5th on the Park (Harlem)

Air-rights transfer from the church next door, which also sold them the land it's being built on.

I find it hard to believe that they have RAISED prices in this bldg, or really in any bldg in Manhattan, but that is what this website says of them. I can only sssume its in return for offsetting and greater concessions on the developer's part (paying trasfer tax, etc.)

raising prices in anticipation of 20 percent below ask offers is the new lowering prices

will actually be some nice views once this thing is finished.

it's weird in a way, it doesn't really detract from buildings in the area even though is fairly tall, would prefer something tall and skinny than 8 storey tall but a city block wide.

I lived in a brownstone a little way down 120th street opposite the park. it's not a bad area just under utilised by restaurants and communiyt facilities.....something I think most $1m apartment shoppers are going to be looking for.

Cheers,
Dean

I have friends near this and have watched it go up, and I don't think it's going to sell to anyone paying attention. Dean, you have a brownstone in the area which is completely different than a high-rise. Brownstones aren't found everywhere, and they aren't building them anymore so they are quite desirable. This is a cookie cutter high-rise with no amenities in the bottom--none. The first three stories will be a church. A popular church. No coffee shop, no drugstore, no restaurant, zero services. There are places a few blocks away, but the nearest bodega is scary and one can only eat at Piatto d'Oro so many times. that street is dead at night and very unappealing; Ive walked it many times. If you are in one of the brownstones, you can stroll to Settipani and feel like it's right next door. 5th on the Park may only be one block further, but it doesn't feel like the same hood, and when it's cold and you have to walk 6 blocks to the subway, it's not fun at all.

Some of the floor plans are exceptional, especially on some of the higher floors. The price...is too high for the location. Don't get me wrong...Harlem is on the way up but, to live here your going to need some pioneer sprit. Some day It's gonna be great! Just maybe not in your life time. Some of the best apartments in this building have already been sold. They haven't closed on one yet. We will see what happens. If your thinking of pulling up stakes, hopping on that conastoga wagon and heading north my advice is to wait a bit longer. When closing time comes this is the kind of building that people walk away from their deposits. Be patient...'There's gold in dem dare hills.'

You are all right. I live in the area, and already think my apt is a bit too far from the subways and nicer shops in Harlem...but this is technically in East Harlem and near nothing. its an over 10 minute walk to the 4/5/6 or 2/3, and taxis are not so easy on 5th - easier on 6th. No one with kids would move into a $1.9MM 4 bedroom this remote. On FDB, near several subway lines and a Starbucks and such, maybe. But here? or And nothing has sold in this building for months.

Does anybody know how long this developer can hold before the banks start asking for money back? It looks to me that they face a steep road ahead

euro, right now Uptown has entered bankruptcy, but they are currently minority shareholders in the development. I have no idea what shape the other partners are in. This project does, nonetheless, seem doomed to me.

Doomed is a bit much. They have sold 94 out of 154, or so. Even if 10% walk away from their deposits, it will open next month over half sold, which means the prospective buyers can get mortgages.

However, the remaining units will no doubt be rented out (and for MUCH lower rents than what will initially be asked) or sold for like 40% below what they are currently asking. This based on curent Harlem below 125th condo sales in new doorman buildings, and on the fact that this is THE most expensive one that will actually be completed.

The development was wishful thinking by the developers. The building, also has not worked with the neighborhood in terms or offering moderate housing opportunities, like other developments have. In other words, there is bad will in the 'hood over the development.

Thanks all for the input. but don't you think that the area is going to get better to live in? or is there an expectation that tension may rise in case of a protracted economic slump?

In any case if they do open, the remaining residents will have to shell out much more maintenance?

It will get better once we are out of the recession. Ultimately, if you can negotiate a much lower price than the developers are asking, you will do very well in the long run. But be prepared for at least 5 years before things begin to get better.

Part of the building is rental (47 units) owned by the church. A mega church will be housed in the development and the church owns the land which the condo leases and will pay in their common charges for ever. Nice idea, but to many negatives for me

I would never close in this building, at this time. 10% walking away seems very low to me.

Anyone with any sense who has a contract to purchase in this building at anything close to the listed prices has long since decided to walk away. Buyers in 5thOTP who are already in contract will be purchasing apartments that are obviously worth much less than their initially appraised value, and will be underwater on the jumbo mortgages many of them will need to take out before they even move in. What rational person wouldn't walk away? In contract law theory, it's called efficient breach.

