12 E. 14th #3B in Manhattan

Here is the link to listing on StreetEasy.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/398610-coop-12-east-14th-street-greenwich-village-new-york

maintenance is quite high, no? it can't hurt to try 15% below. Maybe you will meet in the middle somewhere. Good luck!

That unit has always been a "tough sell" over the years. People have been resistant to that 14th St location for a long time (so much so that 7 West 14th went through the hassle of moving their lobby to the backside of the building and re-badging as 10 West 15th Street). And the building seems to leave poeple a little underwhelmed for the maintenance charges.

i never considered 14th street the village...for the money you can spend i think you can do better than 14th street.

From the pictures, I think it looks great!

i'm with newbie here. i think the location is grand, and has improved in reputation enormously over the past 5 years (but I'm a biased downtowner!!)

is it still too expensive, yes. but it's not a bad deal (with a 10% discount or so) in today's market. btw, the seller's broker, Patrick, is lovely and a pleasure to work with.

I agree with 30yrs_RE....14th street is a tough sell. We never look at the avenues or major blocks (Houston, 14th, 23rd).

I think the price reflects the location. East 10th street between 5th and University would be a whole different world, and a whole different price.

I'm in my third apartment on 23rd Street (have done both west and east). Some buyers care, others will take the discount, particularly if they like the general location overall.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the entrance is right next to Taco Bell right? As long as you don't mind the homeless people panhandling right outside the door there, and the occasional New School student takeover (along with whatever construction is going to happen at 65 Fifth), you can't beat the location. The street is way too crazy for me.

Prices in Manhattan on the UWS and UES are down quite a bit...seems like you can buy an apt in a decent building for 600 $/sqft for coop and 750 $/sqft for condos. Why would anyone buy in the Financial District for similar sqft prices as other part of Manhattan? There is no community down there. You cant even find a grocery store. I think FD should be at least 70% of UES, UWS, midtown or gramcy area.. I think it would be at 400-500sqft for condo and less for coops. Please feel free to comment.

Where do you guys get the money to buy in this environment? I am scared to buy since there is uncertainty in my job. I think you need at least 250k income just to live in NYC...

12E14th Street is no where near the Financial District...

To each his own. It's also a block from Whole Foods and the greenmarket, and the express subway.

I know Nordberg.. what do u think about my comments? I have been reading 30yr_RE_20_in_REO comments and he/she sounds intellignet.. can you please comment on what i wrote above? Thanks.

about ready what do u think about my comments? I would like u opinion as welll thanks

Can I comment...sure. I have no idea why anyone would buy in the Financial District (I wouldn't). Nor do I have a clue where said people get their money to purchase those apartments. Hope that helps.

RE, people don't have the money. That's why inventory is still above 11000. Prices would be declining regardless, but current bank lending standards have killed this market. They went from giving a loan to anyone in any building to giving very few loans indeed.

I am very bearish, and have been for some time. I don't think it's wise to buy generally now. But I have seen some properties that might be compelling for a long-term holder who really wants to own. That's why I added the caveat "in today's market." In tomorrow's market that might not be a very good price at all.

Thanks guys/gals for your comments, I wanted to get a feel of people's view. Did you guys read this article on Wall Street Jorunal about Manhattan Unraveling with some new consturction filing and about 5000k units coming on line by year end.. Inventory going to shoot through the roof.. Where do you think we bottom in sqft terms? Back to 1998?

I live in Manhattan and I can bearly survive after such a meltdown in the financial world...cost are going up with income rapidly deterioting.

ABOUTREADY - That's why I added the caveat "in today's market." In tomorrow's market that might not be a very good price at all. What do you mean by this comment? Are you a owner or renter?

Thanks for the feedback on my original post. Re some of the comments/questions: i currently live downtown and don't mind the hub-bub of USQ. The unit itself is on the back side of the building so its quiet. I agree that the maintenance is sky-high which is why I would like to offer the lowest price I can get away with without foreclosing all discussion. Before teh comments veered off into FiDi, it seemed like 15% wasn't unreasonable

I would bid lower like 20%.. The RE market is going to be flooded with condos by the end of the year.. Did you read the WSJ article on Manhattan Unravel? Like aboutready said, the banks are not leanding so the sellers will need to accomondate with the oversupply and the lack of qualify buyers. I think for coop 600sqft is a good bid for now until the 5000 condos/coops comes during this year. That would bring the inventory to 18000 for manhattan.. I am nervous..very very nervous.. I would say at that point the RE mkt will plumment to 1998 level.

