So, owners, how are you consoling yourselves?

Yeah, I'm with you there. I love owning -- I really do. I love never worrying about rent increases or landlord changes. I bought well "below my means" so to speak, so I'm in a 30-year fixed mortgage in a place that I was planning on staying in long-term. I was, however, banking on high prices to push more people into gentrifying my more "marginal" neighborhood -- but with Manhattan becoming "more affordable", who knows when, or if, that will ever happen. In the meantime, I love my space.

"I bought well "below my means"

You should have bought a place twice the size for 12 times your income and then get bailed out by Timmy. I also bought below my means and I regret it.

I'm an owner as most of you know and I kind of regret buying. My house in northern NJ (which I don't live in as I live in Manhattan) is built like a piece of shit. In fact, I'm not even sure if I woudl ever live in the house again since the retaining wall has a mjor crack in it that might lead to the house collapsing onto the street below. Plus I doubt I am going to reamin in the NYC area much longer. And the property taxes are insane. In 2004 they were $8,000. Today they are $14,000. And I would absolutely love to dump the Mother F-er before the taxes inevitably hit $20,000.

I've liked the ownership experience but due to my interest in trading up to a larger place in the next two years, have decided to sell my place and rent for the next year or so. Owning is great since you dont have to worry about some of the things both NYC mentioned but it does come at a risk over the next few years if you have to sell.

Yeah, absolutely, gettingout. We've decided not to sell because we can't find an equiv. rental in our tiny school zone. So, FWIW, making the best of it and enjoying our life here.

I'm in an interesting situation where I own and rent out a condo in brooklyn, but live in a Manhattan rental. Given the low rents compared to high mortgages in Manhattan it makes sense financially for me.

We bought at or close to the last bust. Our monthly nut (maintenance and mortgage) is about half what we can theoretically afford to spend on housing.

That sounds good, but if we account for the opportunity cost of what we'd net from our paper profit, the monthly cost goes up to "normal".

No idea what we'd have been paying in rent all this time. I doubt we'd ever have found anything we wanted. (The whole rent-vs-buy thing assumes there's something to rent.)

The staying-in-NYC aspect goes without saying. I'll be leaving in a body-bag.

I have to admit, the sudden freezing of the market in Q4 '08 through January had me spooked. I consoled myself with the fact that I have been in the market since 2003, septupled my investment on my first property (gotta love leverage!) that I sold at peak, and that despite buying in 2007, I got a great deal on my apartment. I have 40% equity (at purchase price), and my monthly payments are $1200 lower than a comparable rental in my building, not accounting for the tax benefit. When we sold in 2007, we seriously considered renting, but the rental inventory in Manhattan kinda sucks. Yes, the buildings on the West Side Highway or Clinton or FiDi are nice, but they were commanding ridiculous rents at the time with no end in sight and frankly didn't seem that well-built. My pre-war is built like a tank and will still be here in 100 years. I will not, but like NWT, will probably exit in a body-bag as well.

We bought in ’98 so are still ahead of the game but like many people wish we’d cashed out in 07 and sat on the sidelines for a bit. Hindsight is everything. However, whenever I look at how expensive rents are and how much we would spend monthly to live comparably, I feel better about our decision to stay put. Plus, I love our apartment. If I have to be stuck anywhere, I’m happy to be stuck in a home that I love.

Scoots, agreed. We still could bail, though, assuming that we're still near the top of the curve. There was a thread a month or so ago re: why those of us sitting on bubble money don't get out while the getting's good, rent awhile, then get back in at bust prices. Besides inertia and fear, etc., there's the feeling that that paper profit was never real. We didn't bank on it, and losing it won't hurt as much as if we'd really earned it. That's my rationalization today, anyway.

nyc10023...i agree with you..i wish i owned because i could put down roots and not have to move every year or two..it gets tiring.

"the buildings on the West Side Highway or Clinton or FiDi are nice, but they were commanding ridiculous rents at the time with no end in sight and frankly didn't seem that well-built. My pre-war is built like a tank"

100% agree. few years from now the mkt will be divided not only by location and type (coop or condo) but also by built-to-last vs build during the bubble.