I don't even know how they could possibly get appraisals at $800-900 psf right now. Even with some stretching by an appraiser. Also, Jason, new loan requirements are for 70% sold, with individual exceptions granted, so they may or may not make that even before people walk. This was a poorly conceived project, too expensive, too many big apartments, and too late.

"The development was wishful thinking by the developers. The building, also has not worked with the neighborhood in terms or offering moderate housing opportunities, like other developments have. In other words, there is bad will in the 'hood over the development"

That makes ZERRO difference to buyers. If anything, buyers in "emerging" areas wasnt 100% market rate apartements in their buildings, because that means more likelihood that gentrification will stick (and starbucks will stay around) and frankly snobbery. I live in the area, and would MUCH rather live in an all market rate place than in a partially rent-stabilized or partially subsidized place. Good will frm th e'hood means absolutely nothing to new buyers or renters.

if you want to throw away your money for these prices in the middle of nowhere at least do it downtown at places like 20 pine where the building has a better chance of not going in the can. in today's market it doesn't make much sense to 1. look at anything that isn't built completely and 2. stay in developed areas.

having lived in FiDi and Harlem both, I can say they both are pretty darn remote from the rest of Manhattan, and there is not a strong argument for one over the other. This particular building, however, is too remote even by Harlem standards.

Oh poor poor Harlem. How they slander you. Harlem is for the brave and the young. If your under 35 unmarried and not under the presure of convincing young intoxicated women to come to your home (cause the wont) this is your future. Wait 6-12 months and reinvestigate. They will be SOOOOOO desperate to sell they will have Jesus himself showing apartments at unimaginable discounts. Mark my words! When your grand children ask you how you had the forsight to make the purchase...show them this thread. Harlem has all the charm and future of our present economic status...it looks scary but, its going to get better.

Most definitely, falcogold. Though 5th on the Park won't go down as the turning point, that's for sure. Harlem will be the place post-recession.

onestly, I love Harlem and bristle when people ding it. That said, these apts look nothing like Harlem and there is a three story church with an enormous choir on its ground floor. Unless your on floors 17 and up, you will hear them, every. single. Sunday.

I think falcogold is right. The challenge is not to be deceived or swayed by the "low end" sales (at a very low volume, I might add) that are taken place in some buildings. These developers will be desperate once the spring showing season is over and it finally sinks in that the bubble has burst.

Its not just the choir, its the drummers in the park every weekend. And the LOUD arguments between men and there beyothches every night of the week, at about 4 in the morning. I live nearby, and get woken up CONSTANTLY by screaming couples. The love to start at 124th, walk around the park screaming, and continue on past 5Th on the park...

Am trying to get in touch with contract holders. harlemhound@mail.com

The church is renting now, through citi habitats. If you see "new building facing Marcus Garvey Park" on the citihabitats site under east harlem rentals, this is it. See also http://www.1481fifth.com/

Went to look at a 3 bedroom at teh above rental site. TWO THUMBS DOWN! They are asking STARTING $3850 per month, and the only deal is 2 moths free on a 24 month lease. But it has a seperate entrance from the luxury condos (1485 5th), you can use NON of the amenities (no pool, concierge, doorman, gym, etc), your guest come invia intercom only, you have two elavators only, including for moving. Did I mention no doorman? No laundry in unit. Etc. Anyone else who has looked in Harlem that you can get all of the above in a brand new rental building or condo with rentals for LESS in Harlem, easy.

re the citi habitats listing. http://www.citi-habitats.com/exclusive/bld_view.php?id_bld=386. are these units the ones they always planned on renting? or does this now include units they could not sell and thus turned into rentals?

also are the apartments now ready to move in? i just heard that as of yesterday none of the apts are ready to be moved into. that the lobby's are not ready. that there is no cert of occup. etc.

"Harlem is for the brave and the young. If your under 35 unmarried and not under the presure of convincing young intoxicated women to come to your home (cause the wont) this is your future."

add to that married young (under 35) couples without kids.

"Harlem is for the brave and the young. If your under 35 unmarried and not under the presure of convincing young intoxicated women to come to your home (cause the wont) this is your future."

