doorman vs. no doorman

Look, there is virtually no one who has a doorman and says, "I'd rather not have one next time." There are people who do not have a doorman who feel that works fine for them, but of those, if they had the option, many would choose to have a doorman and would never go back again.

My life, as any NY'er's, is full of an infinite number of annoying little things to coordinate, remember, deal with. Doorman and super help take away some of those things or cover my mistakes. Those extra keys in the lobby closet are a god-send. Packages, laundry, messages, things left at the desk to be picked up by friends/work/etc. Also, in the 18 years I lived in my last coop there wasn't a single burglary--doormen make it hard to carry a TV out the lobby. Help to/from the car, with groceries.. Just last night my arms were full of stuff for my storage unit in the basement and the doorman practically leaped to get the elevator for me, pushed the buttons, offered to carry some for me.

It's just nice. It's being pampered in a really practical way. Of course we could all find a way to live without a doorman, but why would you? It is just a matter of cost.

Why aren't there any doorwomen?

The one thing i did not find helpful was a part time doorman. He was there to open the door in the am, but in terms of packages, keys ect it was not very helpful as when i was arriving home he was gone. Again, others may find a way to work around it bit i did not find much value in it.
It was not that nice of a building so perhaps that had something to do with it

Excerpt from a NY Times article: " In fact, most doormen would apparently rather live without a doorman even if they could afford it, according to Peter Bearman, a Columbia University sociology professor and author of "Doormen" (University of Chicago Press, 2005), a study of the profession. They perceive the insular, elitist boundaries created by their presence as unnatural, Professor Bearman said in an e-mail message, and they are loath to jeopardize their privacy.

"Doormen know how much they know about tenants and would prefer not to have someone know that about them," he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/09/realestate/09doorman.html?ei=5088&en=2414b89d9b5255d4&ex=1302235200&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=print

alanhart
about 6 months ago
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I don't mind the tipping part, but not being a people-person (at all), I hate having to say Good Morning, How Are You?, Have a Good Day, Have a Good Night, Feeling Better?, et cetera.

Even worse, though, is the lonely unhappily married guy from 10J who tortures the evening-shift doorman with hours of spectator-sports conversation -- and causes me great agony in the process. I hate that guy. You know the one I mean.

Well, I dont understand the tipping part. For instance for a taxi, why do you have to tip a cab driver? They charge to drive you from point a to point b. There is no additional service. Now for a garage attendant, why do we give him a tip to drive our car out of the garge. Isnt that there job? I think this tipping thing has gone overboard in the US. I think people made it up and it became a standard. Why not stick your hand out for a tip? The worst can happen is that you dont get one but after a few guys do it, it is now a standard? Can someone explain why?

KyleWest--My grandmother's building had a doorwoman for many years--for all I know she may still be there...She had zero interest in gossiping but she was totally power mad! Once she took it upon herself to lecture me about my clothing choices, letting me know in no uncertain terms that it was simply NOT appropriate to parade thusly attired in her building!

There are doorman who are women out there; have come across a few doing volunteer work.

Also, having been in/out of a lot of NYC doorman buildings, there are different levels of doorman service.

In some buildings with a single doorman, you have to open the door always because the doorman is tucked behind a desk observing, receiving visitors and packages, making phone calls, etc. It's clear by the way they are situated in the lobby that the intention was never for them to open the front door.

I have been in buildings with a single doorman who open the door for you, but my experience a lot of doorman buildings are not set up this way. It's a person, usually a guy, behind a desk.

Doorman service varies from building to building, and it is totally great and nice when a building has a doorman that actually opens the door for you and I think is particularly impressive to people from out of town who visit to see that level of service.

If you go into the top tier buildings in CPW for example, doors are opened for you, there are multiple staff working the lobby, sometimes there are elevator operators who push the button for you.

I know the original poster asked about doorman in terms of safety, but I think it is interesting that doorman service means different things in different buildings.

Thank you people on streeteasy!!! This has been a wealth of information.

Couple final thoughts:

Bubbles, I agree about part-time doorperson. Anything is better than nothing, but I'm not a fan of the part-time, the "virtual" or "cyber" doorperson or any variation on the regular full staff. It leaves unacceptable gaps in what I value. I wouldn't personally look in a building with anything other than a regular staff. I don't care about getting up to open the door for me, but everything else I already discussed is important to me.

Re: doormen don't want to have a doorman: rationalization. I can give you a hundred reasons why I wouldn't want to drive a Bentley Continental or have a home on Cap d'Antibes to use 10 days a year. But that doesn't mean its true.

