Sale at 310 West End Avenue #4B

don't get it price wise...remember 4A at 300 WEA which went for $3.4 million.

cc - thank you, very interesting comp - didn't know about that one - timing was tough on that estate sale - entering contract during the nuclear winter of january - also see an interesting story at 5a & b in that building, I guess we do not know whether they went together or separate and at what price.

Rotten layout. Teeny little kitchen that'd be appropriate for the two-bedroom it started out in, but not for a five-bedroom. Columns in the middle of the barn-like living-dining space. The two little dens would come in handy, to get away from all the kids bouncing around in the one big formless room. I'd say go for a seven or eight and have the kids share.

And how about spending a few minutes to color in the white walls and columns in the floorplan?

ezal: My first thots on seeing this listing were similar to yours - interesting, but at what price -

Then I did a little streeteasy snooping and came up with this -

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/103764-coop-310-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

and then from there, this -

http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/80/2420680.jpg

So here's what I think now - the same broker tried - and failed to get $3,005,000 for the same line apartment (two floors down) and - to be fair - needing the work done to make the combination.

Except that wen they combined the 4th floor, it looks to me like they did it in the most basic way imaginable. No kitchen renovations (I would obviously expand it into that "den") no central AC, which to me is important. And several other things. They knocked down some walls and then painted as far as I can tell, I'm guessing they didn't spend $250,000 on the combination.

So if 2nd floor wasn't worth $3mn in '07, then I don't think 4th floor plus 250,000 for work done is worth $4,150,000 in '09.

So Louise, if you're reading this, or if anyone who works with her or knows here is reading this, without having gone to the open house earlier today, I would offer you $2mn - sight unseen - for this apartment. After seeing it, and spending time with an architect/contractor, I might come up in price somewhat. But 2A wasn't priced right at $3mn - and I know that because it didn't sell as far as I can tell, and 4A is going to reach the same result priced above $4mn.

My .02 only but since you asked . . .

LP and NWT - I am glad I asked. Interestingly - the 4A/B owners did the exact combo imagined when 2A and B were on the market. Besides the wall work - the old kitchen was turned into a master bath (nicely done) and the old living room became the new mater bedroom. Agree on the analysis - although not sure that I agree that it's a sub-3mm apt.

ezal - I got to sub $3mn from the fact that the same opportunity - with whatever the renovations on 4 cost - failed to sell for $3mn in '07 - when the mkt, as a whole, was clearly somewhat higher than it is currently. As it sounds like you have seen 4A/B - if my estimate of $250K is to low for the work they did when they renovated, please can you use your own, and then if you're willing, compare it to the 2A/B situation that failed to sell in '07.

Or, perhaps another way to look at it is what would the sellers of 2A & 2B likely be asking for their apartments if they chose to put them back on the market today, in light of the fact that they had failed to sell them for $3mn in '07. I have to assume that if they were rational & serious sellers, they would accept that a market that had not been willing to pay them "X" in '07, would now likely be wiling to pay them even less than it would have paid them then, as the overall market around them had dropped.

Not trying to be argumentative here, since as others & myself have noted, in the end apartments are not like shares of stock, or even heads of cattle or barrels of oil. They are not fungible, and ultimately sell as individual events, and so perhaps this will turn out to sell for more than $3mn, but if it does, it will - at least in my opinion, present a data point which isn't along the path that 2A/B would suggest it should be.

The ask isn't all that bad, considering what else is out there with 4 or 5 bedrooms. Most are combos, many with the combining not yet done. A good comparison might be with http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/375948-coop-425-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york.

The 310WEA kitchen, the more I look at it, works. Perfect triangle work area. If you have to have a second cook underfoot, they can be off to the side doing grunt work on the peninsula.

4,150,000 compared to 2,695,000 and then maintenances of 4,400 compared to 3,876 are not particularly similar are they? I don't know either of these buildings, but assuming a consistent renovation budget I think you're talking about apartments with widely differing prices & costs of carry. I agree with ezal, and I think the thread in general that at a price 310 WEA is worth consideration to someone (like myself in full disclosure) looking for a large apartment on the UWS but count me out of the running for this one of the price tag starts with a $3.

"Good comparison" <> "similar". I was thinking in terms of the combo; e.g. both giving you a small kitchen and big master. The pricing speaks for itself.

Aaah - ok, point taken then.

This is an interesting comp too - ultimately went for $2.7mm. 4 full bedrooms, large kitch, decent sized maid's room - not a combo - in a top west end ave building, 490 west end ave. Went into contract post nuclear winter at the beginning of the bally-hooed shoots of spring. Convincing myself that maybe LP is correct and that this should start with a 2.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/377791-coop-490-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

Beautiful renovation, if the living room's representative, and was discussed here quite a bit. Funny, though, how the wall between bedroom and dining room was shifted. Sort of makes sense.

the price on this apartment is a joke. quite awkward combination. perhaps low 3s simply because of al those bedrooms, but could certainly go to 2s. either way i wouldn't buy it--it is and will always be ungainly. better by a smaller apartment with a graceful, rational layout.

At $2mn, or even perhaps $2.5mn, there would be enough money left over to create something lovely & graceful here. It has high enough ceilings, and looks like would have very good light. The current layout needs help, but that's what money is for. And the resulting apartment could be, if handled with vision & skill - in my opinion - as nice as, or nicer than, anything else on the mkt for $4mn or below. But it's offered at a price that imagines that such a successful renovation has already occurred, and of course, it has not.

"So here's what I think now - the same broker tried - and failed to get $3,005,000 for the same line apartment (two floors down) and - to be fair - needing the work done to make the combination."

generally speaking, already combined apartments, even if they need about the same amount of work dollars wise, go for less than existing combinations. It's similar to when apartments which are total wrecks go for less than apartment which aren't wrecks, but at the end of the day you end up re-doing everything anyway. As such, I'm not sure the non-sale proves that a combined 2nd floor wasn't worth that number.

note I'm not commenting on what the price of the current 4th floor should be, simply that you can't be quite as certain about the pricing of non-combined apartments when comping out a sale.

In addition, you never know why a non-combined unit doesn't sell: it may be that the units are owned by different parties and the broker has convinced the two to join forces and sell, and then there's some bump in the road along the way. So the sale doesn't get done for other reasons than the total price of the two.

Now, on a personal note taste wise, I hate the layout. It's way too "not-prewar": Candela would rip it to shreds in a critique. but that is just a personal taste thing and no one else should make their decisions based on what I like or don't like.

I'm with LP on this one, which will probably save me a Shackburger or two.