"there's the feeling that that paper profit was never real. We didn't bank on it, and losing it won't hurt as much as if we'd really earned it."

wow, makes sense, but this is the first time i hear somebody stating it.

That's because it's idiotic. As if money wasn't money whatever the source. I know I wouldn't be so cavalier about it if I'd done something for it. I have the same trouble getting up from a blackjack table when I'm ahead.

I have a house upstate and part of me wishes I had sold it. The family vetoed me when I told them in 2007 it was sell or stay for the duration. We're there for the duration.

We bought it for a ridiculously low price (or so it seemed in 2004), and it isn't any hardship. It just feels a bit silly, a tad imprudent and a lot illiquid. On the other hand, when I roam the 200 year old structure, consider my closet devoted solely to x-mas supplies, or cook in the kitchen/breakfast room which is 17x23, i'm fairly happy (although i'll be happier when I get rid of the dark cherry cabinets).

Hopefully we'll be able to leave it to our daughter, paid off.

I was pushing my partner to sell, so if he'd been a bit more persuadable, we'd have sold fall '07. I can't fault his reasons for wanting to stay.

"We didn't bank on it"

so you say that 100% of homeowners in USA banked on the "equity" that's evaporating? and that makes sense?

for me it's still shocking that people who plan on living forever in a house count the equity on that house as part of their wealth. it's like counting sth you have in theory in a place you cannot reach. sure, you can take a reverse mtg, then spend a month at a nursing home to discover that the house is not there for you any longer. then even if you plan to move but love to own (so cannot rent) you shouldn't count that "gift from heaven" either, as when moving you'll need to pay for that gift yourself. so just count a little % of it only when planning on downsizing or moving to a cheaper area... otherwise $0.

No, by "bank on it" I meant count it as capital we'd have to live upon some day. It was just gravy. As for the nieces and nephews who'll get what's left of it, in Tina's immortal words: "Eff them and their broken dreams."

It's agreed that lots of homeowners with equity were borrowing against it, sustaining a consumption binge. I've done plenty of stupid things, but not that.

"Eff them and their broken dreams." translation?

If you can pass it on to your kids when you kick this mortal coil then you could consider it part of your wealth, no?

NWT: I know people who sold in 2004 and rented thinking we had hit a peak. Then, a few months in, they thought they had made a huge mistake because prices kept their upward march so they bought at higher prices a year later. So the other danger of timing when the market direction or duration of that direction is not certain (it is different now of course and has been since Q3 08) is that, unless you hold out like aboutready did (so she has benefited) you could second guess yourself and make an expensive mistake.

We were fortunate to have bought before prices got really crazy in a place that was big enough for a family in a great school zone so we enjoy a great sense of stability. I have my wife to thank for that.
It would have been nice to sell with a huge profit, buy back a similar place at a discount and then be able to retire earlier but we can't have it all. Plus the decision is much more difficult to make with young kids in tow.

divvie, of course. but our daughter will be fine without any appreciation, or even with depreciation. A Lincoln Towers studio still costs almost as much as we spent for a 4000 sf house (nice one, on land I might add). It's within commuting distance of Albany, and I think smallish cities with colleges and reasonable services will become quite popular for both employers and employees as time marches on.

plus, as you pointed out divvie, i had already cashed out and wasn't willing to go back in, this was my compromise, enabling me to rent with more happiness. bought this one thinking i would be OK, but knowing that given the second-home nature of the purchase (although Albany is there) and the rather run-down nature of the location, it was never a no-risk situation. just didn't know it would become THIS illiquid, but so far we're ok with that.

Wow - a sensible thread airing opinions from property owners that hasn't been hijacked by the doom-sayers. Unbelievable...

I have similar stories from Wall St. friends who thought they were geniuses selling in 2004/05 timing a market peak - many panicked and bought back in around 2007. D'oh!

