Paint Finish?

the current flat and eggshell finishes from benjamin more are washable as well. for bathrooms, there is special paint that can be mixed to any color.

What is condition of your walls? If they are reasonably ok--not perfect but not a mess--then I prefer eggshell. I find flat to be too chalky for me and I loathe it if I touch it. Eggshell has just a touch of sheen that won't highlight small flaws but which will provide just a touch of life to the color and walls and reflect light just a tad. If the walls really are not great, should have been skim coated but weren't, and have fairly visible patches and the like, then you have no choice but to go with flat/matte. Satin is a notch above eggshell and too much sheen for most rooms IMO. If you seek to achieve a particular effect and more sheen is what you seek, then satin is okay without going over the top. But for satin you better have skim coated gorgeous walls.

Bathrooms and kitchen and mouldings get satin, though. You could go with semi-gloss in kitchen or bath, but personally I think satin is enough sheen, highly scrubbable, and by selecting the same sheen as mouldings you get to keep the number of paints limited. Adding semi-gloss is just another type of paint and it can all get confusing.

This is all coming from a 40-something guy who lives with another guy, and we are both pretty gentle on our surroundings. For living with kids who are going to rub their hands on everything and smash their toys into the walls every other minute, all I can suggest is exploring orphanages so you can get the paints you really want without worrying about scrubbing them.

I painted all the walls Eggshell - it is a good compromise, as KW said.

Satin in bathrooms.

ahh, that made me belly laugh. no peas on the walls at your house, huh? ;)

walls are in surprisingly good condition for a prewar apt that hasn't been skim coated.

bleck. satin in bathrooms, huh? why? does it hold up to moisture better?

Satin does not give you shine. "High Gloss" gives you the shine (which is what most painters recommend for baseboards, doors, and other woodwork. I chose eggshell for the ceilings, satin for all the walls, high gloss for the woodwork. Despite what Benjamin Moore says about the "washability" of eggshell, don't believe it at all. Eggshell can withstand a few gentle wipes from a damp cloth, but if you need to actually scrub a mark off the wall, the paint will come right off with it. Satin stands up much better, and is almost SCRUBBABLE (almost).

"satin in bathrooms, huh? why? does it hold up to moisture better?"

Yes.

In general, the "shinier" the paint is, the less dirty it gets and the easier to clean it is because it is less porous. So, in general, you want to use at least satin to eggshell in kitchens and baths, and eggshell to gloss on mouldings. Ceilings are most often painted flat because people find reflections off the ceiling to look "funny". The amount of gloss for walls depends on 3 things: how much energy you are willing to spend keeping them clean, what look you like, and how flat your walls are. The higher the sheen, the more imperfections show up (listen to kyle's more in depth explanation).

The one thing I will disagree with kyle on is that high gloss on mouldings is the way to go if you can get away with it. mouldings are supposed to be decorative and the high sheen brings out the detail much more.

30yrs, you've mixed up the spectrum of gloss!

It goes flat, eggshell, satin, high gloss.

Also high gloss on the woodwork (particularly doorways) is especially essential because that's what's most likely to be touched -- quite often by grubby fingers.

uwsmom - did you know that there is magnetic paint that comes in different types of finishes. I first saw it in a friend's house who had a stainless fridge but wanted to be able to hang up her kid's artwork in the kitchen. When I get a place I hope to make a little section in the kids room where they can play with magnets on the wall. :)

"Magnetic paint" sounds like a great idea, but in execution it's not. Magnets leave marks all over the walls. Unless the kids are REALLLLLY careful with the magnets (which of course they won't be), within a month your walls will look like graffiti.

Let's clarify some things. High gloss is spectacularly shiny and reflective and looks permanently wet. It can work on mouldings and doors, but it is MAJOR shiny. It is not the only choice of decorators and interior designers for mouldings. Satin and semi-gloss work just fine if that is more the look you want. Just because a moulding is decorative doesn't mean it should stand out as much as possible. The only rule of thumb is that in most cases mouldings should be at least if not more shiny than the walls.

For bathrooms, you need more sheen due to moisture. Shinier paints will repel water slightly better. Also, in small space of bathroom, the reflective sheen of satin or semi-gloss is quite effective at lighting up the area and producing a pleasing overall result.

TESTS! Do TESTS! Paint a rough area of wall with flat/eggshell/satin and then see how each section appears at different times of day. In this manner I realized eggshell would be just fine on my walls and that areas the contractor was concerned about (he wanted me to do flat finish) didn't bother me at all.