storwal, $1.5ish psf for maintenance is not high any longer. no doorman, yes? that would make it a bit high, but still in the range. a lot of this type of product doesn't have doormen, how does it compare to those? the newer ones have tax abatements that will lead to large increases down the road.

offer what you feel comfortable offering. 15% in this market is not unreasonable in the slightest. there is no sales history for this one, which indicates to me that it was bought prior to 2004ish. I would doubt the owner paid anything more than $600 psf, and possibly much less given the evolution of the location. an offer of 20% below seems in the ballpark to me, and then you go from there.

storwal, it doesn't hurt to start low and move up from there, esp since the CC are high for a undoormanned building. You should think in terms of, "what if I have to move within 5 years, will I be able to sell this place without taking a massive hit?" IMHO, the CC is high, and that is a big part of the sell for the future.

RE_PRO: if you are asking what I think about FiDi, I think it has all the elements of complete disaster in place. Way oversupply, demand which was initially based on LOWER PRICES misinterpreted by developers as an "emerging market". Not established long enough to develop "neighborhood services" and in a market where new business openings are not looking to be very likely - and not very much small retail space even built in the area, which makes it impossible for what are usually considered nice small neighborhood shops possible (like, where are you going to get your shoes fixed, buy flowers, etc.). Also high common charges / taxes will only seem higher as prices come down. And to repeat, people went to Fidi for the low prices - VERY few went there saying "I really want to live in Fidi! It's such a great place to live!". So in order to make it attractive in an era when neighborhoods where people really do say "My first choice is _____" are going down, they will have to drop even further. And even further than a really big number is a REALLY BIG number. But this is sooooo of to[ic for this thread.

aboutready: 23rd street - especially West - is a very different animal than 14th Street. For downtown, it is far and away the best of the 2 way crosstown streets. And as far as prewar doorman apartment buildings, most of such units in Chelsea are one 23rd st (Chelsea Gardens, 300 West 23rd, London Terrace) and once you get West of 8th Avenue the street fairly rapidly loses the usual characteristics of the 2 way streets. This is in stark contrast to the property we are talking about, which is prototypical in terms of the "2 way cross town experience" (is that going to be the next "ride" in the Empire State building?). Although Houston Street shares some of this same characteristic, it doesn't share the upsides of having both the higher end prewar doorman buildings and a famous row of converted brownstones (Fitzroy Place).

30yrs, I hear you. I was just responding to the major crosstown issue. I still think the 14th Street issue is priced in. Except for 148 W. 23rd, which is the redheaded stepchild of 23rd street, I haven't seen a duplex loft space that presents this well at this price on 23rd.

Right now isn't the time to be buying for investment purposes methinks, or for any reason other than you think the Fed won't control interest rates and you need them low to buy (or perhaps that primal instinct?). Nothing is a certainty, and yes you could argue that in uncertain times you should head for the greatest certainty you can find. I've kind of made a fair amount doing the opposite, I bought on E. 23rd back in the day when it still looked like E. 14th. These are uncertain times, quite possibly the worst we've seen in many, many years, but I'm fairly certain that there are people who will hold their noses and live near 14th and 5th (now) in order to be near Union Square. Just look at that ridiculous development at 14th and University. Whether that makes it a good long-term decision I've decided to leave to the buyers (except for the obvious fails, the new developments that don't have a chance in hell, or are even just probably seriously risky, I feel obligated to state my opinion there). Not saying that it's the correct course, but I understand that primal urge and I'll leave it to others to be the buying police. I'll always add the caveat, of course, because I believe it true and necessary, that one ought not to buy now.

"Except for 148 W. 23rd, which is the redheaded stepchild of 23rd street"

but, see..... that's what this building is (historically speaking) the closest to being. And 148 has a doorman and the location on 23rd is superior (vis-a-vis other West 23rd St addresses compared to 12 e 14 and other 14th St addresses). Also, when you talk about "presents this well", you are certainly leaving out "curb appeal" which 148 certainly has some of and 12e14 has a number approaching zero; and that has to factor into pricing, saleability.etc. somehow. So I think if you want to make comparisons, you have to think about 148 West 23rd. I don't know how long you've followed the building, but at the bottom, the apartments were close to unsellable (to the point where I sold a "loft studio" REO for some very low number like $28,000 (of course to a member of the board, because they would have rejected such a sale based on low price to any outsider - snark, snark, snark)).

strowal, pros and cons, lofts are always difficult to distribute and partition and have poor light in some areas, on the other hand this unit seems to be as big as advertised, so it's really being offered at 750 psf or something like that.

