East Village New Developments

NYRENewbie, you're very welcome. Your kind words are appreciated.

Here are a couple of updates:

-The Flowerbox Building at 259 East 7th has another listing which got some attention in Curbed: "Curbed Price Chopper: East Village's Flowerbox Wilting?"

http://curbed.com/archives/2009/07/30/curbed_pricechopper_east_villages_flowerbox_wilting.php

What Curbed doesn't have is 30yrs researching their sales histories. Note his post above:

"The declaration lists 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, 3A, 4A, PH, and ST1 (storage room).

Oddly, it does NOT list G, which did transfer (for 2,375,000) and is in the Schedule A described as 122SF of storage space on the first floor and the rear yard of 954SF."

So even though the connection isn't made on StreetEasy's page for the building (there's no unit number for the $2.375MM sale in Oct 07), we know that unit 1 is asking 7.5% less than its own sale price.

Curbed is wrong about unit 3 being in contract. While the Corcoran brokers "forgot" to remove those words from the listing, it's clearly back on the market with open houses scheduled.

-189 Ave C has a website up advertising rentals: http://www.189avec.com/. Funny that they call it the Lower East Side instead of the East Village (never mind Alphabet City). No prices listed. Building looks great, classic brick with large windows, but location will be tough: Mitchell-Lama highrises across the street to the east and Campos Houses to the north.

These two articles, taken back-to-back, make for some great reading on the subject of East Village real estate. The first, courtesy of EV Grieve, is from New York magazine in 1984, when prices were skyrocketing and looked like they would never come down (click the images to see the scanned pages at full size):

http://evgrieve.com/2008/06/lower-east-side-there-goes-neighborhood.html

The second is a well-known Times article from 1991, where people are panicked trying to unload apartments they bought during the runup:

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/09/29/realestate/prices-decline-as-gentrification-ebbs.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Here we are, 18 years later.

Thanks Ten,
Your comments are, as usual, on the money. I read the articles and also found them helpful. This is a great little section of town to keep an eye on. I also like the tie in ideas that relate to WB. I see sq/ft prices heading south soon. You can only hang on to the dream so long. For those of us who have come to admire this neighborhood prehaps our keen eye can spot a diamond in the ruble of these failed dreams. One man gathers what another man spills.

It is my belief that while Wb and EV pricing have some relationship in part because a decent amount of WB buyers and renters were/are wannbe EV buyers/renters, that it's incorrect to tie their fates too closely together because of the inherent characteristics of the 2 neighborhoods. Were this a different time, I'd more closely tie WB to Tribeca or Dumbo than the EV, but I think that ship has sailed.

One thing which at this point (and has been for some time) is that the EV has something fairly unique, almost more than any other neighborhood in NYC: at any one time over the past 2 to 3 decades, there have been large groups coming to NYC for the first time (and many for a limited time) who have a VERY specific want to be in the EV. For a long time it was the Japanese, who paid relatively staggeringly high rents compared to what was available in other places. Then came the dot com-ers (especailly the younger, techier one's).

I think this will continue, regardless of what happens to pricing in general in NYC or the EV, which will make it harder to predict what will happen. It's also one of the reasons for my earlier prediction for the smaller buildings to get bought and rented out rather than completed as condos. I think it's VERY different than Harlem and other areas where Condo pricing is more logically tied to rentals; in other word, I think the rent roll multiplier in the EV will be different than in many other areas due to the transient, high paying group of tenant who have been the "best" target tenants for landlords in the EV for quite some time.

"It is my belief that while Wb and EV pricing have some relationship in part because a decent amount of WB buyers and renters were/are wannbe EV buyers/renters, that it's incorrect to tie their fates too closely together because of the inherent characteristics of the 2 neighborhoods."

The first part of your statement is, essentially, what I see between them as well. I don't expect the EV to suffer the same fate as a neighborhood with 4-figures of mostly unwanted inventory, but I do see many of those who would consider the alternative being drawn to WB by the further decline in prices. I think that'll be a consequential drain on demand, even if the markets don't move in lock-step.

