Subletting in a Coop

reprinted -

AVOID BROKERS AND THEIR FEES - GO DIRECTLY TO THE SOURCE OF YOUR RENTAL NEEDS. BROKERS TEND TO TAKE YOU TO SEE THESE NO-FEE APARTMENTS FIRST AS THEY EARN 100% OF YOUR 15% BROKER'S FEE. HUSH...HUSH... THEY WILL NOT TELL YOU IT'S A NO-FEE RENTAL PROPERTY :( NOR WILL THEY REPRESENT THAT PRIOR TO SEEING THE APARTMENT. SO IF YOU NEED TO RENT, CHECK OUT THE RENTAL PROPERTY MANAGEMENT WEBSITES AND CALL THEM FOR UPDATED LISTINGS. SAVE YOURSELF THAT 15% TO BUY YOURSELF NEW FURNITURE OR HAVE A MOVE-IN WELCOME PARTY FOR FRIENDS AND FAMILY.

Excellent “BIG-TIME” Manhattan Rental Property Management:

Rose (www rosenyc com)
Related Rentals (www relatedrentals com)
Equity Residental (www eqr com)
Rockrose Management (www rockrosenyc com) [mostly chelsea, village, financial district, downtown condos]
Sky Management (www skymanagement com)
Glenwood Managment (www glenwoodnyc com)
BLDG Management Co. 115 E 92nd St New York, NY 10128 (212) 722-4931
Brodsky Management, Inc (www brodskyorg com)
Maclowe Management (www macklowe com) [condos below 60th street]
Urban Associates – 400 W 59th St # 3, New York, NY (212) 245-1870

Above average property management (mostly prewar lowrise to a few postwar)
ATA Enterprise (www ataenterprises com)

Thanks, Manhattanfox.

I actually emailed this list to myself when you had posted it a while ago. I've diligently gone to all the web sites and have visited a bunch of buildings recently. I'm totally opposed to paying a broker's fee of any sort. In fact, I think we'll absolutely forego the coop sublet I mentioned if the owner insisted on it. But truth be told, when you are looking at a pretty specific neighborhood, the rental options start to shrink. Not to mention that I've been appalled at the sorts of kitchens and baths you get in most rental buildings.

Offhand, I guess the answer to your question about negotiating what are some pretty hefty fees here depends on how you size up your leverage. Overall, renters have a much stronger hand these days with many landlords picking up brokerage fees and absorbing other move in costs.
Even what was once completely sacred ground, the tenant security deposit, is now open for discussion if you are a high quality prospect.
The only difference here of course is that you're dealing I'm sure with an individual and his coop board....neither of which is going to behave like a professional Landlord anxious to fill empty appartments.
So I guess the answer is "How willing are you to walk away?"

kas, congrats on your sale. with a goal of renting for 12 months why not rent a good place, doesn't have to be a great place, then start your buy search when you want to get back in the game. the fees, the escrow, the cajones of the agent asking for 15% fee from you? sounding too klugey in a NY rental market like this one. Visited and liked places in HK and worked directly with LL's front of the house folks - would have rented in HK, was able to renego much to our surprise with existing LL and looking to buy.

Kas - we're in a very similar situation and we're also renting for a year as we look for our next home to buy. We decided to rent from one of the Rose buildings in the neighborhood where we're likely to buy. You're right that rental buildings have small kitchens and baths and a kind of space anonymity that is unexpectedly uncomfortable, although this building is really nice, great staff, amazingly quiet and the finishes are top quality. Still, we're not used to living in what I call a white box and it's motivating us to look hard and fast for the place to buy so we can move on.

Besides not wanting to pay all the fees you've listed which are common for coop and condo rentals (they're a great source of revenue for the buildings), the other big reason we chose a rental building over a coop or condo is care and repairs. An apartment owner is unlikely to be as quick or responsive to a broken stove or sticky door lock than the professional management in a top-tier rental building. And when you rent from a coop or condo and something breaks you can't go directly to the management company -- you must go to your landlord, i.e., the unit owner. In our previous building, a very nice condo, rental tenants needing help were often frustrated if their landlord was either out of town or just slow and not giving a damn (especially if they know you're probably only there for a year). By the way, we paid no broker fee, got a month's free rent, plus a big concession on the rent itself. And no moving fees!

i am in a glenwood building (sold in end of 2007) -- will rent for at least another year -- completely renovated kitchen, baths, floors, paint -- not my super swank multi million dollar place that I sold, but fantastic closet space and nice layout.