As for scrubbing peas? I demure to my brother and sister posters on here who have spawned and better understand the measures needed to remedy the chronic flow of damages inflicted on innocent apartment walls by those offspring which have not been sold off or kept sufficiently bound.

what a funny thread.
When I gutted my last place my sister brought her three kids (3,5,7) over and within 20 minutes I was screaming at my sister "OMG, I didn't realize the visit would require a paint job!"...

fingerprints EVERYWHERE on my flat light yellow painted walls, glass cabinets, mahogany furniture...

I was thrilled when they left and I could return things to museum quality condidtion....

If you use an oil based semi gloss on the window ledges they help wipe of the black nyc window soot more easily.

Good luck.

pleasant diversion...tnx uws mom.

Anything beyond flat is difficult to touch-up without redoing the entire wall. With kids I find the ability to quickly touch up the paint from time to time essential to keeping things looking semi presentable.

ulti matte from Benjamin Moore is a scrubbable flat finish that can also be touched up easily and it doesn't have the chalkiness that Kyle was talking about.

The true dilemma for me here is my frugality. I want to paint the maid's room and maid's bath the same color w/ the hope of giving the closet, i mean, "guest suite" a more spacious appearance (maid's room actually has a full bath). I suppose I need to decide which is the worse offense: satin in a bedroom or eggshell in a bath. Or, I could stop being so cheap and buy the same color in two different finishes. That step may require counseling, in which case it could be very costly.

Hi uwsmom - if you are concerned about the price, but not so much the color have you considered "Oops" paint from Lowes or Home depot? They are the customer returns and sell for $5 a gall IIRC. You could probably do the bathroom using a gallon since they usually don't have more than a gallon lying around.

The cost difference will be about $0-$50 since the bathroom should require more than one gallon to cover. If you don't have any left over from bedroom, then cost of getting right sheen for bath will be $0. If you have a 1/2 gallon left over from bedroom, you'd still need to buy a gallon for the bath so it still isn't costing anything. If you have nearly a full gallon left over from bedroom, then yes it will cost one extra can to do it all correctly.

I'd wait to paint the closet and use whatever is left over from bed or bath or both since who cares if the back wall of closet is different sheen than sides.

". It is not the only choice of decorators and interior designers for mouldings. Satin and semi-gloss work just fine if that is more the look you want. Just because a moulding is decorative doesn't mean it should stand out as much as possible. The only rule of thumb is that in most cases mouldings should be at least if not more shiny than the walls."

I guess I'm going to have to start posting whether statements are "personal preference" or "professional opinion" on certain issues. In this particular case, my post was what *I* like, and would tell others to think about, not hard and fast rules or "generally accepted standards and practices". However, I do think you'd be surprised how, after a fairly short period of time, even gloss is ends up not being so "major" shiny in an apartment with a decent amount of decorative mouldings and full of furniture. And while I again gerenallyh agree with kyle, I do find the statements "Just because a moulding is decorative doesn't mean it should stand out as much as possible." and " The only rule of thumb is that in most cases mouldings should be at least if not more shiny than the walls." *slightly* at odds with eachother.

uws mom, in terms of saving $, and if you are planning to go with benjamin moore, sign up for club pro @ janovic. you get a $20 coupon when you join to use on paint, then a $20 coupon every 2 months. So if you combine them both, you can save $40 now.

http://janovic.com/clubpro/

They have other specials as well.

http://janovic.com/page/37/

:)

KW - maid's room = closet. There is a closet in the room but I don't plan on wasting any paint on it.

Thanks Jess.

If you want it to seem bigger, paint the ceiling darker than the walls and don't go too shiny! Mouldings 1 step shinier than walls and 1 step darker on the card. (Then you can use the moulding paint for the bath)

"If you want it to seem bigger, paint the ceiling darker than the walls "

Hmm... never heard that before; I think I've always seen the opposite. Anyone else tried this?

It doesn't have to be a lot darker -- a nice chino-pants color looks good if you have wood floors. It won't read as 'tan' just as 'farther away.'

CEILINGS: be careful. If you paint them white ("Simply White" from BM is a slightly warm; "Super White" is cooler...those are my two general favorites but there are about two dozen others if you want to really make yourself crazy), you'll probably never have to paint them again. If you get tricky and paint them a color or variant of the walls, in 5-10 years when you repaint, you'll have to include the ceilings in all likelihood. Colored ceilings also go in and out of vogue--the early 90's were big on colored ceilings; then around 2000 they were out of fashion in most circles, now maybe edging in again (recessions tend to bring out desires for more color in our lives). Paint them white and you'll never look at them and hate them or have to deal with them again. That's my two cents.

30yrs: I should have said my posts are obviously just my opinion and view of design norms. I'm certainly just one voice of many. My point on sheen was mouldings should stand out slightly from walls (one step up, at least) but I think all out high gloss is distracting and a major statement that most people may not intend to make. I didn't mean to say high gloss is "wrong"--only that it is an extreme option that one should carefully consider and not think is standard.