It's an interesting point you make about the waves of renters. They certainly aren't buying the units anymore (when bulls say "but everyone wants to live here!" I always wonder "then why can't these condos in my neighborhood sell six - hell, two! - units?"), so I'll be curious to see if they rescue the developments from fire sales.

I was surprised by this, mentioned by truthskr10 on the "Sold! Maybe.?" thread:

137 Avenue C
A 4,000-square-foot, four-story brick building with six apartments and a ground-floor restaurant. The rentals and commercial space generate an annual rent of $151,594.

At the Auction
Pre-auction asking price $3.2 million (summer 2008)
Starting bid: $1.45 million
Not much action, with the highest bid tipping slightly over $1.6 million, much less than the $2.5 million reserve.

What the Experts Say
“Generally speaking, with income-producing properties, [the price] is at ten or twelve times the rent roll,” explains Rosenblatt. Translation: $1.6 million is a decent offer.

http://nymag.com/realestate/features/58178/index2.html

The building sold for $1.48MM in June 04. The closing bid was $1,605,000 on 06/16/2009. That stretch of Ave C has definitely come up in the past 5 years (including 137's Sunburnt Cow - featured on America's Next Top Model! - though I've gotten brutal hangovers from the cheap champagne in the all-you-can-drink mimosas). Just an anecdote, of course, but it doesn't speak very well to investor demand.

http://www.bidonthecity.com/properties/overview.php?id=1082

Haven't had time to post lately, but after last night's and last week's events I feel a need to correct a previous comment ("Fortunately, things seem to have quieted down"):

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/08/23/2009-08-23_deadly_shooting_at_east_village_bar_bouncer_killed_2_wounded_outside_forbidden_c.html

http://www.thelodownny.com/leslog/2009/08/police-investigate-shooting-on-east-12th-street.html

The Lowdown also linked to this one that I wasn't aware of from July:

http://www.thelodownny.com/leslog/2009/07/beyond-tru-lifes-arrest-growing-fears-of-a-violent-summer.html

Stay safe, folks.

I used to go there a lot with friends to eat late (almost always in the front tables, not back in the dining section). Loved the food, especially the braised pork. Knew the guy who got killed, but just by "hello" and "goodbye". Unless things changed there recently (I have not been in a couple of months), I'm not sure this is a case of a "club bringing in a bad element" to a neighborhood, and would not be surprised if they catch the guy that it turns out to be beef from somewhere else that just found it's way to where this guy was at the time.

They caught Sunday's shooter, an East Harlem resident arrested in Gramercy, a different kind of crime than the local vs. local violence the neighborhood's seen over the summer. He wasn't in the club, just driving past when he was "dissed" by some folks leaving the club after he grazed them with his car. This is similar to the stabbing death at Guernica a few years back, more a function of gangsta culture where brushing up against someone's pride/raging insecurity can get you killed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/nyregion/25arrest.html?_r=1

no different than on SE, you diss my post, I'm gonna drive by with my unicorn and throw some epithets at you mothers!

EV Grieve has this related post today:

http://evgrieve.com/2009/08/press-advisory-stop-violence.html

And in much lighter news, there was a massive price chop at 96 Ave C:

11/15/2007 Previously Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $5,500,000.
12/14/2007 Prudential Elliman Listing is no longer available. Last priced at $5,300,000.
03/03/2009 Also Listed in StreetEasy by GMAC Metropolitan Properties at $5,000,000.
07/16/2009 Re-listed by GMAC Metropolitan Properties.
08/25/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Weichert - Property Works at $3,800,000.

Always makes me wonder if they read StreetEasy. Price increase at 96 Ave C, but still down 24% from late 07 ask. I wonder if they know about 137 up the block.

