Bedbugs in building

My building had bed bugs but they never reached the upper floors where I live. I am far from an expert on this, but it does not seem like the kind of problem that should discourage your purchase. Maybe your atty should ask for a rep from the sellers that there are no bedbugs in the unit.

Good on your attorney for uncovering this. To me, it's serious. I would feel compelled to learn more about how bedbugs spread in a building. Is it common for them to spread to the other apartment by floor or by track (all the A line apartments have them)? Do carpeted hallways make a difference in how they spread (if this building has carpeted hallways)? Will you be using shared laundry facilities? You know, learn more about them and ask many questions to determine what affect it'll have on you and your family. Plus how does the extermination affect folks not in apartments with bedbugs? Does it smell? Do you have to leave for a day?

I hate bugs and vermin, cannot live with them obviously in my presence, so this would be of great concern to me.

Thanks a lot for your comments. It is of great concern to us. We are trying to get more answers from the management company before we make our final decision. The hallways are not carpeted, but there is a shared laundry facility. We are not sure if they will actually disclose the units affected, but that would certainly be a crucial piece of information. I doubt the seller will agree to a full rep, more something along the lines "we are not aware that there are any". Allegedly they did not have them in the unit.

Thanks a lot!

I always check this site before I look at an apartment.

http://bedbugregistry.com/

Good luck!

Bedbugs pose no health threats whatsoever.

alanhart r u kidding?! They bite and leave welts. Once at a hotel I found 30 of them swarming under my daughter's pillow. Still have flashbacks.

Lots of bugs bite and leave welts. Unlike flies, spiders, roaches and mosquitoes, bedbugs don't transmit diseases from one person to another.

Alanhart, the fact they spread no diseases does not prevent them from causing nasty allergic reactions.
ChrisT, thanks for the link-unfortunately it's mostly renters that report the problem, it seems owners shy away from reporting, probably for fear of hurting their asset values.

If your friends/family find out, they will be less inclined to visit. Bed bugs are known to hitch a ride on other people in the house and spread around from there. Even if you find a non bedbug place, there's no guarantee they wont be any in the future so on a purchase decision it shouldn't be a deal-breaker

As someone who has experienced bedbugs, it is a living hell and should be a deal breaker if they haven't addressed the problem - ask what methods they took to eradicate them. Fumigating is not effective - it does not kill eggs and bedbugs can live 12-18 months without feeding. The exterminator should have sprayed the infested apartments, and surrounding apartments, with a residual pesticide.

And no, you can't catch any diseases, but you will experience a reflexive waking from sleep every time your foot itches, paranoia, and throwing out thousands of dollars of furniture/clothing/etc.

Yes, bedbugs can be hellacious & not something to be taken lightly. I would certainly recommend your becoming an expert on them BEFORE you invest in this property.

If you love the apartment, I would hire a company that has a dog that can smell the bugs (a friend of mine had this happen in her building). Have them go over the place and the halls and elevators and laundry room and make sure the problem has been taken care of.

ValB, that's a very good tip plus good to hear from others who have lived with them. Doesn't sound fun.

Found out more on the issue-it seems 30 units (out of ~90) were suspect of having them in January/February (they brought in the dog, otherwise there was only 1 actual complaint). It seems exterminators went 3 times into these apartments, but not in every single apartment. Allegedly, no one has complained since then.

Given the high percentage of units involved and how recently this all happened, I think we may have ourselves a dealbreaker.

Another issue raised is the responsibility of seller/broker to inform the buyer of the issue. It appears the seller is not obligated to inform the buyer unless directly asked. The broker, however, is obligated to if they are aware of the issue. The seller, on their end, is not obligated to inform the broker. The seller's broker claims no prior knowledge of the issue. I find this hard to believe since the apartment has been on the market since before January.
In any case, definitely worth inquiring early on before incurring all the legal expenses of negotiating a contract (though props to our attorney for uncovering this-worth every penny!).

Thanks everyone for your comments!

A guy who worked with me had a bed bug problem in a rental. No matter what they did the bldg couldn't get rid of them. It was hell. He had to move. I would NEVER think of moving into a building that had a bb problem.