As for interaction, doormen quickly learn who is chatty and which tenants aren't. My partner is a 'nodder' who doesn't even say, 'good evening.' I'm a little friendlier, but not much. The line has to be maintained. I've found too much familiarity is not a good thing in such relationships in the long-run. And without info being given, they have none to share with anyone else. My comings and goings I couldn't care less about. I concede that if you are a cheating scoundrel then you shouldn't have a doorman if your other half lives in the building with you.
Finally, I think I love the doorwoman who scolds the inappropriately attired. 'Shame' is used too little to maintain civility these days. We need more shame!

At the end of the day do you feel it's worth $200 a month. Many people have said yes, many people have said no. Ignore the fact that it's bundled into a rent or a monthly service charge. It's not free and you are paying for it. Is it something you would pay for if it was simply an option?

Right now it's simply a set of conveniences I'm willing to pay for. I work hard and often leave before 7 and arrive home after 7pm. To have someone open the door, press the button in the elevator (operated from behind the desk), simply greet me welcome, accept my laundry, accept my dry cleaning, accept my packages, accept my fresh direct, accept my flower deliveries, announce visitors, give me the spare set of keys when I lock myself out (it happens), allow entrance to my cleaner, allow entrance to other workmen etc..etc..

That being said, there are times in my life when the thought of spending $200 every month for somebody to do some very basic services would have seemed excessive. I'm sure there will be other times in my life where things are less hectic and I can see myself, once more, not valuing the services so much.

lol@kylewest approving of my adolescent shame!

So having a doorman is equivalent to driving a Bentley? Nice try. Who is rationalizing here?

smallmj is right. Its generally a benefit but one you have to pay for or have other tradeoffs. I have lived in doorman buildings. I don't anymore. I might for example prefer to share outdoor space with a couple of other tenants in a low-rise neighborhood where you can see the sky from the street. I value that over convienence.

If you value a doorman more power to you. Enjoy. But to think that everyone who doesn't have one is just jealous is ridiculous.

malthus, i think you misread my posts. my point (however absurdly made) about the Bentley is that it is silly to poll people about what they hypothetically would like/dislike about lifestyle choices in a relatively wealthier economic group and draw from that poll conclusions as to the value of the lifestyle elements involved. The poll makes no sense and conclusions seem silly.

I'm also addressing apartment building of average size--not comparing a 4 unit low-rise to a 140 unit apartment building. If it isn't clear, I think the discussion is really focusing on if living in an apt building, is it that big a deal to have a doorman? This wasn't, as I read it, a comparison of townhouses and pre-war apartment buildings. Obviously, that's apples and oranges. Forgive me if you thought I was implying that someone in a converted townhouse with 8 units and no doorman is necessarily "jealous" of buildings with a doorman. It certainly isn't what I thought--or meant to--write.

Ok. My bad kylewest. I did think that doorman story was pretty interesting though.

""Doormen know how much they know about tenants and would prefer not to have someone know that about them," he said."

Like I said 58 posts ago, to gossipy.

To gossipy, and step on it!

I meant two gossipy.

I have lived in both. Doorman buildings are usually cleaner and nicer. I think with the economy going the way it is, even if you live in a good area, it's important to live in a doorman building. If anyone remembers the way New York was when Mayor Dinkins was in charge, there were muggings, drugs and all kinds of unsavory people doing god knows what around town. Hopefully NY will not go back to that, but in case it does it is important to have a doorman for security. Also it makes getting packages much easier.

For the millionth time, crime started increasing markedly in NYC and the US as a whole in the sixties, and the rise continued unabated throughout booms and busts, and declined in NYC and the US as w whole markedly starting in the early 90s, throughout boom and bust. Bad economy, good economy, NYC was high crime until 15 or so years ago, and then the reverse.

I can't find a source for data, but I'd bet of the violent crimes occurring in apartment buildings, those in non-doorman buildings greatly exceeds those in buildings with doormen.

Income-adjusted?

Besides SAHMs there are also all sorts of folks who work from home. My neighbor and I aren't friendly, (barking issues) but we gladly accept packages for each other. Get to know your telecommuting neighbors if you aren't into having a doorperson.

Again, the hit-and-miss "neighbor at home" is no replacement for the consistent reliability of a doorman.

"Income-adjusted?"

Right. There are doorman buildings in low-income areas where the doorman is really a security guard, and high-end Tribecca loft buildings that are unattended.

In the middle of Bearman's Doormen: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Doormen/Peter-Bearman/e/9780226039701/?itm=1. Very good read.

Re: the quote above about doormen not wanting to live in doorman buildings themselves -- preferring their own neighborhoods -- they do tend to want their children to live in doorman buildings.

