Broker question - protocol

Forget this. Sounds like your 'acquaintance' is taking advantage of you. If he/his firm is doing nothing, yet you feel obligated to sign in under his name at OHs that you've found on your own, that's BS.

Drop him. Tell him what you've outlined above. You can say this doesn't seem like the right fit (no one can argue with that, if he hasn't been able to bring anything to the table so far) and that you're planning to expand your search yourself.

By the way, if you're concerned about keeping things friendly, you can tell him you'd be happy to consider any appropriate listing he is able to find for you--tell him to contact you when/if he finds such a listing (make certain he knows your exact criteria).

This way, he can still make a commission if he finds you what you want. But he's not able to just weasel his way into a deal he had nothing to do with.

Along those lines, I had a slightly different question. There is a broker who has been helping us quite a bit but thanks to Streeteasy and other research, I often find listings first (some of which he eventually sends to us and others that he doesn't.) He would like us to sign up using his name at all open houses we attend. If we are comfortable with our own negotiating and fact finding skills, won't we have slightly more price flexibility if we put in an offer unrepresented? Of course we wouldn't do that on any listing he actually takes us to.

lo888--

If you've found a listing on your own, then you've found it on your own. A broker does not own you simply because he's 'working' with you. You are under no obligation to sign his name at any OH you've found on your own. Remember, a broker worth his salt will often be able to alert you to a desirable listing before it even hits the web. In that case, he's done you quite a service.

If, though (as is most often the case), the broker forwards you a listing weeks after it's already been online, and you're already aware of it through your own diligent searching, then no--you are NOT obligated to him if you decide to go forward without his help.

I think honestly and good will are key. If you truly find something on your own, then it's for you to decide how to proceed. If the broker first alerted you to the listing, then of course you should include him in if you decide to make a bid.

^^^ honesty, not honestly

I think you guys are very non-brokery people, but I honestly think you are not being very nice to the brokers you have been talking to.

At the beginning of the relationship, you should sit down and have a talk about what the relationship is. If it's a "you represent high-end listings and I can do better on my own" that should be expressed.

If it's a "we will use you if we find listings, but we don't want you on listings we find" -- that should be expressed too. (Some clients are happy to find listings on their own and then use their buyer's broker for comparative evaluation, co-op packages, negotiation etc.)

I think if you both expressed your views, most agents would then decline to take you as clients -- it's too much risk for too little reward -- but at least it would get to be their decision. Right now, I think you're both letting real estate agents think that you're more live as leads than you are -- I know you don't think much of real estate agents, but time an agent spends on one client or lead takes away from another.

By trying to be nice, you are ultimately just teasing the agents you are dealing with, and you are also robbing their other clients of time. Please be respectful, if not of the agents, then of those other clients.

It's okay to just say, "no thank you."

ali r.
{downtown broker}

"Please be respectful, if not of the agents, then of those other clients"

As long as those agents are "respectful" of the fact that their "clients" aren't willing to pay them a commission for doing nothing, if they find an apartment on their own.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I am a broker.
Searching listings is only one part of finding an apartment that you want to buy in NYC. Sometimes I don't send a listing to my buyers because I know that they will not meet the financial requirements of a specific building's Board. Sometimes it is because I have been working with my buyer long enough to know that they will not like the building and/or apartment for some reason (aspect, layout, etc).
Streeteasy is an excellent site, but it doesn't tell you about what debt to income ratio may be required by each building, nor what post-purchase liquidity you will be required to show in order to buy in that building. This is part of what a broker does for you.
Buyers do not pay for a broker's services, which should support a buyer from financial preparation, recommendations for best financing, attorneys, renovation ideas etc, through to the listings search, the negotiations, the completion of the purchase application and Board package and then all the way through to the closing.
If you have a good broker on your side, it can be an invaluable service. If your broker is not providing the service that you want, tell them frankly what you expect - your expectations may be unrealistic but they will have a better chance of being met if you are candid.
When you deal direct with the listing broker, that broker represents the seller's interests - not your interests as a buyer.
When I am a listing broker, I am happy to deal with a buyer who is represented by a broker as it generally means that their broker has financially pre-qualified them and knows that they will "fit" the requirements of the building. It is less work for me if the buyer has a good broker representing them as they will prepare the purchase application and board package.
All of that said, not all brokers are equal. You need to find a broker in whom you have confidence that they will give you sound advice, ensure that any purchase application you submit has the best chance of being approved, assist you throughout the process to make it as smooth as possible and in general, represent YOUR interests.
Good luck to all with your hunting.
Therese Bateman

"When I am a listing broker, I am happy to deal with a buyer who is represented by a broker."

Of course you are. With all due respect, the real gravy is in being a "listing" broker, since all you do is list the property, maybe cool your heels for a couple of hours on an occasional Sunday for an open house (NYC open house windows are absurdly narrow - they should be "open" ALL DAY), and sit back and wait for the offers to come rolling in before you split the fat commission check with the buyer's broker who did all the legwork.