"CEILINGS: be careful. If you paint them white ("Simply White" from BM is a slightly warm; "Super White" is cooler...those are my two general favorites but there are about two dozen others if you want to really make yourself crazy), you'll probably never have to paint them again."

Huh? Of course you'll want to paint them again -- they don't stay fresh white forever. Assuming no smokers, no incense, and light to moderate candle burning, they will be needing fresh paint within 7-8 years.

kyle - I think we're probably just trying too hard not to argue ;).

I think a lot of it is in my taste: since I almost always try to make a statement with mouldings (hey, I have mouldings on the INDSIDE of my closet door; I think I've got about 25 different profiles of moulding in my apartment.) , the high gloss is what works best. Also, since I tend to be fairly meticulous about installing them, they can "deal" with being high gloss. lastly, can you think of an item which is more likely to get fingerprints on it? That's one of the biggest reasons for gloss: it's so much easier to clean up than even eggshell.

As far as ceilings go, I can't remember the last time I used anything other than "designer white" or what I usually refer to is "totally untinted" absolute white (in flat) in a living area. In kitchens and baths I tend to use the same paint walls and ceiling.

usw mom, just got a behr promotion in my inbox if you are leaning towards home depot.

http://www.behr.com/Behr/home#channel=INSPIRATION;view=6;vgnextoid=ec3239c981eae110VgnVCM100000166310acRCRD

I'm big fan of keep it simple and stupid (KISS). Flat white (BM "white") on all ceilings, same color in every bedroom (creme fraiche, a very light yellow), silvery blue or summer blue in all bathrooms. The same "white" but semi-gloss on all mouldings, window frames, etc.

Now that one kid is older and exhibiting color preferences, I've started to paint her room pink. My painter is a great handyman, not so great painter. But because he charges so little (200/day and he's fast), I'm okay paying more for paints and he's happy to touch up spots when I complain afterwards...

I'm going to call BS on the idea that paint is truly washable ever. We have a small working kitchenette in the studio -- without a backsplash -- and a couple of Hanukkahs and a weekly spaghetti sauce have really done a number on it.

It's painted in Benjamin Moore semi-gloss. If you wash it very gently, the paint "burnishes" -- i.e. the finish changes, and the latke/tomato/whatever detritus doesn't necessarily come off. If you scrub a little harder, the paint comes off and has to be touched up.

Go for eggshell or satin walls, flat ceilings, and semigloss or satin trim/kitchens/baths, but keep a little bit of paint for touch-ups, and resign yourself to the idea that life is going to ding up your paint job.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

a note on Behr paints -- they aren't as easy to work with. Would strongly recommend another brand.

FP: very true. Fingermarks get cleaned periodically around here and the paint surface is never perfect afterwards.

10023 - how much can he get done in a day and is he looking for more work ;)

I just had the argument with my mom about painting all the baths the same color. She didn't like the idea. I do. searching for the perfect warm tone of green/blue/grey...

so, i was just at the apt today and looks like everything except the kitchen is ivory (wall and moldings). this is a rental so i'm not really invested in it looking perfect at all, but I'm wondering if it's going to look weird to leave the trim ivory (rather than painting it all white). leaning towards a warm, neutral tan/beige for LR/DR/Kithcn and that perfect color for baths. will likely bite the bullet and get correct finish for each room :)

UWSmom - he is incredibly efficient and doesn't waste time. Very prompt as well. You may want to tell him to slow down, and pay more attention to detail if you are very picky about painting. I'll send you his contact info.

I love summer blue & silvery blue from BM in white subway tile bathrooms. If you like green there's a lot of muted greens in Ralph Lauren Paints...

Also, Restoration Hardware has some nice sage-y colors.

great, thanks!

uwsmom dot streeteasy at gmail.com

tandare, can you be more specific about what's wrong with Behr paints? I've always used Benjamin Moore because everyone says its the best, but sometimes feel stupid slavishly paying the premium without ever trying the cheaper brands...

"keep a little bit of paint for touch-ups"

EXCELLENT advice.

Before I moved into my current apartment, I had the entire place painted -- COLORS (I'm so done with white walls) -- and I bought six mason jars (for each paint color) for the painter to fill and seal before tossing the rest of the leftover paint out.

Now, rather than hanging onto big messy paint cans, I have six mason jars neatly stacked in a kitchen cabinet just in case. They've already come in handy!

mason jars - nice thought! Thanks Matt.

"I'm going to call BS on the idea that paint is truly washable ever."

Try high gloss on a very hard wood (like mahogany) and get back to me.