Helps that we're not smug owners. At least, if we're flushing our $ down the toilet, we're making good use of our place.

don't underestimate the possibilities of living up here. as we continue to spend more and more of our time out of NY, I continue to be pleasantly surprised by the diversity and nature of many of the people with whom we come in contact. Employment is, of course, an issue but as i have said in other posts, long distance work with some days in the city is becoming more and more realistic. Now, talk to me in February and I am sure I will be singing a different tune.

cc, talk to me as soon as our daughter is in college, and i'll be singing period. my husband's area of law is very flexible, location-wise. he already is out of the office for 8-10 weeks a year, working part-time remotely while we travel/full-time while we're upstate. but the kid really loves her school.

admin, it means I don't much care what the place is worth when we both kick. It'll be an extra chunk, or not.

divvie, exactly. I like to agonize over what to do, while knowing I'm not going to do anything.

My perfect retirement - spring/fall in NYC, winters in S. Europe, summers up north.

Ooh, I like that. I used to think cold in Florida, but that leaves you summer in the city, which gets bad.

Spring/fall absolutely does rule here.

I've definitely been thinking about vermont and maine or something like that for summers.

Winters, I have to think about it some more. Florida is just SO easy. And cheap now.

ha ha. keep dreaming. None of you guys are ever going to be snow birds.

You see why people accumulate places. I'm all for other people's extra houses.

Hawaii for winters, maybe Buenos Aires, or Costa Rica. And I'm looking alpine. My husband thinks it's too far away to buy in the near term, but if this plays itself out like I think it might, the medium-term (2013) might be fine. Plus, at the end of the day, who says you have to buy your retirement home(s)?

I've been consoling myself with gardening in my backyard, listening to the sound of Brooklyn in summertime (a duet of the birds in the trees and the kids in the street cranking Lil Wayne).

Tina
(Brooklyn broker)

> ha ha. keep dreaming. None of you guys are ever going to be snow birds.

Hey, whatever makes you feel better about your lot in life, alpine. Make up whatever you want.

But you're talking to a former snowbird....

sorry to burst your bubble (pun intended)

so what happened? How did you go from being a snowbird to a SE dick? Did you lose all your money or something like that?

Nah, I made even more shorting the bubble... obviously don't love what happened to S&P, but I'm within 15% of my all time high net worth right now...

But, rich or poor, doesn't matter to me. I just don't like dishonesty and hypocrisy, and can't help calling it out when I see it. My philosphy isn't dependent on my finances...

"made even more shorting the bubble" congrats! me too.

"Hawaii for winters, maybe Buenos Aires, or Costa Rica. And I'm looking alpine. My husband thinks it's too far away to buy in the near term, but if this plays itself out like I think it might, the medium-term (2013) might be fine. Plus, at the end of the day, who says you have to buy your retirement home(s)?"

Hawaii is great, but I can't see commuting back and forth.

BA is surprisingly easy. I hate red eyes, but its the perfect one. Enough time to sleep, and no jet lag!

BA is great. The perfect night flight.

This wouldn't be for commuting, though, would be later. I know better, but I like to look at the prices in Hawaii. But I can control my buying urges for quite a long time.

"BA is surprisingly easy. "

as long as you skip the winter and the summer, BA is ok.

Being a non-boomer, I do not expect to ever be able to retire. I save a large percentage of my income because I hope that someday I can put a down payment on a place to live for the rest of my life, that will eventually be paid off and allow me to use my retirement savings for medical bills and paying off TARP.

"Being a non-boomer, I do not expect to ever be able to retire."

if you have the option to opt out of SS and medicare, would you do it?

Are you kidding? My only desperate hope is to get a few crumbs from the safety net I've been paying into.

You guys need to get more than one passport :) preferably somewhere with universal medical insurance.

sure, anybody that's young in usa should! netherlands and the like... here we come!!!

The U.S. already has universal health care. It's called the ER.

Unfortunately I already married - another American. Not unfortunate that I married, of course, just that I will be stuck with my single nation passport.

Alpine, that is just callous.

evnyc, that doesn't make it easier to vote with your feet if you ever feel like it, but does not make it impossible either.

Alpine, why aren't you posting on the New Jersey board?

Or is there one for suburban virginia?