Our broker is fully aware that we have worked with other brokers. Whenever I get a listing from more than one, I go see it to the first person who showed it to me. I have not actively sought out multiple brokers but sometimes when I inquire about an apartment, the broker who replies begins to send me similar listings.

I think assuming that we are not broker friendly people is just that - an assumption. That being said, we were stuck with a broker who made such a wonderful cock up of our offer last year that I much prefer to negotiate on my own behalf (we both do that for a living anyway) going forward. I guess I should be thankful that as a result of his delays, we were not in contract yet before the markets began to collapse and were able to pull out!

Btw, when you show a client an apartment but think another client would be very interested as well, do you hold back for days/weeks until your first client decides they are not interested or does exclusivity only work one way?

Ali - I think you are taking this personally. This particular agent is not doing a think and doesn;t appear to want to. Why? What the OP wrote:

1. offered to help us in our apt search.
2. their brokerage has little to no listings in our price ranges/geographic areas.
3. they performed very very little in terms of searching for properties for us, mainly we have to find the listings ourselves and then ask them to contact the listing broker for us (or list the acquaintance at the open house).

This is a lazy broker trying to suck a fee out of everybody else's efforts. Unfortunately, too many like this in NYC. You are the exception Ali, not the rule. This broker has earned nothing and that's exactly what they should get.

>>I honestly think you are not being very nice to the brokers you have been talking to.<<

This isn't a question of being 'nice', it's a question of doing business. A broker who doing business for you (ie: pulling comps, vetting listings and presenting you with those that match your criteria and then helping you though the bidding/negotiation process) deserves to be properly compensated for his services.

A broker who sits back and lets you bring listings to him and then expects you to sign his name at every open house you happen to walk into (as in the OP's description) is NOT doing business for you, he's just trying to insert himself into a deal.

lo888's recent post is right on the mark. Most buyers get inundated with emails from brokers they've either met or spoken to when responding to ads. There's nothing wrong with brokers doing this, but they cannot cry foul if the buyer happens to be receiving listings from other brokers as well, nor should they expect disclosure on that.

As lo888 points out, it is often the case that several brokers will forward the same listing. I adopt a similar tact--if interested in the listing I will arrange to see it through the first broker who alerted me to it. The others get a polite 'thanks, but I've already seen/been made aware of this with another broker'. No further explanation is necessary.

A few things -
1. thank you to everyone for your comments.

2. front_porch & tbateman -- We are actually broker neutral and are NOT looking to be anything less than up-and-up in our dealings. I have long appreciated your insights, front_porch, here on this board and I want to assure you that I'm admantly not an anti-broker perso. I did not seek out the broker I am referring to, they approached me, we discussed what we are looking for (our financial situation and our desired neighborhood, size and budget), they sent us some listings in the first 4 weeks we worked with them -- during which we fine-tuned what we were looking for and were open about it with the broker, they openly stated that in entire areas we were looking in they had no listings and knew nothing about those neighborhoods as they had never worked there or indeed even been there, and in others had very few listings (and did emphatically not work in our price range normally). Regardless they indicated that they would be happy to set up appointments for us and 'lead' us thru the bidding and buying process. Since the original listings in the first 4 weeks (which was over 11 months ago) they have not sent us a single listing. And have only been in touch to say simply that if "you find something you like, you can put my name down".

It seems reasonable to me that at this point if they do not have any knowledge in the neighborhoods we are looking in, also have nearly zero listings in our price range in any neighborhoods, have not sent us any listings after the first 4 weeks -- and we're finding that most listings in areas we like are held by mom and pop outfits who know their neighborhoods really well (and who handle most of the non-luxury buildings in the boros) -- well perhaps this original acquaintance who approached us to help is not a good fit. We also never signed an agreement.

Just looking for some insights here. Are we wrong in thinking that perhaps after this long of a search, with our criteria and budget, we might be better served by going this alone or with a more local broker?

3. as for lo888 -- your point about do brokers only present an apt to one client and then only present it to others if the first turns it down is interesting, and I had never considered it. We too have often had random brokers email us listings after we went to an OH (and put down "our" broker's name).

Thanks again!

also I would figure brokers would normally offer us comps, info on neighborhoods, insight into particular buildings and such -- which was obviously not something the person in question offered us.

I am mistaken?

one more clarification: our 'broker' is not actually a licensed broker, but rather works for a licensed broker. I don't even know what that means.

with all due respect to ali and a few other brokers on this board....

too many brokers for too many years doing too little (or nothing) and making too much = open season on all brokers. broker business does not want to self police; business appears too small to attract attention of politicans looking to make a name for themselves so everyone loses. welcome to america.

Although I agree that too many brokers in recent years have become used to doing very little work for a lot of money, I do think that most people on this site refuse to acknowledge the "risk factor' of being a buyer's broker: yeah, he/she made $20,000 on a deal where you only worked 10 hours (yeah, 10 hours: even if you did nothing to find the apartment there's at least that much time still to be spent on the rest of the deal, and I'm paring it down to about the least it could possibly be). but what about the 20 customers they spent 20 hours each on and made zero? people here seem to think that part is fine, and are not willing to AVERAGE (hehehe, sometimes I like the word0 the $ made over all the hours a broker spends: soliciting listings (mailings, networking, etc), doing searches, setting up appointments, showing, etc.