As an over 35 year year old I find that racist and ageist. Hundreds of thousands of people over 35 live above 110th in manhattan, including thousands of white people. In my building alone there are several white families with kids.

As for for the rental question, these are the units that were always for rent. Did you even read my post? I make it obvious that this is so.

"racist and ageist"

grow up jason!

Was seriously consider this building, but found it it has a mega church and 47 rental units. Also, that common charges are partially paid to the church for the land.

How is it NOT racist and agist to suggest that ONLY people who are under 35 and don't have kids can or should live in Harlem, when in fact hundreds of thousands of people under 35 and/or with kids live in harlem NOW? What you could have ONLY meant is that WHITE people should not live in Harlem unless they are under 35 and without kids. Or did you not know that people over 35 live above 110th or that hundreds of thousands of kids or people with kids live above 110th? Clearly you were assuming that the people in this thread were all white.

most people here have the option between harlem and other places with a better environment. but those are of course more expensive. when you just start out (younger than 35) salaries are much lower so it might make sense to start out with a cheap rental in harlem. but often the goal is not to stay there forever (maybe not even in the city forever) but just as a starting point.

once you are lucky enough to be able to go for a better area, the move would make even more sense once you have kids going to school. that's all. for 99% of the people here is not "harlem has to be, which street?".

how many people are now living there cause they live in projects, or got a lottery or live in a house inherited is not relevant. the key is how many people are moving now accepting current market prices. if the discount in prices in harlem go back to what htey were in early 2000s then i bet more people would be moving in at mkt prices.

is anyone trying to get out of their contracts and with what success?

Sorry Admin, but you made a blanket statement. NO ONE over 35 and NO ONE with kids should live in Harlem. Without exception. However, MANY people who can afford to live elsewhere CHOSE to live in Harlem - because they want more space for there money, mostly, or because like me and brother and many other black upper middle class professionals, its viable option just as are other parts of Manahattan.

Furthermore, as my former (white) roommate pointed out, many of his white friends with whom he went to columbia inexplicably (to him) chose to move to hard-t0-get- to parts of Greenpoint for cheap housing rather thn harlem, and he could only chalk it up to race. Similarly, many people looking for more space for money or who cannot afford manhattan choose to live insimilarly priced places like Astoria, Hoboken, LIC, Porspect Heights, Park Slope etc. Even FiDi for some For where I work, other than Astoria or LIC, all of the other areas, including FiDi, are farther from work. Hence Harlem makes the most sense. What is more, Astoria is limited by the one subway line, and there and LIC actually cost more by taxi to and from work than where I live.

I also thought of RI, but its limited for the same reason as LIC.

Anyway, there was a long thought out process for living in harlem, for me, over 35. To make a blanket statement about a neighborhood where thousands CHOSE to live is beyond assanine.

Looks like first closing happened on March 30th. Wonder how many will walk. Let the games begin!

Anybody know if they are in full fledged closing mode? Still only one closing is showing up. Did they have this sale to meet the first closing rule to avoid having to offer right to rescission to contracted buyers?

Its DEFINITELY not open for living. 1481, the rental part, does not have a COO until May 1. The condo half looks at least two weeks away. I walk by it all the time.

Some fools paid over $1000/sq foot to live on W119th & Park? That's a joke, right?

Behold, East Harlem for more than $1,000 psf in 2009.
East Harlem for MORE than $2 MILLION in 2009.
http://tinyurl.com/cbm6vl

Lots of dark windows on that tower for the next few years.

50 units are for rent on top of that (but they were ALWAYS going to be.) Listed as 1481 5th. They too are overpriced.

Still not open, it seems.

http://manhattankids.blogspot.com/search/label/Fifth%20on%20the%20Park%20condos

jason, did you bother to notice that actually i increased the group of people from falco's original statement? men, and what do i get for doing that? "assanine"?

I don't get what you mean.

of course you don't. to understand you need to read what people wrote before posting.

I still wonder when this bldg will actually open, if ever. It, like there other development windows on 123, has been 99% finished for like 3 months. That last 1% is just not happening.

Jason, they had first closing at the end of March. Do you know if they even have a TCO? Was this done to beat the "first closing within the first year of condo operation" that they need to meet to avoid offering rescission rights to contracted buyers?