Kas and NextEra - What "moving fees" are you referring to? The cost of hiring movers? Beyond that, I'm in the dark and am surprised to hear that people think owners should pay for this. I must be misunderstanding something.

Thanks for all the good comments. USWmom, the moving fees are imposed by the coop board - the $ in no way goes toward actually paying your movers. In the case of the apt. I mentioned in the OP, there is a $1,000 fee for move-in and another $1,000 for move-out. Both are non-refundable. I was actually a little shocked by this -- I thought that if there was no damage to the elevator or hallway areas, then you would receive the money back. But as one poster above astutely pointed out, these fees help to generate revenue for bldgs. That seems to be the bottom line.

I know the easiest approach is to go through one of the big management agents, which is most likely what we'll have to do. I'm totally of the school that I am only in this damned rental for a year, so it better be a nice rental. Willing to pay up to $6000 for a two-bed, two-bath. Would prefer to be west of 2nd avenue between high 60s and high 80s. If anyone wants to throw bldg names out there -- I'm sure there are a few I haven't found! -- all suggestions are appreciated.

I was afraid that was what you meant. That's nuts. Robbery. I don't care how it's justified; it's unreasonable.

I think if you decide to negotiate with the coop owner you should definitely point out that it was his decision to buy into a building with such overreaching move-in/out fees and that those fees essentially go to his benefit in that he remains an owner of the coop corporation....so he should pay.
Not to mention that he is probably entitled to an income tax deduction for costs of arranging an income producing lease and you certainly are not.
Same for broker fees by the way

kas - not to be totally rude, but are you joking? This is the best rental market since 2001. You should not be paying any fees of any sort (move-in, broker etc.). If you love the target apartment so much that you are willing to flush $2k or more down the toilet, we would recommend that you expand your search :) Seriously...lots of amazing deals to be had.

-DT

http://downtowny.blogspot.com

Downtonwster - I respectfully disagree with you. There are "some" deals out there, but it's tough to find truly nice rentals. Prices are "better" than they have been in the last few years, but things are still VERY expensive and not all owners/LL's are offering big concessions (most likely b/c they don't all NEED to). People (renters) are still paying high prices and brokers fees. There's always someone who can and will pay more than you. This is a frustrating city.

Downtownster, point taken. We are constrained to a specific neighborhood because of job commute issues and dog (yes, okay, I know there are other parks besides CP, but I've become quite attached to the daily walks). And I admit that I have been spoiled by living with a great kitchen in a spacious apartment with wonderful light. So I suppose most rentals are going to look pretty dismal right now. I agree that paying a broker fee in this market is ridiculous; and to that end, I'm with you that I need to keep up the due diligence and trust that I'll find something suitable. The conclusion -- after reading this thread and watching my husband's eyeballs pop out when I went through the list of expenses for the sublet -- is that renting in a coop is rarely worth the hassle.

I think this thread is very interesting because it inadvertently highlights the differences (aside from the $$ issues always debated here) between renting and owning. For example, the fees that coops and condos charge for moving in and out of the building would of course seem outrageous to a renter, but when you're a long-term owner in an established, 100% owned (no sponsor left) coop or condo, it's gratifying to see the reserve fund get easy infusions of cash from the rental tenants who aren't invested in the building the way you are. And to the argument that's often made here about why buy when you can rent for less $$ -- there are both tangibles and intangibles associated with owning versus renting. We haven't rented in over 20 years and to be in this year of renting-while-looking-to buy, we've noticed that it's really different than being an owner and not in a good way. There's more transiency in the building, we don't know our neighbors, there are no architectural details in the apartment, there's lots of storage yet nothing seems to fit (because a rental can't be resident-specific). Is my rental building nice and am I lucky to live here? Of course. But boy -- I'll be so glad to buy again. Is this the best time to buy? Who knows. But life is short and I've lived enough to know that if you make every decision based on maximizing the return on investment, you're going to miss out on some living.

That's my speech. Now back to finding kas a nice rental.

Especially if you are paying a broker's fee rather than the unit owner, I wouldn't see anything wrong in saying to the unit owner "It's your Coop; you're getting the benefits of these fees (money is fungible: if money comes in thru fees it represents less maintenance needing to be collected), you made the rules (collectively as Coop owners), I'm paying the broker for finding the apartment, you pay the Coop for the fees you thought were reasonable to charge. if they aren't reasonable, why should i pay them instead of you?"