Having lived in buildings with a doorman as well as buildings with just a live-in super, having a doorman is much better. You don't really lose any privacy with having a doorman unless you want to discuss your personal business with them. We lived in a buiding where someone was dealing drugs out of their apartment and without the doorman noticing all the traffic in/out of the apartment, it would have probably escalated to a bad situation. Most doormen basically open the door for you and sign for your packages. They are there as a deterrent to people just wandering in the building.

No, doorman are all in your business even if you never speak to them. As I said 68 posts ago, my ex-roommate used to hear about who I slept with and had over for parties and such from the doorman, and who was cheating on who with whom and when and who was a closeted gay, etc. If they don't hear it from tenants they just make it up and gossip about it anyway.

I HATE living in a doorman building! Hate. SOOO nosy and gossipy and such a fakey-fake person. Oh, wait...he's not a doorman, he's a "concierge", 'scuuuuuse me! I get why people like the convenience and security, but the price you pay is some nosy-parker up in your business 24/7 and that whole tipping BS. Tip? Why? He gets paid to do what he does, why do I have to tip him for doing what I already pay him to do? The unspoken threat of his "losing" packages, etc., if you DON'T tip is extortion, IMO. If I had it all to do over again, I'd DEFINITELY refuse to consider doorman buildings.

How much does a full-time doorman or a part-time doorman affect maintenance costs? Does anyone have any information on the salaries and benefits? How many people usually are needed to fill the shifts?

I'd estimate that the full cost of a doorman (salary and benefits) is ~$50k. I'd assume that there are three shifts per day, seven days a week (full-time) for 21 shifts. Would that require five people for a total cost of $250k? Could you have two part-time doormen for $100k total? Any help with my math would be appreciated.

Also, how does a no doorman vs. part-time doorman vs. full-time doorman affect resale value of prices overall? Has anyone seen data on this? Would someone spend $1.5mm on an apt. in a non-doorman building? $2.5mm? Is there a ceiling?

lived in both, prefer doormen bldng hands down...

..after the initial 'omg he knows who i'm sleeping with,' you really learn to realize these guys (or gals) have SEEN IT ALL, then you stop caring, and actually start bragging about the hot slut from last night.. lucky for me my new doorman is young n hot, maybe he'll join us next time..

..convenience is key (and i'm a bad doorman tipper since I don't believe they deserve it.. I tip waiters minimum 25% since i don't pay for their healthcare/pensions).. he never goofs up on deliveries/dry cleaning/keeping unwanted 'visiting' extended family at bay who want to pimp me for my pad's proximity to CP..

.. for my rentals they drop off/receive key to tenants, fwd tenant queries to super without getting me involved, let time warner in n out and actually sign on my behalf (with approval email) so i don't have to run over and disturb my liquid lunch.

Non doorman with kids: If your kids are at the age where they are walking home alone, and if you don't have someone (housekeeper, yourself, your spouse, etc.) in your apartment every single time the kids come home, it's not a good idea. You want the kids to come home to someone, whether it be a doorman in the lobby (just to make sure the kids come home safely, no one following them, etc.) or yourself. If you don't have someone always in your apartment, then a non doorman building isn't a great idea.

Part time doorman: Most part time doorman building have doormen in the daytime, but not between midnight and maybe 7 or 8am. In that case, if the apartment works for you, definitely consider it. However: I know someone who's apartment building has a doorman from 7pm to 7am. I think the idea behind it is that you're safe at night. In that case, I would definitely look at other options before making an the apartment.

Full time doorman: Full time doormen are great in terms of safety and services. I prefer full time doorman buildings.

""I'd estimate that the full cost of a doorman (salary and benefits) is ~$50k""

Try more like $75 to $95 all in.

The other issue about doormen (and live-in super) is that they can work against you. In my building in midtown east, the super used his access to the proxy votes for the Board elections to act as an agent of a couple of shareholders in the building who rigged the elections. The super also extorts money from certain shareholder residents, telling them that they can not do certain things unless they pay him a fee, not in those words, but the message is clearly understood. There's more, but at the end of the day, unless you have absolute proof (such as video or unassailable witnesses, you end up being at the mercy of this organized crime.

Dealing with doormen ( everyfucjdfvgfving day) is like dealing with TSA goons. Better avoided

The current 32BJ contract gets doormen $20.2158 per hour, or $42,000.

In my building, payroll taxes and benefits add 40.5% to salaries. Figure $60,000 total, including uniforms and odds and ends.

