square footage

Most brokers are scum. I went to see a few places where I have already did the calculation of the places using the floor plan on the site, they are always off by at least 50 sq ft but often over 100 sq ft.

When I told the broker about the exaggeration, she looked at me funny like why are you actually calculating the size?

So whatever price per sq ft you see from SE or any other area, is probably wrong.

I never understood why buyers get so hung up on square footage representation. Presumably you're going to visit the unit before purchasing it, right? If the apartment works for you, space-wise, layout-wise, light/views, location, etc, then what difference does it make if the square footage estimate is off by ><100?

If it's so important, measure it yourself before putting in an offer.

above should read: 'estimate is off by plus/minus 100'

"Presumably you're going to visit the unit before purchasing it, right? ...what difference does it make if the square footage estimate is off"

Squid - because the naked eye can't always see everything, that's why objective measurments exist. When you drive over a bridge, do you hope they actually did mathemtatical calculations to get the engineering right, or just "eyeballed it"?

Typical realt-whore rationalization.

I would think that, if you're pricing something at $/sf, the square footage would matter tremendously. That's the difference between thousands and thousands of dollars. I'd be furious.

Yet another reason why you shouldn't price anything at $/sf. There is no standard for calculating square feet of an apartment. It'd be handy if everyone used the standard used in condos -- varying and deficient as it is -- but they don't, so no sense making a big deal of it.

If you want to measure every apartment you see by *your own* standard, then fine, but don't expect sellers or anybody else to use your standard.

Admiral--

When you purchase an apartment (especially pre-war co-ops, which rarely have exact square footage counts on file) it is up to YOU to verify the exact size, if that is important to you. This is no different, really, than reviewing board minutes to verify the building has good financials (would you rely on a broker for this? Um, no.) and even doing things like checking the water pressure, or confirming washer/dryers are, indeed, allowed (which is often NOT the case, even if a broker advertises as such).

Purchasing a home is an enormous financial commitment. It is a fool who fails to do his own due diligence (including whatever 'objective measurements' he might deem important) before handing over a check and signing on the dotted line.

12 years ago I bought a atudio that was marketed at 600 sq. ft. I got very far into the process knowing it wasn't 600 sq. ft. Late in the game, I brought in some "inspectors" including an architect and measured the place at 485 sq. ft. I brought this to the attention of the seller and told them I was only willing to pay the proportionate price. This was a building where there was no other apartment "in that line" and also the seller was an estate. I prevailed and knocked 18% off the price that I was just before in near contract on.

No standard for calculating square footage is a problem, though with that said - of course square footage matters - it's a measurement of the size/area of the property! Also, what about in new development, when all you have to go on is the offering plan? Of course square footage matters, there, too. In fact, misrepresenting the square footage on a material basis can be a cause for a right of rescission in a new development contract. This is all not to say real world measurements and experience in the property are not the most important things, though accurate measurements of square footage matter in the larger picture of real estate.

how come square footage can be measured and not argued about everywhere except NYC? do you think that is a function of the calculation or some peculiarity of nyc?

so what would you do as a seller if all the comps around you are grossly exagerating there square footage. i think i would not disclose a number.

unfortunately, i think that's the only answer.

If the comp was for the same layout, you could list yours accurately and expose the other/exaggerated listing. If layouts are different, this would be tough, though I would list it accurately. There really should be some standards here and requirements based on legislation. Is anyone aware of any?

Assessors and construction-cost-estimators have their own standard methods. An assessor, for instance, will measure the house on the outside, adjust for space under eaves, etc. Then they'll count porches, unheated space, and so on, differently. Then they might count bathroom fixtures as an indicator when coming up with a value.

Construction costs are calculated as cubage, so that's another ball of wax.

In new condo construction, the method of calculating square feet is laid out very precisely. Even so, the sizes are given as "approximate", to fend off issues with the fuss-pot who shows up with his laser device. The same guy forgets to bring calipers to measure wall thickness, etc.

Maven's approach is interesting. If the standard way of discussing real estate is $/sf, and seller is pricing based on false measurements, I fail to see how exaggerating the square footage is tantamount to anything but an attempt to swindle the buyer.

If sellers and brokers are allowed to openly lie about the square foot figures of an apartment using the excuse that it is the "buyer's responsibility to do his/her own homework", then what is stopping sellers/brokers from openly lying about:

- Maintenance and taxes
- The building's finances
- Actual location (address) / floor of the apartment
- School districts
- Anything they think can trick buyers into paying more than they should?

Honestly, if you were to pull these stunts in ANY other industry, you'd be charged fraud.

Try selling a securities product and openly lying about its yield....
Or even selling a consumer product and lie about its dimensions...

Unfortunately, over the past decade, sellers and brokers (and the real estate industry as a whole) have been too great of political force here in NYC and have been able to commit fraud and deception that would never be permitted in other major industries.