We have friends who believe they got them from the moving company. Used the dog to get rid of them. Big hassle. Give some thought to wrapping your matttesses and furniture in plastic when moving. This is an epidemic.

We decided to walk.
Disappointing but pales in comparison with the potential hassle...

This is an excellent argument for why co-op and condo boards should deal aggressively with bedbugs, even though it's technically the owner's problem if bedbugs are found in only one apartment.

There's a great NY Law Journal piece linked at the end of a post we did a couple of weeks ago about building-wide bedbug infestations (http://www.brickunderground.com/blog/2009/06/your_neighbors_bedbugs) that fully explains the legalities involved, including the fact that sellers don't have an obligation to disclose infestations--basically, the doctrine of caveat emptor applies to co-ops and condos, unlike a house, where the seller is legally obliged to tell all.

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manhattanfox, I'm curious - how did you get this info?

where was the apartment?

Found this. Very informative. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/bedbugs/#manage

Good to walk away...30/90 is really a massive infestation and will reach 100% eventually if the whole building isn't bombed for bed bugs.
We also discovered a place with 2 units out of 175 with bed bugs. Co-op took care of it and no problems. Still waiting to see if we buy (new problem is asbestos ceiling---discussed in another thread).

Bedbugs - there goes your property values! Bye bye ......

khd, allegedly only 2 apartments had actual sightings of bedbugs but the dog barked infront of 30 units-so massive indeed. The entire building was supposed to be fumigated but 10 apartments (including the one we were looking at) are yet to be scheduled for fumigation. We also found the fact that there was no ongoing monitoring since January/February very disconcerning. One would think the co-op should bring the dog once a month until fully cleared. The eggs can survive up to a year and only 5 months have passed since the initial fumigation. Good luck with your apartment!

drdrd, couldn't agree more, it'd be interesting to see what sort of discount a bedbug infestation would cause. I am hesitant to name the address-too much responsibility given how harmful such stigma could be to property values in the building, especially if they eventually manage the problem.

No need to disclose the address on this board, but would be a good idea to file a report in that bedbug site someone linked above. That's a helpful resource.

ananaj, for peace of mind, it sounds like the best decision. best of luck to you on your hunt; I'm sure you'll find your future home soon enough.

I am impressed with the amount of information your lawyer got, and that there was specific information like that available to you. That's the way it should be, but not sure always is.

emmapup - any potential purchaser has the right to review board minutes, which include this sort of information. There's nothing to be impressed with here. But yes, it is very good that OP's attorney was diligent in his due diligence.

Indeed, we uncovered the details from speaking with the management company directly (which is much better than talking to the Board given how vested they are as owners). The attorney did, however, have this as part of his questionnaire which apparently is not always the case.

I'm curious, ananaj. Did the seller offer to go down in price when you told them you were walking away because of the bug situation?

ValB, not really-the seller's broker went out of her way to try and persuade us that "This is NY, you have all sorts of vermin, it's a manageable situation". Of course, comparing a cockroach to a bloodsucking bedbug is simply ridiculous-I'd take a mouse over something as creepy as bedbugs any day (or night;))!
But I guess, she was doing her job.
I just feel that had this been brought up early on and in good faith maybe we would have somehow got comfortable (although given the scale, probably not). But stumbling upon it so late in the process just left a bad taste. Who knows what else is wrong with this place/building?!

Thanks for the scoop. The way they handled it does sound dodgy. I would have gotten out too.

ananaj -- I don't think you could ever get comfortable with the idea, even if brought up earlier. Hmmm, lets plunck down all our savings into a (potentially) bed bug infested apartment. Only in nyc would people of means even be having this conversation. And as another poster said, imagine if you had to resell.

There are plenty of other apts out there waiting for a new owner.

Ananaj, I had bedbugs and it was a nightmare. The apartment had to be sprayed with a very toxic chemical, forcing me to stay in a hotel THREE TIMES. It took months to get rid of them. It's now two years later and I'm still upset and constantly checking under the mattress. They spread like wildfire and reproduce at an astounding rate. You were very smart to pass on the apartment.
The broker who said "it's a manageable situation" is a snake. It is NOT a little problem.