Thank you jsw363 for taking this in a practical direction. Although a few vocal posters might disagree, most would want a doorman if it were free, and most would only willing to pay a particular max for that privilege. So, the question is "how much?" The cost of a doorman per apartment is hugely dependent on the size of the building, so the decision a building makes is going to be dependent on that. However, for the purpose of this discussion, a better question to all is "how much extra are you willing to pay in maintenance (or rent) to have a full time doorman?" "a part time doorman?"

For owners it's easy to quantify. $660 of my monthly maintenance goes for labor. That's eight guys in an 83-apartment pre-war co-op.

Without doormen we could maybe run the building with two men, but it'd more likely be three. Figuring two, that makes it $490 per month for my share of the doormen. Throw in another $50 or so per month for Christmas, so say $550.

Looking at in glaring numbers, I might not've gone for a doorman building, but overall it's worth the money.

As usual, kylewest says it best, somewhere up above here.

just to clarify, it's definitely possible to prefer doormen building, while vocalizing how overpaid they actually are for their position at board meetings to reneg.

I saw this commentary on premium for doorman buildings fascinating--it's a significant decline.

"Data shows that the premium that renters are willing to pay for doormen has shrunk dramatically in the past two years. Between 2010 and mid-year 2011, the premium for rental apartments in buildings with attended lobbies dropped 36 percent for studios, 21 percent for one-bedrooms and 18 percent for two-bedrooms, according to a market report compiled by real estate consulting firm and brokerage Nancy Packes Inc., in collaboration with StreetEasy. In 2010, for example, the average monthly rent for a studio apartment in a non-doorman building was $1,774; by mid-2011, that figure had shot up 23 percent to $2,188. In the same time period, the average rent for a studio in an attended building increased just 9 percent, from $2,416 to $2,635."

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/ditching-the-doorman

>jsw363 - but the telling number is the 20% PREMIUM for the doorman rental.

While there's a 20% premium for a doorman rental, I'm not sure that we can extrapolate to purchasing condos or coops. Are there certain kinds of apartments that "require" a doorman (at least part-time) to retain their value compared to comps (e.g., Classic Six)? Are there types of buildings where doormen don't affect value as much (e.g., condos, post-war)? These are all hypotheses--I'd just like to hear others thoughts on the value premium--rather than personal experiences with doormen.

i hate having a doorman, two per shift, they make me very uncomfortable, always being noisy..

The key to marketability eithr rental or purchase is that there are "doorman people" who will not consider anything but a doorman building. Therefore the market for non-doorman buildings is a smaller universe. There are very few "non-doorman people", it's only a matter of price.

Also doorman buildings generally have better amenities like garages, health clubs, pools, roof top outdoor space, balconies, etc.

The key to a good doorman building is it shouldn't be so small that the costs become prohibitive or so large that the buidling is impersonal and you become anonymous. The best size generally falls between 100 and 200 apartments.

Did they do this by neighborhood? Part of the reason Doorman premium has shrunk is in fact because the # of doorman buildings in Upper Manhattan (above 96th on the East, above 110th on the West) has about quadrupled in the past 10 years. Versus maybe 25% more non-doorman rentals.

So that would make the "average" doorman unit lower than it otherwise would be.

Depends if you like your doorman knowing your business. They can be very useful, but agreed with the other post Live in Super is a must...and could replace a doormans duties for holding keys, accepting large packages etc...

It is no brainer that all else equal having a doorman is better. Problem is how much it costs. For a very large building, per apartment it could be reasonable. But for a small building it would be way too much. These days all new construction buildings that don't have doorman utilize Virtual Doorman or similar remote doorman services that let delivery people into the lobby and into a package room where they leave packages, drycleaning etc. They provide some safety as well as there are cameras all over the place. So if you have this all you need a doorman for would be safety.

I recently just bought an apartment and was looking specifically for non doorman buildings. I've lived in doorman buildings before and, while the accepting of packages was convenient, my super handles all of that and more. I just found the whole doorman/tenant relationship to be very artificial and uncomfortable and prefer my privacy. Also, while some doormen are great, some are more of a hassle than they're worth imo. I'd rather have a good live in super.

" while the accepting of packages was convenient, my super handles all of that and more. "

Until he can't.

Unless it's a specific duty outlined in his job description, he will make accepting your packages a priority at his convenience.

I don't know what your super does that enables him to sit around and accept packages, but my super is ALWAYS on the move, and very rarely just happens to be in his apartment when USPS/UPS/FedEx rings his buzzer to accept other tenants' packages.

In our building they built a new massive storage closet just to put all the packages. Incredible the number that arrives everyday. With the advent of amazon, doormen are now more important than ever as they add so much convenience.