It seems there's only an accounting for hours where a deal is done, and then the $/hr seems "ludicrously high for the work they do". And if a deal isn't done, it's ok that the $ earned is zero without any thought that part of the reason while the $/hr is so high when a deal is done is that there is a risk premium involved.

you are correct but i think the problem is that as an experienced broker knowledgable about real estate it is unlikely that you have had the kinds of horrible experiences that many if not most of us here have had with some brokers. it is not right to assume that because x% (and X is a large number) of brokers are lying scum that all brokers are but some of my own experiences have been so over the top vile that it is very, very difficult not to generalize.

sorry, but that's the truth of the matter.

This is something new we are offering. We are rebating 1/3 of our commission to any buyer we represent.
If you are someone who prefers to do the majority of work and just wants an experienced opinion, help negotiating with sell-side,an evaluation of properties you are considering buying, board package preparation etc...we offer up to an 80% commission rebate.

we also will be offering flat fee consultations for both buyers/sellers(I have done several of these over the last 6 months).

I think in many cases you will do better with utilizing a rebate to lower your overall cost than counting on shaving off points because you are not using a broker. If the seller has broker representation, their broker is going to be more concerned with their "cut" than lowering the price because you don't have a broker. We can still negotiate hard for the best price and then rebate you to further lower your all in cost.

Of course negotiating directly with the owner may indeed save you most overall, but this scenario is rare in Manhattan.

We are just rolling this out and more information will be available on our website soon. For those who wonder about the legality of this, please refer to the DOJ website under "discount brokers", they actually champion this as it greatly benefits the consumer.

cc; you haven't been reading my posts: I guarantee I hate brokers more than most others on the board do and it's exactly because I've had WAY more experience with them than most of you combined. However I think you overestimate the number/percent who are lying scum intentionally as opposed to merely ignorant and arrogant. And I'll bet if you really, really think about it, it's just that the one's you came across which were so horrendous just stuck out in your mind more and in reality the vast majority of brokers which you have come across you have no real opinion of (great or lousy) and that percentage which seems so large in your mind, if you actually had to go back and make a list of ALL BROKERS WHO YOU EVER CAME ACROSS, you couldn't come up with more than 10% who you could honestly say were lying scum.

"I think in many cases you will do better with utilizing a rebate to lower your overall cost than counting on shaving off points because you are not using a broker. If the seller has broker representation, their broker is going to be more concerned with their "cut" than lowering the price because you don't have a broker. We can still negotiate hard for the best price and then rebate you to further lower your all in cost.

Of course negotiating directly with the owner may indeed save you most overall, but this scenario is rare in Manhattan."

I very much concur: first of all, you really CAN'T count on negotiating "directly" with the seller because the VAST majority of them have their exclusive broker, so it's just a question if you talk to your broker or theirs. And it really is up to the broker to decide what to cut off of their agreed percentage: neither you as the buyer nor the seller has any ability to "tell" the broker to give you a break by taking less on their commission, whereas if you hire someone on the basis that theburkhardtgroup or others (including myself: while I haven't "taken buyers out" looking for apartments in quite a long time, I have represented buyers on various similar arrangements either hourly, a flat fee, etc. and in general I'm talking about fairly sophisticated Real Estate players who "needed" a broker less than most of those who don't think they need one, but were smart enough to know that they would do better overall with the help I gave them).

sometimes its hard to separate lying scum from ignorant, arrogant and useless. unfortunately, my most recent (and i think costly) experience involves someone who is a lying scum and arrogant and basically useless although i am not sure that he is actually ignorant.

i did however have a great experience about 8 yrs ago when we sold our previous property in dutchess county. we had a terrific broker who ended up getting a sale for us although at a price that i pretty much rammed down her throat. she didn't think it was going to happen but worked hard for it and we got lucky with our timing.

the more i think about it, the more i would tend to agree with your original point---the number of places that we've been shown over the years that had no resemblance whatsoever to what was originally discussed or advertised is mind boggling. but more likely from stupidity that outright lying, i guess.

but, nevertheless, it becomes needlessly discouraging and creates lifelong resentment.

Hey, have some compassion: I have to work with them all day every day. How do you think I feel? ;)

seems like you've found a way to keep it all in perspective...always nice to find a fellow insomniac. plus, sounds like you've found a way to use their stupidity to your advantage. that's gotta feel good.

theburkhardtgroup, 30yrs_RE_20_in_REO & columbiacounty: -- Burkhardt, your business arrangement sounds like it might be very appropriate for many people. good luck with it. However you seem to be really geared towards 1) Manhattan market, 2) higher-end market. Neither of which applies to me.

I don't doubt that brokers can be helpful! I'm curious what your specific comments would be to my, and lo888's particular situations.

Also, to the commenters here -- how does my and lo888's situations compare with this thread: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/11886-am-i-being-unethical

Related thread to my original posting here -- http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/11913-how-does-mls-work-do-brokers-in-manhattan-list-on-it-or-have-access-to-any-mls-listings