11/15/2007 Previously Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $5,500,000.
12/14/2007 Prudential Elliman Listing is no longer available. Last priced at $5,300,000.
03/03/2009 Also Listed in StreetEasy by GMAC Metropolitan Properties at $5,000,000.
07/16/2009 Re-listed by GMAC Metropolitan Properties.
08/25/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Weichert - Property Works at $3,800,000.
08/28/2009 Price increased by 11% to $4,200,000.

ten, i know that's a multi-unit, 6 i believe, but this looks so funny for a multi-family investment property. the activity for the building looks downright scary. the roi looks highly dubious, at least at the moment.

1 Building
2 for sale at $4,200,000 - $5,000,000 15 for rent at $2,295 - $5,595 96 Avenue C in East Village

Just noticed that the only unit in contract at 525 E. 12th St. no longer is.

02/08/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $1,565,000.
05/07/2008 Price increased by 4% to $1,625,000.
12/13/2008 Price decreased by 4% to $1,565,000.
01/12/2009 Price decreased by 10% to $1,408,500.
03/13/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/25/2009 Listing is no longer available.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/180705-condo-525-east-12th-street-east-village-new-york

96 Avenue C was suppoused to be a development. Owner fixed up rental units in hopes of selling the entire building. Owner also tried to buy the empty lot next door, but that owner refused to sell and tried developing solo as they owned the adjacent building on East 6th Street. These long time owners do not need to sell, they're simply put it out there and if someone bites, they take it, if they don't they try and develop it themselves. "massive price chop" - it shouldn't have been listed for that price in the first place, so paying attention to price drops can deceptive. No, they are not reading Streeteasy. When Wiechert takes over a brokerage you know a development is in trouble as brokers are hungry for good listings and any developer that gives to Weichert is probably difficult to work with and are not reading Streeteasy and your very insightfull posts. 525 East 12th is a perfect example. The unit that sold in that building was a foreign buyer who immediately rented the unit. Lastly, the closer you are to transportation and 1st Avenue the better the prices will be, that simle.

""massive price chop" - it shouldn't have been listed for that price in the first place"

I completely agree, hence my reference to 137 and it's recent sale at a fraction of that price in a better location (though obviously an older building). The rents they are asking at 96 seem high, though, and there have been many vacancies for a good long time, which makes me wonder if the owner may now be in trouble from construction costs.

"When Wiechert takes over a brokerage you know a development is in trouble"

That's what I (and others here) thought when they hung their sign at 525 E. 12th.

"525 East 12th is a perfect example. The unit that sold in that building was a foreign buyer who immediately rented the unit."

Is that a certainty? It was immediately listed for sale after purchase and made me think it was a party related to the developer.

Thanks for your input, as well as the compliment.

I stand corrected, it was the 3rd Floor that sold and then was rented. The 4th Floor has never sold and is still available. The broker at the building is Glenn Schiller a respected expert on the East Villiage (an no, I am not Glenn Schiller). If it were up to him I am sure the prices would be cheaper, but it is clear this developer doesn't have a clue and doesn't understand the market.

After more than two years of claims (including some very suspect attempts on this board) that the penthouse at the Flowerbox Building at 259 East 7th St. had pre-sold for nearly $10MM, it closed instead last week for $5.7MM. Construction on the unit is still incomplete.

Curbed called it "still an epic price for the location," but it comes in at $863 per interior square foot, a nice drop from original prices, despite its 1500 square feet of private outdoor space.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/259-east-7-street-manhattan

http://curbed.com/archives/2009/08/31/10_million_living_on_avenue_d_gets_a_discount.php#more

Well, if it sold incomplete, the "real" price is actually higher than the $5.7MM (but no, I don't think there's another $4.3MM worth of work to to)

30yrs, I think it's safe to say it will be delivered finished. I just mentioned that because a poster here had falsely claimed months ago that the owner (though there wasn't one yet, which had been my point) was constantly remodeling, as an excuse for the ongoing construction. There has been progress, the netting and wood panels are down, but you can see unfinished ceilings and some work materials through the windows.

BTW, finally made it to Mason's place. I have to admit, I was boycotting while he was advertising jello shots on the board outside. The house lager is delicious, bartender was very sweet and the grilled cheese is a dangerous guilty pleasure.