OTNYC.. .sorry to hijack your thread... what if you didn't quintuple your investment? You would be such a smug "owner".... and let's just say I agree if you bought your dream home in 2001 to 2005 and plan to get carried out horizontally then you are probably ahead. However, if your housing plans change due to children, job changes, schooling etc etc etc... then you were beholden to the vagaries of this RE Bubble.... and thats' my problem w/ this whole fiasco.... there was no ryhme or reason why someone like yourself (OTNYC) "lucked" out and why Julia has been a hapless renter wanting to put down roots.

Aboutready... Hawaii in winter, yes.

I've been consoling myself as an owner based upon the fact my "in" cost like yourself OTNYC was based upon $250psf back in the days and is just 10% of my net worth and is fully paid off as is my commercial properties. I am SOOOOOOOOO happy to have lost out on my $2.5MM flex 3 bid a couple of years back and my financials and marriage are much better for it :)

But don't kid yourselves.... if my mom wasn't using the 1bdrm, I would've hung a for sale sign TODAY.... cause I know that same unit will be worth $300K in 2 yrs and the flex three will be $1.25MM.... come on now... isn't there just that little hint of doubt about riding this thing all the way down? I mean.... my stock portfolio gyrates 20% on any given week.... but I have no doubt that your quintupling may at the end be just a doubling if you factor in inflation for the last 10 yrs.....

One other tidbit...you do remember that exactly 10 yrs ago (when I believe the NYC RE bubble really took off) an average NYC apt was priced at $500K.... today it's $1.5MM (even after the haircut).... so place your bets here.... my bet is that it'll be $673K (based on 10 yrs, 3%).... just one opinion... and OTNYC... it's Mr. West67 to you :)

"Alpine, why aren't you posting on the New Jersey board?"

Where do I live? I already told you 10,000 times and I will not tell you 10,001 times.

I hate owning, I hate that its inflexible, I hate the costs, and I hate how illiquid it is. I sold my apartment last month and lost a little bit of money after owning for 5 years. It just isn't for me, and I won't do it again unless I can pay cash for it and not care if I lose 100% of it. No one tells you that you have to factor in the cost of renovations say every 25 years, no one tells you that your property and maintenance goes up even if you get laid off or want a career change. No they just tell you that the cost of the mortgage stays the same, and think of all the equity you will be building. I owned the place for five years and I was better off in a CD or T note. Anyone that bought in the last five years in NYC is in the same boat I am. It's a huge headache to sell you lose 10% right off the bat. So if you do 20% down the second you bought the place you are down 50% of your investment, and it will take you another few years just to break even.

What really matters is when you got in. If you bought in the early 80s you will likely be fine, its all about entry. If you want to buy because you hate to rent that's a different story. Personally I would rather rent and let my landlord eat all the risk.

Yeah, if the rental stock was better in our area, W67 - I'd sell, take a loss or whatever.

craberry, interesting thought. i love owning ouy NYC apartment but HATED. i mean HATED owning a country home. i hated the drive, the maint., everything seemed to be broken. i have rented and owned in nyc. i actually don't feel much of a difference.

nyc10023... ps 199 ain't the be all and end all... parental guidance has 99% w/ kid's success or failure... take it form me who's 8th grade buddies were knocking up girls or getting knocked up.... having said that.... every person's threshold is different and for some housing is only 20% of their net worth/CF... then it's a matter of preference to have the "euphoria" of owning... but for me nothing beats getting a CC/RE tax stmt from my landlord and wondering how in the world this guy is okay w/ renting to me when his CC/Tax eats up 40% of his nut? I just don't get it :(

Like craberry... I love the flexibility of being a renter in this market.... it feels ABSOLUTELY GREAT! As an exercise.... I took the carry of the $2.5MM unit that I lost and my current rent and TRIED to spend the differential one month.... I could not do it! It was like 3 crazy shopping sprees w/ wife, dinner out at every 5 star rest in town and a random vacation... .and I still had $1K left over... it's just crazy..... one other point... .just b/c your in price was in 2001.... there is a little thing called "opportunity cost" of not selling and renting :) just to finesse this discussion alittle .... :) CHEERS to all us HAPPY OWNERS!