Michael427-sounds horrid! We had a bug scare 2 years ago, only it was an exotic bug brought from a Caribbean vacation-it was a pretty rough experience-cleaned the place many times, drycleaned all my clothes and became paranoid about bugs:( Cannot imagine having to go through a similar experience, especially over many months.

Hope you never have to encounter this nightmare again!

Thanks, ananaj, please make sure you never buy into an infested building. No matter how much you like the apartment, if another one in the building is infested, there are probably several apartments in the building that have them, they spread like crazy, through cracks in the floor. We had to caulk all our baseboards.
Also, the special spray they use is so toxic that the exterminator cannot use it unless he actually sees a bedbug, dead or alive.
I'm very happy you backed out of the deal!

annaj, it sounds like your attorney was diligent. Would you mind sharing his info offline?

i just pasted the bedbugregistry.com info so that people will see this thread if searching for an apartment

The apartment I was interested in is on that list. So disappointed! Was wondering why so many units were up for sale in recent months.

This registry is a little suspect since it seems anyone can defame a particular address or building with the thought of lowering property values, etc.

UWSfan - sure, I can forward you the contact info of our attorney. Let me know where and I'll e-mail it.

First, manhattanfox - this list shouldn't be posted for several reasons - just because you pulled it off a bedbugregisrty site, doesn't mean it's accurate. You should cease from posting this list considering the repercussions it has on people's perception and property values especially when the source and circumstances cannot be verified or explained....not a very responsible thing to do.

Second, I know several people (myself included) who live in wonderful co-op buildings and have gone through this process. If a dog 'hits' on an apartment there is ABSOLUTELY NO GUARANTEE that there is a live bedbug, infestation or threat thereof. If this building performed a thorough search and hired dogs to sniff out every apartment as a preventative measure, it certainly is no surprise that such a large number showed some sort of trace. In fact, it seems that they were ahead of the curve in twarting what could (or might not have been) a potential issue. I'd ask how many apartments saw a live bedbug. This bedbug thing is a huge hype and just like any other so-called epidemic, based on pure media hype with the end result being scared, frustrated residents and people walking away from deals for no good reason. Have you talked directly with any residents of the building? Try hanging out by the front door for a while and ask the first 5 or 10 people who enter what the real story is. Tell them which apartment you're interested in and ask them their experience..I think you'd be surprised that your attorney and even the mananagement company may not have the real dirt.

As a follow-up, as I read backwards there's a ton of bad information in the posts here. As a quasi-bedbug expert, I've had the misfortune of having spoken to, interviwed, probed, and questioned other REAL experts and found that even those exterminators and on-line resources tell conflicting stories. So just beware of what you choose to believe.

it is the same link posted two posts ahead of mine... bu ChrisT. any buyer can make their own determination of accuracy or relevance. Rest assured, your post above will be considered as part of the information flow. I never even heard of bed bug issues until a few years ago -- after having made two purchases. I am happy to learn that these sites exists so I can consider the factor.

ChrisT, don't be disappointed. You have no idea how much stress and money you saved yourself. (In my case, about $10,000 for hotel and new furniture. Luckily the co-op board picked up the tab for our exterminator, 3 visits. From what I understand, a really good bedbug spray is about $600 per visit). We had to get rid of a lot of our furniture (they were even in our sock drawer!) and we still feel panicky if we see a black dot on the mattress.

@mjatnyc
First, manhattanfox - this list shouldn't be posted for several reasons - just because you pulled it off a bedbugregisrty site, doesn't mean it's accurate. You should cease from posting this list considering the repercussions it has on people's perception and property values especially when the source and circumstances cannot be verified or explained....not a very responsible thing to do.

Why is sunshine bad?

ananaj - I just saw your post. My email is uwsfan@yahoo.com. Thanks!

Bedbugs are back in today's New York Times. As if the market needed to worry even more.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/realestate/23cov.html?hpw

Curious, if there are any type of insurance protection for this; home owners policy or rider or whatever or credit card perks (Black Card? j/k). Has anybody heard of one for bedbugs?

I'm sure there isn't any, but just curious. After all, NYC is a insurance "HQ" of sorts for the US.