""keep a little bit of paint for touch-ups"

While a good idea, paint does not have a really long shelf life, and both the paint in the can and the paint on the walls will change over long time periods, so you may be disappointed at the not exact match. Another thing to do is keep a record book somewhere of EVERYTHING you put into the unit, right down to the model number of the bathroom faucet and the exact paint manufacturer and exact color card, etc. While paint batches are different, I've actually had instances where a new mix of a color came closer for a touch up than the 8 year old paint in the can I had saved.

While we're at it, if you use stone or tiles for anything, but extra of that and keep it around, too. They may stop making the tile you use, and tile color also can vary depending on the run/batch; and stone varies so much that you won't be able to find a good match (particularly for stuff like limestone). Thank god I've got a crawl space over my bath for stuff I want to store but almost never need to access: I've got some of just about every material I used tucked away.

"While a good idea, paint does not have a really long shelf life, and both the paint in the can and the paint on the walls will change over long time periods, so you may be disappointed at the not exact match. ... While paint batches are different, I've actually had instances where a new mix of a color came closer for a touch up than the 8 year old paint in the can I had saved."

Paint in a rubber-sealed glass jar can last indefinitely.

Eight years?? Who doesn't freshen up their apartments every three to five years??

Um, me. I've gone 18 years without repainting. It still looks fine. That every-three-years shtick is a relic of when NYC was sootier, people smoked indoors, etc. Then again, if you like to paint, no reason not to, either.

NWT -- good points, but even for non-smokers like myself in this day and age, unless you're really on top of weekly housecleaning, the walls start looking pretty dingy after 6 years or so.

NYCMatt, I agree with NWT that you are overstating the need to repaint. For people with kids or heavy use and limiting cleaning, then maybe the price they pay is painting "every three to five years." For those of us with regular housekeepers (even just twice a month), no kids, and gentle usage of an apartment, I think 5-10 years is quite reasonable for paint remaining acceptably fresh looking. Personally, I don't think I know anyone (I have mostly childless friends) who paints every 3-5 years and FWIW, most of my friends and family live in fairly upscale place and have fairly high standards in terms of how a place looks.

And while I have no idea about how long paint lasts in a jar, walls change so it matters little that the stuff in the jar doesn't. Touch ups in visible places after a couple of years will show and repainting the entire wall is more likely the solution. I keep a file with paint chips and a chart of what went where (name, number, sheen) and after the first year I just dump all the old paints. On the very rare occasion I'd need to do touch up, I prefer to just go buy a quart instead of storing 10 cans for years on end.

I'm not advocating saving 10 cans of paint. I suggested a small mason jar for each color to hang onto. It's a waste of money (not to mention environmentally irresponsible) to just throw out all the leftover paint and buy new paint when you need to do touch-ups.

"It's a waste of money (not to mention environmentally irresponsible) to just throw out all the leftover paint and buy new paint when you need to do touch-ups."

but it's not a waste of money and environmentally irresponsible to throw out two gallons and keep a quart? (assuming 3 or 4 different paints?).

Sorry, I forgot - 10 can s of paint. More like throw out 4 gallons.

"but it's not a waste of money and environmentally irresponsible to throw out two gallons and keep a quart? (assuming 3 or 4 different paints?)."

That's right. Keep a quart, and you don't have to buy ANOTHER quart when you need to do touchups.

Two thoughts:

1. Paints are formulated radically differently from how they were made a generation or so ago. Latex paints are basically rubber-based regardless of sheen. In the old days, glossier paints were oil-based and thus more water-resistant and washable. Now they're all wipe-able at least.

2. I find that a mild solution of dish soap, rinsed off afterwards, does the job without hurting the paint finish. Even on flat paint. Spray-on chemical cleaners not so much.

Excellent point alanhart. Since moving into my new place which has a lot of special-need finishes (marble, polished nickel, new paints, stainless) my cleaner of choice is an empty windex bottle filled with a half capful of Meyer's soap (I like the verbena scent) and water. It handles 95% of daily cleaning needs. Toughest stuff may still need Fantastic or the like, but I hardly ever use that stuff anymore.

Fantastik and Formula 409 and the like are the archnemeses of painted surfaces. I don't think they're fond of Windex either, and definitely not ammonia, which is tempting to use because it cuts grease/soot. Resist.

Oil-based paint is superior to latex on woodwork.

That said, I DO like to play with the Behr.com color viewer to preview photos of my rooms with different colors!

Thanks for all the input folks. Went w/ BM Natura - eggshell for all rooms except kitchen and baths (doing semi-gloss in those)

What do you guys think of the Mr. Clean Magic Eraser on walls (http://www.mrclean.com/en_US/magic-eraser.do)? A couple of my friends swear by it, but I am nervous about using it on the nice paint job in my apartment.