30yrs, you're talking to a woman who bought in 310 e. 23rd Street in 1995. So almost unsellable that I almost didn't get a mortgage. I agree, obviously, and yet I think this presents less risk if it can be gotten at a decent price. I'm not trying to pump up this listing. I'm just saying (as an obviously biased downtowner who doesn't dislike the location itself) that it presents very well at the price.

Yes, it is like 148. Which is kind of why I brought it up. I think there are decent deals there too. And I bought in 140 W. 23rd as well. Not a problem, but its next door neighboor.

Ah, 140 West 23rd. I always thought they should have played up the Brothel theme more. But I think there's no comparison (and not just the Coop vs condo angle) 12 e 14th is no 140 W 23rd (in my best Lloyd Bentsen voice).

310 E 23rd - another of the earlier Rockrose marvels of - ahem - architecture. How many people do you think didn't realize their sofa wouldn't fit in the one dinky passenger elevator until they closed and actually had the movers standing in the lobby with it? the big difference: what number did you pay for your 310 E 23rd space? I'd pay that number for 12e14th, but somehow, I don't think were talking anywhere near, perhaps even an order of magnitude?

30yrs, wily like a fox. yes i made about 4x on my 310 purchase (selling in 2000). and yes, i had to have all of my bookcases, etc. made in two pieces. i'm not dumb, but who would f'ng expect that a former foundry didn't have a freight elevator? some things could come in via 312, but only if they could fit in the elevator, because oddly enough for a loft building the stairwells also make it almost impossible to move things up because of the low hanging edges. had a refrigerator delivered that had to be sent back.

Due to Rockrose's awful behavior (those documents were an interesting read, I must say), I felt that prices were seriously deflated when I looked. I was right. What pisses me off beyond belief is that Rockrose sold the 500 sf studio next to our unit (950sf) without telling us it was on the market. WTF? How stupid can a developer be?

140 is a wonderful building, very low turnover, the greatest people..

actually, 30yrs, 310 has two very dinky elevators, 312 has one slighly less dinky one. just joking, but not really.

happy mothers' day to me and all others similarly situated, my family is pulling me screaming from the insider research screen. the daughter offerred to do an exercise dvd with me. at her age, that can only mean that mom you've packed a few pounds on and i'm such a superb kid that we should do this together and you'll so appreciate my gesture that you'll take me to the apple store on 14th.

hmmm. 30 years, you've scared me. I agree that the curb appeal isn't great, but you really seem to hate this building!

30years, Your response is making me nervous. My sister bought at 59 william street back in 2006 for 750 $ per sqft, 2000sqft apt.. She is nervous of the RE market. Do you think at this price/foot, it may be a good hold? The maintance is high at 2k per month. Shocking is that i see posting for 90 william for 1k/sqft. I would never live down there. You are on the ball with your reponse.

I'm just jaded. I hate lots and lots of buildings so label me as "generally negative" and take my comments as such as I am generally hypercritical. but I also am a believer in historical behaviour patterns and buildings which fare badly in one downturn tend to fair badly in the next one as well, and this was a building which did worse than average historically. In this market (maybe on the verge of truly cracking, maybe not), I would be careful. OTOH, if the market takes a HUGE shit and no one wants to buy in this building and prices come way down, I'd be telling you: everything is scared off because of it's negatives: buy it while it's a bargain and selling it in the up market. but I'd say the same thing about 250 mercer and i think i might look at this listing if you like 12e14?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/388001-coop-250-mercer-street-noho-new-york

30 years - thanks for the link to 250 Mercer. Doesn't look like it gets the best light, but definitely adding it to my list of places to check as it generally fits the profile that I like. I imagine 30 years would make one jaded. I've been looking for a place to buy off and on for the last 6 mos and I'm already getting jaded!

30 years, what do u think about my previous response.. Do you think it is a good hold?

I am totally unfamiliar with 59 William or at least I'm currently drawing a total blank on it.

storwal: you may want to look at this building as well:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/398963-coop-808-broadway-greenwich-village-new-york