I'm looking into the bed bug insurance question for my blog (BrickUnderground.com) - will post back here when I find out more. Just from surfing around the web, I'm thinking they're excluded along with other insect infestations.

Teri

thx bu - didn't think so, they probably would loose too much money, but then again....

Let's face it- bedbugs can be attributed at least in part because of the proliferation in many neighborhods of low-end hostel type hotels that cater to foreign tourist backpackers and other bottom feeders that stay at those dumps. And leave the places infested. Those breedomg ground hotels do not belong in residential neighborhoods. If this sounds insensitive, I don't care.

Never heard of bed-bug insurance. We own a 1 family home upstate and cannot get termite insurance, so it seems same holds true for bedbugs or other vermin.

"Never heard of bed-bug insurance. We own a 1 family home upstate and cannot get termite insurance, so it seems same holds true for bedbugs or other vermin."

you used to get termite insurance at some point and now don't?

great decision btw ananaj, my husband's boss is at a hotel as we speak cause of them (uws). if they don't let you sleep that rises stress levels, not good. our building had them about 2 years ago (they didn't showed up at home but they did in many apartments on our same floor...). one of the things that they asked everybody to do is not to get used furniture from anywhere.

Wow this thread made the NYT http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/realestate/23cov.html?_r=1

“I have yet to hear of a buyer going into the apartment for the preclosing walk-through and picking up the bedspreads and looking at the mattresses,” Mr. Shmulewitz said. “If they do, you’re going to have lots of deals not closing.”

It’s a matter of self-preservation, Mr. Sladkus said. “From my perspective as a board member, I absolutely wouldn’t want it out there that bedbugs are in my building.”

Hey Alanhart - so what are you a fcuking bed-bug lover now? You goddamn liberals crack me up. How would you feel if YOUR daughter came home dating a bed bug?

i would take roaches over bedbugs

I wonder if there is a market for, or a potential market for illegal DDT. DDT black market for bedbugs? Do they even make DDT anymore?

I remember reading about Bill Gates advocating for targeted and controlled and limited use of DDT in African huts around window and door openings to fight malaria and it was a huge success.

Too bad the same can't happen here with the same sort of ease of red tape to fight our problem, which is bedbugs.

no, chemicals are terrible for you. there has got to be a better solution. hopefully some innovative people will figure it before nyc turns into a giant roach motel

RE: Bed bug insurance I looked into this & posted it on the blog today...short answer is neither renter's nor homeowner's insurance covers bed bug infestations. Bed bugs are excluded under a standard clause about birds, vermin, insects etc. A slender exception: If someone sues you for medical expenses after being bitten at your home, that might be covered by your policy.

I also checked in with an accountant. Some property losses related to bed bug infestations may be deductible on your income taxes, but it's pretty limited. More details below:

http://www.brickunderground.com/blog/2009/09/bed_bug_insurance_apparently_not

anna,
thanks for your information. Is there any way that you can disclose the name of your attorney. He sounds great and we will be buying soon and need a good attorney.
Thanks.

Bedbugs have invaded the men's locker room at the Reebok Sports Club, and members of the pricey Columbus Avenue gym say they're up in arms. A source tells us he saw workers "emptying out lockers Wednesday," and added that the club was giving affected members gift certificates to smooth things over. But some aren't assuaged. "People are afraid," said the source. "They don't want to leave their clothes overnight anymore." He added he fears that fellow gym rats could take the bugs home with them. (Speaking of rats, Page Six reported that Reebok had one of those, too, in December -- although the club claimed it was a mouse.) A Reebok spokesperson confirmed the bedbug outbreak, and gave us a statement that the gym "immediately contacted professionals" who have "conducted a complete inspection of the club." Reebok couldn't confirm the gift-certificate giveaway, however. A source said members include Taye Diggs, Chris Cuomo, LA Reid and Ronn Torossian.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/bedbugs_on_the_treadmills_vwj856cUV86g504cvqFt5K#ixzz1J2xJvxMK

200 E 87th Street had bedbugs, as stated above, it looks like they spread vertically up a line of apartments. We never had it before but judging from the way silverfish and huge water-bugs wander into the apartment, I'm sure a bedbug can easily get into the apartment.