I almost bought there in the summer of 07 until the developer's son, who was acting as a sales agent, was an arrogant SOB and turned me off of it. At the time, I was told that the development would open in the fall of 08. I thank my lucky stars that I did not buy in that overpriced disaster.

Maraman, i would love to get my hands on the closing documents for that March sale. I wonder who the buyers are (i know the names, but those are meaningless to me), and whether they were given some sort of buyback guarantee to induce them to close.

Yes, for sure it was to beat the deadline. I looked at the rental side 1481, and they said they did not have a certificate of occupancy until May 15th, and that the condo part would come some time after that.

Jason, the funny thing is, it looks like the buyer got no meaningful discount on the unit. I checked ACRIS and the buyer did not need a mortgage (wish I had that kind of money laying around), maybe he "closed in escrow"? The Declaration of Condominium has also not been filed in ACRIS, at least as far as I can tell. This is usually required before you can close with a bank mortgage, unless you close in escrow.
Certainly is a curious situation.

bronxboy, what a blessing in disguise!

The blog I linked to above said it was a related party to the developer, so it what probably the developer using a sub or affiliate or just a relative. No one would close at cost all cash months before you can even move in.

Jason - just found the blog. So it was a shill.
I was told by a lawyer that the AG will ignore such a sale, since there is no CO or TCO. Should be a good opportunity for any buyers who don't want to close (and who would based on the report in the blog) to walk and get their deposits back.

I assume the blogger knows or has skin in the game because s/he has info on a group of owners trying to get out.

hello?

there is a tco for floors 7-12 (but not for 6).

no one scheduled to close by 6/2 has been able to do so for a variety of reasons incl. bank financing. .

when is the ny times going to do a story on this fiasco?

when is the ag's office going to intervene and help these customers who have been duped by this bankrupt developer.

when is artemis going to realize the damage this project is doing to their brand and decide to shut it down.

Are you a contract holder at Fifth on the Park?
Join them on facebook.
Search for the group:
"Fifth On The Park Discussion Group ( FOP )"

No such group comes up.

try this: FifthOnTheParkDiscussionGroup

"...the 47 rental apartments that were always part of the mixed-use building's plan (there's also a church in there somewhere). The one- to three-bedroom rentals hit the market about three weeks ago, and two have signed leases in place..."

Citi has been marketing these since APril 1. Occupancy since May 15th. And 2 leases out of 47? I guess I am not imagining 48 cragilist posts per hour from them on this.

http://curbed.com/archives/2009/05/26/rentals_at_harlems_fifth_on_the_park_don_disguise.php

They are finally finishing up. They were working on the weekend, so some money must have freed up. But no price chops yet.

jason, what do you mean by "citi has been marketing these." you're talking about vikula's big C? and i'd be hugely interested in any marketing info you might know of. not surprising, really, that the money came through. what is the lender going to do, realistically? they need to get the building finished so they can determine what to do with it.

Citihabitats is marketing the rentals as 1481 5th...as in the rentals the church will keep the money for in return for the land use. I don't think citiBANK financed this bldg though.

jason, joedavis put together a Harlem Yahoogroup. It will be great if you join!

A friend of mine is in contract at 5th on the Park and told me about this site that is organizing the resistance:
http://tinyurl.com/dfw566

why do people start new threads!?!?!?!?!!?!?

do they not know how touse the interwebs?

jason, joedavis put together a Harlem Yahoogroup. It will be great if you join!

which one? want to join!!!

I will, thanks.

jason
here is the link to the group
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/harlembuyers/
welcome

what will this new group be about?

1. What are the requirements for a condo to be declared effective?

2. Once a condo has been declared effective under what circumstances can that be undone and by whom?

3. If a condo is declard effective but no buyers can close for any number of reasons what are the possible outcomes?

All relavent. It is still not open for peoples yet.

has anyone joined the 5thonthePark discussion group on FB? seems restricted.

"having lived in FiDi and Harlem both, I can say they both are pretty darn remote from the rest of Manhattan, and there is not a strong argument for one over the other."

That's just an insane comment. Seriously.

^^ I lived in Midtown Manhattan for 9 years in a spacious 1 bedroom 1.5 bathroom that had been converted to a somewhat tight 2 bedroom 2 bathroom, and in early 2008 started looking for a true 2-2.