In the back of my head I get this nagging feeling that everything has changed, meaning owning will never make sense again for a generation. We need a world where jobs bring in real income, and people stop relying on stocks and real estate has their retirement funds.

I agree that PS199 isn't the be all and end all but once you're in a school, you don't want to transfer your kids. It's a hassle. Your perspective changes when you're the one doing all the schlepping. I want everything to be close and I have everything in a cozy triangle - shopping, gym, school.

I don't want to change this to a convo about education, blabla but every study out there has proven that parental guidance/involvement/whatever (barring abuse/neglect) has little to do with your kid's outcomes. It's peer group + genetics.

Craberry, I have the same feeling.

The more things change, the more things stay the same. Owning didn't make sense for more than a generation in NYC from 1930s to 1970s. The story of 740 Park is illustrative.

W67: you started the K application process yet :)

nyc10023.... you are preaching to the choir... love the triangle :)

FYI... for a boy it's the first hot chick he falls for... if she leans towards the nerds... you bring up your grades :)

So when his hormones start a raging.... make sure to point out how pretty the smart girls are :)

W67: you are fighting a losing battle here - smart girls are rarely pretty, but they do get under your skin.

K application.... I leave that to my better half :) She literally asked for SAT scores.... poor admissions people :)

nyc10023, i disagree with the studies. and, as a student of psychology and education, i can tell you that neglect/abuse is pervasive, and takes many forms. psychology/sociology could really use less specialization, and more world view.

Sure, but too many parents mistake their influence for what could be genetics.

well, you've got me there. sort of. genetics in terms of intelligence, which I don't think is, in the end, as important as a realistically healthy sense of self and the importance of said self generally? OCD?

I think the way most parents want to think about it (i want my kid to be perfect regardless of what I do), genetics aren't a factor, except to the extent that some children seem to be born with far more flexible personalities, and do better in adverse conditions.

the peer/parental involvement aspect i'd argue. parents are notoriously bad self-reporters in survey studies. what (other than how many drinks you have daily, maybe) will cause people to distort the truth more than do you spend time, quality or otherwise, with your kid, do you listen and engage? no judgments here, but it kind of reminds me of Freud deciding that molestation must be hysteria because his audience couldn't deal with anything else (and it would have totally destroyed his career. i think freud was the most important psychologist, but he couldn't get beyond, politically, certain issues. i think developmental psychology has somewhat the same issues today).

whoa, that was off-topic. sorry. maybe maladjusted children don't buy, but feel compelled to rent? then i can toss my post right back at myself.

"The story of 740 Park is illustrative." 10023, I didn't read the ginormous coffee table book. What's the story at 740 Park?

My advice to the boyos: always go with the smart girls. They're the prewar classic 7s of the dating world, and are worth the investment.

AR, I am so looking forward to meeting you at the meetup!

back at you, evnyc.

and my daughter, poor thing, is almost 5'10" at not quite 13, stunning (beyond the usual bias of a motherly hag), and extremely bright. she keeps telling me that she wishes people wouldn't have such high expectations for her, she just wants to be her dreamy self. but she was quite encouraged to hear that some of the boys, short though they may be, have circulated that she seems "pretty." I'll take that over hot any day.

and that is directly relevant to NYC real estate, because if you have kids or want them, there is a world they have to exist in here. are the suburbs better? not necessarily, and in some cases worse, but it pays to know.

How's this for a generalization? I've never known any girls/women who were universally acknowledged to be beautiful as teens/tweens and NOT get screwed up. Much better to be smart and not know that you're hot.

ah, 10023, you may be on to somehing there.

Agreed, 10023. But wow, am I ever jealous of 5'10". I'm the shortest person in my family.

There are many tall women in my partner's family. For some silly reason, they all want to be 5'8".

I dream of 5'8". I suppose that's what heels are for.

the grandparents in my daughter's family run 5'9" and 6' for the women, and 6' and 6' for the men. my husband and i both have brothers who are 6'4", and we both have nephews who are 6'6", and the husband himself is 6'2". I was the shrimp, at over 5'8". I think right now our daughter just wants to stop. but she may not get her way.