"30yrs, I think it's safe to say it will be delivered finished." - I heard that the exact opposite.

Dorai, would you please tell me exactly and specifically what you heard and from whom? There has been tremendous hype and misinformation spread about this building, and numerous false claims made on this site. The developer and Warburg brokers spoke about the nearly-$10MM pre-sale multiple times in the press when it clearly wasn't true. If I was a buyer there I'd be livid. Other obvious brokers or concerned owners have come here to defend the building with more lies, the one about the "owner" not being able to make up his mind and constantly re-renovating being one of the most ridiculous.

I've seen the construction progress with my own eyes (the exterior anyway, which appears finished). I'm not trying to be nasty, but any statements made in defense of this development (which changes unit #s between sales listing and tax filing to obscure the paper trail) need to be backed with serious proof. It's blown any hope of credibility.

I heard about it from a friend doing the construction on the penthouse, but maybe he was lying too. I don't know. I would suggest simply calling any broker working the building and see if you can get the truth and post it here for all of us to see.

"I would suggest simply calling any broker working the building and see if you can get the truth and post it here for all of us to see."

Dorai, you have an awesome sense of humor.

Curbed had a report yesterday on substantial progress at 123 3rd Ave. Also mentioned were 17% price chops from the original offering plan ($1200/sf to $1k/sf). The place-holder website announces sales starting in late fall.

http://curbed.com/archives/2009/09/08/123_third_getting_ready_to_test_the_14th_street_market.php#more

226 Stanton has its facade up, and though I think the development has other issues to worry about, hats off to the choice of dark brick and large but not full-wall windows.

"Also mentioned were 17% price chops from the original offering plan ($1200/sf to $1k/sf)"

Fodder for the "chasing the market down" thread?

Curbed had a very funny Copper Building update today. They finally have some renderings in the listings. The kitchen looks nice, but the 'large windows looking out on tenements across a narrow street' thing is a bit creepy. The balconies look like the shallow step-out, not sit-down, variety. The funniest part, though, is the exterior rendering where the Campos Houses were sculpted and de-windowed and a large non-existent modern tower was added to block what would have been Stuy Town.

http://curbed.com/archives/2009/09/14/avenue_bs_copper_building_eliminates_the_competition.php

http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=1137804&rentalperiod=&SearchType=Broker_Current&Region=NYC&BID=BKM

that's just cold. leaving the project and eliminating ST.

Ten,
be reasonable, did you see the pricing on this one bedroom and balcony? I can't believe they restrained themselves to just a little touch up. If I was running their marketing department we be cut and pasting the Eiffel tower into the background. Hey, what's that out the bedroom window...is that the Matter Horn?

you guys are cracking me up... :o)

No one noticed they also turned the other 3 corners of Ave B and 13th St into parks?

clearly i was focused on my own personal issue. :)

isn't there a great italian restaurant that serves boar, etc., around there?

You thinking of "Hearth" on First Avenue?

PS I can't find where we were talking about large spaces in the EV and with my usual snarkiness I said how "an experienced broker" could show you where they were, so I'll leave this here:

http://www.prudentialelliman.com/1048259

Hey one of my orphans went into contract at 213 east 2nd!
This is the doing of the infamous meeting misser....Shawn Felker

Hat off to Shawn for moving the a stone so large that even the lord himself could not move!
Bravo!!!
and a outlaw to boot.........................

Looks like the Village Green (311 E 11) is almost complete. Too bad that at $1,200 per sq ft and $1,200 maintenance, it's totally overpriced.

http://curbed.com/archives/2009/11/03/construction_watch_village_green_goes_full_frontal.php

https://www.flagstar.com/properties.html

http://www.thefreeforeclosurelist.com/Foreclosures_bank_owned_reo_properties.html

So do we think that Village Green is really getting $1200/sf in this market?

little update???
anyone?

I have friends who just bought in the Village Green, and it is almost all in contract now. Much of the activity seemed to happen in the last 2 months.