But I have a feeling that with this market correction and RE prices dropping, it is going to be harding for them to lie to and cheat the public and still get away with it.

talking about square footage, this is from a broker in the west village. I was basically asking for the size of the unit, and they kept refusing and when I added the size in the floorplan I ended up with a striking $1400/sqf which I thought it was ridiculous. I got the following answer from the broker

"Coop's (especially in townhouses in the west village) aren't sold by price per foot like condos because they vary too much in size and condition. It is also hard to compare square footages because the dimensions don't always cover the entire space and no two units are measured the same. So it is difficult to comment on a price per foot"

"The dimensions don't always cover the entire space". Breathtaking.

>>If sellers and brokers are allowed to openly lie about the square foot figures of an apartment using the excuse that it is the "buyer's responsibility to do his/her own homework", then what is stopping sellers/brokers from openly lying about:

- Maintenance and taxes
- The building's finances
- Actual location (address) / floor of the apartment
- School districts
- Anything they think can trick buyers into paying more than they should?<<

-It is not unheard of for there to be 'mistakes' on listings about maintenance charges. This is why any potential buyer's a fool if he doesn't verify all numbers before signing a contract (understanding, of course, that maintenance charges may increase at any time, and are therefore not guaranteed).

-No buyer EVER relies on a broker for building financial info. Any idiot knows that (and if he doesn't, he shouldn't be buying in the first place). It's called due diligence. And it's generally done by the buyer's attorney.

-Duped over location and floor? Seriously?? Perhaps, if you're you planning on buying sight unseen (again, idiotic). 'Wait, what do you mean it's on Avenue B? The broker said Park Avenue! I want my money back!!' Come on.

Caveat emptor, man. Learn it. Live it. Love it.

the best part for me is "Coop's (especially in townhouses in the west village) aren't sold by price per foot like condos" so I suppose they are sold by number of rooms instead or maybe closets he he

Correct, they're not sold by the square foot. It's not the rag trade we're talking about. If you care then measure it yourself. If the broker *had* measured it, you'd have bitched about what was measured.

well I suppose the "rag trade" at least have a standard measuring unit. I do believe that $/sqf is a valid value unit. Premium neighborhood add a markup, nice location add a markup, etc etc. The point was that I added the sqf from the floor plan that the broker provided then divided by the asking price and got 1400$/sqf. Now I like the west village given the premium location nice view good finishes etc etc I think that $1000/sqf is a fair price. Therefore 1400/sqf seems ridiculously high. Maybe I come from a commodity trading background, but even in our "rag" trade we do know how value different qualities.

"f you care then measure it yourself. If the broker *had* measured it, you'd have bitched about what was measured."

The point is, the broker had measured it and the would-be seller bitched about what was measured. The price per square footage might be flawed or crude, but at least there's a degree of consistency compared to other completely subjective variables.

I found corcoran is the worst offender! Their sq footage is always higher than other brokers for the same apt. lines.

Squid,

You clearly don't understand.

I am not suggesting that a buyer doesn't do his/her homework and due diligence, just that sellers/brokers shouldn't have the "right" to deceive, lie to and trick potential buyers as they presently do.

I find it amazing that we are talking about million to multi-million dollar transactions and some people on this board thing that these carnaval deception games that many in NYC RE play are "just the way it is and should be".

Again, maybe that is how it was in the previously over-heated RE market - with thousands of morons trying to outbid eachother - but I don't these same tricks and nonsense is going to work as well going forward.

A few years ago, a new salesperson naively asked "Why do so many people list with {name of firm omitted}?". In my usual wise-ass manner, I quickly replied "Because when you list with them, you get an extra 200 square feet for free".

For about the past 20 years I have refused to quote square footage on Coops. I give an accurate floor plan and that's it. You can't win if you quote square footage. Like Mr. Heddings, I refuse to lie about it. But if you tell the truth, it's very hard to sell because the vast majority of brokers have "trained" buyers as to what 1300sf looks and feels like, but it's really 1100sf. So if a buyer (or even broker) calls you and you say the real SF, it's always too small, because if you say 1100, they compare it in their mind with all the 900sf apartments which they have been told are 1100sf, and they "know" that it is too small.

A number of years back I was selling a 2BR, 1.5bth unit at 530 West End Ave. As a condo, it had a SF listed, so that's what I used. I had a broker with a similar size (but actually a little smaller) Coop right across the street bring a buyer who was interested, but made a low offer. I told the Broker that the offer wasn't acceptable and asked her why she thought I should take it if her listing across the street was priced the same. Her answer was "Because mine is bigger!". See, I listed my 973 sf apartment as 973sf and she had listed her 925sf apartment as 1100 SF. I knew trying to explain that to her would be a waste of time so I didn't even bother to try.

Here is one really outrageous example.... The best I can get out of that floorplan is 1700 sq ft....yet it is listed at 2,500!!! What a joke. Good luck.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/398898-coop-270-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

yeah, even outside wall to outside wall and pretending its a perfect rectangle I get 2257. And you are right, its really under 2k for sure.