his compoany.

The problem is two folds. First, OP included the gf's monetary contribution in the equation. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, he included her in the equation emotionally (he's doing it to be closer to her.) The latter would not have been as big of an issue if they were getting married and buying it together. As I mentioned above, if they break-up, right or wrong, he will come to the conclusion that he bought the apt all because of her. He will want to sell the place so that he can get over her quicker.

Now, before you start giving me crap about being so negative for planning their break-up, it was the OP who listed the potential breakup as the number one item on the 'risks of ownership list'.

sunday, no crap. i agree with you, he should take her out of the buying equation.

but the bottom line is that he has no real desire to buy, and was indeed challenging us to "convince" him that buying is a good idea. i don't think anyone has even come close.

FG: Yes, I learned the hard way about cats and primary residency. I left the cat in NY over some long weekends where travel is difficult and stressful for my precious cat. Besides, she has a mutual love affair with my neighbor who loves to care for her. I thought I could count those trips towards my time outside of NY but was wrong. So in spite of the fact that Miami is my primary residence, I do not qualify for the NYC tax exemption. However, i believe if you had a significant other who was staying in your apt, it would affect your status. I recall the hedge fund manager whose wife would come into NY to go to Broadway shows but never visited the NY residence. Every day she went to a show was counted as a day of living in NYC.

2. There are renters that strategically monetize their rent -- like subletting in an apt where they know they might take over a lease or renting in an area with low rents that might improve -- say the new areas that Columbia has invested in. It is not building actual equity but "life" equity. Plus it sounds like GF is not in a good financial place and she should build up her credit record thru a legit rental in her name rather than tossing rent to BF. I can't tell you the number of girlfriends I have had who have lived with a man, buying or making drapes etc, contributing to the home and obviously when the relationship is over, the person who remains in the home benefits from the years of upgrades to the home and the one who leaves must start from zero. Especially since the OP has actually planned for the GF's rent contribution to help build his equity in the apt. I know a couple who were together for a dozen years in a somewhat similar situation and ended in a nasty court battle.

3. Couldn't agree more about throwing away equity by buying now. But if someone was planning to remain in an apt for decades and negotiated a 2004/05 price, I think they would come out alright since inflation is a risk.

aboutready, bottomline, OP probably would not even have bothered with the posting if the gf was not in the equation.

i really don't think i'm taking away the same thing as you are from the original post. to me it just sounds as though he is aware that the relationship could end and knows that he may thus wind up paying more.

people move in together for all sorts of reasons, and with all sorts of power (im)balances. i personally don't feel that there is enough info to give the man dating/relationship/wedding advice.

Here's how I interpret the posting... It's like a woman standing at the edge of a building telling people she wants to kill herself.

i guess my moving to another country with a guy when i didn't have a job and living with him in his company-sponsored apartment without any promises for the future wouldn't have met with your approval. but it was a hell of a good time. and oddly i didn't feel like a victim when the relationship ran its course and i left.

maybe SHE doesn't want to get married. who knows?

That sounds like an exciting summer vacation, aboutready!

good one alanhart!

aboutready, OP's gf is not the one getting the short end of the stick here.

OP is the one crying out for help. He's telling us to convince him to buy, when he really want us to convince him not to.