Wanted to spend under $1M, so of course I looked at FiDi and Harlem. But there really isn't much in FiDi at that price. Harlem has a lot. But FiDi seems to have much more neighborhood amenities, even if they do all close at night and on the weekends.

I did look at 5th on the Park, and have to say I was very unimpressed with its finishes, pretty standard (even ugly) for the asking prices. And the location sucks. Several blocks from any subway and almost no retail/restaurants/bars.

I can't believe what a crook the developer turned out to be. I thought he was a nice enough fellow, in a family-run business.

Hi, I'm concerned that to date there's only 2 closings out of the 97 contracts and would like to connect with other buyers to exchange info. If interested, please contact yellowstarfish88@gmail.com, thanks.

"I thought he was a nice enough fellow, in a family-run business. "

as in "the will be blood"?

btw, if any buyer is concerned with confidentiality and would rather speak with a real estate lawyer whom i'm also in discussion with, you can reach him at:
Michael Katz
212 682 6260
MichaelAKatz@verizon.net

Do you think that in the long term this development will hurt or boost the neighborhood? Since the units are finished (I saw one of the 3 bedrooms with views and it was pretty spectacular, actually, though insanely priced), I don't see the place turning into a phantom building. Will it bring more restaurants? Safety? What do you foresee?

Evenutally it will help the neighborhood, but only when it becomes more affordable.. .or until the Harlem downturn ends and that's a ways off.

Tks Bronxboy. It seems to me that the brownstones bought in the peak continue with the renovations. There is a lot of activity of that kind in central Harlem.

Is it even safe to walk from the subway late at night?

The building is mentioned in today's NYT RE section as the final stop for a clueless suburban divorced woman. The reality of her purchase has been an awakening.

Any news on this building? It's currently a ghost tower in Harlem. Will it ever open?

update on isla

http://sf.therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/fighting-buyer-mutiny

"This month, The Real Deal looked at the new condo buildings that have seen the most buyers trying to renege on their contracts since the real estate market took a nosedive last year.

The analysis found buyers asking for their deposits back on nearly 400 units within 20 buildings. In one case, more than 50 percent of the buyers in a building, the 505 in Hell's Kitchen, filed lawsuits in federal court asking for their deposit back. "

FOr those of you keeping track...this place BOASTED of 90 units being sold...18 months ago. They have STILL not lowered prices one cent...and guess what? Nothing has sold...for 18 months.

See this new story for context:

http://www.brickunderground.com/blog/2010/01/ambivalent_condo_buyers_suffer_serious_legal_blow

It will go rental eventually. Mark my words.

imho it's great that the potential buyers cannot recover their deposits when the reason for not closing is prices going down. the flip coin would be a developer canceling contracts when prices go up to avoid leaving $ in the table.

There are already closed units for rent, right now.

Is anyone living there yet, Jason? What happened to all the buyers?

There are units that have rented, yes, from condo buyers. The rental only side is also open. But it still does not look good...

LOL! You guys are hilarious. I can hear you salivating over the failure of a building that you can't afford or else disapprove of in some way be it pricing or architecture or neighborhood. LOL! Seriously do you re-read your comments? You sound so eager for it to go under - even predicting it. Why not wish good things for the folks that have bought and are closing or desire to close? You didn't buy so why are you so concerned about what happened to the buyers? Human nature is a trip. Sure a couple of the purchasers are renting their units but that's because they were always purchased as an investment for those folks but even with the economy taking a downturn they still chose to close. So far over 30 families have closed and are living in the building. Just FYI since you are all so curious.

BUt there were over 90 in contract...

Of course I want that bldg to lower prices, so in the future I can buy there or one like it. Its simply absurd that they have kept asking prices unchanged when Harlem and Manhattan condo prices both are down 25% (at least) from when this bldg started sales.

I also find this particular developer (if he is even still involved) incredibly sleazy. And I find people like you to be suckers for having bought at the peak...in Harlem. Note I live in Harlem (and did in 2007 too) but then and now thought it (like all Manhattan) was (and is) due for a correction.

And I don't know about the others on this board, but I certainly could afford to buy in this bldg...but why pay $1MM now for something that can be had in auction for $700k in the not too distant future?